>black africans never had advanced countries or empires!
When will this meme end?
There is more to Africa than the Semites and Arabs hugging the Mediterranean.
Always was more, always will be more. Nigeria will be a world power in like 50 years.
>>1354951
>When will this meme end?
Until /pol/ dies, which is never.
>>1354951
Those West African empire got rich due to Arab trade though
Hell even The Bantu states depended on Arab trade
Ethiopia is based though
>>1355002
>country depends on trade, so it doesn't count
Do you realize how stupid you look right now?
>>1355014
They either say that or any contact with non Africans.
>>1355018
You can use the same "argument" to invalidate all of Europe.
They traded with Arabs, thus they aren't real kingdoms or empires or such.
Romans traded with Persians, so the Roman Empire is a fraud.
Ridiculous. Of course the world was much less interconnected back then than it is now, but states still dealt with each other, either via arms or via diplomacy or via trade. No country exists in a vacuum. Even modern North Korea, which the rest of the world seems to have quarantined, has trade partners, and receives aid, and occasionally stirs diplomacy in Japan or China.
>>1354951
>Nigeria will be a world power in like 50 years.
t. Nairaland
not if Boko Haram and the Fulani have anything to say about it lmao
>>1355094
The oil industry is quite literally trying to pass a referendum to throw the Boku Haram north out of the country and move the border.
They are saying its worth losing clay as long as this civil war situation is resolved.
>>1355094
>Nairaland
Jesus fuck I almost forgot about that site.
>>1355109
>Internationalizing the national conflict
Holy shit man, that's like the worst thing you could possibly do, ever. Boko Haram will get more legitimacy, it'll become a problem for the whole region, and the civil war will still remain there. South Sudan was like that.
>>1355134
How will it be a civil war if they aren't part of Nigeria anymore? There would be some Boko Haram Islamic State in the north and a Nigeria in the south.
Not that I agree, and not that its worth it, and not that it will happen, but I don't see how there'd be civil war.
Just let more people be emperor of Rome man, no civil war that way.
>>1355138
Well, it won't be a civil war, obviously, but it'll still be a war, that's the thing. Calls for separation often mistake cause and effect. As I said, South Sudan actually had perfectly legitimate reasons for independence but even that didn't help them.
>>1354951
Cool, now show me African civilizations that weren't propped up by Arabs.
>>1355750
>tries to discredit African civilization by saying trading doesn't count
>>1354951
this image triggers /pol/ because of all the empires
this image triggers Afrocentric , because Egypt isn't in West Africa
>>1355002
And the Middle East was only rich due to Chinese/Indian Trade going west.
I suppose the Arabs arent worth shit now.
>>1354951
name some important inventions by these tribes
>>1355977
Ethiopians invented Coffee for starters.
>>1354951
>Nigeria
Not gonna be a world power unless they make peace with each other; otherwise it will divide in half
>>1354951
So what's inbetween all this, was it wilderness and they just didn't bother with it?
>>1354951
But those are all secondary societies
>>1355998
Tribes who did not form states, usually.
Kinda like Central Asia/Siberia.
>African Empire
Let's hear about their administration, infrastructure and military organization.
>>1356006
Are you implying the kingdoms mentioned didn't have those?
>>1355138
so they wan't to be a world power in the future but are not able to repress some terrorist led by a guy who chews on a tree? this is going to be great!
Was any of those states in sub-sahara africa literate?
>>1354951
When there is proof to support it, yes the Bantu states existed but what records are left of them? What did they leave behind for us to learn of their way of life and achivments?
Same thing with most west african imperial systems
>>1355134
Perhaps, but now it will be much easier to convince other nations to help you deal with them.
Why I imagine that if American finds out that there is a nation where everyone is black, muslims and sittning on oil they will bomb that shit so fast nobody will ever register that it happened.
>>1356019
Ethiopia/Aksum were from very early on, earlier than most of the world.
In the West System, they weren't literate before Islam spread. Afterwards they were, since Islam requires that you read the book in Arabic, you needed to know how to read and write else you can't be Muslim.
In the Southern System, they weren't literate until colonization by the European powers, and then the process was slow, since neither the locals cared to do it, nor the occupying nations cared to make them.
>>1356023
But the oil is with the capitalist southern part near the coast, while the muslims and carnage are in the northern part.
>>1356032
Well I still think that American won't be able to hold themselves from bombing black muslims
>>1356038
They don't even speak about in the news, what makes you think they'd bomb it?
Most people aren't aware Nigeria is at civil war at all.
Boko Haram has like 1/10000th the media presence of, say, Al Qaeda, despite the latter being barely even functional these days. They have less members than /his/ has unique posters.
>>1356027
To my knowledge islam spread to sub-sahara west africa f.e. region of the housa kingdom roughly 500 years ago but wasn't a majority until much later. At the same time all the written sources of these kingdoms are from 'outsider' aka europeans or arabs so they pretty much stayed in a dark age. Some cultures can stay in a dark age but be very organized like some of the south and middle american cultures - thats why they left marks on the planet and the west african kingdoms not.
>>1356049
Surely stacking stones very high isn't the only measure of civilization and not the only mark you can leave on the planet.
