did Christianity set humanity back?
It's another form of comfortable nihilism to keep the working class from revolting against their oppressors
>>1323173
No. Humanity was fine without Industrial pollution and atomic threat.
Now that we've made this choice, though, to build some Icarus wings, let's not get so high our first few jumps, and see what we can productively do.
>>1323197
Not sure what you're trying to say.
Dentistry good, nuclear weapons bad etc etc
European civilisation prospered for centuries, them Christianity came along and we plunged into the dark ages.
Then the reformation showed everyone that the church was talking shit and and we had the Enlightenment.
No, it was a huge improvement in pretty much all areas: art, politics, law, poetry, music, and even gastronomy.
It may have been a meme but it was helpful sometimes
The Church preserved ancient Greek texts which became the foundation of science, humanism and democracy so....
>>1323173
If it wasn't Christianity, some other religion would have been adopted
>>1323246
Please please be a troll because if you're not you should seriously mcfucking kill yourself
>>1323246
Well memed
>>1323173
I don't think it really made any difference. Christianity isn't the kind of religion that promotes reason and progress, but on the other hand it isn't an anti-thought religion like Islam. Monasteries preserved a good number of classical books, but on the other hand so did the Byzantines, so again it's more or less a wash.
>>1323197
What are you trying to say tho?
>>1323246
This is what protestants actually believe.. lmao and for you guys to make an idea, they think masturbation is totally ok.
>>1323907
Jabal Tariq (the source of the name Gibratar) had 400,000 books in his library in mediaeval Spain (al Andalus)when the great monasteries of Europe could only account for scant dozens.
It was Islamic scholars that translated Greek mathematics, philosophy,and the culture of the ancient Greeks, into arabic, which then went on to inspire the Renaissance.
>>1323173
Set back? No.
Push forward? Also no.
No. I'd argue that it helped (the West) along with the non-durka age of Islam.
We've outgrown it though as a vessel for knowledge and culture. It's time to move on though.
>>1323173
No it gave a lot of people a common cause for a while until those in power didnt want change then it began a state of decay
>>1323246
Naw, the timeline goes more like this.
>Greece: Great intellectually. Europe does'nt exist yet
>Rome: Great Politically. Europe does'nt exist yet.
>Pagan Dark Ages after the fall of Rome. Europe does'nt exist yet
> Christian Unity from Charlemagne and the Carolingian Renaissance starts to bring civilization back and makes the first blueprint for Europe.
>The High Middle Ages surpasses the Greco-Roman world in most ways
> The Renaissance, humanism, and the Reformation sends Europe hundreds of years backwards intellectually and politically, disregarding most medieval innovations for bullshit.
> The Counter Reformation and a new Scholastic reaction starts to recover European civilization
> The 17th century comes along as people begin to innovate on what they rediscovered from late medieval texts, causing the scientific revolution
> The Enlightenment takes place and shoddy sophists try to capitalize on the scientific revolution to justify their mercantilism and democratic degeneracy.
>>1324366
>>The High Middle Ages surpasses the Greco-Roman world in most ways
medieval roads were nice and straight were they?what were these greentext medieval innovations
It's a Jewish creation to help them enslave white people
Just look at Common Filth for an example of Christian white guilt
>>1324366
>Dark Ages
>Pagan
What's brain damage like?
Hypatia was a witch and needed to die.
Prove me wrong.
>>1323173
I'd say so. It certainly did a number on Europe, as we're currently seeing.
>inb4 "yurop is secular it's all atheism's fault"
if it wasn't for Christianity it would be something else to fill plebs' heads with
>>1323173
Ah yes, the bible, that book saying the devil has a hold over the world and his people populates the planet and is trying to force us to worship the devil, you know, this world we live in where everybody talks wonders of jesus and talks shit about Satan.
>>1324416
>The beginnings of the mathematization of physics with thinkers like Oresme and the Merton School.
>The surpassing of ancient logic with Buridan.
> Countless innovations in philosophy that are still relevant to this day: haecceity, nominalism, second intentions, etc.
> The scientific method getting its first breath of life for quite awhile with Grosseteste
>The creation of the University
>The rise of what were essentially proto workers unions and proper workers rights and regulations to protect workers, with the urban guilds.
>Gothic Cathedrals
> Political theories and practices which emphasized the distribution of power without also abandoning monarchy outright.
> Mechanical Clocks
> Blast Furnaces
> Vertical Windmills
> Eyeglasses
> Crossbows and Longbows
>Counterweight Trebuchets
>Cannons
>Spurs
> Women made major social advances due to the reverence of the virgin Mary. Christine de Pizzane was the most popular author in the 14th century. Women more consistently held positions of power and prestige than ever before .
>>1324423
You tell me.
A big part of the Carolingian Renaissance was creating religious unity in what would be Europe. Converting Pagans. During the dark ages( from the fall of Rome until Charlemagne) there were tons of Pagans around, by the time the high middle ages comes around there are almost no Pagans left.
Lol of course, those idiots believed in a man in the sky and denied scientific progress in the name of muh God. Who knows where'd we be without the intellectual pitfall known as organized religion.
>>1323530
>The Church preserved ancient Greek texts which became the foundation of science, humanism and democracy so...
Except for the library of Antioch which they burned for all its neoplatonic texts and when they shut down the philosophical academies established by those great ancient Greeks.
And even lynching them in Alexadria
>>1324504
Didnt all these innovations occur 500-600 years after the fall of Rome?evidence enough of the dark ages hmmm?
and
> The scientific method getting its first breath of life
Galileo would dispute this opinion
>>1324070
This is bullshit. I'm sorry, I don't hate Islam but... The part that's bullshit is the 1) le Muslims translated all the Ancient Greek texts meme, because it was GREEK BYZANTINE scholars who did this. 2) European monastic libraries had "scant dozens" of books. Which is completely false, maybe true for medieval Spain because the Muslims looted those monastic libraries.
>>1324731
Dark ages is a meme and any historian worth a damn will tell you that
>>1324746
>Dark ages is a meme and any historian worth a damn will tell you that
Acting as if there was no decline at all is just as bad if not worse than the people who think it degraded to people living in dung.
