How does /his/ feel about sola fide?
>Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.
>The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works". All mankind, it is asserted, is fallen and sinful, under the curse of God, and incapable of saving itself from God's wrath and curse. But God, on the basis of the life, death, and resurrection of his Son, Jesus Christ alone (solus Christus), grants sinners judicial pardon, or justification, which is received solely through faith. Faith is seen as passive, merely receiving Christ and all his benefits, among which benefits are the active and passive righteousness of Jesus Christ.
>>1293241
It's Biblical.
>>1293244
Doesn't James say you are not justified by faith alone tho?
if you're just asking how I feel about it, it's gay faggoty queer shit.
>literally nothing you do in life matters, good or bad, just that you love meeeeeeeeeeeeee
such an overtly dickheaded concept could only be created by mortal men, and obviously not the principal of any god worth having faith in.
I'll preface this by saying I'm a Catholic, so Protestants may feel free not to believe me, but isn't this all a massive misunderstanding?
Near as I can tell, Sola Fide is the result of Luther throwing a shitfit about the Sacraments. He didn't like the outward conveyance of inward grace, or something along those lines. He didn't like the idea that the acts of the Church could convey supernatural grace without any strong show of faith; he saw those acts as 'works.'
But, and this is important: those acts are all manifestations of works, yes? That's what the Epistle to James is ultimately getting at. We have these works, but they are only outward manifestations of true faith. If you have true faith, you will do Christian works, because a true faith will generate Christlike actions on the part of the one who has that faith. A true faith is a living, breathing faith that necessarily creates good works.
So, again, as near as I can tell the only reason Sola Fide as a doctrine exists is based off a colossal misunderstanding by Luther. Am I wrong?
>>1293283
Luther wanted to remove James from the Bible, he didn't because his followers got really upset.
>>1293241
So you're saying that I could do whatever I want without cosmic retribution, so long as I held faith in jesus in my heart?
I'm curious, and I'd actually like to ask: does this make works meaningless in the eyes of god? Or is this faith expected to move us to works, and that works can only be resultant of faith?
Or am I missing the point here? Because honestly, as chafing as it is to an agnostic, universal codes of ethics sound preferable.
>>1293270
>misinterpreting the concept
I bet you also want to pay a load of money just to have your soul redeemed faggot
>>1293330
Everyone sins, but not everyone is saved, and being saved comes through faith, not works.
>>1293335
Reminder that Christ gave the Church total power to forgive sins, and didn't specify the mechanism.
If you get butthurt about this maybe you don't have absolute faith in the Church, which Christ founded.
>>1293351
Faith in what though? Faith in god? What if people have different concepts of god? What if people weren't taught right, and have the wrong kind of faith?
Can faith in ideas that god represents, be used in place of god them self, in the case of the virtuous pagan?
>>1293375
Christ did not give the Church the power to charge for the mechanism, or any other Sacrament..You can certainly prescribe giving money as part of a penance, but the money doesn't have to be given in tithes, the person can give it to any charity so long as it is for a cause in line with Christianity; and this can only be prescribed if actually makes a difference, it's based on how much the person makes; if they don't make much, it can't be as much as if they're wealthy--and if they are extremely wealthy, it probably wouldn't be prescribed because it wouldn't be much of a penance.
>>1293394
What if I don't like earthly institutions and don't want to rely on them for communion with god?
Is there a path to salvation without a church? Can I decide myself what penance is, and still expect to be embraced in heaven? There are many here who'd jump to say that it would be the devil's work if I tried.
Do churches hold a spiritual monopoly on my access to god?
>>1293402
The Church isn't an "institution" it's the communion of Christ's Body on earth and heaven.
Christ said what the Apostles don't forgive, neither will God forgive. You can say, "Well I want to get to Christ *my* way," and I'm in no position to tell you that you are condemned, for I cannot know, but I will say that you are not following the instructions Christ left for salvation.
>>1293410
Fair enough. I can respect that you don't expect judge in the place of god.
>>1293335
what is there to misinterpret about it? can you explain how i misinterpreted it?
it literally LITERALLY says "faith alone"
>>1293421
what is faith?
>>1293428
>its an "ask a question and then immediately try to shit on whatever answer is given" episode
go look it up in the dictionary, you disingenuous contrarian shithead.
>>1293434
Not him, I want to know your take and how you feel it applies. If it's in the most literal sense, you could have mentioned that in the first place instead of assuming we're all on the same wavelength of what it means in this context.
Because I'm not a sack of rocks.
faith
fāTH/
noun
noun: faith
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
Isn't a soft concept in my mind.
>>1293440
Biblically it means to believe in something or be persuaded. The Greek word doesn't necessarily imply an overwhelming belief, it can just mean being convinced.
>>1293440
> complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
that's it. you do'nt even really need to love christ with all your heart and soul to be saved, you just need to have general ,acceptance of him as your savior.
you might say "well you need to have genuine conviction about it!" which yea is pretty hard in your day to day life, but when you're moments away from death it's really the easiest thing in the world to accept some sort of savior with real conviction.
i just think it's a stupid concept. the only "justice" in the concept of "saved or damned." is purely a human contrivance of vengeance for the wronged.
>you were a meanie so burn in hell forever!
if you unironically believe this, even towards the most despicable contemptible evildoer, you yourself are also considerably evil.
