In Christianity, God made creation out of love, especially for the angels and for humanity, whom he he made in his image.
Islam, afaik, God made creation for no reason except that he desired worship (Quran 51:56)
Can any Muslim correct me if I'm wrong?
Also, in Christianity, God loves you first, and then you love him back, but in Islam (iirc) God only loves you in return for your love. Is this the case?
>>1318373
i don't know much about islam, buti would like to remind you that christians have a whole angel order(seraphims?) devoted to praying God and his greatness.
>>1318373
Kill yourself.
>not knowing the Anunnaki created the Igigi to do the gods labour
Kill yourself, tripfag.
>>1318373
The Christian God only loves Christians. Everyone else is screwed.
>>1318409
In Christianity, or at least Orthodox Christianity, God's love is required to keep anything in existence.
>>1318373
>In Christianity, God made creation out of love
Not true. Let us consider that, overall, the massive majority of the human population throughout all of history will have been doomed to Hell, since Christians have never formed the majority of the world's population at any given time (this is assuming that all Christians will be saved, which is being generous, since various denominations hold that other denominations will also go to Hell). As such, the majority of the human race is bound to be damned, meaning that God's act of Creation will have had a net negative impact on humanity, since only a very small amount of the population will be saved.
If by performing the Creation the result for the human race was a net negative, then how can it be called an act of Love?
>>1318428
Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.
>>1318428
This babby tier bullshit.
People who never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus Christ are judged on their deeds and still go to Heaven if they were good people.
This is going by Church doctrine of Heaven as an afterlife, which Jesus never actually said.
>>1318428
Hell, in Orthodox Christianity, is the same as heaven, experiencing God's love very acutely. His love is often described as a light (as with halos) or a fire (Hebrews 12:29). If your relationship with God is bad, you hate his love (or are so ashamed before him you cannot lift face and the love makes you more ashamed), but that's all hell is.
>>1318441
There is so much cognitive dissonance in this post
>"God loves you so much that he makes you feel unbearably ashamed of yourself"
Here in the human world, we all that an abusive relationship. Usually happens because someone gets too possessive.
>>1318446
God doesn't force you to feel ashamed.
>>1318373
>In Christianity, God made creation out of love, especially for the angels and for humanity, whom he he made in his image.
Ephesians 1:11-12
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of
him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Is this a troll thread or are you just this eager to confirm your bias against brown people?
>>1318508
>Ephesians 1:11-12
And can you tell me what the purpose of Christ's incarnation was? I'll give you a hint, it's the most quoted verse in the Bible.
>Is this a troll thread or are you just this eager to confirm your bias against brown people?
There are plenty of Arabic Orthodox
>first for the original flood myth
>>1318523
>And can you tell me what the purpose of Christ's incarnation was?
To glorify God via soul redemption, that was that poster's point
>>1318542
>To glorify God via soul redemption, that was that poster's point
The motivation for the incarnation is illustrated in John 3:16
>>1318554
Through which we ultimately end up at Ephesians 1:11-12. Now we've come full circle.
>>1318570
Hence, God loves first.
>>1318439
>People who never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus Christ are judged on their deeds and still go to Heaven if they were good people.
The most moral thing we could possibly do then is to eliminate every reference to Christianity possible. That way, people will be judged on their morality rather than their credulity, and the proportion of good people in hell will plummet.
>>1318428
>to commit an "act of love" requires a positive outcome
It's about the intention at the time of commiting the action
>>1318742
Not if you're omniscient. Intent doesn't matter when you are 100% certain of the consequences.
>>1318439
>People who never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus Christ are judged on their deeds and still go to Heaven if they were good people.
Then telling people is basically screwing up a person's easiest way to heaven. It's like "now you know Christ and now you must join us or face condemnation".
Rokos basilisk to use a sillier example.
>>1318421
That sounds oddly pantheistic. Am I wrong in this judgement?
>>1318951
No, but you're close. It's panentheistic to be precise.
>>1318966
Go on eightchan and ask /islam/.
Here is just checkmate! Shitposting to be found.
Not limited to Islam. All Abrahamic faiths put worship first above all else. 51:57 - 60 puts it quite succinctly. God deserves to be worshipped. The human complex of understanding why He deserves worship can be many things (service, love, sustenance, hope) but He quite clearly commands it so it must be done.
>"God created us out of love"
>yet He won't intervene to stop human suffering, famines, earthquakes, drought, disease, cancer, disabilities, natural disasters, and all the misery these things cause
The Christian God sounds like a hypocrite and a tool
At least the Jewish and Muslim God is honest about the whole "tyrant-in-the-sky" thing
>>1319105
Nah they say its satan that controls the material, explaining bodyhorror such as glassbones however is where it gets a bit more difficult I guess.
>>1319105
This life is only temporary, Anon.
>>1319105
Not really. In Islam it's much more based on forgiveness.
Most of His mentions in the Qur'an are followed by 'most merciful', 'all knowing' and 'caring'.
>>1319178
He's forgiving. Within reason
>Allah forgives what is past: for repetition Allah will exact from him the penalty. For Allah is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.
Quran 5:95
>>1319161
Worship, yes. His sole motivation? Beyond our comprehension. See 2:30.
>>1319207
51:56 says worship is the only reason.
>>1319211
*Only that they might* is the closest you will find in major tafsirs. Not only as in the sole purpose.
>>1319221
How old are these tafsirs?
>>1319193
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, no hoor for you.
>>1319233
>sinning is "fooling" God
>>1319221
The earliest ones are from Muhammad's lifetime up until the Golden Age and Byzantine era. The contemporary ones are considered to be after, but outside of theological issues like the Imamate for example, they do not contradict each other.
*Theological as in Sunni or Shi'a tafsir, not different schools of thought.
>>1318373
>creates humans out of love
>tries to kill them out of hate
kek
>>1319247
It's not unjustified hate though.
>>1319249
And I mean in general.
>>1319245
I'm talking about the ones that back up your exegesis.