>>1324742
Not with Aristotle they didnt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_of_Aristotle
>>1324427
i think the motives for killing her were more political than anything, but yeah in a way she was a "witch". neoplatonists have been known to practice some pretty spoopy magic
>>1324763
Scholasticus then introduces Hypatia, the female philosopher of Alexandria and the woman who became a target of the Christian anger that was inflamed during the feud. She was the daughter of Theon and a teacher trained in the philosophical schools of Plato and Plotinus. She was admired by most for her dignity and virtue. Scholasticus writes that Hypatia ultimately fell "victim to the political jealousy which at the time prevailed". Orestes was known to seek her counsel, and a rumor spread among the Christian community of Alexandria blaming her for Orestes's unwillingness to reconcile with Cyril. A mob of Christians gathered, led by a reader (i.e., a minor cleric) named Peter, whom Scholasticus calls a fanatic. They kidnapped Hypatia on her way home and took her to the "Church called Caesareum. They then completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles." Socrates Scholasticus was interpreted as saying that, while she was still alive, Hypatia's flesh was torn off ὀστράkοις, which literally means "with or by oyster shells, potsherds or roof tiles".[28] Afterward, the men proceeded to mutilate her and, finally, burn her limbs.
>>1324752
Society wise yes western Europe was hit hard. Technology and science still advanced even if it advanced slower in western Europe
>>1324787
>dindu nuffin
>>1324800
>Society wise yes western Europe was hit hard. Technology and science still advanced even if it advanced slower in western Europe
Far far slower with many old inventions and creations no longer being able to be used or maintained as civil society collapsed and it fell to the Catholic Church to maintain the shreds of unity.
>>1324883
>it fell to the Catholic Church to maintain the shreds of unity.
Which leads us to the Albigensian crusade and the Inquisition
Which I fear is the churches only benefit to western civilisation. Keeping a few good ideas alive despite his cronic inability to make use of them sensibly
We have Catholicism and the Church to thank for all modern science.
>>1324787
I'm gonna call BS, was scholasticus' account written some 300 years after the fact?
>>1324883
I'm sorry, but did Western Europe really have an organized civilized society comparable to Mediterranean Europe before this period? No, they did not so how could they have fallen 'backwards' if they were never 'forwards'? This period can only be described as a time of progress for Western Europe.
>>1324918
>who was Alhazen
>>1323173
not at all, if anything, it drove humans forward
especially after the christening of all Germanic peoples
>>1323246
>European civilisation prospered for centuries,
Bullshit, Greeks and Romans aside. Celts, Germanics and Wends were backwards as fuck before christianity.
The Roman Empire was already declining through the increasing power of the Imperial Guard, the excessive use of foreigners, especially Germanics, as soldiers-for-hire, and the Great Migration along with the Huns was a more plausible reason for the early "fall" of the Western Empire. (It was already very Germanic in the upper regions long before Odoaker exiled the last emperor Romulus Augustus.)
Remember that most of the invading Germanic tribes were Arian christians, most converted in the 4tth century.
>>1323530
>The Church preserved ancient Greek texts which became the foundation of science, humanism and democracy so....
That early Church also liberally destroyed all works written by pagan authors. Even if the context had nothing to do with paganism, such as say the lost history of the Germanic tribes by Sulpicius Alexander (the only excerpts we have is those cited by Gregory of Tours in his history of the Franks), it is as if they were afraid just possessing and reading a work by a pagan author makes the infidelity rub off or something.
That is partly why the Eastern Roman Empire, which lasted well into the late Middle Ages, also has such a shortage on pre-christianity authors.
>>1325052
Sorry, can't help you.
>>1323173
Directly no. But this leftism and 'progress' are direct consequences of spirit of the New Testament which prevailed over the masses for centuries and which is meek, forigivng and inclusive. This isn't a bad thing, but it doesn't sustain civilizations once its so hard rootted in general philosophy of the masses. You can't pinpoint those things, just like Chinese can't directly blame Confucius for influencing their stoic, introverted yet collectivist nature, but its always there. Everything that followed was built upon that, with little core changes.
>>1324898
The inquisition was a secular organization ran by the crown of Spain
>>1325224
False, the inquisition was an ecclesiastical endeavor however over the 450 years that the inquisition existed on ~3,000 people were executed meaning that inquisition had a death toll equal to 9/11 and significantly less than the Naqba of 1949
>>1324366
>>The Renaissance, humanism, and the Reformation sends Europe hundreds of years backwards intellectually and politically, disregarding most medieval innovations for bullshit.
Oh look, a butthurt catholicuck.
Oh yeah, the innovations of the renaissance totally set us back and shit, oh wait no they didn't.
>>1324504
>>T. Butthurt Medievalist
Fascinating. But no, none of that shit compares to the renaissance and the enlightenment. Furthermore, you can take your religious unity and shove it up your ass. The "pagans" of europe should have been allowed their own belief systems.
>>1325322
>>1325327
Stop cucking up the thread, cuccboi.
>>1325327
>The "pagans" of europe should have been allowed their own belief systems.
m8 a lot of pagan customs survived, what do you think Christmas is?
Here they changed the placenames referring to old pagan sacred places, we have literally hundred of such examples: Wienebrugge (Wiene = Wodan) becomes Sint-Michiels-Brugge.
The whole reverring of saints in Roman catholicism and Eastern orthodoxy was thought up as a way to make christianity more palatable for the heathens. Just change Wodan to Saint Michael or Peter, change Thor to Saint Andreas etc... Freya or similar Celtic deities, often local, like the Mother of Bavay (Belgis in antiquity, capital of the Nervii), became Mary. Why do you think in several parts of Western Europe there is such a profound adoration of Christ's Mother, Mary?
>>1325373
fuck off catholicuck
paganism rules, cucktholicuckism drools
>>1325384
Catholics are the most successful pagans. You're just jealous of their numbers; at heart they're your brothers in idolatry.
>>1325373
And yet the original belief system was ultimately destroyed by this. Furthermore, now that christianity is declining in europe what do you suppose is going to happen to those practices that christians stole from other beliefs?
>>1325388
It's not pagan, no matter what you say there is a distinct difference between adorare and venerare.
Adoration is reserved for the most holy Trinity only.
Veneration is for the Saints and Holy Angels. This is deeply rooted in scripture, for example the Israelites in the Old Testament venerated the ark of the covenant. Adoration of the saints is strictly forbidden and is a mortal sin.
>>1325451
They'll be turned into Muslim traditions or cultural holidays
It is the whole of spirituality. Often.
I mean look at this guy:
>>1324205
In this thread >>1324071
Look what he is saying !
I mean there is a God that is sure. But they touch people's normal space to do things. Like MAD.
Why do they touch this? So that people are more weak and enslaved. And after starting such a thing it is easy to sort of fall in it. Some sort of strange obsession.
Do they need to have them weak and off their normal or a normal life so to be better able to work them as they see fit?
>>1325458
I adore my mother.