>>1293477
In Orthodoxy, we all end up burning with the same fire, which is God's grace (Hebrew 12:29), whether it is bliss or agony depends on whether you are hateful, ashamed, or joyous before God.
>>1293496
point remains. unless it's an agony you can eventually escape from POST death it's still the most ultimately evil concept imagined. in a finite life with finite actions you can take, no one deserves eternal agony, that's purely the revenge fantasy of slave morality.
>>1293520
You might be able to repent of it, we just don't know.
>>1293520
>no one deserves eternal agony
The agony, by the way, is brought on themselves by resentment or shame. The "fire" is literally God's love, it's not inherently any device of torture, it is a gift that sustains your existence even now.
>>1293525
i feel like that's something that your scripture would clarify
>>1293529
who faggot fucking cares who's fucking fault it is? oh yea, you, a petty small, mortal man. you would care.
>The "fire" is literally God's love, it's not inherently any device of torture, it is a gift that sustains your existence even now.
why the fuck would a 'just and loving' god ever allow his "love" to cause any agony under any circumstance for any reason?
you're just making pathetic human excuses for an anthropomorphized god's actions that have no excuse for being in the first place.
>well it's their fault!
if god is all powerful and all knowing, then he is by ALL logic directly responsible for everything that ever was is and shall be. it's his fault. for all of it.
>>1293548
>i feel like that's something that your scripture would clarify
Why? Scripture is teaching for us to follow here and now.
>why the fuck would a 'just and loving' god ever allow his "love" to cause any agony under any circumstance for any reason?
What's he going to do, force people to love him? How would that be real love, if it's forced?
>>1293577
>Why? Scripture is teaching for us to follow here and now.
knowledge of the afterlife deeply affects how you behave here and now
>What's he going to do, force people to love him?
no, he's going to force people to love each other, because he's not the biggest fucking cock sucking faggot in existence.
he's god, he doesnt need your love.
>How would that be real love, if it's forced?
because hes god and can make it be so.
or did you just forget the part where he's god and can do ANYTHING? it's like people thing god only has control over physics and not metaphysics as well. he's infinitely powerful, he can make "love" be whatever the fuck he wants it to be.
you have a tiny child brain and you think tiny child thoughts.
>>1293620
>knowledge of the afterlife deeply affects how you behave here and now
Maybe being unsure does as well.
>he's infinitely powerful, he can make "love" be whatever the fuck he wants it to be.
He wants it to be a choice.
>>1293659
>Maybe being unsure does as well.
yea it makes people murder each other
>He wants it to be a choice.
because he's the biggest cock sucking faggot in the universe, we know.
>>1293670
>yea it makes people murder each other
How does being unsure about whether repentance is possible after Judgement, make people murder each other?
>>1293683
why don't you ask the people who murdered them for professing such a belief?
>>1293725
Nobody was ever murdered for that.
Extra sacraments and penances are like exercises that were devised by the church clergy in order to teach people the morals of the faith. It probably took a generation or so after their institution for the people to forget what they were truly intended for and become just another of unproductive and manipulated ritual in opposition to what Jesus exhorted.
Matthew 6:7-8
>And, being at prayer, use not vain repetitions, just like the nations, for they think that in their much speaking they shall be heard, do not therefore make yourselves like them, for your Father knoweth of what things ye have need, before ye ask him.
Mark 12:28-34
>And one of the scribes coming near, hearing them discussing, seeing that well he had answered them, began to question him, "Which is the chief commandment of all?" Iesus answered, "The chief is: 'Hear! O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord; therefore shalt thou love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.' The second is this, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' Greater commandment, other than these, there is none." The scribe said unto him, "Well, Teacher! In truth hast thou said He is One, and there is none other than he; And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the might, and to love one's neighbour as one's self, is abundantly more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And Iesus, seeing him that with intelligence he answered, said unto him, "Not far art thou from the kingdom of God." And no one, any longer, was daring to question him.
>>1293241
Papcucks will defending being able to pay2win as a means of getting into heaven.
>>1293241
>Sola Fide, by faith alone.
>Sola Scriptura, by Scripture alone.
>Solus Christus, through Christ alone.
>Sola Gratia, by grace alone.
>Soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone.
I don't know why the use the word "alone" when all five go hand in hand.
>>1294771
So you could murder and rape billions of people and then just feel bad about it and convert on your deathbed?
Good deeds are better than faith alone. Obviously donating to the One True Church is a good deed, but it is not the only one.
>>1294764
What "extra sacraments" are you referring to?
Penances are prescribed by one's priest as medicine for the sinner who has a serious problem. In the RCC, they became juridical, with a manual for each penance for each sin to be used with precision (but I don't think they still do that), but this never happened in the Orthodox Church, penance is always contextual and given on the basis of what will help the sinner. That is, while in the West it got to be some officer of the law dispensing punishment (the Catholic conception of Purgatory ties in heavily with this theology), in the East it was always a doctor prescribing medicine.
>>1293248
“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”
- Martin Luther
>>1294802
Maybe each must be understood on individual terms?
>>1294802
its a meme ya dip
>>1295249
What you mean
>>1295264
i mean its a meme so that people will share it
>>1295275
What do you mean it's a "meme"?