>>1354951
Minoa the earliest european civilization was still more advanced than these african civilizations.
>Nigeria
>world power
Without white people there would be economies in Africa.
>>1356053
No not the only but it is a very good sign of culture. Building a pyramid is basicly simple but after a certain size a requires hugely compley organization skills with on the other hand require math etc. Because of that these monuments are a visible proof that these civilisations had these skills. In an other example: The aqueduct of withc the pont du gard is a part of has a length of 50 km but only a height difference of 12 meter. Even if all written accounts of the roman empire would be lost we would still know that they had a fucking amazing understanding of math.
>>1356041
Well like I said, if they got a nation then there would be news about it. With the news comes the bombing
>>1354951
>Nigeria will be a world power in like 50 years.
Ahh, yes, the nearly expected Indian/Nigerian world rule.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl0b2LGf9jM
>>1356067
Black africans dont have the patience required to engineer the pyramids thats why all you see is mudhuts because they are HEY IF IT WORKS WHY IMPROVE IT kind of humans.
>>1355980
I think you'll find nature "invented" the coffee bean.
>>1356083
>making it about races and individuals rather than about cultures and civilizations
Don't be that guy. Genetics exist. You are scientifically wrong.
>>1356089
All african cultures were basically the same as Indonesian natives culture just jungle nonsense. Also race is a factor as blacks today still have the IF ITS WORKING WHY IMPROVE IT attitudes towards anything. Those africans that live in squalor have a very alien mind compared to you to them that squalor is meh and they dont have ambition to improve their living situation because improving things is an alien concept to africans as the words similar to meaning improve cant be found in any african tongue. That is why africans will allow anything to sit there for decades without touching it once even its broken like what we see in the Congo. I am sorry anon but these people are very different from you and I.
>>1356085
Nature didn't invent the coffee drink, moron. Nor is it as trivial as opening a jar of instant coffee do add hot water.
>>1355977
marijuana
>>1356107
>because improving things is an alien concept to africans as the words similar to meaning improve cant be found in any african tongue
You're full of shit
>>1356108
The coffee drink was ostensibly not invented by the Ethiopians, you imbecilic halfwitted inbred scum.
>>1356127
Dont be mad black anon, you people are aliens to us white people no humans outside of Sub Saharan Africa, you blacks never improve things on your own you need us whiteys to improve things for you it just never pops into your brains as a colletive thats why your societies are shit because they start as violent hellholes and with no drive to improve they eventually become hell on earth like most central african countries, and Liberia. Advancement is just an idea you blacks on average cant fathom its bewildering how humans with no innate drive to improve themselves can exist though.
>>1356139
Normally It'd be 3/10, but /pol/ posting has become so ubiquitous, I can't even tell.
>>1356107
fuck of and go to /pol
Any African civilization reach peak Roman Empire civilization, with out trade contact to north africa the the middle east?
>>1356144
Well i am sorry black anon but kindly explain why you were so primitive compared to us and the HURR SAHARA DESERT BLOCKED TRADE isnt a good excuse either as the Native Americans made civilizations in the American desert.
The only logical explanation is simply that you blacks are stupid.
>>1356068
you've let memes about the United States go to your head. Holy Fuck I thought this was supposed to be a history board.
>>1356107
>the words similar to meaning improve cant be found in any african tongue
This is some really fucking low-tier bait
>>1356147
but I'm not black
We know they exist it's just that they were all pretty shit and of no relevance to the development of humanity as a whole.
Kind of like the Mesoamericans or Australoids. They were there but, just wow it's fucking nothing. They had architecture and culture on par with Europe and Asia 2000 years before well done.
tier list of civilisations and their contributions to humanity are as follows:
Europe - Rome/Greece/Post-Renaissance European Kingdoms/Industrial era Europe/All of their former colonies and their achievements barring the USA (Since it broke away so early and developed largely in isolation.)
America - Modern USA
Asia - China/India/Japan
Asia - Arabic Empires
POWER GAP
America - Mesoamericans
Africa - Medieval African Kingdoms
POWER GAP
Austraila - Native Australians
>>1356085
Thats fucking stupid. Like saying the Chinese did not invent silk, but those funky worms did.
Anyway, Ethiopian Christian monks chewed on the beans to keep them awake in Vigils. Its later that they started crushing them for drinks. Possibly discovered it via cooking said beans.
>>1356230
So, would you say homo habilis "invented stone"?
>>1356251
Youre being purposefully obtuse by this point, friendo.
>>1356130
The arabs took it from them, cock goblin.
>>1355998
A massive jungle
>>1356148
>ooga booga i dun kno genetics blacks b apes yoyo
Really, you thought so?
>>1356218
>pre colonial North America not mentioned
Somehow I agree with that.
>>1356266
I'm not being obtuse, I'm just trying to point out there's a conceptual difference between the concept of invention and that of usage or adoption, my analphabetic sheep shagging prole.
Genuinely moronic individuals have invaded what was a good African thread.
>>1356291
One invented stone tools.
The other invented the coffee drink.
You are obtuse, and thick.
>>1356008
Yes he did. But let's hear about them, if he's wrong.
A brief explanation will suffice, I will even trust you and don't demand sources if it's reasonable and convincing enough.
