What if Kublai Khan's mongol invasions of Japan in either 1274 and 1281 weren't screwed over by a Typhoon and were successful in attacking the Japanese?
>>1361514
Kubilai was defeated in Burma, Vietnam and Indonesia without storms, so there's that.
>>1361718
But I'm pretty sure the Samurai that tried to fight them off barely survived their skirmish with Mongol invaders.
>>1361753
That was because silly nips were accustomed to dueling and calling out their opponents during war, not an all out melee free for all.
>>1361718
burma and vietnam did become tributary vassals despite their military successes though, the same may have happened with Japan. Though I have to say the third mongol-viet war is kind of unbelievable in how incredibly hard the mongols got fucked.
>>1361753
they were getting seriously BTFO in 1274 because there was no living samura who had experience fighting or commanding troops in large scale battles, by 1281 they had taken great efforts to set up coastal fortifications and its less clear if the invasion would have been successful
The Japanese would likely lose the 1st time and win the 2nd.
>>1361753
Actually, the samurai won most battles.
>>1361762
Isn't that just a myth, like the bamboo armor one?
>>1361514
the latest literature would suggest not, the Mongols never achieved better than mixed results, and failed to penetrate into the interior of Kyushu.
Must of the talk of divine wind winning the day is due to the superstitious and religious nature of Japanese at the time, who saw the battlefield as a place where gods and men interacted quite literally, and where Buddhist monks claimed to be able to influence battles with magic
>>1361778
For the most part, though it might have happened sometimes, and there is evidence of a tradition of "heroic" warriors going into the sengoku,
There would be no anime. Which is fucking terrible, are you kidding me?
>>1361778
At that point it was pretty much the case. The nobles would duel it out with bows, and either every time or a lot of the time, the non-nobles would hit each other in the head. More "classical" types of warfare were employed before, like during the Genpei War, but that happened a century before.
>>1361780
>Must of the talk of divine wind winning the day is due to the superstitious and religious nature of Japanese at the time
It actually postdates the Mongol invasions quite a bit. The divine wind is said to be a blessing brought on by the sacredness of the Emperor, something that discredited the warrior class (because Japan would pull through either way) as well as Buddhist monastics (monk magic was actually not merely claimed by certain monks -it was demanded of them as at that time Japan was still falling for the Buddhism is for the protection of the State meme). Even shortly after the invasion warriors were writing petitions documenting their contributions to ensure that the weather's effects were not exaggerated. No one was falling for the Kami Kaze meme, in fact the Shogun's government in place back then got into big trouble sometime later in the aftermath because they fucked up the redistribution of rewards and made a lot of people very unhappy.
>>1362006
my understanding is that gokenin were usually rewarded with redistributed land or expensive gifts But despite the massive costs of driving the mongols off, there was no land to redistribute and the shogunate could not adequately reward its retainers
Mongol armies wouldn't work in Japan.
Nothing but mountains and forests. So the horses and archers would be a disadvantage.
>>1362085
Pretty much, but also certain retainers got favorable treatment while others were basically told to fuck off. That really messed up the balance of what could be distributed and in what quantities. Plenty went into denbt, and after some time the happy merchants also found themselves keked.
>>1362188
then why were samurai traditionally horse archers?
>>1362188
Persia is like 90% mountain and the Mongols did just fine, no?
>it's another weather saved the day thread
You fucking idiots have literally no idea what you are talking about.
>>1361514
Weren't they BTFO'd by the Japanese when they managed to actually land troops?
Also, weren't they also shitty sailors and didn't know how to deal with normal sea conditions to begin with?
>>1361767
>burma and vietnam did become tributary vassals despite their military successes though, the same may have happened with Japan. Though I have to say the third mongol-viet war is kind of unbelievable in how incredibly hard the mongols got fucked.
Is Vietnam just uninvadable because of jungles and caves and shiet?
>>1363712
and apparently neither do you or you would educate us
>>1363989
>muh great weather theory
weather is just a product of the climatological conditions of the time, any other weather in the same place at the same time could have done the same thing
>>1364965
Kwarzmids, however the fuck it's spelled.
>>1361514
Nothing changes.
Mongol had already lost before typhoon.
>>1364981
>Kwarzmids, however the fuck it's spelled.
Aka the same state that let weather destroy their own forces while on a expedition to Baghdad. It was a failed state.
The mongols didn't conquer anyone worth their salt.
>>1365013
What about the Poles? They used to be one of the strongest European Kingdoms.
>>1365018
They didn't even manage it.
>The southern group of Mongol forces, under Nogai Khan, on December 24, 1287 besieged Kraków. The Mongols launched an unsuccessful assault on the fortified city, suffering heavy casualties and losing several of their leaders in the process.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Mongol_invasion_of_Poland
>They mongols could't conquer Islands.
>The mongols couldn't conquer Jungles
>The mongols coulndn't conquer even the weakest european kingdoms on land.
The only thing they could conquer were badly defended cities and villages on the steppes - like the Rus.
>>1363704
You can thank butthurt westaboos for the confusion about this one. The only 2 things that are mythical about bushido are:
a) that there was one single unified code they called "Bushido"
b) that everybody actually respected the warrior codes
Every warrior house or domain had their own codes of varying detail and about varying subjects, and certain common principles would appear in them. This isn't surprising at all because very soon after their inception samurai started forging alliances and bonds of honor, they naturally came up with a whole range of protocol that went with it. Later, especially from the end of the Sengoku era, these were examined philosophically and came to occupy a much more important place in the lives of warriors, at least ideologically.
As far as respecting such codes went, most of the time they respected (obviously) whatever pertained to the relations between master and servant. On whatever pertained to other subjects some did and most didn't (again, obviously. Warriors aren't the people you turn to in search of good hearts). Things like changing sides were seen as non-issues by some (whether they were perpetrators or outside parties) and condemned by others. These ideological conflicts have always been present in the history of Japan's samurai thinkers, even in the peaceful times many different ideas of the ideal warrior clashed.
>>1365018
Not at the time. They were fragmented in that period.