After she dies, I will not speak to her with the expectation that she will hear me.
Because I'm not a pagan.
Or atheist not willing to recognize that there is a God and a spiritual world. And by this hand everyone over to all sorts of mad philosophies.
I feel this could look a bit upset, which I don't intend to. Or be offensive that no discussion would be possible.
>>1325487
You are using the English language definition of "to adore" which has been corrupted. The official Church-recognized Latin definition of "adore" is different.
Elephants are tied to a pole when they are young. They can't break loose. But try it a lot. When they are bigger they can but somehow don't.
This must be the same problem here.
But there is a God and a spiritual world.
>>1323173
it certainly retarded science and knowledge
but it had many good things, to name one: the souls of the rich and the slave are equal. Before, it was believed that only the rich could get to the afterlife.
>>1325516
>This must be the same problem here.
So don't be dumb like an elephant and these fraudulent ties must just go.
>>1324366
>The Renaissance, humanism, and the Reformation sends Europe hundreds of years backwards intellectually and politically, disregarding most medieval innovations for bullshit.
>who was da Vinci
>who was Fra Angelico
>who was Donatello
>who was Botticelli
>who was Michelangelo
>who was Gutenberg
>who was Machiavelli
>who was Bacon
>who was More
>who was Shakespeare
>who was Milton
>who was Copernicus
>who was Petrarch
>who was Boccaccio
>>1325522
>it certainly retarded science and knowledge
This is true. But not only the fault of religion. As if only they have to think and have what is needed to follow a right path.
Being in contact with any area of science you must check for yourself if it is true what they want. Especially if they get money. There is more to say about this, that is not in this post.
>>1325522
Except that it didn't retard science and knowledge. It helped propel it forward.
It boggles the mind that people think the unrestrained superstition of paganism was somehow more advanced...
>>1325451
cultural holidays, and with muslims multiplying you can imagine they'll be demanding their share too, somewhere in the future.
>>1325544
>It boggles the mind that people think the unrestrained superstition of paganism was somehow more advanced...
Yes, how could Cicero, Lucretius, Socrates, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, Plato, Aristotle, etc. ever have come from a pagan culture? We all knew they were hardcore Christians
Gonna throw this out there, maybe the world held back Christianity from its true teachings.
Things like the inquisition and holding science back was from people who used Christianity as a shield and excuse for them to do what they did.
The true value of this religion is obscure and hidden, and is discredited because of the world's perception of what Christianity "is"
>>1325544
yeah, OK
>>1325544
>It boggles the mind that people think the unrestrained superstition of paganism was somehow more advanced...
I couldn't agree more. Also superstition is the right word here, the great share of our superstitions are pagan costums. The Slavic world is even more full of superstition, because they converted later and also retained a lot of pagan costums with saints replacing the old gods.
Look at Bosnians for example, just 1 century after officially being christened, they already converted to the bogomil heresy.
In Russia if you step on someones toe you have to step on the other one. Before leaving the house for a long time you have to look into the mirror at your reflection. Singing inside the house means you will lose all your money. There's tons of this stuff. And Russian women still are very superstitious. These things are all practices and beliefs rooted in Slavic paganism.
I also would like to note that all European forms of iron age paganism (Celtic, Germanic, Slavic) were very similar, both in practices and the description of their deities. Same goes for the Romans, they actually recognized Mercurius in Wodan, because of similar mythological aspects. Similarly, the origin of Santa Claus, Saint Nicolas (Sinterklaas) in the Lowlands, is a christian adaptation of Grandfather Frost, the original still exists as folklore in Finnic and East-Slavic land. In their version he wasn't exactly friendly to kids, if I'm not mistaken.
tl;dr: paganism never left us, the practices remained in superstition -still abundant amongst Slavs- and folklore
>>1325560
Platon >> all the rest of those guys
>>1325560
Greco-Roman civilisation yes, but there are many more examples of barbarian pagans like much of non-Greco-Roman Europe in those days.
Christianity brought a new set of morals that were unknown to pagan society.
>>1325600
And Platon was basically a proto-christian thinker, this was already confirmed by Justin Martyr in the mid-2nd century.
>>1325610
>>Greco-Roman civilisation yes, but there are many more examples of barbarian pagans like much of non-Greco-Roman Europe in those days.
Yeah and? Given time those peoples would have developed on their own.
>>Christianity brought a new set of morals that were unknown to pagan society.
lol no. Try repackaged near eastern morals mixed with the mysticism that was becoming popular in certain parts of the roman empire at that time with a certain amount of absorption of earlier customs.
>>1325572
This assumes that christianity isn't made up nonsense, like every other religion ever.
>>1325610
>Christianity brought a new set of morals that were unknown to pagan society.
Actually it didn't. Everything Christianity preached was already present at the time. The golden rule was already preached by Rabbi Hillel, and most of the end times stuff he got from the book of Daniel.
Christianity is little more than Judaism+, which is itself based on a set of religious themes from Mesopotamia, Egypt and Persia, which were all pagan cultures at the time.
>>1325576
The Church only opposes Galileo because heliocentricity was held as scientific knowledge ever since the times of Aristotle and Galileo didn't provide quite enough evidence to be fully convincing. In fact heliocentricity wouldn't be fully proven until Copernicus came around.
>>1325620
No he wasn't, there's zero evidence that he had any monotheistic tendencies, nor expressed any interest in Jewish religious themes such as redemption, salvation, a redeemer that was going to start the end times in which evil is finally defeated forever, all of those are directly out of the Jewish tradition and have no comparable themes within Greek philosophy
>>1325632
opposed**
They no longer oppose him :)
>>1325544
medicine evolved from pagan magic
chemistry from pagan alchemy
astronomy from pagan astrology
architecture from pagan temple building
>>1325626
It's not. True religious teachings (whichever one) teaches each person how to connect with God.
False religion is esteemed highly, that is the nature of the world (to some degree) is to hide the true teachings for a false appearance.
People do it with Christianity, Islam, etc. They use the religion to maintain a false cover when these religions actually take away the false covers that wrap ea ch individual in order to establish / re establish their relationship with God.
God is not outside of you, He is deep within.
>>1325673
>>True religious teachings
Wow, two sentences into the post and we already have the unwarranted assumptions.
>>teaches each person how to connect with God.
And again with said unwarranted assumptions. This assumes that a deity exists, that there is only one deity, and that said deity is male.
>>False religion
All theist religions are equally false in that they all make unverifiable assumptions about existence and human life.
>>1325692
It is very simple. When the world took over Christianity the religion decline and so did the world.