>>1356147
Lack of trade
Also not that anon
>>1356295
Again, Ethiopians, as far as it's understood, did not invent the coffee drink.
>>1356317
Coffee was domesticated in Harrar, which is in Ethiopia.
People there knew its energizing and made a drink of it.
They didn't roast it, just dried it. If you are arguing about the origin of ROASTED coffee, thats probably some arab trying to make it last longer to transport it.
If you are talking about who domesticates it, its ethiopians.
If you are talking who first used it for what we use it today, that is energizing drink, thats also ethiopians.
Antony Wild's Coffee: A Dark History and the Factsheet of U.S. Department of Agriculture both agree, and are solid sources that don't quote each other.
>>1356296
You know very well we don't have physical evidence of them.
However we know of events that occurred which would've required them.
The simplest is that the West African kingdoms taxed people, thus administration, that they had state governed river and land trade routes to move gold and salt, thus infrastructure, and that they kept conquering each other, thus organized armies.
>>1356305
>lack of trade
This is a meme, Black Africa has always traded with northern states, either via the Nile or via the Saharan trade routes. "Lack of trade" is also the /reason/ why Europeans developed such sea-going expertise, after the muslims conquered the middle east and blocked the trade routes to India and China, Europeans found a way round. There is literally no reason Black Africans could not have done the same, much sooner than Europeans since they were already halfway there.
>>1356350
Thank you, that's all I wanted.
>>1356373
>muslims blocked trade
They just replaced Persia as the middle man.
Absolutely nothing changed. If anything, with the Ottomans on the scene, there was one less player taking a cut, as it would've been both Persia and the Roman Empire raising the price.
Venice made an empire out of buying from the Ottomans and selling to mainland Europe, basically funded the Renaissance with Turkish money.
>>1356442
No, the Arab conquests cut Europe off quite completely for hundreds of years. The Ottomans even had a state policy of starving Europe of trade, they had to drop this because Europeans circumnavigated Africa and started trading directly with east Asia.
>>1355980
Ethiopia doesn't count, Ethiopians are white despite their black skin. Everyone knows this.
>>1356350
Harari and all of us in Ethiopia roast coffee. We have coffee ceremonies where roasting is a central part of the process.
Who the hell can call themselves a researcher and not realize this is a universal Ethiopian process:
>>1356365
>taxed people, thus administration
Not really, mobsters don't necessarily have an "administration" and tax people.
>that they had state governed river and land trade routes to move gold and salt, thus infrastructure
Again, not necessarily, specially if we don't have evidence of the infrastructure like roman roads.
>they kept conquering each other, thus organized armies
That's the silliest of all your claims.
>>1356491
It's kind of true though
>>1356511
What it is is, inconvenient to your racist narrative. Ethiopia stands as a refutation of your "blacks din build nuffin" screed, so you make the absurd claim that they're "really" whites. Truly pathetic.
>>1356485
For the first source, the guy who's name I provided. For the second, its the CIA.
>>1356563
Dude it's a horrible source, we roast everything including coffee.
Have you never seen a coffee ceremony?
>>1356503
>mobsters don't necessarily have an "administration" and tax people
Yes, they do. Your local mafia must be shit.
>roads don't count unless they are european roads
Again the same thing like the marble blocks stacking.
What you are going for here isn't "there was no civilization", but rather "there was no european civilization".
That I'd agree with. Indeed there was no european civilization in west Africa before colonization.
>you can conquer a kingdom and gain control of all of its domain without organized army
Yeah, no. Unless you have an organized army, at best you can raid in summer.
>>1355977
>invented
>>1356586
You roast today, in a world that has seen Arabs spread their culture from Morocco to Indonesia for centuries.
The two independent researches mentioned suggest that at the time of its initial use it wasn't roasted. Rather the drink was coffee bean infusion.
The idea is that the roasting was done to preserve the bean so it can travel all the way to north Egypt and Syria, where it can replace brew and wine as the social drink, since alcohol was forbidden.
If the CIA is to be believed, and they are often to be believed, the roasting process was created by the Arabs for that purpose, and later it was adopted by the Ethiopian people, likely along with Islam, and from there it also spread to Christians.
>>1356557
Oh dear, you know full well that there is a different character to aethiopians.
>>1356618
"Invented" is a shit term, and asking what X group of people invented is retarded.
There are things as modern as the microprocessor that we can't agree on who invented, let alone something obscure and thousands of years away.
Saying "they used X" is enough. Using something sophisticated shows sophisticated society.
Inventing that something doesn't necessarily mean more sophisticated society, it means more luck.
>>1356471
>they are white, even though they are black
>except when i talk about poverty on /pol/, then they are black again
>>1356622
They're not like other African tribes, but then the same is true of all the other tribes,none of them is the same as any other. And while modern Ethiopians have a high admixture of Arab, they have sustained civilisation for thousands upon thousands of years, since long before the Arabs burst out of their containment peninsular.
>>1356617
>bean infusion
Hmm, there's a hadith commenting that Ethiopian slave was best at making infused drink.
