Was the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom the 19th century equivalent of ISIS?
>>1344082
In terms of what they did, their rise and why they did it? Kind of.
Their beliefs from a Christian standpoint were waaaaay more heterodox than ISIS's is from an Islamic standpoint at it's core level. Sure ISIS ignores contemporarily accepted interpretations of some concepts on Jihad. But Hong Xiuquan flat out rejected the trinity and styled himself the brother of Christ. And held all sorts of other batshit religious beliefs.
The Taiping's closest modern Muslim equivalent would probably be Nation of Islam if it was a fully armed expansionist political force.
Anyone else also remembers the beautiful days when ISIS didn't exist and people didn't compare everyone who behaved at least a bit rude in history to them?
>>1344291
Don't worry, Anon. In a few years ISIS will be gone, and another Islam-based religious group will be murdering their way across a part of the world.
And it will still be #nothingtodowithislam
>>1344291
It's not about rude, it's about religion. Before isis they were compared to Islamic terrorists in general or crusaders /kkk
>>1344291
ISIS is just the most extreme example of muslim terror and it's a pretty catchy name. I don't think anyone even remembers Al-Qaeda at this point.
>>1344297
It will probably be some other kind of group. Commies yesterday, Radical Nationalists before/during that, Radical Islamists today...The next monstrosity modernity cooks up is anyone's guess.
>>1344297
Hell no, Radical Islamism will die out pretty soon because of how much of a dead end it is.
>>1344503
>>1344493
>Everything ISIS does, Muhammad did
>Islam has at its core the idea that Muhammad was perfect
You can't get confused on this point. Islam is not just "another religion". Jesus was literally a pacifist hippie who preached giving away your possessions and letting your enemy defeat you - not a moral figure but not a violent one either.
Muhammad was a literal warlord (a successful one too) who preached death to non-Muslims, personally beheaded jews, had slaves and married a first-grader.
If you gave a remote tribe a Qur'an and Hadith, the tools to learn Arabic, and a hundred years, would you be surprised if they turned out to be violent?
This problem isn't going away, and the sooner people accept that the problem is inherent in Islam, and Islam either needs to be purged or radically reformed - and if it is reform, not a minor reformation like Catholic->Protestant, but an enormous God-Quake like Judaism->Christianity
>>1344512
>and if it is reform, not a minor reformation like Catholic->Protestant, but an enormous God-Quake like Judaism->Christianity
So Bahai'is or Ahmadiyya?
>>1344527
A new prophet is definitely along the right lines.
You just have to contend with the fact that the literal first pillar of Islam is to renounce there being any other prophets, and Islam revolves around the idea that Muhammad was the last of the prophets (hence why they shit over any sort of reform)
It's no small task.
>>1344512
>Literal Warlord
He was a badass conqueror. Who cares? Hindus worship literal hundreds of those types.
>Who Preached death to non Muslims
...who were fighting against him
>personally beheaded Jews
Muh trecherous Banu Qurayza.
>Married a first grader
actually not true, according to strong hadiths anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLDDCRkVpU0
Make no mistake, Islam has a problem with fundamentalists more than any other religion currently existing. And those Fundamentalists need to be deported from Europe and everywhere else.
But lots are chill upstanding god fearing traditionalists. And can find proof in their religious tradition for their good behavior.
>>1344082
Hong Xiuquan reminds me of a more successful version of Roman von Ungern-Sternberg
>>1344537
Well Ahmadis just did that. There are quite a lot of them in the West because they were chased out of most of south asia.
And they're heavily persecuted by Muslim Immigrants and droves of wild nationalists alike.
>>1344547
>actually not true, according to strong hadiths anyway.
>strong hadiths
Like Bukhari? Literally the most trusted collection among all Sunni scholars, from Shafi'i to Hanafi - keeping in mind that Sunni Islam is something like 90% of all Muslims
So let's see what we find in Bukhari
>Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 :
>Narrated by Aisha
>The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years).
http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_5_58.php
>And can find proof in their religious tradition for their good behavior.
Flat out lie. The extent to which a Muslim is a good person, or has views/actions that are compatible with western civilisation is the precise extent to which he ignores Islam.
>But lots are chill upstanding god fearing traditionalists.
Can you even hear yourself speak? To be a Muslim is good because "muh traditionalism"?