Christianity, to its true meaning, is not what the world did to it, not is it the common and accepted perception that everyone believes that it is.
The "deity" you refer to is the origin of all soul. If you seek and ask, it will be revealed to you. This is called phenomenon
>>1325704
Yeah no. This is nonsensical bullshit too. Christianity as we know it didn't exist before the Council of Nicaea.
>>blah blah blah standard apologist tripe.
lol
>>The "deity" you refer to is the origin of all soul. If you seek and ask, it will be revealed to you. This is called bullshit I made up.
Fixed.
Shouldn't religion just get bound in some way so that it can't hurt anyone and be probably more peaceful to atheists?
>>1325719
Christianity existed as Christ taught, and did not have a label until later.
When something is labeled, it becomes a limited definitions and people cannot break out of the paradigm of a definition as easily as they would like to.
If you honestly look for God and ask for Him, you will find Him.
>>1325670
And all of those things were improved upon by Christians
>>1325731
>If you honestly look for God and ask for Him, you will find Him.
If you honestly look for Enlightenment, you will find it.
Everyone says that kind of shit about their religion, you putz.
>>1325720
it has, gradually
The inquisition wasn´t overthrowed, people just moved on
>>1325735
So what? Those things would have been improved upon anyway. And I don't actually agree that gothic cathedrals are more impressive then the polytheist temples of the romans and greeks. Frankly I find stained glass windows to be a rather boring design honestly.
It's a wash. They preserved some books, engaged in some science and philosophy, but also destroyed some other books and suppressed some other modes of thinking. I don't know if a pagan Europe would have done better or worse.
>>1325743
Honestly, they're straight up tacky.
>>1325740
There is no final enlightenment, so you never stop seeking. That same level of knowledge is found in true Christian teachings but is hidden by what the world makes Christianity to be.
There is a truth of Christianity and there is an illusion to what people believe Christianity to be.
>>1325735
"no"
>>1323173
Humanity sets humanity back.
Humans chose to accept various ideologies. The ideologies did not choose us.
>>1325749
>There is no final enlightenment, so you never stop seeking.
Nope. The Buddha found true enlightenment, and following his teachings will lead you there. There is truth in Buddhism that doesn't exist in Christianity.
You're not special, and your faith isn't special. Get over yourself.
>>1323500
How did Christianity improve gastronomy?
srsly
>>1325762
christian empires brought species from Asia, potato and corn from the americas and so on...
>>1325741
Not enough (?)
Someone can just play on openness to God, who is real, and then say this >>1324205
How irresponsible. Fasting as an activity can be compared to a poison that can have effects if done right and planned. Being in a half/half fasting mode one's whole life is as bad as it gets to fast
I add that I have a full respectable faith, because atheists are on this wavelength but are mistaken about the existence of God.
>>1325758
There is no distinction between the teachings of the Christ and the teachings of the Buddha. They both go together like coffee and cream.
They are teachings first and religions second. The teachings by themselves are empty, and the religion that comes after splits itself into different categories and different opinions.
>>1325770
Can Christians really be credited with that? Because I'm pretty sure that shit has more to do with traders and explorers than anything else.
These threads are always such a shitshow. There's absolutely no way to determine if the things a Christian Europe did would or would not have been done within a pagan Europe.
>>1325743
>>1325748
>I think stained glass windows are boring
>they're tacky
Yea if you're a pleb who has no taste in fine art. They have a vibrancy and crispness that is unparalleled.
>>1325778
kek
You're illiterate in two different religions.
>>1325781
> Can Christians really be credited with that?
absolutely, explorations were approved and supported by christian kings and the church
>>1325783
>crispness
>>1325789
And you think pagans would have done any differently? Trade and exploration don't cease to be useful just because people are praying to Jupiter.
>>1325751
>Persians did science so therefore Europeans in the same period didn't
What kind of reasoning is this?
>>1325781
>>There's absolutely no way to determine if the things a Christian Europe did would or would not have been done within a pagan Europe.
Are we talking about specific groups of euro polytheists or euro polytheists in general? Because the Roman empire at it's height had little reason to head to iceland, but the Norse sure did.
>>1325785
How so?
At first they seem so different, but when you look at both teachings together, it... is... just... very good...
Try looking at the teachings by themself without looking into churches and different sects of these religions and the teachings by themselves are the teachings by themselves.
>>1325790
It's true though
>>1325798
>>Trade and exploration don't cease to be useful just because people are praying to Jupiter.
This so fucking hard. The material reasons that motivated europeans to seek a western route to india are not something inherent to christianity.
>>1325814
whatever, the sails had crosses
>>1324070
/leftypol/ revisionism strikes again!
>>1323173
The only thing that sets humanity back is subtle acceptance of evil. Which always spirals out of control, it even has greater effect if many practice something small. When many practice it, it's no longer small.
The exploitation of weaker and poorer nations for their resources, creating enemies when otherwise there would be none, the very definition of evil...
And you ask if Christianity set/sets humanity back?
It's non believers who follow their own judgements out of fears, their own ambitions out of pride, who take action on behalf of the very definition of evil..
And you ask if "Christianity" sets or has set humanity back?
As if there aren't men who get their rocks off on harming or ruling others under foot? As if God's word doesn't warn people about this?
This isn't about you OP, I don't even know you, but how desensitized has the world made people. That's not a question.
People have no idea what truth is anymore, just blinded by arrogance, thinking that just because their personal bubble allows them a sense of safety and opportunity to have delusions about how great they are in their little bubble of safety, they are free to believe anything and not have to experience the consequences of their beliefs...
An example:
I saw a video from a news story in England...they were doing a segment on men who want to dress up in puppy outfits and be walked outside by their wives and girl friends. Like some cosplay type of stuff.
Desensitized. Can believe anything they want. Not have to face any sense of reality or repercussion.
Christianity held the world back.
Yeah.
I like the idea of Zoroastrianism for a state religion - "There is only one path, and that is the path of Truth"
>>1324731
Most of those occurred around the 11th-14th centuries. I never disputed that there was a "dark age". But that age ended with the Carolingian Renaissance at the end of the 8th century, when the Medieval Period started up. The Carolingian Renaissance was also the period when Charlemagne started converting all the pagans to Christianity.
Galileo wouldn't dispute that opinion because many of his theories came about from piecing together the fragments of 14th century scholastic works. We already know that things once attributed to Galileo were actually discovered by scholastics like Oresme
>He shows that his method of figuring the latitude of forms is applicable to the movement of a point, on condition that the time is taken as longitude and the speed as latitude; quantity is, then, the space covered in a given time. In virtue of this transposition, the theorem of the latitudo uniformiter difformis became the law of the space traversed in case of uniformly varied motion; thus Oresme published what was taught over two centuries prior to Galileo´s making it famous.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Oresme
Grosseteste( late 13th century) was one of the first to really emphasize empirical experimentation, Galileo took it further obviously, but that does'nt negate his achievement.
