What do we owe the church of the Middle Ages?
>>1349786
European world dominance
Thanks.
our sense of the futility of a central Christian Church. future Christians will carve their own paths in the Word and in their own pursuit of knowledge of happiness, free from the shackles of dictation and tyranny.
>>1349786
A slap in the face
>>1349786
the dark age
>>1349786
They pretty much single handedly preserved what knowledge from the roman empire has survived to the present day
>>1349836
>free from the shackles of dictation and tyranny.
>he didn't read brothers Karamazov
>>1350046
many of the manuscripts of the ancients were scraped clean and re-used for meaningless church documents, which were then preserved and only recently was the technology developed to be able to read them- so we shouldn’t celebrate all of the "preservation" work of the church.
>>1349786
Scientific foundation.
>>1349786
Familiarization with Church history should be enough to disillusion anyone about claims of divine authority in worldly matters.
>>1349786
Quite a bit actually.
>>1350059
>meaningless church documents
>>1349786
It is hard to parse out what came from the church and what came from medieval culture in general. So as long as we don't differentiate the two then we owe many of our social, political, and intellectual traditions to it to a considerate degree, and most of our good ones to a major degree.
>>1350191
The scientific and social revolution came about because religion lost much of its control over the state
>>1350215
No on the scientific revolution, yes on the social revolution to a degree.
There is no evidence to suggest that the church loosing power helped science. Especially when its foundations comes from the early experimental empiricists from the 13th century, and Oresme and the Oxford Calculators in the 14th century, and time when the church still had plenty of power.
Even the social revolution was just a mutation of medieval ideas, feminism being a prime example, which stems from the medieval adoration of the Virgin Mary and the resulting social effects, where women began to have serious power and prestige to a degree never seen before. The nation state and the balance of powers in government was also rooted in medieval ideas of the state. Mutations on many of these ideas became ascendant with a rise of anti-clericalism come the dark age of the enlightenment, but they were moreso turning medieval catholic ideas on medieval institutions rather than making a total intellectual break from them.
>>1350059
Proof?
>>1350246
Not him, and I don't have proof of such a sweeping claim, but he's an example of an important work destroyed by monks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes_Palimpsest
>>1350236
It is difficult to believe that burning the entire library of Alexandria by religious bigots was an act of scientific support, just as imprisoning Galileo and later house arrest for life could be seen as church scientific support.
>>1350264
well, it was preserved in some form
they didn't just chuck it in the bin to rot
>>1350278
galileo was arrested because he was a cunt as I recall, not like he was the first man to propose information that changed the understanding of the order of the solar system
>>1350294
That's true, but incidental as the aim on their part was effectively its destruction.
Personally I don't doubt the church preserved some works that might have otherwise not survived, but they also declared anathema and destroyed a bunch of others that may have survived otherwise.
>>1350306
the aim on their part was to reuse the paper,
I don't see evidence they wanted the information destroyed
>>1350304
>galileo was arrested because he was a cunt as I recall
Not according to the inquisition, specificlly because he claimed the earth revolved around the sun, if you think that makes someone a cunt, you must meet lots of them
>>1350316
Now we're just splitting hairs. If they had thrown the book on the fire to start a fire, the aim wouldn't have been destruction then either, it would have been starting a fire. But their aim was undertaken in a fashion that they were sure would destroy it.
>>1350323
you've been reading the wrong cracked article
>>1350324
tell me where their intention is recorded
>>1350316
>I don't see evidence they wanted the information destroyed
Thats because believing in sky faeries and evidence are mutually exclusive concepts
>>1350328
Oh for fuck sake. Is it is impossible to admit that the fucking church did something bad?
>>1350338
is it wrong to say there's no indication that they specifically wanted the information destroyed?
>>1350331
I'll bet that bit sounded real clever in your head
>>1350323
Copernicus said the same thing and was invited to Rome to give talks on his theory. Nicholas of Cusa and Nicole Oresme were open to the idea but rejected it because there wasn't enough evidence. And they didn't get arrested because they weren't cunts.
If you had known galileo's history you'd know that the man pretty much alienated himself from the people and scientific community that supported him and made them pretty mad.
>>1350357
Scraping it clean would be an obvious conclusion,what do you think?
>>1350278
The Library of Alexandria was burned by Julius Caesar, not by Christians. Many of the works were fortunately copied, and their copies later found their way to the Imperial Library of Constantinople, which was unfortunately burned by either the Turks or the Crusaders, but we still owe it some major things, like the oldest entire copy of the Iliad.
>>1350358
Religion is the application of faith – belief without evidence – whereas science requires the use of testable hypothesis to disprove theories resulting in belief only with evidence.
For my next trick i will teach you how to paint by numbers
>>1350376
>faith – belief without evidence
Hmmm I don't believe that's faith
>>1350278
>It is difficult to believe that burning the entire library of Alexandria by religious bigots was an act of scientific support
We are talking about the medieval church, neither of your examples are relevant to that since they are from different periods entirely.
The two points you mentioned are also irrelevant in general. The Christian attacked pagan temples like the Serapeum, the "burning of the entire librsary of Alexandria' by Christians is entirely unsubstantiated.