>>1356638
That would be odd since coffee wasn't known at the time of Mohammed (piss be upon him) and because stimulants are forbidden under Shariah (albeit many but not all modern muslim groups consider coffee to be permitted)
>>1356650
Coffee was known long before the initial Arabic conquests and organization of Islam, and has always been permitted.
Without coffee, what do you drink with your mates in North Africa and the Levant? Beer and wine were a no-no, and drinking straight water was poor form and potentially bad for your health.
The stimulants thing is about harder drugs, and came later as far as I am aware (no mislumo tho).
>>1356671
>The earliest credible evidence of coffee-drinking appears in the middle of the 15th century in the Sufi shrines of Yemen
There are muslims today who won't touch coffee, idk how prevalent this attitude is within Islam tho. But the idea that Mohammed (piss be upon him) had anything to say about coffee is just wrong.
>>1356690
The earliest credible evidence of Australia existing are even more recent, but I think we can safely assume its been there since before white people wrote about it.
Coffee is a bean, a berry. If you are a hungry person, and there are berries growing in the bushes near, you'd probably try a handful. If you have a handful of coffee beans, you will probably notice some effects.
The idea that this didn't occur is stupid to me. Coffee is sure to have been known to locals.
At least you didn't quote the goatherd legend. Goats don't eat caffeine. They are actually used to clean tea plantations in China, since they eat everything without caffeine in it, leaving the tea alone. A goat is more likely to eat the branches of the plant than the beans.
>>1356714
Are you retarded? Serious question.
>>1356721
No, I am not.
Do you have any arguments to present, or just insults? Serious question.
>>1356727
Do you imagine that people just guess as to when various plants were domesticated? I mean, the first written accounts are Sumerian, so I suppose you think scholars are just guessing when they say wheat was domesticated thousands of years before Sumer, afterall it's not like archaeology is a thing, no-one can ever know about events that happened in the past!
>>1356741
Okay, when was coffee domesticated? Find me a good peer reviewed academic source based on archaeology and carbon dating or genetics.
Not that you need domesticated coffee to drink an infusion of it, but still, I'd love to read your sources.
>>1356752
I already told you, dumb-dumb. 17th century Yemen is the earliest evidence for it.
>>1356471
They're Caucasian. This means they're closer to whites than they are to blacks.
>>1356762
The earliest surviving written record is not an archaeological evidence, carbon dating or genetic proof.
In fact, I also quoted that the earliest surviving written record of Australia existing is from the 17th century. You should agree that Australia may have existed prior to this.
>>1356772
That isn't written records, it's physical remains.
>>1356789
Still waiting for that source, after asking for it three times.
The one I see puts it at 15 century for the "physical remains", and 10th century for people talking about the drink in written text.
And you still haven't refuted the notion that locals may have, and logically would have, used it before Arabs wrote about it.
>>1356596
Hey said that they needed something to show evidence of infrastructure similar to how romans buily roads that lasted a thousand years, not literally having roman-buily roads. And it doesn't take an organized and rigid military structure to conquer someone. You just need more dudes.
And seeing as how we see next to no monuments in OPs region of Africa that wasn't either built by Christians or Muslims (who came from elsewhere) I think it is clear to see that those "empires" contributed very little after their fall to the arts, architecture, science, or just culture in general. I'm sure they were technically considered empires, but to call them an empire is being disingenuous to actual empires a la Rome and the Ottomans.
>>1356810
>And it doesn't take an organized and rigid military structure to conquer someone. You just need more dudes.
You need more dudes to raid. You need organization to conquer.
Unless you plan to take all of your army and put it in the enemy kingdom and keep paying everyone wages to oppress the locals randomly, while your side is defenseless.
>>1356807
>And you still haven't refuted the notion that locals may have, and logically would have, used it before Arabs wrote about it.
I don't need to refute your credulity, the fact is that they didn't.
>The one I see puts it at 15 century for the "physical remains", and 10th century for people talking about the drink in written text.
10th century is far too early, 16th or even 15th I've heard but the evidence seems weak. In any event, the first people known to use it were Arabs (Yemenis), not the local Ethiopians.
>>1356810
I forgot to mention that I, personally, recognize the legitimacy of the kingdom of Aksum and Ethiopia. They flourished (albeit under Christianity) but they were still indigenous African peoples who did very well in trade and left behind monuments and the like.
>>1356822
>the fact is
Prove the fact then. Still haven't quoted any sources by the way, fourth time asking for them.
>>1356831
>Prove the fact then
How many times do I have to repeat myself?
>The earliest credible evidence of coffee-drinking appears in the middle of the 15th century in the Sufi shrines of Yemen
>>1356822
>10th century is far too early
This guy wrote about coffee, as quoted by a French merchant-tradesman Philippe Sylvestre Dufour.
>>1356840
Fifth time asking about a source. Six is too many, so I'll accept your response as a surrender if it doesn't contain a peer reviewed academic research pointing towards the 15th century monastery in Yemen.
>>1356850
Try Google you fucking retard. Jesus Christ you fucking people are getting dumber every day.
>>1356857
I accept your surrender.
>>1356847
Since neither of us reads medieval Arabic and since teh French have never been known to make stuff up I guess that settles it.