>>1325327
Like what ? The Renaissance had literary and artistic merit, but was intellectually bankrupt for the most part thanks to humanism's focus on rhetoric over logic. The Enlightenment had little of importance save Kant. It was mostly about virtue signalling, bad political ideas, and trying to steal the thunder of the scientific revolution, which had nothing to do with it.
Whether or not the mass conversions were right isn't the point. I was explaining why I called the dark ages "Pagan" were the Medieval Period were all the innovations happened were Christian.
>>1325028
>I'm gonna call BS, was scholasticus' account written some 300 years after the fact?
That is incorrect it was written just 24 years after the fact. Indeed the account which states she was a satanic witch is the one that came 200+ years after the fact.
>>1325037
>I'm sorry, but did Western Europe really have an organized civilized society comparable to Mediterranean Europe before this period? No, they did not so how could they have fallen 'backwards' if they were never 'forwards'? This period can only be described as a time of progress for Western Europe.
Rubbish during Roman Rule London had a population of about 60,000. During the end of Roman Rule the city was literally abandoned, and even when it was refounded hundreds of years later its population was just over 10,000.
If that is your idea of progress then Pol Pot must be a hero to you
>>1326664
>We already know that things once attributed to Galileo were actually discovered by scholastics like Oresme
This theory Galileo is famous for,which led top his inquisition and imprisonment was looking through a telescope and describing the orbits of planets,how this can be attributed to a monk without a telescope is very confusing and misleading.
I dont know where you have copied this stuff from,but you should stop going there
>>1323246
>THE DARK AGES
Get the fuck out. Right fucking now.
>>1327002
>Evangelization is a huge part of Christianity. Pagan religions would provide no religious impetus for exploration
Coloumbus went west seeking a quicker route to India so that trade would be more effective
And the pagan Norse and Greek peoples still explored plenty
>>1327002
Evangelism is also one major reason why European conquests were so brutal. There's no reason to think pagan conquerors of Mexico would have burned every book they found, for example.
Back on the way where?
>>1325805
One teaches about a god, and the other one does not concern itself at all with divinities. Very different points. There is more to religion than just ethics.
>>1323173
No
>>1327161
The sutra mention the devas and divinities pretty frequently.
>>1326921
I never said that nothing he did was original, just that the idea that Galileo bursted onto the scene as something new and totally apart from the scholastic tradition is false. All you have to do is read the contemporary literature on the history of science to know this stuff. The idea that Galileo was entirely discontinuous from the scholastics comes from a time when our historical research on the medieval period was extremely shoddy. People are still holding on to completely discredited narratives about the period unfortunately, usually from people who write about the period as a sideshow to what they are actually proficient in. Specialists in the period tend to have a much better grasp of it, and avoid the pitfalls that most have fallen into.
Though unfortunately the Google Books version is not complete, this collection essays documents some of Galileo's Scholastic influences.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=V3frCAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Prelude+To+Galileo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipmcWBz7_NAhVL7mMKHbfVDTUQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=Prelude%20To%20Galileo&f=false
It's not like I've been reading this stuff from Catholic propaganda websites. This is just where we at in our knowledge about this issue in academia.
The mathematization of physics was in fact something that began with the late Scholastics. Later after the Scholastic Renaissance in the lat 16th century, mixed with the new technologies available to them, modern science was able to be done with both the deductive rigor of the scholastics and the empirical and experimental orientation that new technologies made room for. This is where guys like Galileo come in.
I would suggest looking into Duhem's work to make sense of all of this. Since his work was the first to point all this out, although it took quite some time to catch on in the academic mainstream.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Duhem
Others to check out
David Lindberg, Edward Grant, and James Hannam.
>>1326921
Also just to clarify, the thing that Oresme discovered that is attributed to Galileo is certain kinematic theorems, not his astronomy. Though Oresme was an interesting precursor on that front as well insofar as he predates Copernicus in arguing against the Aristotelian argument for a stationary earth, though he ended up accepting that position only insofar as he couldn't come up with anything better himself to explain the apparent facts.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nicole-oresme/#CosAstOppAst
>>1323173
No, because...
1)The academics, sciences, studies and all other intellectual matters did not grind to a halt. They simply went eastbound to Byzantium and The Arab world (Yes, Muslims we're actually scientific at one point in their history). The both of them continued to further human understanding of sciences for the next ~1000 years
2)Meanwhile...Europe continued to be as backwards and barbaric as they were prior to the roman invasions, only now they were heavily divided as there was no single dominant superpower to maintain law and order in the continent. Their "dark ages" were not a fall from grace, it was simply another chapter of the ongoing, tumultuous fueding and infighting that there had always been. Europe finally got their head screwed on straight when the renaissance came about, at which point the Scholarly Disciplines were brought in from the east, only more advanced than where their Greco-Roman predecessors had left them
>>1326921
Galileo didn't come up with the Copernican system either...
What is actually traditionally attributed to him is his laws of motion, which are actually copied from Buridan, and a few other things like the theorem of space traversed in case of uniform motion, which he copied from Oresme.
>>1327002
>greeks
>vikings
>phonecians
>hurr only christians can be explorers
You guys like Dark Age Europe?
Because that's exactly what the world would be like without Christianity. Well that or 100% durka Muslim.
>>1328613
This may surprise you, but Europeans were Christian in the dark ages
fuck why are there so many christians on /his/
>>1328980
Yes, but Christianity was also the only reason there was a Europe left to crawl back out of it.
Like it or hate it, the Roman Empire was damned either way, and not because of their religion.
If there wasn't a spiritual backbone to underpin European identity, they'd be reduced to a bunch of barbarians gawking at the ruins of Giants forever.
The Church and its doctrines may have impeded society for a time, but it allowed for a greater boon in the long run.
Reminder that the world we live in now is the result of the actions of, if not themselves, the descendants of Christian men.
>>1329019
I'd argue that there was a period of reduced prosperity between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Rise of the Franks.
If not a Dark Age in the Modern sense of total destruction of Culture and literacy a la the Greek Dark age, then at least a comparatively dim age between the fall of Rome and the Rise of the progenitors of Modern Europe.
But, yes, the common notion of the Family Guy Dark age isn't real.