>The Serapeum had housed part of the Great Library, but it is not known how many, if any, books were contained in it at the time of destruction. Notably, the passage by Socrates makes no clear reference to a library or its contents, only to religious objects. An earlier text by the historian Ammianus Marcellinus indicates that the library was destroyed in the time of Julius Caesar; whatever books might earlier have been housed at the Serapeum were no longer there in the last decade of the 4th century (Historia 22, 16, 12-13). The pagan scholar Eunapius of Sardis, witnessed the demolition, and though he detested Christians, his account of the Serapeum's destruction makes no mention of any library.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Library_of_Alexandria
Likewise Galielo's theory itself was not considered problematic, only his teaching it as fact when he had insufficient evidence, and his slandering his formely patron and friend: the Pope, in one of his works on the subject. He was tried and put under house arrest WHILE other churchmen were publicly considering the same theory he had. Galileo was surpressed for being a cunt ( right or wrong), it had nothing to do with science.
>>1350376
How to you square this account with rational theology which does'nt take religious doctrine on faith but shows how it is rationally justified to believe the doctrines?
>>1350382
>it had nothing to do with science.
Galileo was a scientist
He disproved the geocentric theory through evidence collected by his observations through his telescope
The church claimed he had insufficient evidence by refusing to look through his telescope
>Galileo was surpressed for being a cunt
Thats what the church thought, but theyve been wrong on so many things
>>1350357
If I tear the pages out of a book and use it to start a fire, do I want that information destroyed? Probably not, I'm just starting a fire, but I am none the less doing something that will destroy that information.
>>1350371
Dude, you're historically illiterate if you think there's just one burning of the library of Alexandria.
>>1350395
>He disproved the geocentric theor
He didnt
>The church claimed he had insufficient evidence by refusing to look through his telescope
You have to give source on that man
>>1350422
>Galileo's discovery of the phases of Venus was thus arguably his most empirically practically influential contribution to the two-stage transition from full geocentrism to full heliocentrism via geo-heliocentrism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Legacy
>>1350395
>The church refused to look through his telescope
False.
Galileo failed to make a case against the most important argument against heliocentrism: That if Heliocentrism was true then there would be an observable parallax shift in the stars location as the earth orbited around the sun. While later scientists were able to prove this, Galileo was not due to technical limitations on his equipment. He then went on to tell everyone he had proved it, was teaching students falsities, and slandering the rest of the scientific community and the Pope.They got sick of his shit, and put him under house arrest. While their political methods were debatable, scientifically the church was in the right, not Galileo.
>>1350452
it was pretty obvious that a lack of parallax shift meant the stars were really far away. he couldn't provide a case against it because it was literally impossible to come up with the evidence at the time. they were trying to tear him down in any way they could.
>>1350403
but the pages were not thrown in a fire were they
how about you admit you're coloring conclusions
>>1350044
Nice meme
The Dark ages
Oppression of women
Wars of religion
Islamic terrorism
Plague
>>1351350
you're forgetting birthing pains
and hair loss
>>1351323
The old text was destroyed, they did not care for preserving it.
>>1351362
yes, clearly was not valued by someone
>>1350278
Reminder that the Jews burned the library of Alexandria because they hate Greeks
>>1349786
nothing, all the pivotal figures of the medieval church are dead and all that is left is a corrupt shell that inherited the neat cathedrals and reputation which it uses to get away with molesting choir boys
the current pope isn't even the real pope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes
>>1351391
Nice hyperbole. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who will accept this poor argument, despite the fact that Catholic clergy commit far fewer sexual crimes than the average man.
>>1351408
except secular authorities come down like a ton of bricks on "average" sex offenders, they don't try to cover it up
>>1349786
Getting out of them alive, mostly.
Uniting Europe against mongol hordes and Ottoman invasion.
And later, universities and science.
>>1349786
>Owe
Shit history, my friend.
Language
>>1350376
>>1350331
With the exception of some of the early church father's railing against paganism - that wasn't the case through most of the middle ages. This separation of church and science primitivism is almost entirely a modern occurrence. Really, for a good long time, the ONLY people doing critical thinking and reasoning, examining evidence and counter evidence, while deciminating education, were the monks and clergy.
Really, I think a great number of the men of that era, despite being religious as fuck, woulda shat all over this "creationism" craze.
Hell, even in the more recent era - look where the big bang and theories of evolution originated.
The rebirth of urban civilization in Europe after the collapse of the Roman Empire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_and_Truce_of_God
>The Peace and Truce of God, by attaching sacred significance to privacy, helped create a space in which communal gatherings could take place and thus encouraged the reconstitution of public space at the village level ... In the eleventh and twelfth centuries many a village grew up in the shadow of the church, in the zone of immunity where violence was prohibited under peace regulations.
>>1351378
This.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War
>Then Lukuas, leader of rebel Jews, moved towards Alexandria, entered the city, which had been abandoned by the Roman troops in Egypt under the leadership of governor Marcus Rutilius Lupus, and set fire to the city. The Egyptian temples and the tomb of Pompey were destroyed.
>>1351482
Oddly, and ironically, they always taught us that Julius "accidentally" burned it down dealing with Ptolemy shortly after Pompey was executed.
...Which says something about Liz Taylor's ability to fuck with public education, I suppose.
>>1351451
>Uniting Europe against mongol hordes
The Mongols were poised to crush western Europe if it wasn't for Ogedei's death. The Church also did very little to stop France from allying themselves with the Ottomans.
>>1351153
>it was pretty obvious that a lack of parallax shift meant the stars were really far away.
Or that they were fixed. Which was the more empirically sound theory at the time.