>>1356859
>HURR
>>1356817
I admit, I don't know dick about the supposed administration and military systems of African Kingdoms in Antiquity, but I can only assume that if there are no clay tablets or papyrus detailing or explaining military tactics or law, than we can only assume that their own systems were, if they existed, rudimentary at best, which is why I don't believe they even had them. If I was approached with any evidence against my claims, I'd be more than happy to change my view.
>>1356810
There are earthen walls that apparently are longer than the great wall of China tucked in West Africa. There are roads as well but seeing as Rome has Greece have Mediterranean climates that inhibit decomposition, massive soil shift and revegetation I don't think its accurate to compare that to tropical regions
>>1356882
They didn't write, and they didn't build permanent structures, so there is no evidence.
There is evidence that one people conquered another people and ruled them.
Thats imperialism, its empire, and requires military organization.
From the same arab sources we know people were taxed, that requires administration.
And we know there was trade in all direction, along the rivers, through the desert, to the east and that this trade was owned by the king, thus there was infrastructure and planning of some sorts.
All I am saying is that "administration, infrastructure and organized army" isn't asking for much, and that you need at least that, and more, to do what we know these people did - conquer the neighboring people and rule them and tax them, and trade with other people far away, beyond big natural obstacles.
>>1356882
So basically if a radically different people's in a radically different place in the world doesn't do things like a people you know than what ever it is might not even exist and/or is simple?
>>1355109
>boku haram
>>1356905
People often fall into the trap of thinking "civilization" equals Mediterranean culture. I've seen India and China denied respect for the same reason on this board.
>>1354951
>never developed metal tools
>did not know how to write
...
>advanced
sure, Obafemi.
>>1357016
I know this is bait but it's weird how there are people who really believe Africans werent iron obsessed and never had literacy or that literacy came to West Africa from Arabs.
Like its kind of sad.
>>1355109
Is Nigeria that free to guerillas that they have to literally change their borders? Not to mention you're giving your enemies a free piece of clay they can utilize to its fullest potential. Terrible idea.
>>1357029
....why do people with no understanding on African history post on African threads?
>>1357022
sub-saharan did not, arabs did.
Just accept the fact not every civilization is/was developed. It's kind of sad to face the truth.
>>1357047
Arabs did not bring literacy to West Africa.
The basis of West African civilization is indigenous Sao and Black North Africans who converted to Islam and utilized a Arabic script they altered to use as the writing medium of their languages.
This is widely agreed upon, Arabs had nothing to do with it
>>1357062
>>utilized a Arabic script
>>Arabs had nothing to do with it
>contradicting yourself in the same post
you're doing it right
>>1357076
Arabs had nothing to do with bringing Arabic script to west africa.
If you want to be an autist using your logic Arabic script came not from Arabs but phonecians
The Kingdoms of Ethiopia and Egypt, and the general civilization building on the Eastern coast of Africa saw, in my opinion at least, the highest quality of cultural expression in the continent.
I've been fascinated with ancient Aethiopia ever since I came across the lost Greek epic of the Aethiopis, which is said to directly follow the Iliad in the Trojan cycle and tells the tale of the Aethiopian demigod King Memnon.
>empire of Ghana
>nowhere near modern Ghana
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>1354951
>all that nothing on the map
>Nigeria will be a world power in like 50 years.
>>1357093
Why post west African imagery when you ignore them as quality cultural expression?
Why do people compare apples to oranges then say one is better than the other as a universal truth?
>>1357108
It's because inbetween were warring pastoralists or there were tsetse fly.
In the "nothing" includes Zulu and Fula both of which rekt Europeans for quite some time.
>>1357114
I'm pretty sure I specified that it was just my personal taste
>>1357134
But still why post their imagery?
>>1357082
>Arabic is the language of Arabs
>Arabic=/=phonecian
Agree on this?
>Phonecian script
so it's not African, agree on this?
>but altered
still not invented by Africans
>>1357121
Did the Zulu win anything more than Isandlwana and the odd skirmish against Europeans? Only ever winning a couple encounters and at those points only with a colossal numerical advantage and then getting your kingdom annexed is not "rekking" Europeans.
I guess they also rekked some Afrikaneer farmers, women and children.
Not sure when the Fula defeated any Europeans
>>1357143
Arabic is not merely the Language of Arabs, Arabs are the speakers of Arabic.
Arab is like saying Latino. It's not a race of people.
Okay well the language you're writing in isn't European and the basis of European civilization lies in Middle Eastern People.
>>1357136
I'm pretty sure what I posted is east African.
>>1357166
That's a terrible representation of us. I couldn't recognize anything in it that says habesha at all
>>1357029
Nigeria isn't a nation, its a country. In it are multiple nations. One of the nations doesn't want to be in it.
Since African countries don't gold referendums, they kill people and burn oil wells to be heard.
Protip: when you look at Africa, and see straight lines for borders, think of it like the Berlin Wall.
It is the same thing, on a country wide scale, separating nations into different countries, and making you a countryman with your yesteryear blood enemy.
>>1356218
>They had architecture and culture on par with Europe and Asia 2000 years before well done.
And yet a more accurate calendar 2000 years before
>>1357176
What would you consider a good representation? I was just posting the few pictures of ancient Africa that I've collected. I don't have many.