Plus, we got all this kick-ass art out of it
> It is like I am the only one in the world that sees this
> In other words the only one with common sense
Christianity has been ''''part of'''', It is not useful to ask if Christianity set humanity back.
It is useful to see how it is a pre now. By being a commonly acceptable spiritual house.
I'm not saying what it is in substance in this post. But it has a number of mistakes. Atheists are also on this wavelength probably. But they say that there is no God instead looking at the mistakes of Christianity.
How about continuing this discussion in this direction?
>>1323173
Back on track.
>>1328541
>he copied from Oresme
>actually copied from Buridan
Yes and all these scholastic "natural philosophers" got their ideas from Averroes' commentaries on Aristotle.
So whats that? an 800 year gap where there was no new thought or innovation til Machiavelli?
>>1329032
>Plus, we got all this kick-ass art out of it
Early Medieval art is horrid. if you mean out of christianity, sure, but I do get tired of seeing Madonna and Child no. 137
>>1329838
Then you don't really get the point of their artistry.
The repeated subjects are actually great because you can get into the minds of these craftsmen.
>>1329849
What an intense mindset must have been in this craftsman
>>1328980
And Christianity is what brought them to an end.
>>1329826
You don't think laying the foundation for modern physics and calculus counts as an innovation?
>>1329885
Maybe they should have written a book about it.
>>1329866
What are you getting at, exactly?
>>1329826
No.
In fact, the rejection of Averroes and Western Philosophers who based their thought on Averroes was the key part of the intellectual climate of post 1277 Scholasticism( Look up the Condemnations of 1277 to get more on this). They also got skeptical of Aristotle to a degree as well ( especially Ockham). They were still doing commentaries on Aristotle, but their results were far more often " this has allot of holes in it" than in the mid 13th century. Come the 14th century the Merton School, Buridan, Oresme, Scotus, Ockham, etc were making genuine intellectual innovations, not just lifting things from Aristotle and reconciling it with the faith. You are treating one 50 year period in the Medieval Period as if it encompassed the entire thing.
>>1329902
They wrote many.
>>1329979
I was mainly responding to the idea that the Scholastics were just ripping off Averroes which is false.
Anyways, you already had major innovations before that as early as the 11th century with Anselm's ontological argument and the earliest forms of Nominalism in the work of Garlandus Compotista. You got the first breath of the Scientific Method in the 13th century, and major advances in logic with Abelard in the 12th century. And, while it is a relatively minor innovation, the whole genre of logical/mathematical riddles can be attributed to Alcuin during the earliest part of the 9th century. As soon as Charlemagne started the Carolingian Renaissance around 800 the Dark Ages were effectively over. Though they did take some time to really get going. It was more like 300 years, not 800 years.
>>1328997
>>If there wasn't a spiritual backbone to underpin European identity
Because obviously europeans didn't have religious belief before christianity showed up, oh wait that's fucking retarded.
>>1330033
>Anselm's ontological argument and the earliest forms of Nominalism
Are you seriously claiming that theology is actually worth something you tremendous retard?
>>buh buh science started in duh middle ages you guiz
https://blogs.umass.edu/p139ell/2012/11/19/the-renaissance-and-the-scientific-revolution/
Shut the fuck up christards.
>>1330070
>Copernicus
>Galileo
>Kepler
All of these men were Christians.
>>1330085
So fucking what? My own disdain for christardation aside, there's some assclown in this thread claiming that the renaissance made little contributions to science compared to the fucking middle ages and that is a gigantic load of bullshit.
Or are you claiming that the only reason why they made the achievements they did was because they were christians? If so you are fucking retarded too.
>>1330070
>https://blogs.umass.edu/p139ell/2012/11/19/the-renaissance-and-the-scientific-revolution/
The narrative you seem to be suggesting has been discredited for over 100 years now ( go read Duhem's work). Nor does anything in that blog post discredit the fact that Galileo, Copernicus, and co, were all building on what was left to them by thinkers like Oresme, Grosseteste and the Merton School from the late medieval period. Look through some of the links provided in this thread. No one is ignoring the accomplishments of those thinkers, we are just pointing out that they had medieval predecessors, and for some supposed innovations ( like the mean speed theorem) those thinkers actually did not innovate, as others in their own culture had beaten them to hundreds of years earlier. It's no different from how early 20th century logicians were trying to find solutions to self referential paradox's when Buridan already had succeeded in the 14th century.
I did notice however that they are using an outdated historical model, these days generally Copernicus marks the end of the Renaissance and the beginning of the Early Modern period, which began with a Scholastic Revival. The Renaissance and Renaissance Humanism is mostly 15th and early 16th century, come the mid 16th going onto the 17th century the Renaissance was over, and people started moving back to Scholasticism, and then the scientific revolution came about by expanding on what was left over from them. Galileo existed in this time period, not during what could really be called the renaissance.
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-science-make-little-real-progress-in-Europe-in-the-Middle-Ages-3
>>1330057
Nominalism isn't strictly theology, it is an important philosophical position .And yes, absolutely it is, especially natural/rational theology.
>>1330113
>The narrative you seem to be suggesting has been discredited for over 100 years now
lol no, you're full of shit, go jack off to medieval theologians some more retard.
>>1330052
>Because obviously europeans didn't have religious belief before christianity showed up
Those religions were not as important to their continued survival and cohesion as Christianity was.
Those religions weren't centrally organized or even literate.
The Latin Church provided at least some semblance of underlying European identity that allowed for interactions between the states on some level other than unorganized tribal warfare.
And cry as you may about the destructive wars that came to pass due that religion, but those states managed to survive and create a world unlike any other in human history.
>>1330134
Those religions were not as important to their continued survival and cohesion as Christianity was.
lol they would have survived anyway
>>Those religions weren't centrally organized or even literate.
They would have become so over time if they hadn't been persecuted out of existence.
>>The Latin Church provided at least some semblance of underlying European identity that allowed for interactions between the states on some level other than unorganized tribal warfare.
A common european identity would have evolved anyway, the heritage of rome would have been a big motivator regardless of what religion people followed.
>>And cry as you may about the destructive wars that came to pass due that religion, but those states managed to survive and create a world unlike any other in human history.
Which had sweet fuck all to do with abrahamic monotheism.
>>1330122
I can tell that you have a compelling case for your claims by your lack of responding to my points and sources, and how much you have to resort to insulting me. It does'nt reflect your insecurity over your poorly researched narratives being torn apart at all. Have fun with your fedora mate.
>>1330146
>They would have become so over time if they hadn't been persecuted out of existence
It doesn't matter, because they weren't when they needed to be, i.e. the fall of the Roman Empire.