It was'nt like Galileo was the only one who had to deal with that argument. It was the standard one they taught in Science textbooks since antiquity. Just because 19th century atheists gave him a mythical status does'nt mean he should have been except from the basics of scientific inquiry, which requires that you deal with evidence appropriately when it contradicts your theory.
Laws against inbreeding/cousin fucking.
Thus an intelligent population.
>>1350131
I'll grant that they weren't meaningless simply because medieval administrative documents are highly necessary for research in the field.
>>1349786
Western Civilization
>>1351464
>. Really, for a good long time, the ONLY people doing critical thinking and reasoning, examining evidence and counter evidence, while deciminating education, were the monks and clergy.
The winners write history dont they?and yes,the period when the church dominated society and scientific learning has a name-the dark ages
interesting
>>1349786
The loss of about 1500 years of technological advancement.
>>1354066
How do you square that with all the technological innovations that took place in that period ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_technology
>>1350059
>>1350306
>>1350264
>>1350324
>>1350331
Without the church, archimedies work would have never had a chance of survival.
Even albeit unintentional, it still survived by the deeds of the church.
Also, anyone who proclaims God is a
>magic sky daddy
>silly fairy man
Their opinion can instantly be disregarded.
They are probably underage, or severely autistic.
>>1354020
The dark ages ended with the Christian unity of the Carolingian Renaissance around 800, which also corresponded with the church actually dominating society. From that point on we advanced far past any point in the past and things like the University and the origins of modern science began to take form.
>>1354066
>>1354020
>>1350059
>>1351501
>>1351391
>>1351362
>>1351350
>>1350447
>>1350395
>>1350376
>>1350331
>>1350338
>>1350324
Class, this is your assignment for the fourth of July weekend.
Watch all 13 of these videos.
>entire class groans
Civilisation (1969): http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyRoZMECvnfUgkIyAE9ICeZUvVK_fc-wF
>>1354125
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_technology
> The period saw major technological advances, including the adoption of gunpowder
Invented by the chinese
>The development of water mills from their ancient origins was impressive
Especially since it took 800 years from the fall of the WRE
>European technical advancements from the 12th to 14th centuries were either built on long-established techniques in medieval Europe, originating from Roman and Byzantine antecedents, or adapted from cross-cultural exchanges through trading networks with the Islamic world, China, and India.
and this has convinced me that the church strangled science and innovation for 800 years,and christian scholars had to depend on other cultures to advance
>>1354125
>he hasn't seen the chart.
>from pic related to mud huts
I was joking
>implying it's still not true
>>1354154
Holy crap, someone who is actually trying to push the dark ages meme.
You understand that even before the Roman collapse, central Europe was relatively undeveloped.
The church founded a system of colleges, modern notation of music was developed, and many of the fantastic Gothic cathedrals were erected.
The church did nothing but preserve science and information, and then go on to distribute it.
Of course they are not perfect, but better than those filthy pagans who would have burned it all.
>>1354166
>Gothic cathedrals
Literally the coolest shit, I watched the "building the cathedrals series" (it was cringy as shit mind you), but it told some cool stories.
Like with the adoption of the water mill, iron could be refined better.
One cathedral was about to collapse inward on itself, so they forged an iron chain to put on the inside, and they installed it while it was still hot, so the links tightened and prevented the collapse.
>>1354166
>The church did nothing but preserve science and information, and then go on to distribute it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum
The list of people’s work on this index does not support the view that the Roman Catholic Church encouraged science or come to that, any free thinking. It included the works of Johannes Kelper, Giordano Bruno, Galileo Galilei, Frances Bacon, Rene Descartes, Konrad Gessner, Otto Brunfels, Blaise Pascal and many others. Philosophers were equally unpopular with Voltaire, Diderot, Rousseau, Kant, Hume, Lock, Sartre making it onto the list.
>>1354178
Just because the church did not promote it does not mean it did not happen.
My point still stands.
The church, preserved, and distributed works.
Also I wish people would quit bringing up Gallileo; he committed libel against the church, basically did anything he could to piss off the Cardinals, and then was so shocked that his helocentric theory wasn't accepted.
>>1354166
>The church did nothing but preserve science and information
Only if it aligned with what it believed to be true.
See pic related, a bit past the dark ages, but the point remains.
>You understand that even before the Roman collapse, central Europe was relatively undeveloped.
You understand that when the Romans came the developed the area. It was the Church's rise that, instead of attempting to readopt and reuse an established order they set out and created their own, which took hundreds and hundreds of years, which meant the reinvention and recreation of many many institutes which had been around for eons. All so it could be done in 'god's favor'.
>>1354195
>and then was so shocked that his helocentric theory wasn't accepted.
because it was an empirical fact,if only the cardinals had looked down the telescope
>>1354178
>TheIndexwas enforceable within thePapal States, but elsewhere only if adopted by the civil powers, as happened in several Italian states.[47]Other areas adopted their own lists of forbidden books. In theHoly Roman Empirebook censorship, which preceded publication of theIndex, came under control of the Jesuits at the end of the 16th century, but had little effect, since the German princes within the empire set up their own systems.[48]In France it was French officials who decided what books were banned[48]and the Church'sIndexwas not recognized.[49]Spain had its ownIndex Librorum Prohibitorum, which corresponded largely to the Church's,[50]but also included a list of books that were allowed once the forbidden part (sometimes a single sentence) was removed or "expurgated"
Not as powerful as you think.