In any case, my interest in Ethiopia stems from the lost epic of the Aethiopis and the idea of the mythical ancient Aethiopia that is described in the tapestry of the Greek mythological canon, the southern most Kingdom of the Trojan Empire. While the original epic is lost, the Fall of Troy by Quintus Smyrnaeus reconstructs it among other lost epics, and it's this mythical depiction of Aethiopia and it's demigod King Memnon that I'm basing my understanding on.
>>1354951
>GREAT
>ZIMBABWE
>EMPIRE
>>1355977
>tribes
Seriously though, all American music post-1850 has been hugely derived from West African traditions
>>1357229
>of the two zimbabwe empire it was the bigger, this great
>its in zimbabwe
>its one people ruling over another people, thus an empire
Literally.
>>1357225
There is nothing in that picture that would have you know you are looking at a habesha ruler. It's extremely generic.
Also Greeks called all black Aethiop, even Indians. Memon might not literally be based on Ethiopians
>>1357225
Google "old ethiopian icons" for example, the webcomic style is unmistakable.
Also, technically all Rastafarian culture is from Ethiopia, right?
I mean, that religion literally has the old ethiopian king as their demigod prophet.
>>1357249
The ancient Aethiopia described in the Greek mythological canon encompassed the lands of modern Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya and Somalia. The Kingdom of Aethiopia at times encompassed all of northern Africa in myths described to be set in more ancient eras of history, such as the myth of Perseus rescuing the Aethiopian princess Andromeda from the sea monster Cetus.
In any case, the Kingdom of Memnon is described to be south of Aegyptus, as the story describes his ten year journey marching his army up the Nile River, sailing across the Aegean sea to Anatolia and marching to Troy in support of King Priam against the Greeks. He may not have ruled out of modern Ethiopia specifically, but he was most certainly East African.
>>1355971
Well no, they aren't actually.
>>1356038
haha funny
americans hate black people and muslims
>>1357251
Do you know any other good sources for depictions of Ethiopian cultural expression?
![Painting_JDC4560[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/41eivRy.jpg "Painting_JDC4560[1].jpg")
>>1357337
I'm not the ethiopian poster, but I always think of this webcomic cartoon style when I think ethiopian art. Very colorful and cheerful, and hard to take seriously with a western eye.
>>1357230
so, some music, that's the extent of creation through thousands of years?
>>1357427
What have you made, you fag?
"Some music, thats all?". Holy fuck, the lengths at which you people will rationalize your terrible opinions rather than change them.
>>1357337
Ethiopian culture is the culture of Israel.
>>1357449
>muh feelings
a culture is the extent on which a nation can create and develop, which is why former areas that weren't very relevant such as sweden became behemoths in biology and chemistry as their culture changed during the empire period, but nice chimpout anyways
>>1356471
You do know we hate people like you.
t. Habesha
>>1356637
the admixture was way way way back ages ago before Arab was a thing dude and it wasn't a huge admixture fools like to claim it was.
>>1354951
>WE WUZ KANGZ
A shame nothing amounted of these Afican empires, with the exception of Egypt (which wasnt even black at the time). Wheres all the great architecture and culture these empires bought about in a place like Lagos, Nigeria? Oh wait there is none, just poverty and blight and crime.
>>1355980
Ethiopians were eating the raw, green coffee beans though.
Arabs are the ones that first roasted, ground and made a beverage out of it.
>>1356027
>since neither the locals cared to do it
The colonial education system couldn't handle the demand for education in many parts because missionaries had a budget no greater then a couple of pennies and a shoestring so often the burden of education fell on the parents to pay for it which many could not and free education were not a thing at all back then and in many places even today pretty limited.
>>1357761
Actually this is by no means clear. It's reputed that it was an Arab who first roasted coffee beans, but there are no reliable records, the best we can say is that the first definite proof of ground, roasted coffee comes from yemen.
>>1357794
>HURR IMMIGRATION IS WHITE GENOCIDE
>DURR AFRICA NEEDS TO BE DE-NIGGERFIED
>>1357739
what?
Can you be more specific in your claims memester?
>>1357799
Rhodesia couldn't even give all it's citizens equal education since it would have killed it's budget doing so lol.
>>1357805
is it better that some have education, or that everyone has no education?
>>1357800
Sure
Niggers are animals
hth
>>1357812
I guess that's the same argument as socialism and communism gives, it's better that everyone's miserable with no food or money rather than some
>>1357814
Yes, humans are animals. Well done.
was there ever a non-Christian non-Muslim African Kingdom/Empire that was reasonably developed?
>>1357852
to clarify I mean Black African before all the memesters respond
>>1357857
Axum.
>>1357812
Voting enfranchisement is based heavily on education.
You have to read how the education system worked in Rhodesia and see how it linked with so much other factors like voting laws.
>>1357862
Dude he had so many years to implement a public school system.
>>1357871
>>1357862
Kenya managed universal education, no reason why "the breadbasket of Africa" couldn't have done so.
>>1357870
what can you tell me about them?
>>1357883
I heard Google knows a lot about them.