>>1319247
Ezekiel 33:11
>>1319249
>no guys you see, the holocaust had a noble cause!
hate is hate
>>1319253
All of them back my exegesis. Google tafsir, search the verse and compare it to the different exegetes. The only difference you will notice is some omit only, some add might, others have maybe, or they have all of the above.
>>1319255
>ya know I don't liiiiiike killing you guys but.....you had it coming
He just had good intentions to kill didn't he?
>>1319261
>All of them
You've read them all?!!
I'm just asking to quote the earliest one that readily backs up your statement and to give me a dating
>>1319264
He's talking about all death here, which is a product of the fall; this includes death from old age. See the next verse.
>>1319267
In fact, read all the way to 33:15
This is about a reverse from the fall, the "surely die" is directly about the fruit of knowledge. Christ is the fruit of life.
>>1319265
Start with the Quran. In 51:56 there is no Arabic word for only. In al-Miqbas' tafsir, the oldest one known to most scholars, he transliterates the verse; meaning he does not further explain it. In ibn Kathir's tafsir, one of the most popular exegetes in the Muslim world, he writes that "except to worship me" means to worship God, willing or unwillingly. To add to this verse, 51:57 to 60 are explained. God states to worship Him not because He requires it but because humans require Him. There is no mention of God's sole purpose of creation is worship. If you don't want these two tafsir, look at any other major Sunni tafsir. The words "maybe" or "might" have been added when the corresponding verses are explained as God stating we need to worship Him because He is the creator. Other tafsirs, will omit only and add "maybe" because of the understanding of a human's willingness to worship God (i.e. "so that they [might] worship me" - implying its consensual).
None of the tafsir contradict the meaning of this verse or its corresponding verses.
>>1319284
>There is no mention of God's sole purpose of creation is worship
But you just said "except". NO purpose *except*
>>1319297
"No purpose except" is not a translation of this verse. It's "I did not create them [except]...". Creation ≠ sole purpose.
>>1319308
Right, it's not a translation, it's an exegesis.
>>1319316
Which no exegete posits nor explicitly states. This is why people rely on tafsir and not go about interpreting the semantics of the Quran itself without an understanding of context. Although it's a very reasonable claim. Most Muslims believe it because it's simple and deserving. But to assume God's word exclusively would be difficult, if not heretical.
>>1319321
>Which no exegete posits nor explicitly states.
You just quoted one
>he writes that "except to worship me"
>>1318439
Don't they go to Limbo which is like poor man's heaven?
>>1319349
The "anonymous Christian" theology was approved by Vatican II.
>>1319161
>but not without destroying our subjectivity.
please elaborate
>>1319352
so its legit then?
>>1319161
>He sent his Son to die
but he is his son, and he resurrected himself and went to heaven
doesn't sound like he did anything or sacrificed anything to me.
>>1319105
That's the consequence of God giving us free will, bad things can happen
>>1318451
He's apparently forcing me into a position that he knows will cause me to react with painful shame.
>>1320263
How is an earthquake part of free will?
>>1320325
Voltaire pls.
>>1320325
That's the consequence of God giving us independence. Earthquakes aren't bad in themselves.
>>1318397
Every single angel order praise God - because they are thankful for boundless existence in joy - and they directly witness the works of God, then God always gives more and more gifts.
Seraphims delve in the radiance of God's love.
>>1318421
Since you are a girl, and you said from time to time that you want to become a monk - it's safe to assume that you're not a nun, and not in any way member of Clergy.
With whom blessing are you posting here, and dare to talk about orthodoxy?
Canon 64
A layman must not publicly make a speech or teach, thus investing himself with the dignity of a teacher, but, instead, must submit to the ordinance handed down by the Lord, and to open his ear wide to them who have received the grace of teaching ability, and to be taught by them the divine facts thoroughly.
Stop already - if you are interested feel free to read as many books with approval of Church as possible - but if you want to preach do it with a priest approval and at least a member of Clergy checking your messages before you send them.
>>1318397
Seraphim; the im makes it plural. One of them is a seraph.
There are four creatures that are placed before the throne of God, having four faces each; eagle, ox, man, and lion. They also have six wings and eyes all about.
It is these creatures that cry out "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!”
It is these four creatures, aka seraphim, who announce the release of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.
When satan was an angel, he was in charge of these creatures, and indeed in charge of the assembly of the angels, and of the worship of the living God.
>>1320325
Adam's free will caused him to sin, and the earth to be broken.
The cursing and breaking of the earth leads to earthquakes.
>>1318439
Your theology is not Christian.
Jesus would not tell us to spread the gospel if ignorance of the Law, and of the gospel, and of His sacrifice, provided salvation.
We all deserve to go to hell. Stop making up your own doctrine to relieve God of what you think is God's shortcomings.
>>1319284
Your demonology is impressive.
>>1320923
It doesn't provide salvation you dumb fuck, you still have to be good.
>>1320935
There are none good, no, not one.
Only God is good.
You are demanding that God put you on trial to see if you are "Good", when "Good" means "as perfect as the Father in heaven".
You will fail that test, utterly, merely by your post. And then you will be cast into a lake of fire.
Your "good deeds" are as filthy rags to a holy God.
>>1318439
>which Jesus never actually said.
Can't tell if ignorant of if lying from the pit of hell.
Matthew 25
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
>>1318446
Yes, you have abused God.
It's time you stopped.
>>1320940
Nice crazy heretic rant, Martin. Hope you're enjoying the pits of hell.
>>1320941
Yes and? Where does it say anything about afterlife?
Eternal life is something else.
>>1318373
Despite being a tripfag and a Christian at least I respected that you had extensive knowledge of the topics you talked about and did so in an adult manner..but this...
>>1320917
The four creatures in the revelations have nothing to do with seraphim.
There are nine orders of the angels that are divided into three hierarchies, each of which is divided into three orders: the highest, the intermediate, the lower.
The first hierarchy, the highest and closest to the Most Holy Trinity, consists of the SERAPHIM, CHERUBIM, and THRONES.
The God-loving six-winged SERAPHIM stand closer than all before their Creator, as the prophet Isaiah saw, saying: "And the seraphim stood around Him, each having six wings" (Isaiah 6:2).