>>1354197
I would say that the central church was not as all powerful as you think it was.
Hell the Schism happens smack dab in the middle of the supposed "dark ages", and we can see tinges of reformation going on.
The best way that information and knowledge was distributed throughout the age was by way of the church.
>Roman's developed every area they went to
Central Europe was no where near as developed as main Roman provinces. They had a LOT of catching up to do.
Now, did the church extend this process? As you said for "gods favor"? Most likely. Was the entirety of central Europe in collapse after the fall of the Roman Empire? Not entirley, but mostly.
Would central Europe developed into the successful monolithic society that it is without the church (nobody has ever proposed an alternative), no. Probably not.
>>1354215
You're using the word empirical incorrectly.
If I were to put it simply, Gallileo talked shit, and got hit.
>>1354178
>Kant
>Banned by the church
>a bad thing
>>>/wsg/1162511
>>1354197
>>1354215
Galileo was the original fedora tipper.
The church would not adopt a new idea that hadn't been proven yet, especially with the protestant pissing match going on at the time, and risk losing face with a devout population.
They basically told Galileo "neat idea, but since there's no proofs you can't teach it as the new scientific discovery, so just teach it as a theory"
Galielo of course taught it, talked lots of shit, and basically made everybody mad. Just because it turns out he was right doesn't mean his science was good at the time, and it's only hindsight that has brought any of his credibility back.
>>1354166
Oh look, it's the dark ages weren't dark because I'm going to cite everything that marked the end of the dark ages as part of the dark ages meme.
It wasn't the Church's fault, and they should be indeed credited with getting us out of there in the end... But dem dark ages were pretty damned dark.
>>1354259
I propose we rename the Dark Ages to the "GERMANIC SHITS GET OUT REEEEEEEEEEEEE" Ages, which I feel more accurately describes them.
>>1354235
>Not as powerful as you think.
True,thats why it used the inquisition to terrorize people into "submission"
who else does that?
>>1354265
Inquisition was a meme, it really only occurred as a tool of the Spanish government in homogenizing their religious population and the figures have been grossly exaggerated.
>>1354277
There were 4 distinct inquisitions,the first following the Albigensian crusade
Welcome to /his/
>>1354235
>no. Probably not.
That's because we can't know we have what we got. That doesn't even remotely mean the way we got here today is the only way. Obviously we could speculate scenario's all day where we envision a medieval Europe without the Dark Ages, that will all be for naught though.
>The best way that information and knowledge was distributed throughout the age was by way of the church.
Yes I am not disputing this, but you are glossing over the fact that they didn't really publicize anything that went against what they said. They did the opposite, people were punished for speaking out too loudly.
>I would say that the central church was not as all powerful as you think it was.
I would say you vastly underestimate it's power. Sure at one stage it was it wasn't powerful, all 'empires' begin this way. But it was the central power throughout Europe and beyond in the medieval period.
>>1354282
>>1354277
>>1354265
I was about to write a 3 post 40k greentext about this. But got lazy.
Someone do it for me.
>>1354259
Dark ages are called the dark ages because of the lack of historical documentation compared to other eras.
>>1354311
How can that be? The church was promoting science and literacy until Galileo became a cunt. There must have been plenty of documentation burnt by the evil humanists during the enlightenment,so called because of all the bonfires!
>>1354322
>>1354322
The church were literally the only people who were still literate.
Secular literally became a synonym for illiterate. You have historical accounts of secular bishops, which doesn't make any sense until you realize that they're saying the bishop couldn't read.
>>1354322
Eternal Germans, destroying Europe again.
>>1354334
> You have historical accounts of secular bishops, which doesn't make any sense until you realize that they're saying the bishop couldn't read.
That's not what a secular bishop is.
>>1349786
>>1354154
You are ignoring that they created new technology to use gunpowder in way never used before.
>and this has convinced me that the church strangled science and innovation for 800 years,and christian scholars had to depend on other cultures to advance
Technology is not science. You need to disambiguate the two. Also, they still made massive innovations in the way they refined and improved on technology. It is extremely rare that anyone makes something totally new, minor changes on old technologies is how technology advances 90% of the time. According to your criteria every culture ever has had their innovation "strangled".
>>1354197
We already debunked the Gaileo claim. The church taught his theory as a theory, and he lacked the evidence to prove his theory despite saying that he did. He was imprisoned for political reasons, not scientific ones.
>>1354161
We're talking about the medieval period, not the dark ages.
>>1354178
We're talking about the medieval church.
>>1354215
lol no. He had insufficient evidence that "looking through his telescope" would not have made any difference to.
>>1354259
You do realize that the "dark ages" only lasted from the fall of Rome to 800 when the Carolingian Renaissance started, which was also when the Church solidified its power across europe. We're talking about the Medieval Period, 800-1400 here, not the Dark Ages. Sure you can complain about how after the fall of Rome things went backwards for awhile, but how can you blame the church when it was Church power solidifying and the mass conversion of northern pagans that corresponds with the end of the dark ages ?
>>1354265
Mostly the inquisitions were used to interrogate Jewish and Muslim spies, but details vary for each one. They are all vastly exaggerated though.
>>1354322
> He thinks that the humanists were active during the enlightenment
>He thinks that the medieval period was "the dark ages"
Just stop.
>>1354586
>We're talking about the medieval period, not the dark ages.