>>1293241
Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works,
lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
1. Saving faith = salvation.
2. After being saved, walking in the works God lays before you.
>>1295278
a meme is a meme
>>1293248
James and Paul did not see eye to eye on many things. Paul ended up saying that anyone following James' doctrine would be accursed under the Law, as James was a Judaizer.
The charitable way to harmonize the two is to say that if you have faith as Paul says, then the works of God will flow from that faith, and those works will be visible to men.
But James really was teaching people to follow the Law of Moses, and James never believed his own half-brother was the Messiah until the Resurrection.
>>1295280
>>1295283
But what are memes like I see it "stop this meme" or its a "meme" what does it mean
>>1295294
it means memes
>>1293283
>A true faith is a living, breathing faith that necessarily creates good works.
This is correct. I cannot speak to Luther because I can't stand him.
But you stand virtually alone among Catholics, as Catholicism is a works based religion. Go to confession. Confess. Repent. Do penance. Pray. Light a candle. Pray again. Go to church. Hear mass. Eat cracker. Drink juice. Go to confession. Rinse and repeat endlessly.
Those are not works of the Father; those are works of the Catholic church.
The work of the Father is accomplished when a man believes in the One Whom He has sent.
>>1295280
James 2:24
>You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
Faith and Works are like a dynamic duo that high five and need the proper balance.
>>1295309
Like one of those pics with the big white letters?
>>1295237
"By works a man is justified, and not by faith alone."
-James
>>1295280
When Paul talks about "works", he is referring to works of the law, like circumcision and eating kosher.
>Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
-Galatians 2:16
>>1293330
Jesus paid that cosmic retribution on your behalf, before you were born. He already paid the sin debt you owed to God for violating all of God's Law.
By confessing that Jesus is Lord, and believing in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, and you will have made Jesus' sacrifice on your behalf meaningful to Him and you. You will be in fellowship with Him.
I wish I could say that being saved stops people from sinning, but people have no more power to stop sinning after they are saved than before.
>>1293375
Absolute faith in the church will lead you to hellfire. I guarantee it.
>>1293380
Faith (the ability to believe without seeing) that Jesus is Lord, that He is God, and that He rose from the dead on the third day after He was executed, having paid the sin debt of humanity.
Faith is not the key; the object of your faith is key. If the object of your faith is in the risen Christ Jesus, you're golden.
>>1293394
No church every saved anyone.
No church ever will.
>>1295313
Our righteousness cannot save us; only God's grace.
>>1295319
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"
- Paul
>>1295318
sometimes
>>1293402
Of course. It's always been a one-on-one meeting with God, your creator.
Anywhere you like, any time you like, with any words you like, you can confess out loud that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead. Do this, and you will be saved (Romans 10:9)
Joining a church to be saved is as foolish as living in a garage to be a car. Once you are saved, you can seek out a church that will be thrilled to hear your testimony and baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If they cannot or will not, find a real church that will, and if you want, join it.
>>1293428
Faith is the human ability to believe things without seeing them.
As the bible says, faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen.
>>1295329
This.
People think because they are Christian they are all set but then don't ever go beyond and apply it.
Being a Christian isn't an ego booster "I am saved because I am a Christian and everyone else is going to hell because I'm better than them because of the exclusive nature of my church that excludes the sinners that Jesus wasn't afraid rest with"
>>1293496
>In Orthodoxy, we all end up burning with the same fire,
You never said a truer word.
>>1295333
Through God's grace we are made righteous, no man is righteous on his own, only God is righteous.
>>1295290
>James was a Judaizer.
Nope, he presided over the Council of Jerusalem.
Saint James the Brother of the Lord was very popular with Judaizers because he was a Nazerene until his death at the hands of the Pharisees (which is recounted by Josephus), but Saint James was not Judaizer.
>>1294832
Thanks for your input, Simon Magus. We'll pass. Turns out the Holy Spirit is not for sale.
>>1295354
Amen.
>>1295313
A person is considered righteous by whom?
I prefer to be considered righteous by God. Not men.
>>1295319
>he is referring to works of the law, like circumcision and eating kosher.
Yes, WORKS THAT JAMES WAS TEACHING PEOPLE TO DO.
>>1295332
Indeed. Because the second part is to believe in your heart God raised Jesus from the dead.
See?
more.
>>1295355
James was teaching in the Temple.
With no problem from the Jews.
It bothers me so much that people think you're a Christian, when you don't understand basic historical scripture, much less anything spiritual.
>>1295362
We can only be considered righteous by God which is what James must have meant as well. It is probably to help people to not only rely on faith but understand that through faith and works together...
>>1295360
Great quote. I'm a mess, but I'm His mess. Love it.
>>1295365
It's a step in the right direction.
>>1295329
The Church is Christ's Body, so.....
>>1295333
>"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"
Existence itself is a gift from God through his grace, everything is due to grace alone, but it is up to *you* whether or not you will cooperate with grace, and grace will not force your hand in this.
>>1295374
The most righteous people on earth when Jesus was here were the Pharisees and scribes.
And Jesus said that your righteousness has to exceed that of the Pharisees and scribes, literally the most righteous people on earth.
How do you think you stack up against people who literally live every moment of every day by each commandment that God gave mankind?