>>1320971
I'll never be there. I hope you change your mind about going there too.
Psalm 14:1
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.
Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
>>1318373
The true lord is absolutely Impassable you Jesus worshipping polytheist Kaffir! God doesn't love. Go wash a black man's feet.
>>1320977
That is the afterlife, numb nuts. Eternal life or eternal torment.
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5
For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
>>1321019
The four creatures also have six wings, and are also seraphim.
Stick to the bible.
Put down Enoch.
>>1321033
?? what did you mean by that.
Read 4:6 - they have multiple eyes so at least you would think they were CHERUBIM.
They are unique creations of God - they have both the features of SERAPHIM and CHERUBIM and they also have a unique position and mission in heaven.
>>1318428
>I had sex to have children so that I could love them
>My children experience hardship in their lives (we are certain)
>thus I did not have them for the sake of loving them
You're entire argument totally falls apart m8.
>denominations
Men are fallible God is not, men make mistakes, God does not.
as long as we are right before God then we are right before God
But you might claim that these conflicting assertions undermine our certainty in a correct way.
Well, as long we are right by God, leave the delusional to themselves, they should not impede upon rational scholarly thought.
>net negative
I don't think you can determine this just yet.
It was deemed that all men were to live in peace but had freedom.
It would not be love if God did not give them freedom
"they made their war with God, and they got their reward"
>>1318446
>God loves you so much that he makes you feel unbearably ashamed of yourself
Even biology know that habitual safety and well being are not advantageous for a creature.
Hardship and struggle makes for much stronger and more interesting characters.
There is no cognitive dissonance, you're just assuming that objectively everyone thinks as you do and holds the same values in the same way.
>>1320291
According to you.
But if such is the case, were you not better for it when your parents pushed you to be social, or to get a vaccine?
>>1320896
This is about people teaching their own ideas as if they were wise men in public speeches, this isn't saying, "Don't talk about Christ except in the presence or with the approval of the clergy," that's ridiculous. If someone asks, "Is Christ Our Lord?" Are you going to tell me I have to call up my priest before answering, "Yes"? My priest said we should witness.
>>1321056
The words cherubim and seraphim are used interchangeably.
>>1321113
Hahah no it's not for you to interpret the dogma in a favorable way - it applies to all you do.
Please stop - the punishment is excommunication of the Church finds out what you do.
If you think you are very smart and holy - write a book get it approved and tell people to read it.
Are you an old calendarist? Oriental orthodox? You always seem to believe you are always right and you have all the knowledge in theology.
>>1321113
So you're back to being a girl.
You are one fucked up individual.
>>1321133
They are used in context of scripture revelation for two different creations.
>>1321113
Not becoming heretic - is not the same with preaching dogmas and theology in public.
If someone points out a knife at my neck and forces to to insult Christ and I refuse, confessing that Christ is God and rose from the dead - at worst I just recite the content of Nicaea creed - I do not preach.
If you wanted to preach you should do it in the church context, not preach what Church teaches you to heretics and pagans.
This is what Christi is telling you - stop ignoring God.
Matthew 7:6
Do not give what is holy to the dogs and do not throw your pearls before pigs, for fear that they might trample them under their feet, and then turn [against you] and tear you to pieces.
>>1321134
>interpret dogma in a favorable way
Interpretation of dogma is part of dogma
I see here you are, arguing canons with me. Do you have a priest approving your posts?
>>1321135
I never said I was a woman, in fact I've my best to prevent that impression in order to ensure my posting content was examined rather than obsessing over me as a person.
>>1321149
If someone asks you, "What is the difference between Orthodox and Latin Christianity," would you have an answer, or would you say, "I don't know," or, "I can't answer that without my priest present"?
>>1321163
Compared to you I did not teach anymore anything about orthodoxy here.
Canons must be followed - that's a fact not an argument or interpretation.
>>1321167
You tell him to go ask a priest or read catechism.
But you are so full of pride, even tho there's catechism written in English - you had to write your own and put it on pastebin..
You must always stay inside Church and have clergy approval - regardless of how you interpret it, people that thought they could preach alone eventually created sects.
It's your soul - feel free to do w/e you want, but If I was your priest - and found out what you done - I would excommunicate you for 40 days, so that you learn your lesson - if you kept repeating and the lesser evil would be to kick you out of Church then that would obviously happen.
>>1321180
>Canons must be followed - that's a fact not an argument or interpretation.
So you've never run into priests under the canonical age?
>But you are so full of pride, even tho there's catechism written in English - you had to write your own and put it on pastebin..
My work is not a "catechism", it is a rebuttal to arguments. A catechism doesn't deal with Nietzsche or Stirner or Jewish arguments.
>>1318373
>Islam, afaik, God made creation for no reason except that he desired worship
I thought Muslim philosophers held that he created because he had to.
>>1321232
The Muslims who invented scholasticism held a lot of ideas that would probably be considered heretical by most Muslims and Christians, they advocated deism.
>>1321242
Muslim philosophers were already influenced by Neoplatonic works though, even before Scholasticism. So I dont think they would.
>>1321180
>Compared to you I did not teach anymore anything about orthodoxy here.
A shame you haven't been spreading the faith, since I've managed to interest several posters, including a Jew, into attending Liturgy and look into converting.
>Canons must be followed - that's a fact not an argument or interpretation.
Have you told this to every priest you've encountered under the canonical age? I get the feeling you won't get around to answering this.
No canon prohibits talking about Christ or Christianity. I've spoken no public homilies.
>You must always stay inside Church and have clergy approval - regardless of how you interpret it, people that thought they could preach alone eventually created sects.
What sects are you referring to? You mean break offs from the RCC?
>, but If I was your priest - and found out what you done - I would excommunicate you for 40 days, so that you learn your lesson
You aren't my priest, you're a crypto-Latinist shill
>>1321263
Are you suggesting Averroes wasn't a deist?