The Dark Ages is a part of the medieval period, yes.
>>1354265
You're firmly a product of the modern American "education" system.
>>1350323
Galileo straight up called the pope an idiot in his book.
The Catholic church has generally supported the major scientific consensus throughout its history; which back then was the geocentric model of the universe (it should be noted that today the church supports evolution and the big bang theory).
With this in mind, Galileo found (largely inconclusive) evidence for heliocentricity and planned to publish a book. The pope, whom he was actually friends with,allowed him to discuss his findings in a book under the caveat that he also put forth and discuss the geocentric model, due to the massive scientific and theological implications of his hypothesis.
Galileo decided, "nah, fuck that" and proceeded to call the pope an imbecile in his book and not give any restraint in describing his heliocentric model.
>tl;dr: the church did not want to hastily rewrite the modern scientific and theological doctrine on the basis of inconclusive evidence, Galileo told them to go fuck themselves
>>1354609
Traditionally people like to divide it up that way, but given everything we know about the periods and how much progress there was in the high middle ages it is intellectually dishonest to treat them as being the same imo.
>>1354586
>lol no. He had insufficient evidence that "looking through his telescope" would not have made any difference
Except he observed the phases of venus,proving that planet orbits the sun,not the earth. Obviously insufficient evidence to a church with its head buried in its arse
>>1354632
And yet, Galileo was right.
>>1354586
>According to your criteria every culture ever has had their innovation "strangled".
Except the ones who invented the technology europe acquired.Strange,now could china and india be more advanced in math and technology when the church spent 800 years promoting it in europe?
>>1351323
How about you go suck endless dicks? You're clearly incapable of admitting the church has ever done any wrong ever.
>>1354780
You are clearly incapable of ever admitting the church was the best institution for Europe to recover from the decline of the Roman Empire, or that they did a pretty good job of preserving and circulating knowledge into central Europe.
>>1354775
No, he was wrong. His answer appears correct to the modern observer by coincidence.
An answer that approximates a correct one, yet uses a faulty rationale is in fact wrong.
>>1354816
Why would I admit to something false? There were plenty of other organizations that could have done just as well. The fact they did do it doesn't mean they were the only ones, or even the best ones to have done it. The main thing they had going for them was the fact they promoted a common language and were fond of preserving texts that agreed with them (while also anathemizing and destroying texts that disagreed with them).
Destroying calculus was a pretty fucking big fuck up. Setting aside assholery like the genocide of the Cathars.
>>1354832
>The fact they did do it doesn't mean they were the only ones, or even the best ones to have done it.
Name some alternatives.
>>1354829
No, he was right, and had every reason to believe he was. Observing the phases of Venus was solid proof of his claim.
>the church dindu nuffin
>>1354834
Pretty much any other religion with widespread literacy.
>>1354816
So, are you gonna admit the church fucked up big time by destroying a book with the foundations of calculus to record useless prayers?
>>1354837
>No, he was right
Wrong.
>and had every reason to believe he was.
Also wrong.
>Observing the phases of Venus was solid proof of his claim.
Wrong again.
You can't prove that the Earth moves around the Sun without proving that the Earth moves.
>>1354839
Like?
>>1354844
You can prove that other shit orbits around the sun by proving that it moves around the sun, you fucking putz. That there completely undermined their geocentric models.
God damn, what is it with you people and refusing to ever admit the church did something wrong? The pope should have just sucked it up and taken it like a big boy.
Here, prove you're not a raving ideologue, admit to something wrong the church did.
>>1354846
Buddhism. Neo-platonism. Judaism.
>>1354775
Of course, but prior to his aggressive promotion of Copernican astronomy the church actually had no qualms with the idea, and even protected Johannes Kepler from persecution.
Galileo however forced the church to take a stance due to publicly ridiculing clergy members and promoting his theory as fact, which as has been mentioned, still lacked conclusive evidence at the time. And remember, by siding with this unverified theory the church would have had to rewrite centuries of theological doctrine essentially overnight.
It was actually Galileo's aggressive stance against the church and his insistence on demonising or ignoring those who actually supported him that resulted in the official banning of Copernican texts.
Galileo was a prick, even if he was right.
>>1354842
No, it was a blessing that they preserved the last known record of archimedies work.
The other two were lost to a fire, and a flood respectively.
Archimedies was an autist like you anyway.
>>1354846
>inb4 Islam
He can't bring one up because none of the ones he can present are viable in Europe.
There's no point in arguing with fedoras that tip this hard.
>>1354848
>That there completely undermined their geocentric models.
Except, you know, proving that the Earth moves around the Sun.
Which is kind of the crux of the issue when discussing geocentrism. You know what geocentrism literally means, right?
The rest of your post is garbage that just proves you've got
>>1354851
>Galileo was a prick, even if he was right.
And the church was still in the wrong for what it did.
>>1354849
None of those were viable in Europe in any sense of the world.
>Judaism
I laugh in your face for even recommending this.
There was no other institution in Europe that could have preserved history and knowledge, and bring Europe to the world's most prominent, global, and monolithic society ever known.
How about you fuck right off now.
>>1354859
Galileo committed libel.
And pissed the entirety of the church off intentionally, instead of doing things the rational way; he fucked up his chance to do anything.
Imagine a scientist walking into the British League of Scientists; and telling them all they are fucking retarded, spitting in their faces, and THEN telling them to look at your work.
Does this sound like a good idea?