People who would take a shower and change clothes between each letter of the torah they were copying? People who would give 10% of the mint they grew in their garden to the Temple? People who would not be seen in public with a spot on their robe?
>>1295376
Me too.
>>1295378
Both are supernatural acts. The confession is a supernatural act, and the belief is a supernatural belief.
People think they can do them at any time, but it's impossible.
Luckily God can do the impossible.
>>1295380
Your church.
Is not.
Christ's body.
>>1295369
>James was teaching in the Temple.
Christ was teaching in the Temple.
>no problem with the Jews
Except being put to death by them?
>you don't understand basic historical scripture,
I understand that Scripture has Saint James as bishop of Jerusalem, and presiding over the Council of Jerusalem, where the Judaizers are ruled against.
>>1295380
The true church is a community of people
"Whether two or three are gathered in My Name, I am there"
>Jeus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
It isn't about the bread at church, the true communion is the direct relationship to God.
>>1295390
That's actually her very definition.
>>1295380
Yes we must choose to cooperate but this is not a "work" in the sense that Romans use the word.
>>1295391
And they killed Jesus.
And they killed Paul.
And they had no problem with James, because James was having men circumcised, baptized (a Jewish ritual) and told to follow the Law of Moses.
I know your heart is in the right place, and you want to help people see the light.
But you're in total darkness and you can't tell the difference.
If you want to help people to be saved, you must first be saved.
>>1295398
Your church.
Is not.
The body of Christ.
>>1295387
Those scribes and Pharisees were also being rebuked constantly and lived 2000 years ago.
>>1295398
Maybe this will help you get some clarity.
You are a member of your church.
You are not a member of the Body of Christ, because the Body of Christ is not comprised of your church members.
>>1295397
You're talking about bread as source of carbs, communion is about bread as Christ's Body that you join with. Christ said if you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood, you shall not inherit eternal life. He gives food to his Apostles saying it is his body and they are eating it; yet you say this is all is uncritical?
>>1295410
The true body of Christ is in the heart of every being who has died with Him and come into new life with Him.
>>1295399
No, because Romans uses it to mean works of the law, whereas James uses it to mean synergism
>>1295413
They were being rebuked not because they were not righteous, but because they were self-righteous.
If you want to be righteous based on your works, you are lining up to be self-righteous.
And God resists the self-righteous.
No, the only way into heaven and the only way for your righteousness to exceed the righteousness of men is to have the righteousness of Jesus Christ Himself imputed to you.
Which is what happens when a person becomes born again.
When God looks at me, He sees Jesus. My imputed righteousness exceeds the self-righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, who would NEVER come to this site under ANY conditions.
>>1295417
>Christ said if you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood, you shall not inherit eternal life.
Absolute pagans you people are. ffs keep reading John 6.
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
>>1295416
>the Body of Christ is not comprised of your church members.
Our Body of Christ has continuously existed for 2000 years. Yours was born during the Reformation, or, if we take your word for it, "Reborn" after having supposedly died for over a thousand years.
>>1295417
You can recieve the Eucharist without churches ritual
>>1295428
I know the beliefs of your church, and I know that you are going to hell because your faith is in your church.
No church ever saved anybody.
No church ever will.
>>1295425
You can do good works without being self righteous. You give freely without expectation of result.
>>1295429
People eat crackers and drink juice all day every day.
Few find the narrow path.
>>1295428
The true body of Christ existed at the beggining of time.
>>1295435
Bible disagrees.
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.
>>1295422
Arminius would agree.
>>1295443
Aye, and be damned.
>>1295438
For those who partake in those sacraments, good for them. For those who don't, they aren't condemned if they live and die with Christ everyday. Some devout Christians are against churches and particular denominations, other Christians despise those Christian who don't go to church.
As long as you have a solid connection with God then there you go.
>>1295447
You are his judge?
>>1295427
"Flesh" and "spirit" are about the *source* of the words. Not about it not being really his flesh, Christ says overtly that it is.
>>1295442
We are all unclean made clean by God's grace. It is not just faith, not just works, not just grace, but a combination of all of these.
>>1295460
Grace is given through faith which produces works.
>>1295439
Christ didn't have a body until the incarnation.
>>1295470
Not, faith is given by grace.
>>1295483
They all compliment eachother in all ways.
>>1295483
Just a moment ago you were defending synergism and now you say this. . .
>>1295454
Did we lose the ability to judge matters today?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
>>1295455
Nope.
Strike two.
Since you have no clue how to be saved, isn't it obvious that you're not saved?
>>1295500
We have the ability but do you have the authority?
>>1295460
By grace are we saved through faith.....and that faith was given to us by God.....
Hmmmm, still nothing about "works".
How much does God owe you for all this awesome "work" you're doing for Him?
How much would you say you have enriched God with all this "work"?
>>1295474
kek
Now you're an Arian heretic.
Can't you just pick one heretic and go with it?
>>1295508
Wait, do you think I cast Arminius into Hades?
How old do you think I am?
No, I just judge the man by his own words, and by his own words, he never met Jesus before he died.
>>1295506
The "pre-incarnate" is eternally incarnate, the Body is the Holy Spirit which ministers to all today, and the physically worldly body 2000 years ago served as a Teacher and Sacrifice, and much, much more...