Fuck of Ahmed, your clock is a bomb and you're not fooling anyone.
>>1344291
People always make those silly comparisons. "Was X the Al-Qaeda of its day?", "Were Y the nazis of their day?".
>>1344555
How so?
>>1344493
>The next monstrosity modernity cooks up is anyone's guess
>They laughed when we called them cis scum
>They are not laughing anymore
>>1344512
>thinks Catholic-> protestant was a minor reformation
>Didn't think that already happened
The middle east is basically going through its version of the Thirty Years War right now with ISIL and Saudi being the Protestants and the U.S. as Sweden. (Israel is France)
>>1344512
>Everything ISIS does, Muhammad did
So Muhammad primarily targeted people who believed in Muhammad's prophecies because Muhammad thought his followers were wrong about what Muhammad thinks of Muhammad?
>>1344512
>minor reformation like Catholic->Protestant
>>1344739
Obviously the Protestant reformation wasn't "minor", do you autists even hyperbole? I was making a point to show just how significant the change needs to be in Islam. It needs to be far more than the current Sunni-Shia civil war - there needs to be a form of Islam that rises from the ashes that is free from Muhammad and Jihad, and which can be re-interpreted and contextualised.
>>1344767
ISIS kill non-Muslims and Muslims who are not "proper" Muslims (e.g. Shia), homosexual Muslims, apostates etc.
Also, if a Muslim dies in Jihad (e.g. an innocent, pious Muslim bystander is blown up when ISIS suicide bombs a police station) that Muslim goes straight to heaven.
This is all straight from the doctrine, not just the Hadith but the Qur'an itself. The Medina verses (especially chapter 9) is full of justifications for the killing of various peoples including Muslims.
Part of any reform must include the ability to reinterpret these parts and leave behind the concepts of Jihad and the house of war (like the Ahmaddiya have done).
>>1344825
That's not a reformation, Wahhabism is like the protestant Muslims, in that they're actually more conservative than the general Orthodoxy
>Everything ISIS does, Muhammad did
No. Muhammad waged a mainly defensive war against Pagans who wanted to destroy his new religion.
>Islam has at its core the idea that Muhammad was perfect
No, the Quran says Muhammad was just a main and calls him flawed. The core of idea of Islam is the oneness of God.
How can you write such large rambling posts about Islam when you dont even know the basics.
>>1344503
This is bait
>>1344825
>This is all straight from the doctrine, not just the Hadith but the Qur'an itself.
No it isn't. You are talking shit. The Quran says that suicide is a sin and forbids it. Killing Muslims is not allowed in the Quran and is extremely condemned, as is killing anyone no just reason. You have completely misunderstood Sura 9 as it specifically refers to a specific war.
You are trying to get away with talking absolute bullshit with mad claims because you think no one heres knows anything about Islam but I'm an ex Muslim whose very well learned on the Quran. I won't defend Sunni Islam to any large degree but i'll call people out when they spout utter lies, purely for the sake of truth in the world.
>>1344825
The issue isn't the religion, it's the environment the practitioners are in. There isn't a neutral ground for different schools of Islamic thought to discuss their beliefs without worrying about oppression from the governments. Europe's muslim population is full of fobs and people who view it as an extended vacation from their home, they aren't trying to assimilate into European culture. Meanwhile, American and Canadian muslims are slowly trying to integrate modern ideals and practices into Islamic theology.
>>1344925
Its a vocal minority in Europe. Not a tiny minority, but not the majority, making them the minority by definition. The majority of European muslims do integrate. Resulting in delicious light brown women everywhere, which i like because British women are fucking ugly
>>1344942
The problem though is that the community harbors the minority to the point that they can't be weeded out and deported.
Furthermore, literally anybody can flee to Europe from the Middle East so they are always going to get more radicalized versions of Islam then Canada or the US.
Finally, they, like many immigrants, don't really marry into the populous so even if their children are nationally European, they are raised on values from the Old Country. For example, I'm half Egyptian/half American, I personally can't ever see myself viewing the US as the "enemy" of Islam because I have fucking American family, that's not the case in a lot of European countries.
>>1344588
>Kafirs acting like they know how the Hadith work
Man, that's always a hoot.
There are weak hadith in Sahih Bukhari. Apocrypha essentially. This is an agreed concept with scholars.
>>1344286
>rejected the trinity
Based crazy chink, even a peasant can tell from a mile when something is full of shit.