>>1357857
Why are you excluding Ambrahmic kingdoms and empires? Are you trying to shift it so that at least you have some way to say "hah niggers were nothing before x desert religion came"
Also Kingdom of Kongo is one example. Somali city states were another
>>1357932
I didn't imply anything you stupid cuck, I straight up stated my counterpoint.
>>1357951
Public education wasn't top tier. So what?
Would it have been better if the ghoulies were running it?
Look what they did to the civilization that was given to them.
>>1356145
nearly every other culture that lived near shores developed ships except for africans
>>1357987
It could hardly have gone worse, could it? By denying the niggers even a basic education, all Rhodesia ensured was that the niggers who seized power were uneducated.
>>1354951
We wuz Emporers
>>1358004
What would it have been without the colonists?
Fucking nothing, like the rest of Africa. They were given a chance and they blew it. Why didn't the niggers educate themselves for thousands of years.
>>1354951
>empires
yes
>advanced
what?
>>1356107
This sounds plausible to me
But I don't want to be racist
can anyone provide source that disproves this?
>>1358075
Ethiopia,Thailand and Japan all managed to modernise without being colonised,no reason the niggers in Southern Africa couldn't have done so too. And we're talking about the policies of the colonist regime, saying "hurr dey wuz just niggers" is irrelevant to whether or not keeping a massive population of niggers in ignorance and virtual serfdom was wise or humane.
>>1358099
>no reason the niggers in Southern Africa couldn't have done so too.
When they were allowed to they did.
When the South African colonial government allowed for private ownership of land for blacks temporarily in South Africa many blacks got rich and sent kids to school as well in one scenario sending charity to the UK for some farmers that had some sort of accident. This law that allowed private ownership was of course removed soon after because it posed a huge threat to the colonial system at the time.
>>1358125
Exactly. Niggers may not be gifted intellectually but they're humans and have the same insatiable curiosity and desire to better themselves that all human groups show.
>>1354951
>Nigeria will be a world power in like 50 years
oh fug my sides.
>>1356146
Any Northern/Western European civilization reach peak Roman Empire civilization, with out trade contact to north africa the the middle east?
>>1358137
It has massive mineral wealth and is on the equator, once the technology exists to build a space elevator, Nigeria will become a global great power.
>>1354951
no writing
=
no existance
>>1358099
Not him, but it's an interesting question that we can't really address without being spammed by edge lords who think we haven't heard enough of their racial theories yet today.
I can't say I'm sure. I don't know much about Africa. But doesn't it strike you as intellectually lazy to jump to negative conclusions based off of a surface-level look at nations and cultures?
>>1358099
None of those westernized independently, hell, none of those were truly westernized until after ww2 even
>>1358136
What's with all the nigger this and nigger that?
>>1358145
>But doesn't it strike you as intellectually lazy to jump to negative conclusions based off of a surface-level look at nations and cultures?
No, it's how our brains work.
>>1358147
>independently
Nor did anyone on Earth other than the British. Technology is generally only invented once, everyone else copies it from someone else.
>>1358149
We're talking about niggers, what else am I supposed to call them? Black people? Because they ain't black.
>>1358099
>Ethiopia
Except that they did not. They held on with Russian support, were conquered by Italy (how humiliating), and then quickly fell to communist pseudo colonization.
>>1358143
>it has the resources.
yes lad im aware. the problem is Nigerians. blame it on whatever you like but china pulled itself around very quick from the same situation. i dont expect the same from any sub Saharan nation.
>>1356147
1. The Sahara is MUCH larger than any American desert
2. There are pre-Islamic Sahara civilizations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara#History
>>1358159
Are you mentally impaired? Did I claim Ethiopia was never conquered by anyone? They modernised under Selassie, obviously that meant importing technology, but they did so without being first having to be conquered. If they could do it, so could SA niggers.
>>1358156
African bro call them Africans and even refusing to call them black is so obtuse and you sound fucking edgy.
>>1358172
>modernized
do tell
>>1358177
But niggers aren't the only race in Africa, "Africans" is meaningless. The Boers are "Africans", afterall. And blacks really means the kind of nigger found in America, who are a mixed race (many nigger tribes as well as white admixture).
>>1358156
We're clearly talking about Africans.
>>1354951
>great zimbabwe empire
>bachwezi empire
wow who knew I had an empire in my backyard as well
>>1358187
You want the definition of the word? Try Google.You want a history lesson about Haile Selassie? try Google.
>>1354951
>Nigeria will be a world power in like 50 years.
Nice story dude
>>1356452
>The Ottomans even had a state policy of starving Europe of trade
No, that was Europeans starving the Ottomans (and thus themselves) of trade.
>>1354951
>Nigeria will be a world power in like 50 years.
The poos in loo say the same yet their country is literally shit
>>1358190
What, Carthageans? Berbers? Or maybe we're talking about Copts?
>>1358195
explain how Ethiopia was modern interdependently
how modern was their state organization? what degree of mechanization did they achieve?
just because they bought some Russian rifles and maintained political independence, does not make them modern
>People seriously thinking you're not a real civilization if you don't have a writing system
Why stop there? Why not say you're not a real civilization if you don't have an internet network? Or any other arbitrary metric of being technologically advanced?