Faith can compliment grace, people recieve faith because of grace. Everything can compliment Him if it does, God is everywhere and deserves constant praises and compliments.
>>1295506
You lack all spiritual discernment, natural man.
You joined a club of likewise minded people.
Yay.
>>1295509
Performing works isn't about expecting results or fruits.
>>1295506
Yes but not everyone has faith and therefore they are not recipients of that grace.
>>1295516
If you claim to have authority to judge the man I will leave that between you and God but I remind you of Jesus' own words:
>Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
>>1295512
There's nothing Arian about that. None of the persons of the Trinity had a body, and after the incarnation only one did. You just don't know what the word σῶμα means, apparently.
>>1295520
He isn't "eternally incarnate", he is eternally begotten. "Eternally incarnate" would mean he had always had human body.
>>1295547
Literally eternally incarnate would mean He is always a human body, in the context of the sentence I meant eternally incarnate as existing as Christ before time and before His physical body, one being with the Father.
>Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them
In this sense, to every clean heart, the Father and the Christ and the Holy Spirit will dwell within us. The Spirit of the Lord is eternal, and is within every human being. Each individual is soul, not body, not mind, and God is the Source of soul.
>>1295560
That's right, the Second Person of the Trinity has *one* hypostasis, one existence, which predated his incarnation, and continued through his incarnation. To say otherwise is Nestorianism. The phrase you are looking for is "eternally begotten", meaning there was never a time the Word was not begotten.
> Each individual is soul, not body, not mind, and God is the Source of soul.
No, we very much are our bodies as well, it's the Gnostics who say we are not our bodies. We ARE our bodies; the separation of the spirit and body is unnatural and perverse, a product of sin, that impairs our humanity; that is why we must be rejoined with body with the Resurrection of the Dead.
>>1295576
We are not our body. If we were our body, we would believe our identity is our appearance. We are spirit-soul in the body but not the body itself because when we die our soul leaves the body, because the body is temporary.
It is the same with the mind. To associate fully with the mind, all of our mental freak outs and weird back and forth mental banters we would be associating with them when we are not the by-product a of the mind.
However in the body and in the mind, we are the soul in these two for right now in this life we each live.
>>1295591
The Body is meant to be eternal, it is mortal because of the Fall. But through Christ we gain a bodily Resurrection, we partake of Christ's very Body, and in doing so our body becomes mystically a part of his, and therefore enjoys his Resurrection.
>>1295591
>If we were our body, we would believe our identity is our appearance.
To address this, our body is not our entire self. Your physical body IS you, just not you in entirety. When your body dies, you lose a piece of yourself that will be returned.
>>1295597
Like an etheric body. The physical is not eternal because matter is a constant change of formation and does not fully hold.
> 85 Jesus said, "Adam came into being from a great power and a great wealth, but he did not become worthy of you. For had he been worthy, [he would] not [have experienced] death." (Thomas)
Both Adam and Christ experience physical death, but Christ is eternal after the Ressurection (which in the Bible is physical ressurection then spiritual during and after the ascension)
>>1295535
And has nothing to do with salvation.
See, e.g., the thief on the cross.
>>1295538
So you think that a saved man can be damned by falsely judging another man.
You think you can lose your salvation.
Hence, you are Arminian.
Hence, the offense.
>>1295602
We are not this body. A toy is not alive without a battery, a body is not alive without a soul. The toy is not the battery, the battery is not the toy.
The battery can go in many different toys depending on where you put the battery. God chooses which battery goes in which toy
>>1295547
You are literally an Arian heretic.
Arianism is a Christian belief that asserts that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was created by God the Father at a point in time, is distinct from the Father and is therefore subordinate to the Father. Arian teachings were first attributed to Arius (c. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt.
>>1295547
>"Eternally incarnate" would mean he had always had human body.
You mean like as in the one He walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve?
And was in the fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?
And walked up to and talked with Abraham, accompanied by two angels?
And was standing with a sword overlooking Jericho while talking to Joshua?
Yeah, Arian heretic indeed.
>>1295627
The physical is impaired by of sin, which contaminated all the material world; everything dies or perishes, because of sin. The physical world will be incomprehensibly different, but it won't ceases to exist; there will be a new heaven and a new earth, not just an abolition of earth.
>then spiritual during and after the ascension
Uh, no. Christ's spirit wasn't "dead" after the bodily Resurrection, and then "Resurrected" with the ascension.
We will all be Resurrected as Christ was, we inherit his Resurrection through Communion.
>>1295635
The thief on the cross could do no works. If you are a billionaire, and are to cheap to spare any of your money for the poor, it won't be good, but if you are destitute then obviously you won't be judged for being unable to give to the poor. Same principle.
>>1295597
You just literally know nothing of Christianity. Literally nothing.
Getting Jesus' body.
Holy crap.
>>1295635
We are all constantly performing works, everything you do is work. Typing on 4chan is work, going to the bathroom is work, eating a doughnut is work. Everything that has cause and effect is work. We are justified by works when we take a handle of our cause and effect scenarios and by the grace of the Creator we can actually do this.
If Isaiah had no works, how would the boo of Isaiah ever have been written? It take work to write.
Same for Ellijah if he did not prove himself to God through his works and his faith, why would God give him any grace? If Ellijah had no work to show for himself, how would he have been worthy to be the one to outshine the prophets of Baal?