>>1344925
American Muslims do thinks like shoot up gay night clubs.
>>1345162
>a gay afghani muslim with mental problems who pledged to Sunni ISIS and Shia Hezbollah before shooting up a gay night club.
FTFY
>>1345180
He only pledged himself to the Islamic State in the 911 call.
>>1345186
True, but the point is the man just wanted a group to validate his death.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/78c1d0ee99084d1b8f487f7646dc1898/orlando-shooter-pledged-loyalty-conflicting-organizations
>>1345212
In the end he did two things, kill a bunch of fags and pledged himself to the Islamic State. Really, those are what matter.
>>1345268
He also bought a gun, and guns kill people.
>>1345270
By themselves?
>>1344698
He tried to establish a strange new ultraconservative political dogma in some place based on weird heterodox spiritual beliefs. Unlike Ungern-Sterberg, Hong succeeded (initially) in creating his vision of a utopia.
>>1344588
I don't think you understand, friend. The Hadith of Bukhari can be and have been open to criticism as to their authenticity. They are simply the most accurate out of the original Hadith collections. Not to be confused with infallible. There are weak, contradictory and disputed hadith in there same as any hadith collection.
It's easy to be mistaken, so I understand the confusion.
>The extent to which a Muslim is a good person, or has views/actions that are compatible with western civilisation is the precise extent to which he ignores Islam.
While that might be true if you are using the large fundamentalist groups as a reference point. I'm afraid the traditional interpretation paints a different picture.
Oh and this goes without saying, but you're hick trash. Get fucked in the ass by your father and die of syphilis.
>>1346013
>I'm afraid the traditional interpretation paints a different picture.
shhh, don't bring up the companions who literally gave all their worldly possessions to charity or the fact that freeing/marrying slaves are considered good deeds and a penance for sin. it might explode his head since they aren't in his list of regurgitated talking points
>>1346109
He's probably just going to cry about his precious Quraysh aristocrats and soldiers.
Anti Islam faggots seem to operate on a profoundly subhuman level.
>>1344286
Nation of Islam actually does have a paramilitary wing
>>1346138
Holy shit really? I'm scared now.
>>1346138
Only in the west. kek. Any sensible country would squash them for inciting race war.
>>1344512
What bout Sufism?
>>1346292
Sufism is pretty broad. I don't think too many can be classified as straight up fundamentalists though.
Except Maybe the Deobandis/Barelvis, who are essentially just backwards Pakistani tribesmen pretending to be Sufis while also hypocritically basing their ideologies off of Anti-Sufi scholars. So I don't know if they count.
>thread starts off about whacky 19th century chinese psuedo-christian semi-cult.
>Evolves into euro-centric shit show about a contemporary conflict in the Middle East.
Hmm.
>>1347772
Quite a lot actually.
Gradually dissolving slavery is more effective than banning it then and there leading to a situation where exploitation of former slaves in a chaotic economy is commonplace and just as bad as slavery.
The Ummayyads were truly counterintutive for this system (and to a lesser extent, so was Caliph Umar). And wrongfully raided innocent Europeans, Indians and Berbers.
And yes. I repeat. You are the subhuman. Hang yourself. I am serious. I am Unironically asking you to kill yourself now.
>>1344942
>The majority of European muslims do integrate
Ehn, it's more that their ghetto's tend to not be very devout
>>1344512
>If you gave a remote tribe a Qur'an and Hadith, the tools to learn Arabic, and a hundred years, would you be surprised if they turned out to be violent?
Depends on literally every other thinkable factor. Being Islamic isn't a curse that means that you'll sooner or later explode.
>>1347801
It took the West to finally end the Islamic Slave trade though. 1200 years is not gradual.
>Go into thread expecting to learn about the Heavenly Kingdom
>Turns out it was derailed by ISIS
>>1344512
The reformation was not minor bruh. It's led to at least as much strife, political turmoil, and massacre as Sunni vs Shia. But yeah, reformation won't fix radicalism.
>>1345273
>He can't into self-propelled howitzers.
>>1344825
Look, I think Islam is sort of a shitty religion too, but the bottom line is that radicalism stems from the person, and not the religion. People could find ways to interpret children's books into advocating the slaughter of non-believers of the gospel of the Cat in the Hat if you had a convincing person giving the argument.