>>1318373
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
>>1321282
You're an evangelical Protestant then
>>1321359
>if you evangelize, you're a Protestant
Your mindset is the most dangerous thing in the Orthodox Church, it's Phyletist to its core. It is just as dangerous as the ecumenicist heresy.
>>1321163
So you're "transgender" MTF now.
Yikes.
>>1321359
No way. We don't want him/her/it until he/she/it repents and gets saved.
>>1321411
No, I'm not remotely transgender, and never have been.
>>1321423
So you're a woman, and bring shame to any man who listens to you.
>>1321282
Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
>>1321290
Im not talking about Averroes, so I dont know how you got that.
Islamic God and Christian are the same God, anon.
>>1321282
>A shame you haven't been spreading the faith, since I've managed to interest several posters, including a Jew, into attending Liturgy and look into converting.
Not involved in this otherwise, but you've also managed to turn away several posters.
>>1321451
That's not the problem.
The problem is he/she/it can't lead people to the Lord, only to the Orthodox church.
And nobody was ever saved by a church. Ever.
>>1321501
>Posters who otherwise would have gone to Divine Liturgy?
Posters who with a gentler, less omnipresently pushy preaching may have considered orthodoxy otherwise. You're fanatically pushy, and the fact is with most people, the more you push, the more they'll pull away.
>>1321521
I've never, ever, ever been pushy about getting someone to convert. Not even remotely.
>>1321532
>starting continuous threads to slam and misrepresent every single idea that disagrees with you isn't pushy
Seems you and I have different definitions of pushy. Let's also not forget the countless threads you've derailed with your preaching.
>>1321501
1 Timothy 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
>>1321532
I have, because I know how to get someone converted.
You're lost, hon. You know some Greek and some buzz words from your papist lite church, but you are still lost.
Get saved, and then tell people how Jesus saved you.
Not "join my church". Your church is as useless as Rome.
>>1321548
>Seems you and I have different definitions of pushy
Could you cite at least on post to illustrate?
>Let's also not forget the countless threads you've derailed with your preaching.
I haven't derailed any threads. If you mean, for instance, arguing against Nietzsche from a Christian perspective in a Nietzsche thread, that's fair game. Nietzsche's philosophy is greatly tied to attacking Christianity, it's part of what defines it.
>>1321560
This is about not being clergy, not about women being mutes.
>>1321574
Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail over his Church. You are either in that Church, or outside of it.
>>1321591
*one post
>>1321591
>Could you cite at least on post to illustrate?
No, I'm not about to dig through the archives. If you don't want to subject yourself to some actual criticism, that's fine with me. Introspection isn't for everyone, here's hoping you grow up some day.
>I haven't derailed any threads.
Bullshit.
>>1321501
The Neo Platonic tradition of Islam
I've recently said some things without love, and I ask for the forgiveness to those I've said them to. Particular the Romanian poster, for calling him a crypto-Latin. I said that devoid of any love, and I beseech him for his forgiveness.
>>1321631
I mean which thinker were you referencing when you were talking about God having to create the universe?
>>1321614
Well if I ever upset you by being pushy, I ask your forgiveness.
>>1321654
The only time you've ever actually upset me is when you wind up willfully misrepresenting something that disagrees with you. You have a tendency to take the absolute least favourable interpretation of anything that isn't Orthodoxy. I'm not sure if it's because of legitimate disdain on your part, or an intentional misrepresentation in a bid to gain converts, but it's obnoxious.
>>1321671
Then I am full of folly and pride, and I ask that you forgive me, anon
>>1321687
That shit's weird too. Knock it off. It isn't something you need forgiveness for, and it is something I'm not going to think highly of you for until I see you change. That's just how interactions with people work. For what it's worth I don't think it's a mark of a bad person, just someone very ideologically committed.
>>1321699
I am very ideologically committed to Orthodoxy and I will not change that, but I will seek to show greater humility in all things, humility being the seasoning that must attend all virtue.
>>1321636
Avicenna, but I think necessary creation is pretty common in NeoPlatonism
>>1321591
It would be better for the Kingdom of God if you were mute, yes.
>>1321606
You're an idiot.
That means that Christians don't die and stay dead.
Gates don't attack people.
Christians don't invade Hell. The Hell that Jesus made FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU who trust their church to save them.
>>1321633
When are you going to apologize for pretending you're a born again Christian?
>>1321714
>I am very ideologically committed to Orthodoxy
Yes, your idiotic papist lite church is the only thing you care about.
You are lost.
>>1321633
This is some barmy shit, that we have self-flagellating fucking preachers on 4chan. Take it to your priest dude.
>>1321731
The word translated as hell here is "Hades" (a translation of "Sheol"), not Gehenna.
If Christ's Church disappeared for a thousand years and Protestants brought it back, it would have been prevailed over by Hades.
>>1321734
I'm an Orthodox Christian, which is born-again in the baptismal sense, but not in the Protestant sense.
>>1321760
No Christian will ever be cast into Gehenna. And again, the people in Hades left and went to heaven when Jesus rose from the dead.
The gates did not stop them.
Jesus conquered death.
Do you even Christianity 101?
No, YOU'RE AN ORTHODOX CHURCH MEMBER which means nothing to the Kingdom of God.
NOTHING.
>>1321760
>I'm an Orthodox Christian, which is born-again in the baptismal sense, but not in the Protestant sense.
>I took a bath, but I didn't get saved.
And you're PROUD of that.
>>1321777
Hades and Gehenna are not synonymous.
>>1321784
I was forgiven all my sins and reborn in Christ. Whether or not I will saved depends on if I continue to live in Christ, Christ will not save me if I forsake righteousness without repenting.
>>1321793
will be* saved
>>1321793
Weird religion, unpleasant, guilt-ridden, dour, it's sad!
>>1321785
>Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail over his Church. You are either in that Church, or outside of it.
You made no distinction, so I answered your idiotic assertion that your idiotic church is somehow going to storm the gates of hell some day.
It ain't.
Do you understand that Jesus made those gates of hell? That there isn't some crusade to invade hell? No?
No wonder you're so lost.
I'll just reiterate what I said above. No born again Christian goes to Gehenna. All go to heaven.