The the if on the cross who denies himself for Christ during the passion is saved through mercy
>>1295664
The thief on the cross did no works.
The thief on the cross was saved.
"Remember me, Lord, when you come into your Kingdom."
1. Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord; and
2. Believe in your heart God (will) raise Him from the dead.
That's salvation, and that's something you do not have.
Your "works" are as filthy rags to a holy God.
>>1295667
And if you never confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and never believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will go to hell, and your works will follow you.
Nobody (but Jesus) has ever been found righteous by works, by law, by effort, and nobody ever will.
>>1295681
Arius is literally a heretic.
kek
Calling a German a German a problem for you too?
>>1295639
No, God created each of our souls for bodies, our souls did not exist before our bodies, and God is not planning on playing musical chairs with them. The angels were created to function without bodies, human beings were created to have bodies.
>>1295645
Jesus Christ is the term for the Word incarnate as flesh. The Word always existed, and that existence is the same as Christ's, Christ's is not a new existence, but the same continuous existence of the Word. The Word did not have a physical body before, but still existed. That same existence was manifested physically, but that does not mean a new existence was *created*, but rather that eternal existence, of the Second Person of the Trinity, became flesh.
>>1295658
>You mean like as in the one He walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve?
Literally no one, not Jews, not Christians, no one, took that as God literally walking around until the Reformation, and probably not even until a long time after then,
All the other appearances you're talking about are not physical bodies anymore than the appearances of angels are physical bodies.
>>1295664
To decide when Christ was this or that is meaningless.
How you define communion? One says Eucharist, another says communion is not a physical thing like Eucharist but something that is happening right now.
>>1295692
Since you seem clueless on what Arianism is, here's a short synopsis.
Arius taught that only God the Father was eternal and too pure and infinite to appear on the earth. Therefore, God produced Christ the Son out of nothing as the first and greatest creation. The Son is then the one who created the universe. Because the Son relationship of the Son to the Father is not one of nature, it is, therefore, adoptive. God adopted Christ as the Son. Though Christ was a creation and because of his great position and authority, he was to be worshipped and even looked upon as God. Some Arians even held that the Holy Spirit was the first and greatest creation of the Son.
At Jesus' incarnation, the Arians asserted that the divine quality of the Son, the Logos, took the place of the human and spiritual aspect of Jesus thereby denying the full and complete incarnation of God the Son, second person of the Trinity.
In asserting that Christ the Son, as a created thing, was to be worshipped, the Arians were advocating idolatry.
>>1295673
>The thief on the cross did no works.
That's because he couldn't, he was nailed to a cross.
Here is a simple rule to keep in mind: God is not beaurocrat. If you are physically unable to do something, God will not demand it of you, but if you are able to do something, then he will absolutely expect you to do it.
>>1295692
It's Jesus.
You can't recognize Him, because you don't know Him.
Only He makes ground holy.
He is called The Angel Of The LORD in the OT.
He made the ground holy for Moses.
He made the ground holy for Abraham.
He made the ground holy for Hagar.
He made the ground holy for Joshua.
He made the ground holy for Gideon.
If you think an angel can make the ground holy, then worship that angel, I suppose.
Oh wait, you're already worshiping one angel.
>>1295702
You don't know God, and to think that God thinks as you do is laughable.
Paul told you how to be saved.
You'd rather be a member of your papist lite church than be saved.
>>1295688
And that confession is only a piece of the pie of faith grace and works.
>>1295691
Just saying that badgering another isn't going to change their opinion and belief
>>1295692
>No, God created each of our souls for bodies
We are all part of God's soul, whether we are in this body or not all life is alive because of Him.
To start off with "No" doesn't make you more right, I will hold it inside that this bodily life is a hell within itself, and there is joy and there is suffering in this life and the only way to be free is to be Ressurected with Christ.
The only disagreement we have is over body/spirit and it's obvious that the disagreement must have a true, unified meaning.
>our souls did not exist before our bodies
God existed before our bodies, our soul is eternal and not our body.
>And God is not planning on playing musical chairs with them.
We have no idea what God is fully planning. Where we go is up to Him
>The angels were created to function without bodies, human beings were created to have bodies.
Even the angels, some fall away and others stay the same.
>>1295696
>>1295700
>At Jesus' incarnation, the Arians asserted that the divine quality of the Son, the Logos, took the place of the human and spiritual aspect of Jesus thereby denying the full and complete incarnation of God the Son, second person of the Trinity.
Arians believe that the Son did not always exist, and that the Son is not God. You're conflating Arianism with monophysitism (not to be confused with myaphysitism).
>>1295696
Communion is being part of Christ's Body, the physical act is renewing it.
>>1293241
Lazy as fuck, a handy justification to be dicks to people outside your congregation and feel all holier-than-thou when you actually do something good.
>>1295741
It depends if you trust the priest handing you communion. I don't doubt it has meaning, but some people find salvation outside of the church because they have a disagreement with the church in some way.
One is not more or less right than the other, the only thing matters is what brings us together and that is the Glory of God. If we keep our focus there, and glorify God rather than focus on why we hate eachother...
>>1295725
Yes, I've said so many times, in this thread.
1.
and
2.