Also, you have no evidence that they ever would have centrally organized, and there's no evidence to support that.
The old roman religion was essentially dead by the time Christianity took hold, and it wasn't the cause, it was a symptom.
Rome was awash in all sorts of mystery cults from the East when Christianity first started popping up, and it just happened to win, because some guy at the top saw a big Cross in the sky, and not some faggot killing a cow.
Christianity was generally friendly with the sciences. Monks and priests were some of the most literate and educated people in the dark ages and medieval ages. They preserved the knowledge of the Classical Age and added to it.
The few times we know of where Christianity conflicted with science, are known because they are rare events.
>>1330192
They also happened during one of the most distressed times in their history.
One of the biggest reasons Galileo was treated so harshly is because he started a dick waving contest with the pope during the height of the counter reformation.
That doesn't make his treatment right, but he in no way helped his situation.
>>1330202
(you) Feels>Reals
Science doesnt care about the popes feelings,science cares about facts
>>1330186
>>It doesn't matter, because they weren't when they needed to be, i.e. the fall of the Roman Empire.
It does matter actually because Roman civilization while nice wasn't the only civilization to exist. And there is nothing about euro polytheism that would prevent you from building an advanced society.
>>Also, you have no evidence that they ever would have centrally organized, and there's no evidence to support that.
Oh really? What was the thing that would have stopped say germanic polytheists from creating an organized germanic religion and a large and prosperous society? You have no evidence for the whole "only christians could build western civilization" claim.
>>The old roman religion was essentially dead by the time Christianity took hold, and it wasn't the cause, it was a symptom.
lol no, the old beliefs had to be persecuted out of existence. This started unofficially during the time of Constantine and became an official policy during the reign of Theodosius.
>>Rome was awash in all sorts of mystery cults from the East when Christianity first started popping up, and it just happened to win, because some guy at the top saw a big Cross in the sky, and not some faggot killing a cow.
You actually believe that stupid story? lol you are a fucking idiot.
>>1330231
>It does matter actually because Roman civilization while nice wasn't the only civilization to exist
At the time, it was the only one of any note in the Western World. Only China rivaled it, and they weren't doing anything anywhere near Europe.
>And there is nothing about euro polytheism that would prevent you from building an advanced society
Except for the fact that they're all disjointed and tribal.
>lol no, the old beliefs had to be persecuted out of existence
To exterminate it totally, sure, but the general trend was towards foreign cults.
>>1330231
>You actually believe that stupid story
I believe Constantine saw what he saw, sure.
I'm not saying Jesus actually came down to him, but there's no reason to think he didn't have an experience which he interpreted as a religious vision.
And even if he didn't, he still legalized Christianity and all other religions for some reason, which I concede could be tdue to his mother's christianity.
But the realest real point I'm trying to make you understand is that even if, and it's assuredly an if, the World we had today could have formed out of a Pagan Post Roman Europe, it certainly would not have happened in the 1500 years it did.
So if Christianity weren't necessary for societal progress of this magnitude, it was certainly a catalyst
>>1324731
>Galileo would dispute this opinion
no he actually wouldn't....
is this a dumb questions board ?
yes , yes it did and still is but don't worry mohamid will be worse. sticks and stones soon will be all that we have.
>>1323173
one of my favs....
>>1330264
>At the time, it was the only one of any note in the Western World. Only China rivaled it, and they weren't doing anything anywhere near Europe.
Not really relevant as again, another civilization would have been built, probably one populated by romaboos of one sort or another.
>>Except for the fact that they're all disjointed and tribal.
Everybody starts out disjointed and tribal, the Germanic tribes were gradually transitioning away from that state long before they were christians as such.
>>To exterminate it totally, sure, but the general trend was towards foreign cults.
A general trend torwards foreign cults is not the same thing as a bunch of imbecilic fanatics taking over and murdering anyone who disagreed.
>>But the realest real point I'm trying to make you understand is that even if, and it's assuredly an if, the World we had today could have formed out of a Pagan Post Roman Europe, it certainly would not have happened in the 1500 years it did.
Oh look, an unsupportable assertion.
>>So if Christianity weren't necessary for societal progress of this magnitude, it was certainly a catalyst
Oh really? Christianity caused all that huh? Not the exploitation of the new world by europeans seeking land routes to india that would allow them to bypass the ottomans, not the change toward free farmers in Medieval england that would gradually replace serfs and was probably one of the things that made certain that the industrial revolution would really take off in britain, not continued growth in scientific knowledge that occurred as the west gradually moved away from christian religious beliefs in the 19th century, none of that mattered, only the cult of the dead jew.
lol
>>1330315
Go back to /pol/ you uneducated shitposter.
>>1323173
After the fall of the Roman Empire, Christianity bound Europe together and maintained science and literature.
Christianity also played an essential role in our moral foundation, and therefore the foundation fo the modern nation state.
>>1329902
They wrote plenty of books, what do you think the Renaissance humanists burned?
>>1330954
No,one look at the titles "i invented mathymaticy" and "Its mye scentific,not yores" lead to them being used as toilet paper
>>1330095
Let's see:
Middle Ages:
- created the cathedral schools and universities
- founded modern physics
- invented calculus
- laid the foundation of the scientific method
- invented the mechanical clock
- invented eyeglasses
- invented the printing press
- invented a bunch of other shit from dry compasses and windmills to oil paint
- built the marvels of engineering that are Gothic cathedrals
Renaissance:
- well there's this one guy who said maybe the Earth revolves around the Sun, but everyone laughed at him and went back to burning witches and not bathing
The Renaissance was a dark age for science, deal with it.
>>1330964
The library of Oxford was literally burned. In France the works of Buridan were banned.
Until this Galileo guy read their books again 300 years later and thought maybe everyone throughout the "Renaissance" had been a gigantic shit-eating retard like you.
>>1330980
> cathedral schools and universities
Useless by any means
> invented the mechanical clock
Chinese
> laid the foundation of the scientific method
Aristotle
> founded modern physics
Aristotle
> invented calculus
Archimedes
> invented eyeglasses
Chinese
> invented the printing press
Chinese
> marvels of engineering
even Ancient Egypt pyramids was taller
>>1330994
Stopped reading at "universities are useless". Good to see you've admitted that you're literally defending the side of obscurantism.
>>1330999
They turned into something useful when enlightenment happened. Before they studied only useless things like theology and music.
>>1331032
this is bait
>>1330999
Universities grew more useful as the influence of christcuckoldry on them waned.