Nobody who has faith in their church to save them goes to heaven. They all go to Gehenna.
So when you think it's YOUR ASININE CHURCH that Jesus is referring to, when you don't even know that He was talking about death being vanquished, YOU'RE WRONG.
And until you STOP BEING WRONG, STOP POSTING.
>>1321793
I don't get how you guys can believe that a human sacrifice helps with anything.
I mean, do you also believe that all the Mayans and Aztecs who threw virgins into volcanoes were actually stopping volcanic eruptions and appeasing their gods?
Of course not, but it's interesting how you people basically believe the same thing.
>>1321793
Everybody's sins were forgiven at the cross. Hitler's. Stalin's. Charlie Manson's.
You're in the same boat as they are.
You cannot live in Christ.
You cannot maintain sufficient righteousness to be saved.
You cannot repent enough to be saved.
YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BEING SAVED MEANS.
>>1321815
It's certainly not hedonist, but it also isn't sad, it's a religion of rejoicing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a6-u_6dZ8M
>>1321829
All sins merit the death penalty.
The wages of sin is death.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.
The life is in the blood.
Jesus took everyone's sins onto Himself and paid the price of all of them, dying in agony so that we might live.
And instead of people having faith in Him, in His finished work, they misplace their faith in a church that assures them they're the only church going to heaven.
WHICH EVERY SINGLE CULT ON EARTH CLAIMS.
>>1321844
Holy shit.
Jesus made Hades/Sheol. Jesus made Gehenna.
Jesus made everything.
And Jesus made those things before He made the earth.
You know nothing.
You teach nothing.
You learn nothing.
>>1321849
Sheol is not a place, it's an ontological state of the spirit.
>>1321714
I don't expect or even want you to change your beliefs.
>>1319342
Except does not mean only.
>>1321903
It means "but for", which is synonymous with only, yes.
>>1318373
How do christians go around the fact that the new testament goes in a 180 degree direction in comparison to the old testament and judaism,and even go for polytheism depending on how some would perceive the trinity.
>>1321911
Not true. See the tafsir.
>>1321919
I'm sure.
>I drink only water
>I drink nothing except water
Same meaning.
>>1321916
The old testament predicts a new testament, a new covenant.
The Trinity is in line with Genesis 18
>>1321854
You know nothing.
You teach nothing.
You learn nothing.
Luke 16
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
Just because I know how insipid your responses tend to be, a parable does not name "certain" people, it does not name people at all, and it has a higher meaning than the plain text of the parable.
This is a story. A story of two men going to Hades/Sheol.
You do realize that Hades and Sheol are the same place, just one is a Greek word and one Hebrew?
Do you even know that much?
>>1321959
>You do realize that Hades and Sheol are the same place, just one is a Greek word and one Hebrew?
>>1321760
>"Hades" (a translation of "Sheol"),
>This is a story. A story of two men going to Hades/Sheol.
And within Hades there is distinction between those who died righteously, and those who did not, but this is a matter of state (it's not a place anymore than it's literal water being talked about); heaven/gehenna is the far more acute experience of God, inaccessible (with a few exceptions, like Elias) before Christ, ever since the fall.
>>1321916
Different covenant.
Different parties.
Different conditions.
Different rewards.
It's not really that difficult a concept. Men were trying to use their knowledge of good and evil to be like God, as they were following satan's gospel as told to Eve.
God gave Man the Law to show that such a thing is impossible.
Jesus came down to preach that not only were the Jews not following the Law of Moses, but that in order to be like God, on your own, you had to do many more impossible things like turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, give the thief your cloak too, and have no man hold anything against you.
The old covenant had no way to know the living God; it was all fleshly and earthy containing only offered blessings and real curses here on earth, and had nothing to do with the afterlife.
The New Covenant is Jesus' Last Will and Testament, if you will, and only came into effect when the testator died. It is a covenant in His flesh and blood, broken and shed for us, and that by believing He is Who He says He is, and did what He did, we are saved from the consequences of being born spiritually dead.
"I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life; no man comes to the Father but by Me."
--Jesus of Nazareth
>>1321916
>How do christians go around the fact that the new testament goes in a 180 degree direction in comparison to the old testament
You literally have to know absolutely nothing about Christianity to even think this
>>1321976
It's a place.
With a gulf between Paradise and Torment.
With a man asking for a drop of water for his tongue, as he is in torment.
It's like you can't read English.
>>1321976
>And within Hades there is distinction between those who died righteously,
YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW THIS IS ACCOMPLISHED.
>>1321992
>It's a place.
Is it in timespace? If not, then describing it as a "place" is meaningless.
>>1322020
I have to confirm you as an idiot. Sorry.
I gave you the entire story.
Abraham comforting Lazarus, waiting for Jesus to set the captives in that fold free.
And you with your dopey questions, not understanding anything.
Tell me, where God lives, where the throne of God is, is that a timespace?
>>1322034
God's essence is wholly transcendent, but God's energies are wholly immanent and omnipresent in every point in every time as well as reality beyond points and places. God is an infinite being.
>>1322034
>dopey
Oh you're the guy from that hell thread. You should adopt a name out of kindness to the other posters.
>>1318373
Say [O Prophet]: "If you LOVE God, follow me, [and] God will LOVE you and forgive you your sins; for God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace." - 3:31
AMA OP
>>1324096
the danger of sin is the repition after repentance
ex: you fuck a girl before marriage, you can be forgiven
but do it over and over it becomes less likely that you will be forgiven
>>1324096
>Quran 5:95
oh and its not even the full verse
O ye who believe! Kill no wild game while ye are on the pilgrimage. Whoso of you killeth it of set purpose he shall pay its forfeit in the equivalent of that which he hath killed, of domestic animals, the judge to be two men among you known for justice, (the forfeit) to be brought as an offering to the Ka'bah; or, for expiation, he shall feed poor persons, or the equivalent thereof in fasting, that he may taste the evil consequences of his deed. Allah forgiveth whatever (of this kind) may have happened in the past, but whoso relapseth, Allah will take retribution from him. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong).
basically you cant hunt during pilgrimage, if you did it in the past you are forgiven, but not after
step it up
Does the bible warn about doctrines that the majority of the people of the world approve of?