You keep saying 1. is only part of it.
I'm not here to change Constantine's beliefs.
I'm here to show people reading that he has no idea what Christianity is so that nobody follows what he says, and thus becomes twice as damned as before.
I'm pretty sure I've said this to you before, but please feel free to wield the scalpel God gave you in the best way you can.
I has a hammer.
>>1295741
You also believe that Jesus did not always exist, incarnate.
You also believe that Jesus was created by God.
You also are unclear that there is only one God.
Hence, you are also a heretic.
>>1295725
>We are all part of God's soul
I am guessing by "soul" here to mean "energies" or "grace", since God does not have a "soul" in the conventional sense except in Christ (who has a human soul), and the divine essence is inaccessible to us.
In which case, we are all *sustained* by God's energies, like air except much more crucial, but becoming a living part of them is a process known as "theosis" which takes a great deal of time and effort and help from God. It's the difference between pantheism and panentheism.
>>1295768
Who are you to say that Constantine has no idea what Christianity is though? Why make that your purpose to outshine someone else's views? Why say "twice damned" when no man has authority to damn?
>>1295789
>I am guessing by "soul" here to mean "energies" or "grace"
Soul, energy, and grace
>since God does not have a "soul" in the conventional sense except in Christ (who has a human soul), and the divine essence is inaccessible to us.
God has a soul in the conventional sense as well and dwells in Christ as well. It is not inaccessible to us because we are not ever seperate from God
>>1295762
>It depends if you trust the priest handing you communion.
Nope, that has nothing to do with it.
>>1295773
>You also believe that Jesus did not always exist, incarnate.
Uh, no. Incarnation ≠ existence. Christ's hypostasis (Greek word for "existence") is the Son, an existence of God that is eternal. The incarnation is that existence becoming flesh.
>>1295808
Why recieve communion from a priest who is dressed as a priest on the outside but unholy on the inside? You would have to truly experience his holiness.
In this case, Communion as the Eucharist is the same as Communion in everyday life; as long as one recieve the grace of God and the direct relationship between the self and God, why make any distinctions
>>1295802
>God has a soul in the conventional sense
No. The conventional sense of "soul", Biblically, is "breath", which God only has in a figurative sense. In fact, 1 Corinthians 15:44, Paul literally says "soulful body", but it's translated as "natural body" because "soulful body" sounds weird in English
>>1295823
>Why recieve communion from a priest who is dressed as a priest on the outside but unholy on the inside?
Communion is about eating Christ, not about eating the priest.
>>1295823
>Communion as the Eucharist is the same as Communion in everyday life; as long as one recieve the grace of God and the direct relationship between the self and God, why make any distinctions
We all only exist in relationship with God. But that is not synonymous with being literally and physically a part of Christ's Body.
>>1295839
It should stay as soulful body, but the soul is natural before our physical nature.
>>1295846
I would not want to eat the body prepared by someone who has no true passion for God.
It might not be abut who sells you the weed but the weed itself, but when it comes to receiving God, you must recieve Him from someone who is divine, not just some scholar or some priest.
Eucharist as Bread and Wine, to drink wine and eat bread like the apostles did that one time is also to spiritually drink Christ's blood which enables us to have His blood run through us, and we die with His body and come back into new life with His body.
This in no way means physically we need bread and wine, but it means we need to come to His body and blood (His life and Crucifixion) in a spiritual sense.
You can partake in the Eucharist to, you can also be a hermit Christian as well and have that be your communion.
There are literally so many different ways to explain there is truth in both perspectives
>>1295637
You do not know me.
>>1295848
As long as we love God, that is first.
Everything else, like saying "I am more right than you" and "actually I am more right" means nothing. We both love God, let's talk about that
>>1295791
It would be as obvious to you as it is to me, if you were a Christian.
It's not complicated.
You ask: How did you become a Chrsitian?
You get: I joined this church that is the body of Christ, got baptized there, ate crackers there, drank juice there, and took a confirmation class there.
It's my fault you don't recognize salvation as a gift? It's my fault you can't test a false brother and see that they're false? It's my fault you don't recognize scripture? That you can't tell how apostate the catholic and orthodox churches are?
No, you need to do some soul searching of your own.
Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
>>1295816
Holy shit.
Hypostasis is not Greek for "existence". You even suck at your native language.
Hypostasis is a Greek word ὑπόστασις that has a range of meanings: nature, substance, image, essence, etc. It is translated as "nature" in the NASB in Heb. 1:3, "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power." It is translated as "image" in the ASV, KJV and NKJV, "imprint" in the ESV and NRSV. It is also found in
2 Cor. 9:4,"otherwise if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we—not to speak of you—will be put to shame by this confidence [hypostasis]," (NASB).
Heb. 3:14, "For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance [hypostasis] firm until the end," (NASB).
Heb. 11:1, " Now faith is the assurance [hypostasis] of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen," (NASB).
>>1295816
Jesus, in the flesh, walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve.
If you can't see that, you're a polytheist.
In fact, you've proven you're a polytheist already, by denying that Jesus came down from heaven in the flesh, i.e. the spirit of antichrist is in you.
>>1295846
>Communion is about eating Christ
Holy fuck.
>>1295879
>It should stay as soulful body, but the soul is natural before our physical nature.
