What is the general opinion of the scholars here of indulgences? Are they a part of christian doctrine?
yes, it makes perfect sense
the church spends the money on the poor and spreading the faith, if you pay indulgences this means you're a better person and don't deserve as much time in purgatory
>>1348326
in what way did the church spend money on the poor?
seems dishonest to have a hand between the individual and God
>>1348308
The scholarly opinion is that indulgences weren't what they are usually thought. There were "buy your salvation" things, rather something along the lines of "make a donation, may the Lord look favorably at you".
The problem which made Luther and many others so anal about was the fact that the sale of indulgences was franchised out to private contractors who often used, in modern terms, misleading and fraudulent advertisements.
>>1348308
>"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Except if said rich man buys indulgence, of course
No, indulges are absolutely wrong. A priest can prescribe penance that includes charity (only if the person can afford it), but that charity can be to anything that is alright in Christianity, it doesn't have to be to the Church.
Furthermore, the idea that you can pay off the sins of people already dead is really, really wrong.
The Butter Tower is a prime example of how indulges are abusive and repugnant.
>>1348326
It obviously created a perverse incentive for greed.
It's essentially the same as a guru selling magic charms or a snake oil peddler selling hair tonic.
From a strictly pragmatic standpoint you don't want to create market conditions where the clever can swindle people without any repercussions.
>>1348308
They never even purported to be Christian. They were always Catholic.
Fantastically successful hoax as there's a sucker born every minute, and those suckers pay heavily for the right to sin at will.
>>1348346
A single person can't build a hospital, a shelter or a granary, but together they can and the Church is a good administrator, fear of god means low levels of corruption, plenty of expertise and connections.
>>1348370
Gee, that's strange. My bible says that the wages of sin is death.
What does yours say the wages of sin is?
Candle lighting? Mumbling? Bead rubbing?
When do you suppose God changed His mind about what the wages of sin are?
When your church said He did?
>>1348410
Luther never purported to be Christian. He was always Protestant.
>>1348414
Good points, I think however they mishandled that situation gravely
>>1348419
The wages of sin are death, what's your point? That you can pay off someone else's sin with money? You can't.
>>1348431
I'm confused. You just said the wages of sin is to pay a penance.
Do you not believe the wages of sin is death?
>>1348423
Luther never purported to be a christian. He was a Catholic friar until he was excommunicated.
>>1348443
Penance doesn't "pay off" sin except among Latin heretics. Penance is balm to heal the damage sin has done to you and help you overcome its draw.
>>1348446
>Luther disappeared after he got excommunicated
Indulgences were never about paying your way to heaven. Everyone who confesses his sins is going to heaven. Indulgences are for punishing yourself for something that is already forgiven to you in order to achieve humility.
Imagine your mother telling you not to do something or she'll spank you. You do it anyway. You then tell her that you're sorry, but she says that it's okay and she forgives you without spanking you. You then go, grab a stick and beat your own ass with it to punish yourself because you didn't listen to your mom. That's what indulgences are.
>>1348470
>Indulgences are for punishing yourself for something that is already forgiven to you in order to achieve humility.
Except you could buy them in advance and forgo confession by doing so, that's how the Butter Tower was financed, through indulgence certificates that allowed one to have butter throughout Lent being sold ahead of time.
>>1348475
Indulgences were not used for sins that were not confessed. That was always against Catholic doctrine.