Y/N
>Oh forgive me my transgressions for I am an just an 'umble poster
>a very very very 'umble poster
>Truly I am the lowest of the low only content to spend my days spreading the truth of orthodox dogma with nothing but a trip to protect me and no thanks, but I wouldnt have it any other way for its the 'umblest life
>>1324108
That's a great example of slave vs master morality. I give you life but don't eat
>>1324115
Greek Orthodox is the best translation in English
>>1324119
why? its just a rule dont hunt during pilgrimage
and yes we are slave
To the muslims in this thread what book is the best source of apologetics?
Is being islamic incompatible with living in the west?
>>1324374
>To the muslims in this thread what book is the best source of apologetics?
quran
>Is being islamic incompatible with living in the west?
no its compatible, because of freedom of religion, but the west is not compatible in islamic countries
>>1322045
God became a man.
That STILL eludes you.
>>1322046
Thanks for the advice, spawn of satan.
Pass.
>>1324091
Allah forgives nothing; he's satan. Even in your ridiculous book, allah forgives at whim and no price is ever paid by the criminal or by allah for the injustice done.
allah is not just. allah is not righteous. allah is not love.
allah is a trickster. allah has enemies. allah hates his enemies. allah is a plotter. allah is a planner.
YHWH has a son named Jesus.
allah has no son.
Not the same being.
God and allah/Hubal./Ba'al are not equally opposed.
>>1324115
Specifically, and calls them accursed.
>>1325469
People are killed for leaving islam.
People are killed for not joining islam.
People are killed by islam.
Societies are killed by islam.
Nations are killed by islam.
Progress is killed by islam.
>>1325497
>god cant forgive who he wants
>>1325502
:^)
>>1325529
Forgiveness has a price. The real God, not the devil you call allah, paid that price on the cross.
>>1325529
If you don't want to follow Mohammad into hellfire, I suggest you read "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" by Nabeel Qureshi, and take it to heart.
>>1325563
Your pic is defective. The crucifix of the monsters you depict, which includes Hitler and his swastika variation, have Jesus still on the cross.
The empty cross is for Christians, not the bloody savage pagan Catholics.
Learn the difference. It can save your life.
>>1325574
a-anon...what about t-the puritans who outlawed dancing, murdered """witches""", and did a bunch of other nasty t-things?
>>1325568
>>1325565
Salaamu alaikum wa rahmetullahi wa barakatuhu, my friend.
I hope you're all doing well.
Just wanted to leave a reminder, nomatter how much you slander the prophet and his religion, the gates of repentance, the gates of Jannah are open.
May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala lead you to the right path and let the flower of imān grow in your hearts.
Jabir ibn Abdullah reported: When the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, began his prayer, he would exalt Allah and then say, “Verily, my prayer, my rites, my life, and my death are for Allah the Lord of the worlds. He has no partner and with this I have been commanded and I am among the Muslims. O Allah, guide me to the best deeds and the best character, for no one guides to the best of them but you, and protect me from evil deeds and evil character, for no one protects from them but you.”
عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ قَالَ كَانَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ إِذَا اسْتَفْتَحَ الصَّلَاةَ كَبَّرَ ثُمَّ قَالَ إِنَّ صَلَاتِي وَنُسُكِي وَمَحْيَايَ وَمَمَاتِي لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ وَبِذَلِكَ أُمِرْتُ وَأَنَا مِنْ الْمُسْلِمِينَ اللَّهُمَّ اهْدِنِي لِأَحْسَنِ الْأَعْمَالِ وَأَحْسَنِ الْأَخْلَاقِ لَا يَهْدِي لِأَحْسَنِهَا إِلَّا أَنْتَ وَقِنِي سَيِّئَ الْأَعْمَالِ وَسَيِّئَ الْأَخْلَاقِ لَا يَقِي سَيِّئَهَا إِلَّا أَنْتَ
>>1325568
>Nabeel Qureshi
hes a known liar and does fake debates
why do you chritians always resort to name calling and are so cultish? creepy bastards
>>1325574
>pagan catholics
>literally derived from chalcedonian christianity
>>1321844
>Hades is a product of the fall, not Christ
Christ made the law of reality that caused the fall to result in Hades, knowingly.
>>1325469
>quran
Got any material for agnostics? Ive read the Quran already
>>1319105
It never ceases to amaze me how many people believe that an ideal world would be one without suffering, famines, earthquakes, cancer, etc.
Have you ever sat down and really thought about how awful it would be to live in "Heaven" for eternity?
>>1325710
Straight outta Babylon.
>>1329183
>islam is evil because muh birth rates
Well, start breeding then, you fuck up
>>1329210
>muh muh muh
not an argument
>>1325589
What is wrong with condemning witches to death?
You want a city where crazy women dealing with satan steal babies, poison wells, and blight crops?
Are you insane?
>>1325593
Thank you for your kind words, but I cannot make sense of them in light of 1400 uninterrupted years of violence, slavery, pedophilia, apostasy and blasphemy.
It is good you believe them though.
It is good you know that I do not.
>>1325650
Nobody but Jesus ever lived an entire lifetime without lying, so calling Nabeel a liar is kind of meaningless.
Pointing out a lie, and a material lie, that you accuse him of, well, that might be useful.
I expect it's just something you don't agree with, however, and not an actual lie.
Daily Reminder that Islam is a Christian cult.
>>1327841
How about this?
How about "better than you can possibly imagine"?
How about that?
After all, that's what God promised, and God always delivers.