>>1355094
Nigeria is much, much more likely to split into multiple countries within 30 years; remember they just had their first peaceful transition of power a year or two ago. African countries breaking up is significantly more likely than any of them becoming world powers any time soon. Unfortunately, the African countries which are fairly stable, like Ghana or Botswana, don't seem to have any resources to become world powers.
>>1358210
Try using Google, I have zero interest in talking to someone who can't even be bothered to use grammar.
>>1358216
so you cannot tell me? you simply have an unsubstantiated gist?
that is fine, just make sure you are aware of it
>>1356890
>There are earthen walls that apparently are longer than the great wall of China tucked in West Africa
Alright then, post them.
Also, what purpose would they serve?
The populations in Africa back then were far less than that of China, and so walls would be a useless waste of resources
>>1358222
Like I said, I have no interest in talking to you. If you want to learn, go Google it.
>>1358201
From the context of this thread and the OP picture, we're having a general discussion about all Africans.
>>1356373
"Black Africa", at least in the Sahara, had no need for "sea-going expertise". Nomadic groups like the Tuareg and Berber established themselves well as facilitators of trade. Their nomadic economy sufficed for them.
Europeans needed new trade routes because their polities refused to do business with the Ottomans. As such, they went to discover the new world and you know where it goes from there.
My point is, it's idiotic to compare Europeans with the likes of Saharans based on "sea-going experience" and such. Circumstance gave the Europeans empires, and circumstance left Saharans with a nomadic system. This go for Sub-Saharans as well, as they tribes and minor kingdoms sufficed for them.
>>1358216
i'm curious as well. "ask google" would be appropriate on a more obvious topic. Ethopia managed to somewhat modernize.
i guess if you take a very broad definition of "modern". in the same respects it would be like calling Colombia modern.
>>1357989
Care to tell what book this is?
>>1358231
so you do not know?
you will expend the effort of telling a stranger on a Mongolian shadow puppetry newsletter to google things, but to actually defend your position
no
that would be too much
And all because I didn't use any punctuation and capitalization. How bourgeois.
>>1358237
If you want people to bother replying to you, first you have to bother to write grammatically. If our time is worth so little to you that you can't be fucked to hold down a shift key for half a second, then go fuck yourself.
>>1358243
You show me contempt by posting like a child and then wonder why I have nothing but contempt for you. gas yourself you stupid nigger.
>>1356768
Except, you know, literal Sub-Saharans live within Ethiopia.
>>1357121
>both of which rekt Europeans
Don't think so chum
>african empires
>citation needed
>>1358252
but you so obviously deserve my contempt
i feel quite blameless in this matter
Now tell me about Ethiopian modernity. Teach me, senpai.
>>1358249
>ill just complain about capitalization and avoid lending my argument any credence.
its an image board m8. get over yourself.
>>1358228
It was a wall with rampart and moats you.
1 second wikipedia.
>>1358228
>>1357890
>goes to forum for history
>lol fuck that google it
I'll never care to look into it outside of this thread
>>1357911
the OP specifically said black history so that is what the thread should be about
>>1358277
>>1358301
I read up on this "great wall" and it seems like bullshit.
First of all, there are no sources but to Benin's websites, and UNESCO's website makes no mention of it being larger than the great wall.
Second, it was apparently over 16k km, and yet it claims the reason only small pieces of it exist is because the British destroyed it during the Punitive Expedition, which lasted 9 days. Am I to believe that the eternal anglo managed to destroy 16 km of walls in just 9 days, with 19th century resources?
All in all, I claim bullshit
>>1358331
*16,000 km of walls
>>1356882
>x people didn't do it how y people did it, therefore all of accomplishments of x are considered void
This is what we call bias.
>>1358213
>being this much of a mouthbreather
If you have no writing system, you have no way of writing down records, therefore no history, therefore no civilization
>>1358347
>History only exists when it's written down
Well fuck I guess the holocaust is a lie because each and every death wasn't recorded down autistically.
What you mean is without written records there is less evidence of civilization. Though something being written down is a terrible metric of truth ( see: religion )
>>1358365
Yes, but that would mean that they're destroying an average of 1777 km a day, with no rest, which would be 74 km a day. That is highly suspicious
>>1357883
Axum was Ethiopia before jews/christians/muslims.
>>1358364
>Though something being written down is a terrible metric of truth ( see: religion )
It may not mean that it's true, but you can say for certainty that the ancient Jews really did believe in Samuel, the prophets, Moses etc. because they considered it important enough to write it down
>>1358147
>westernization = modernization
>>1358378
The Kebra Negast has a lot of made up shit in it.
Many people in history have biases in their accounts of certain things (especially if they hate the person) which makes separating the man from the myth harder.
>>1358364
It's a lot harder to reliablely transmit knowledge without a written system, though, and while I don't think that is a benchmark for whether something is a civilization or not, it is really important for a civilization to advance because people can much more easily build off of the prior knowledge of others.
>>1358372
Not him but they didn't have to destroy the whole thing what with the rate of growth of the jungle coming to grow over these earthen walls and the type of rain seasons typical to the are, they would just naturally fall into disarray without regular maintenance
>>1358391
Yes, but 16,000 km?
I'm not claiming they didn't exist, I'm just doubting they were that large