>>1330980
> As Milton knew, the imprimaturs sanctioning Galileo's book turned out to mean nothing. Soon after it was published in 1632 he was tried in Rome by the Inquisition, threatened with torture, and terrorised into retracting his defence of the heretical theory that the Earth is in orbit around the sun.
>Milton knew these facts because he had met Galileo, "grown old, a prisoner of the Inquisition for thinking in astronomy otherwise than the Franciscan and Dominican licensers thought". Talking to Galileo and other Italian authors, he was proud to find they looked to England as a land of freedom, and was disturbed by their bleak analysis of "the servile condition into which learning among them was brought; that this was it which had damped the glory of Italian wits".
The Italian Renaissance was killed by the counter-reformation. It is a disturbing historical example of what can happen when religion gets its own way.
>>1331060
The Italian Renaissance as an artistic movement was certainly not destroyed by the counter-reformation, which through Church patronage brought to a whole new level.
The Italian Renaissance as an intellectual movement consisted in the reactionary suppression of science and destruction of all medieval progress, in favour of a return to Aristotlean bullshit, as your quote describes. Galileo had to fight against the entire Renaissance intellectual establishment, even though he wasn't anything that wasn't already taught at the University of Paris 300 years earlier.
>>1331091
*he wasn't saying
>>1331032
The second most important departments at Paris and Oxford were natural philosophy.
>>1331091
The art of baroque painters owes nothing to observation, nothing to that loving examination of the visible that makes the art of Da Vinci or Titian, and the science of Galileo, so alive. Baroque art looses itself from nature,compare any of it with the Renaissance and it is a fall.
>>1331103
Are you implying the pic you posted is a fall, or do you not realise Caravaggio is a Baroque painter? Yes compare the two, Renaissance art looks flat and soulless by comparison.
>>1331110
Caravaggio's innovations inspired the Baroque, but the Baroque took the drama of his chiaroscuro without the psychological realism.
>>1323246
>>1323173
No.
The dark ages were not caused by Christianity. They were caused by Rome collapsing which started even before Christianity converted all of Rome.
Basically the slave economy failed cause their were no more Slaves to cheaply capture which is why the slaves got more and more rights, the for all intents and purposes feudalistic system of the colonatus was introduced. Without slaves to back the economy, the army was more and more difficult to finance, complicated things like steam heated baths could no longer be operated, and with all people becoming either unfree farmers or free warriors there was not much time and money to have philosophers and such around.
=> CHRISTIANITY DID NUFFIN WRONG.
It was all the slave economy transitioning to a feudal one (heck! even the history theory of dialectic materialism agrees with Christianity on that),l with the attacks of barbarian and muslim tribes on dying Rome of course not helping either ...
>>1331153
It's also that Rome was always kind of poorly organised and chaotic with very little concern for thinking beyond the immediate future.
>>1325576
>Still throwing out the over and over disproven "Galileo was unfairly accused" meme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlE7xvc4LoY
It is like ATHEISTS DO NOT CARE FOR HISTORY.
>>1331153
Daily reminders:
All of the late Roman emperors were christian
They closed the Academy of Athens and destroyed ancient writings
arithmetic is an arabic word
>>1331156
Well, there comes a point where you have to choose between learning about history and holding on to atheist myths. Most atheists choose the latter.
>>1331170
The first Christian emperor was Constantine, Rome's decline had already begun over a century before. The Academy of Athens was closed in 83 BC. And arithmetic is a Greek word.
![[Republican Noises].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/24gJmgm.jpg "[Republican Noises].jpg")
>>1331170
>All of the late Roman emperors were christian
Sure, but they weren't the cause of Rome's collapse, just inheritors of a doomed state.
If you want to be really real, the entire Roman Empire was the death of the Roman culture, it was like a supernova, grand and impressive, but a dying fit regardless.
There were a few Emperors like Claudius or Trajan who possibly could have stabilized it, but the writing on the wall was written from the time Sulla marched on Rome.
>>1323173
>this thread
>>catholics provide evidence, examples, specifics...address the opposing arguments.
>>>atheists provide memes, emotions, hyperbole....constantly move the goal posts.
>>1331197
> just inheritors of a doomed state
Your an expert at that hindsight thing arnt you
>There were a few Emperors like Claudius or Trajan who possibly could have stabilized it,
So none of the christian ones then-because they were too interested in the afterlife to worry about the state perhaps?
So then these christian emperors decide to get rid of their slaves by making themserfs,because you dont have to feed serfs do you?
>>1331197
> but the writing on the wall was written from the time Sulla marched on Rome.
go to bed Marius.
>>1331219
It's not really about religion, it's about fact.
Atheists have to deal with the fact that the world is a lot more gray than the evil Church Anti-scientists and the Atheist Martyrs of science like Galileo.
It's just like the Church has to deal with its history, like the persecution of Galileo, which is still unfair, even given the fact that he didn't make use of supporting evidence available from Kepler, and that he lived during the Counter reformation.
The World isn't black and White. The Christians didn't kill the Roman Empire, and we wouldn't be living in the Glorious Future with Robots and shit if Jesus, or the guys who made him up if that's what you believe, didn't exist.
The Christians did kill Hypatia, for example.
>>1331219
Catholics have their shit together when it comes to apologetics.
>>1331229
>The Christians did kill Hypatia, for example.
She was killed by Christians, but it had nothing to do with her being a scientist or a woman as militant atheists constantly claim.
>>1331229
this post....this is a good post.
>>1331221
>Your an expert at that hindsight thing arnt you
What?
>So none of the christian ones then-because they were too interested in the afterlife to worry about the state perhaps
No, because the Barbarization of the Roman Army had already been irreversible by the time of Hadrian.
That was the ultimate death knell of the Roman army.
By the time any Christian Emperor got to the throne, the Empire was already bloated and ready to fall in on itself.
It was too big, and the logistics of keeping it alive fell apart. Unable to expand, it stagnated and couldn't continue to run off of conquest.
>>1331240
>The Christians did kill Hypatia, for example.
>>She was killed by Christians, but it had nothing to do with her being a scientist or a woman as militant atheists constantly claim.
yeah Alexandrians had a long tradition of rioting that went back centuries before Hypatia.
also the meme about her death representing a major decline in the role and prestige of women is silly. women held a lot more power in post-christian europe than pre-christian.
>I'm the god-damned para-familias
>>1331246
Of course theres also the alternative view one might entertain, that when constantine stripped the frontiers of their legions it allowed the barbarians to enter the empire unchecked.
>>1331178
Based anon
>>1331429
>Lutheran
even better....