>>1354865
>There was no other institution in Europe that could have preserved history and knowledge, and bring Europe to the world's most prominent, global, and monolithic society ever known.
Oh for fuck sake. So you're just going to assume that just because history played out one way, that's the only conceivable way it could have played out?
>How about you fuck right off now.
You first you fucking ideologue.
>Galileo committed libel.
I'm pretty sure calling someone an idiot doesn't qualify.
>>1354858
>You know what geocentrism literally means, right?
It means everything orbits the earth,which,by discovering the jovian moons and the phases of venus....proved it wrong.
So, are we going to have science and free inquiry,or should the church lock him up for the rest of his life?
>>1354867
You're so fucking dumb.
If you cannot prove the earth revolves around the sun, then you cannot prove the universe is helocentric.
You can prove that other celestial bodies orbit larger celestial bodies, but not that it doesn't orbit ours.
>The pope should have listened to some autist spewing libel and making an ass of himself
Gallileo shouldn't have been such an autistic shithead, and nor should you.
>>1354868
Just because you've been proven wrong left and right, doesn't mean you have to move the goal posts.
We are talking about Europe, in the low middle ages, tell me, how does fucking Buddhism become the dominate religion in Europe and somehow propel us into some super science world of magic and make believe?
Oh wait.
It doesn't.
What do you suggest next Dr. Suess? Pagans?
>>1354867
>Demonstrating that shit orbited around the sun fundamentally undermined that.
Except for not proving that the Earth moves.
You're really trying, but nobody seriously testing a heliocentric model against a geocentric model would ignore whether or not the Earth fucking moves.
>As for the rest, thanks for proving my point.
Please, tip harder. I have absolutely no reason to answer for the Roman Catholic Church and all of it's history just because you're blinded by your own asspain over being demonstrably wrong.
>>1354872
>So, are we going to have science and free inquiry,or should the church lock him up for the rest of his life?
We got both.
>>1354872
>>1354868
You should stop before these other people slap your shit some more.
>>1354873
>You're so fucking dumb.
>If you cannot prove the earth revolves around the sun, then you cannot prove the universe is helocentric.
>You can prove that other celestial bodies orbit larger celestial bodies, but not that it doesn't orbit ours.
It disproves geocentrism, and implies that celestial bodies orbit the sun. No, it's not absolute proof, but it consigned every geocentric model to the dustbin, and the church was retarded for not accepting it.
>Gallileo shouldn't have been such an autistic shithead, and nor should you.
Calling someone an idiot is not libel, you fucking festering sore.
>We are talking about Europe, in the low middle ages, tell me, how does fucking Buddhism become the dominate religion in Europe and somehow propel us into some super science world of magic and make believe?
Nice strawman. I never claimed it would do that. Buddhism taking off in Europe was a very real possibility in the classical period, due to the interactions of the greco-Buddhists. What the catholic church did wasn't particularly special. I didn't say they were bad for Europe, I just think they were a wash, because for all the texts they preserved, they destroyed a bunch as well. Including some very fucking important ones, like the foundation of calculus. Gee, I wonder we could have done with calculus a few hundred years earlier?
>>1354885
Judging by the choice of philosopher in your picture, I have no illusions which side you're slanted towards. Go suck his dick more.
>>1354868
>So you're just going to assume that just because history played out one way, that's the only conceivable way it could have played out?
Yes, because this isn't some secluded alt-hist fanfic-circlejerk forum. If you think some other institution could have preserved the remnants of the Romans as well as the vestige of the Western Roman Empire did, I'm all fucking ears so long as you can actually back it up.
>>1354878
>Galileo deserved what he got.
An apology from the pope (400 years to late)
A spacecraft exploring the universe
acclaim as a great scientist
as for the pope
>Increasing irreverence
>Pedophilia
>Nazis
>>1354898
By entertaining this notion you've already accepted the possibility of other institutions doing the job.
Fine, neo-platonists cults funded under a successful Julian do it, and do it without destroying every philosopher that ever disagreed with them, or at least without destroying calculus.
>>1354893
It's literally just a meme.
Why are you so fixated on penis anon, are you a homosexual?
>side your slanted towards.
I'm "slanted" because they make a much stronger case.
Because they are right, and you are not.
>>1354887
>It disproves geocentrism, and implies that celestial bodies orbit the sun. No, it's not
No, it proves that not ALL bodies strictly orbit the earth, not that the earth orbits the sun. Or moves at all.
>Calling someone an idiot is not libel, you fucking festering sore.
He literally printed and lied about the pope and a shit ton of Cardinals. I'm not suprised you didn't know this.
You are an autistic moron after all.
>Nice strawman. I never claimed it would do that.
You claimed that there were other institutions that had any viability to preserve the knowledge.
>Buddhism taking off in Europe was a very real possibility in the classical period,
We're not talking about the classical period. We're talking about 800 AD to 1400 AD.
So not a chance in hell.
>due to the interactions of the greco-Buddhists.
Meme. Insignificant followers.
>What the catholic church did wasn't particularly special.
Raise a civilization from the dead? I suggest you do your home work.
>>1354149
>I didn't say they were bad for Europe, I just think they were a wash, because for all the texts they preserved, they destroyed a bunch as well.
They preserved a far greater number than any institution would have been able to.
>Uncluding some very fucking important ones, l
They actually preserved the foundation of calculus, albeit indirectly, but the other two were: as I said; destroyed in a fire and a flood.