>>1325650
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgsrnmzxEUY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERou_Q5l9Gw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFNc1JEMl3Q
>Norway deports Muslims, Violent crime rates drop
http://www.truthorfiction.com/norway-targets-muslims-for-deportation-crime-rate-drops/
>'Moderate' Sunni Muslims all agree stoning homosexuals to death is A-Okay
[YouTube] Norway - All Muslims agree Stoning is OK - "Moderate" Muslim "Peace" Conference (embed)
>Muslims make up 8% of the population in France, but nearly 70% of the prison population
http://therightscoop.com/muslims-make-up-8-10-of-french-population-but-60-of-frances-prison-population-irshad-manji/
>164 verses in the Koran preach hatred and violence towards non Muslims
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html
>40% of UK Muslims want Sharia Law in the UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
>1 in 3 British Muslim students backs killing for Islam
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html
>Six Muslim schools in the UK at risk of radicalising students
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30129645
>Islam behind more than 250 terrorist attacks in the year 2015 alone
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2015.htm
>Adult Muslims kill 132 school children
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Peshawar_school_massacre
>Muslim rape gang rapes 1400 white british children
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal
>More Muslim rape gangs across the UK
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/08/29/muslim-rape-gangs-the-disturbing-role-of-britain-s-leading-child-welfare-charity/
And there's 5 million of them in France. That should give you an idea how many there are plotting shit, or know people plotting shit and say nothing. We all know the 'moderate' ones sympathize with the terrorists behind closed doors.
ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06 http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY
People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq. http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war
YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children: http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/04/06/32-of-palestinians-support-infanticide/ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities. 27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate. http://www.scotsman.com/?id=1956912005 http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist.html
Pew Research (2013): At least 1 in 4 Muslims do not reject violence against civilians (study did not distinguish between those who believe it is partially justified and never justified). http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf
Pew Research (2013): Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda. Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban. 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say. http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/
Palestinian Center for Political Research (2015): 74% of Palestinians support Hamas terror attacks. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/193395
Pew Research (2014): 47% of Bangladeshi Muslims says suicide bombings and violence are justified to "defend Islam". 1 in 4 believed the same in Tanzania and Egypt. 1 in 5 Muslims in the 'moderate' countries of Turkey and Malaysia. http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/
remember kids, ISLAM IS NOT THE ISSUE
>>1329254
>check the sample sizes
Dropped
>>1329279
t. Abdul
>>1329279
>Facts trigger me.
t. Mohammad Mohammad Mohammad
>>1329274
Most of the victims of those crimes were also Muslim.
As for your other statistics, you're proving the point that a minority (albeit an alarmingly large minority) of Muslims are fundamentalists/extremists (Salafis)
The Salafi ideology is the tafsir (interpretation) of the Quran by scholars such as ibn Taymiyya, ibn Qayyim, and bin Abdel Wahhab, which calls for the death of anyone who does not subscribe to the "Sunni" strain of Islam (who are the Muslims on the receiving ends of those terror attacks you're using to demonize the rest of them)
The people who are pushing this state-sponsored Salafist ideology are none other than #1 US pal Saudi Arabia.
Friendly reminder that so long as Saudi Arabia exists and/or receives Western backing, this shit will never end, and your targeting of regular old Abdul who's trying to live his life for his beliefs plays precisely into the hands of the Salafists who are literally "GAS THE KIKES, RACE WAR NOW"-esque fanatics
>>1329298
>Most of the victims of those crimes were also Muslim.
What difference does that make? I wouldn't condemn it any less
>The people who are pushing this state-sponsored Salafist ideology are none other than #1 US pal Saudi Arabia.
>Friendly reminder that so long as Saudi Arabia exists and/or receives Western backing, this shit will never end, and your targeting of regular old Abdul who's trying to live his life for his beliefs plays precisely into the hands of the Salafists who are literally "GAS THE KIKES, RACE WAR NOW"-esque fanatics
I agree, it doesn't mean that regular old Abdul trying to lead a good life doesn't have secrets, isn't supporting salafism or isn't trying to subvert his religious enemies
>>1329312
>I agree, it doesn't mean that regular old Abdul trying to lead a good life doesn't have secrets, isn't supporting salafism or isn't trying to subvert his religious enemies
Abdul is being brainwashed by US "allies" into killing US "enemies" as well as Americans themselves.
It's time to cut off the tumor that is Saudi Arabia from national politics, and denying refugees entering the West is difficult to turn down, I know, but strategically a godsend for Salafists who want to radicalize them and say "See! Look what the enemies of what we're saying have condemned you to!"
I'm certainly not saying it can be solved tomorrow, all I'm saying is that this issue has many facets and layers to it, and is not as simple as saying #NotAllMuslims or #AllMuslims as the left and right respectively would have you believe.
![Angry-Muslim-Guy[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/bREe5w0.jpg "Angry-Muslim-Guy[1].jpg")
>>1325650
>are so cultish
Coming from Abdul Hakeem who grows pubic hair on his neck and chin because his cult of Muhammed says that he should emulate a warlord and pedophile as much as possible
>>1329371
>Mohammad was a pedophile
When will this meme die?
Aisha's age was exaggerated by hadith writers to prove she was Mohammad's most "pure" wife
Their marriage was consummated when she hit puberty lad
>>1318373
Muslims believe that Allah created man because he is literally "the Creator," and he wouldn't be if he didn't create things that could recognize him as such.
>>1318373
OP, at the very least in Alevi islam, god created the universe and humanity out of love. Humans are the apex of his creation, his/her greatest revelation and are thus above petty thing such as holy books.
God is an abstract concept, closely paired with divine love, and since reincarnation is allowed within Alevi Islam, all adherents will re-incarnate until they are the perfect human being "al-insan al-kamil" and once perfected will join god in a singular unity
>tfw shamelessly shilling because I hate the image of islam as made out by the sunni/shia
>>1329214
That's pretty much what he's saying
>muslim minority has higher birth rates
>that's why in x years we'll be all gone
>>1318421
What a contrived belief. Totally childish.
>>1329518
>>tfw shamelessly shilling because I hate the image of islam as made out by the sunni/shia
The Sunni/Shia schools of thought make up the exoteric part of Islam whereas schools like Alevi Islam make up the esoteric part. The two types are deeply intertwined--there can't be one without the other.