Central Europe couldn't do SHIT with calculus.
They had ZERO use for it.
Why can't your autistic little head wrap around simple ideas?
>>1354900
Gallileo did not deserve an apology, he never received one.
One pope cannot apologize for another.
He deserved to rot in prison.
He did not have sufficient proof that the earth moved.
>>1354902
There are zero other institutions that coulld have done the job.
Your cult would be too miniscule and insignificant to do anything.
Christianity was wide spread and effective.
You can go back to r/atheism now with a screenshot declaring
"Victory"
>>1349786
scientific method
political plurality
concept that war is wrong
>>1354749
But that isn't evidence that the earth rotates at all. It only tells us anything about Venus. It's insufficient evidence to anyone with a triple digit IQ.
>>1354778
Almost all of those inventions came from minor innovations on other technologies in the past. Whether or not another civilization was more advanced in some field ( the crowning point of the Medieval West was logic anyways, you can't be the best at everything) has nothing to do with whether or not your civilization supported innovation in that field. Yes, civilizations that were far older and had far greater political unity for longer periods of time were more advanced in some ways, this has nothing to do with anything we are talking about. You are grasping at straws.
>Destroying calculus was a pretty fucking big fuck up.
That book sat around not inspiring anyone to actually go make calculus ( it layed some rough foundations, but was miles away from the real thing) for 1300 years before it was written over. Chances are that it was'nt actually that great of a work. After the fact we can look at it and say " hey this is kind of like calculus" but it inspired no one in Rome where it sat for years before Christianity was even a thing.
>>1354872
Showing that geocentrism was'nt entirely true isn't enough to show that heliocentrism is true though, which is what Galileo claimed.
All Western art, architecture, philosophy, science...
Every fucking thing that relates to Western civilisation.
>>1354902
>things that never happened
>>1349786
They gave us a fine example of why you shouldn't trust authority figures without question.
A few things that come to mind:
- just about every ancient book
- rationalism
- the scientific method
- universities
- Romanesque art and architecture
- Gothic art and architecture
- justice by inquiry rather than some form of dueling
- Christendom and the fact that the West became a thing in the first place, instead of just getting raped by Islam or whatever
>>1355185
t. trusting Richard Dawkins without question
>>1354962
>>There are zero other institutions that coulld have done the job.
Oh look guys, an unsupportable assertion.
Fuck off christard and get the fuck back to whatever christard forum you came from. 4chan is no place for you fuckers.
>>1354832
>>1354842
>>1354887
>>1354902
Still not true no matter how many times you say it.
Archimedes' book was in Constantinople. It was turned into a prayer book by Orthodox monks, not by the Catholic Church. And it most definitely did not in any way invent calculus. It solved geometric problems (using methods of approximation that wouldn't be considered valid today) which today can be solved accurately using integral calculus.
You obviously don't even know what calculus is. You want to know who actually founded it? A man named Nicolas Oresme, grand master at the University of Paris and bishop of Lisieux in the 14th century.
>>1350407
All three times it was burned by non Christians you niwit, and the only time it was ever burned on purpose was by Muslims.
>>1350278
Reminder that Christians killed Hypatia in cold blood and the pagan intellectuals fled Alexandria after that
Atheism seems to be based entirely on mythology
>the Church persecuted science
>the Church destroyed ancient books
>Christians burned the library of Alexandria
>Hypatia was killed for being a scientist
>the Church refused to look through Galileo's telescope
etc
And it's like no matter how many times those myths are disproven, atheists just hold their ears shut and keep repeating them, because otherwise their whole little universe of delusion collapses.
>>1350126
Whoa, I hadn't realized we owe this meme to the christian church.
How did they preserve it all the way to modern day?
>>1355240
Oh that is fucking rich. Who is Newton and/or Leibniz?
>>1355274
>Hypatia was killed for being a scientist
Yea coz the reality that she was killed for charming the Roman mayor to perform secular governance with her very pagan ways is sooooooooo much better
>>1355290
Yeah I'm not your personal history of science teacher, maybe try googling their names for a start.
>science and religion used to be married
>they get a divorce
>religion takes the house, half the money, the kids and the dog, and all the big names
How about you realize that scientists who worked before the enlightenment were not religions anti-scientific nuts who want to be seen put in a 1v1 fight against science?
>>1355293
She was blamed for dissuading the governor from making peace with the bishop, and thus for instigating a conflict that was costing lives.
>>1355274
>Atheism seems to be based entirely on mythology
Atheism is based on the idea that when you think about it, religion makes big claims, and offers little proof to back them.
Its not based on 4chan memes, false flags and edgy youtube vloggers.
Read a fucking book.
>>1355300
Then why are atheists always the ones arguing with nothing but discredited pop history memes while everyone who actually knows any history defends the Church?
>>1349786
The dark ages and altruism.
REEEEAAAAAALLLLLYYYY appreciate it.
>>1355305
You are stupidly biased here.
Everyone who knows history defends the church? Get fucking real.
And they are bringing up these because either they don't know better and are copying what they read somewhere, or because they are as biased and as much of a raging autist as yourself.
Religion housed science for a long time. It no longer does.
It doesn't house much of anything these days. Not worthwhile. We grew out of it.
>>1355320
Too bad this thread is about the Middle Ages, not today, so you can stop moving goalposts and go cry about getting molested by a priest somewhere else.
>>1355341
>talks about goalposts
>when his previous post was about contemporary new wave atheists and internet memes
>while making a priest molestation joke, as if this isnt an actual serious issue in the church
I accept your surrender.
>>1350371
>Library of Alexandria was burned by Julius Caesar
That was the museum section, the library where the books were survived you stupid tripfag.
Fuck Constantine and fuck you, you Christian shills.
>>1355325
Are you just trying to drive home that you don't know what calculus is?
And no, Cyril did nothing of the kind. He only expelled the Jews after Jews had massacred Christians one night. The conflict with Orestes started because Orestes was harrassing Christians, including through torture, and refused to discuss with Cyril.
>>1355352
I can see why you'd try to change the subject after losing every single argument, but this isn't the place for discussing your issues.
>>1355354
The library of Alexandria was never burnt by Christians. No amount of revisionist memeing will change that you delusional fedora.
>>1355367
I do know what calculus is, whatever your bishop has discovered may provided the stepping stone, but Newton and Lebinz did create the calculus we know and use today dipshit (i.e. that curvy line when you integrate)
>Cyril did nothing of the kind
>implying he didn't receive his mandate from the pope himself
Holy shit full denial mode. Shilling has never been so hard
>>1355388
>that curvy line when you integrate
That was literally Oresme. He invented the mathematical function, its graphical representation, and basic integration, all while applying all of that to physical problems.
And where did I imply anything about the pope, are you just replying to imaginary posts at this point?
>>1355388
Don't bother discussing with these people, they don't feel obligated to make sense which makes the whole process pointless.
They guy switched topic mid conversation, I responded to him and he accused me of being off topic for acknowledging his drivel.
Have a glass of water and smile, knowing theirs is a dying breed. Cheer.
>>1355416
You know still posting in a thread after you ran away from the argument only emphasises how badly you got rekt, just fyi.
>>1355412
>∫f(x)dx = x
>∫
>implying what Oresme discovered is all there is to calculus
Leibniz says you are fucking welcome.
>Not knowing shit about Cyril
>still wanna shill for him
>>1355425
You moved goalposts and asked a stupid question.
I answered your question.
You accused me of moving goalposts for answering your question.
I called you out.
After this you haven't provided any reason for me to further communicate with you.
People walking past you doesn't equally glorious victory, child.
>>1355428
Oh wow, you meant that it isn't calculus because he wasn't using the long S as a symbol? Is that seriously what you were trying to say in your idiot speak this whole time?
Look I get that you learned in school or on Wikipedia that Leibniz and Newton invented calculus and that before that everyone was retarded, and I know that atheists have a really hard time putting their prejudices into questioned even when presented with new evidence, but maybe try to make an effort in critical thinking for once.
And you're just babbling incoherently about Cyril now.
>>1355448
>implying the symbol isn't a formalization to showcase the concept of integration.
Goddamn if Oresme drew a picture of a tyre, you would declare he invented the car. Read more about Hypatia and come back to me
>>1355436
>walking past you
>still in this thread talking to everyone about me trying to convince yourself you won the argument
You got rekt on every single issue. No Christians didn't burn the great library, no the Church didn't oppress science, etc. At that point I commented how this thread shows once again all the myths that atheists depend on. To which you replied with YEAH WELL MAYBE THE CHURCH WAS RELEVANT IN THE PAST BUT NOT TODAY. This is a thread about the Middle Ages, not today.
I think that's enough arguing with idiots for today, but feel free posting more childish nonsense if it makes you feel better.
after the goths, vandals, visigoths etc and steppe niggers ruined Rome for everyone, mainland Europe was a fucking mess where everyone was an illiterate peasant
The church did its best to keep things stable
>>1350126
and they helped preserve what could have easily been lost from times past
>>1355465
You probably never even heard of Oresme before this thread, stop pretending you have any idea what you're talking about.
>>1355472
>To which you replied with
That was my first post in the thread, you raging autist.
You asked why contemporary atheist this or that, and I replied why. The answer was of course contemporary, as was the question.
Unless you meant to ask why early middle ages atheists thought Galileo was killed by christians. Moron.
>>1355448
As an aside, atheists would equally get their narrative BTFO if Oresme has nothing to do with it considering how devoted Leibniz and Newton were to their faiths, with Leibniz especially essentially considering himself a neo-scholastic and constantly praising them over his contemporaries.
I will also say, all intellectual innovations come in degrees. I think we safely say that Oresme shouldn't be seen as entirely replacing Newton and Leibniz, but should simply be included among their ranks. 14th century works weren't easy to get, Leibniz complained about how hard it was to find allot of those works. So he may have not even gotten a chance to read Oresme, probably same with Newton. Obviously that tradition was foundational for the both of them. But I wouldn't want to steal their thunder entirely.
>>1355591
>how devoted Leibniz and Newton were to their faiths,
>Newton
The lies never end
>>1355193
No, any other assertion is unsupportable.
I'm not a Christian anyway, but anyone knows better history than a moron slamming
>MUH CALCILUS
into the keyboard.
You got BTFOd so hard it's not even funny.
>>1355380
so:
>who burned the library of Alexandria?
>>1357184
Julius Caesar.
You're conflating the library of Aleandria and its Serapeum. Now shooh.
>>1355604
> He does'nt know that Newton was an insanely devoted Arian Christian, who spiled more ink writing on occultism and theology than science.