Secondly, throwing your brothers under the bus is greatly un-Islamic. I can't speak for the Sunni brothers as I'm not one, but the Ayatollah Sistani was nominated several times for a Nobel Peace Prize by non-Muslims, so clearly our "image" is just fine.
>inb4 Iran
Iran is doing what is necessary to curb Saudi influence in the region. Their only mistake, in my opinion, is helping Palestine over Israel.
>>1329525
Yeah, he also said that they're violent and are willing and able to use violence as a political tool
Stop feigning ignorance you dumb hippie retard
>>1329538
>so clearly our "image" is just fine.
A monolithic religion that refuses to change? filled with backward ideologies that clamour over petty things like creed, sex, and other life styles/ways?
Fuck that imagery, I have no idea what you're smoking if you think Islam looks fine from the outside.
>>inb4 Iran
they greatest mistake you made was embracing shia islam over Qizilbash/Batiniyya Sufi/Alevi
>>1329547
>A monolithic religion that refuses to change? filled with backward ideologies that clamour over petty things like creed, sex, and other life styles/ways?
I don't know what version of the Quran you're reading in the Alevi school, but the Quran sets prescriptions for all aspects of life, and it is also a piece of poetry and a historical document.
And it is changing within the Shia school, thanks to debate--look at Iran now vs 20 years ago.
You're delving in sophistry if you're meaning to tell me that Alevis somehow deny "the 'shackles' of religion, bro" and that objective morality doesn't exist within Islamic doctrine.
>>1329210
It's a reasonable position. Even the most backward races naturally loose the disposition to have large families as they get access to more modern living standards and technology. In modern society, having fewer children is better for one's own personal development and fulfillment and better for society as a whole (the knowledge economy benefits more from diverting resources to as few children as possible) and a more ecologically sound decision.
But if you believe the ultimate purpose in life is to proselytize and grow your faith, then these pressures to have fewer children don't apply as much. Some people might like to have large families even without cultural pressure. But if your religion teaches that family is a worthy goal for all humans, you're confounding natural instinct to some extent, and possibly subverting the interests of your children, if you have a potentially conflicting interest to curry favor with the heavens, depending on how devout the community is / how strong the compulsion is.
I don't think anyone will go extinct any time soon, but obviously more representation from a community of athe particular mindset / political persuasion / culture is going to change the characteristics of the society as aa whole in that direction, whether or not these will be the most ideal characteristics for a given society.
This is probably true to different extents for all religious communities moreso a threat from certain teachings / larger-sized communities / faster growing communities.
>>1329547
Also
>swearing during Ramadan
baka lad
>>1329558
>I don't know what version of the Quran you're reading in the Alevi school
You should do your research, because aint no one really reading the Quran over here
>Quran
has been manipulated and changed by the Umayyads. Its a load of bull. The real quran, the real message is Humanity.
>>1329571
>Ramadan
No self respecting Alevi fasts in Ramadan thats not in our sect
You could at least read the wiki
>we have no mosques
>we have no separation of gender
>we have no fasting (except muahrrem/Xizir)
>we are left leaning/secular
I wish the importance of women wasn't thrown away in religion as being subservient entities built to get fucked and insemiated.
>>1329579
>has been manipulated and changed by the Umayyads. Its a load of bull. The real quran, the real message is Humanity.
There have been Hafez'es (people who have memorized the Quran) from both Shia (who opposed the Umayyads vehemently) and the Sunni (who are divided on the issue, usually in favor of opposing Umayyads) who have been keeping the Quran for millennia.
While this is a good argument for Hadith questioning, there have been Hafez since Muhammad's era up until today. Unless Muawiyah somehow created an Orwellian mind control society 1300 years ago, the Quran is more or less the exact same as when the Prophet recited it.
And secondly, I couldn't fathom a single reason that fasting during the month of Ramadan would give Muawiyah/Yazid--even if the Quran were corrupted, some of it would have to have remained--and verse on Ramadan has virtually no political advantages to include in, so Occam's razor would say it was part of the "original Quran."
And I'll admit, I only know about the Mevlevi and Naqshbandi Order of Sufis, who imo are much more agreeable.
>>1329603
>who have been keeping the Quran for millennia.
Do not rely on word of mouth
>Hadith
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> Unless Muawiyah somehow created an Orwellian mind control society 1300 years ago
FYI, I'd literally studed history of islam/islamic empires in uni (not my major, I wanted to though). The ummayyads enforced their own version and literally destroyed all other versions they could get their hands on
>the Quran is more or less the exact same as when the Prophet recited it.
Too bad so is the muslim society, top kek
>Ramadan
so what if I dont fast? I aint no less muslim for not doing it
> I only know about the Mevlevi and Naqshbandi Order of Sufis
Any yet you're trying to argue against my sect
> who imo are much more agreeable.
Which is why my people have been subjected to massacres, because we are progressive and different
>>1329619
t-thanks
>>1329641
>Do not rely on word of mouth
Word of mouth that is identical to other words of mouth, words that lay the foundation for every other Muslim's Islam except apparently the Alevi sect (as per your own words)
>FYI, I'd literally studed history of islam/islamic empires in uni (not my major, I wanted to though). The ummayyads enforced their own version and literally destroyed all other versions they could get their hands on
Clearly not well enough, since nearly all theologians and Islamic studies majors disagree with you. There were rebel groups against the Umayyads that kept the same Quran, Shia that kept the same Quran, etc. etc. The hadiths are the only things you could say were corrupted, as I said in my earlier post.
>Too bad so is the muslim society, top kek
>so what if I dont fast? I aint no less muslim for not doing it
Slandering the Prophet and the way he lived certainly makes you less Muslim, however
>Which is why my people have been subjected to massacres, because we are progressive and different
My people have been subject to massacres as well, up until today (see: Iraq), doesn't mean anything.
I hate to insinuate takfir, but if you don't acknowledge the hadith or Quran in the basis of how the Prophet lived, what makes you different from your run of the mill Deist?
>>1329641
>so what if I dont fast? I aint no less muslim for not doing it
Top kek
Sounds like a fun thread. Do people always bully this Constantina every thread?