Maybe you should read the verse
>I would not want to eat the body prepared by someone who has no true passion for God.
God's Body is God's Body, the holiness thereof is unrelated to the spirituality of who prepares it.
>This in no way means physically we need bread and wine, but it means we need to come to His body and blood (His life and Crucifixion) in a spiritual sense.
We spiritually need physical communion, it fortifies and sanctifies our flesh spiritually..
>You can partake in the Eucharist to, you can also be a hermit Christian as well and have that be your communion.
Orthodox hermits generally have the Eucharist brought to them at least once a year
>>1295886
And yet, here I am judging you by your own words.
And you don't like it.
Change your words.
>>1295889
You love God, you obey him without question, you don't forge your own thing
>>1295908
>We spiritually need physical communion, it fortifies and sanctifies our flesh spiritually..
Eat God, Be God.
There is nothing more pagan than that.
>>1295900
Nature is physis
Eikon is image
Ousia is essence
Hypostasis is existence.
>>1295915
Your church forged its own thing.
>>1295919
Is there anything you know? I just gave you the literal definitions and usage in the bible, and you come back with nonsense.
>>1295905
>Jesus, in the flesh, walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve.
Then he wouldn't have had to come out of a womb, would he? He wouldn't need to be conceived by the Holy Spirit, would he?
>>1295893
If someone is orthodox or whatever, it is not your business to tell them they are wrong and make it a point to show everyone in vain that they are wrong. Sure there is apostasy in these places, and yet everyone will have a different view as to what a heretic is based on their own opinion of what the religious Christianity means to them yet Christ is unchanged and is not the separation of the church but is present within you and present outside of you.
>>1295928
See?
You are powered by the spirit of antichrist, which denies that Jesus came down from heaven in the flesh.
Jesus was in heaven before He was "born".
You and your papist mother earth worshipers are all lost pagans.
>>1295931
You keep telling me what my business is.
Why don't you take your own advice?
Revelation 2
“I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary.
>>1295908
Orthodox hermits are orthodox hermits. Moses gave the Israelites manna, and Christ says "Here is the eternal bread from heaven"
Parallel Verses
>Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
>Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
This true bread in no way has to be literal bread
>>1295915
Good stuff.
Anyone in active submission to God is experiencing their own direct relationship to Him
>>1295918
Christ said it himself
>>1295921
My Church has continual existence, your does not.
>>1295924
You gave me a bunch of translations and use those as an authority, which I don't, especially since many of them don't use consistent translations and freely change translation of words from one page to the next to reinforce their agenda.
As for the other verses you used, which translate as "assurance", that's understandable, but it's entirely due to English usage. Hypostasis means that which stands underneath (literally), and it used to be the existential foundation of something, so it strongly connotes a firmness, whereas the English word "existence" does not connote "firmness".
>>1295937
Just saying man, it is one thing to point out where someone is wrong and another thing to go about it in the wrong way.
Your business is your buisness.
>>1295939
No, it's the Body of Christ, much more than mere bread.
>>1295945
If you're in active submission to God, you follow the instructions he gave, which is to be a part of his Church and to be forgiven through her. He said to the Apostles that any sin you do not forgive, God will not forgive, and that office they have passed on; you can either scoff at this, or follow it, but if you scoff, you are not really following God.
>>1295952
Jesus said His words were food.
Spiritual food.
But since you're not a spiritual person, when you hear "food", you think only of your belly.
When Jesus brought Peter back into the fold after His resurrection, and told Peter to "feed My sheep", do you think Jesus was talking about bread and wine?
Or is it just maybe possible that you're a lost natural person with zero spiritual discernment, and you think Jesus wanted Peter to open a bakery and a vineyard?
Your church is a blight on humanity, same as Rome.
The word is used in the Greek NT many times with those meanings, and none of them is "existence".
You don't even know Greek!
And you got completely confused between hypostasis and the hypostatic union.
>>1295954
I now have your permission to do what I do?
Why, thank you Anon.
I tell you what. In the generosity of the moment, you may post as you like.
>>1295958
So now we have to eat your church?
>>1295958
>active submission to God,
Now you're a muslim?
>>1295958
Psalm 81:15 The haters of the Lord would pretend submission to Him, But their fate would endure forever.
>>1293241
Faith without works are dead. I can't just go on sinning willfully and be a piece of garbage and be saved.
>>1295960
>Jesus said His words were food.
Nope, he said his flesh was spiritual food.
>>1295973
Of course you can.
Which you would know, if you were saved. But not before.
Because before you get saved, you think you can get saved and then just go on sinning and living a filthy life and be a piece of garbage.
>>1295967
The Church is comprised of people who have partaken of the Body of Christ, and so are a part of it.
>>1295958
The Body of Christ is more than bread, exactly. The bread is not much more than bread until it is blessed. If you partake in the physical bread with the Body, that is one thing, if you partake in the spiritual heavenly bread as something more than bread, you also recieve the Body. As long as both recieve direct communion with God, it isn't about whether or not they are part of a particular church or eat the Eucharist or not.
>>1295975
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”
Getting clear yet, lost one?
>>1295980
Eat God, Be God.
Welcome to 4000 years of being a pagan!
>>1295978
Not after I know the truth
>>1295988
Nothing pagan about that. Literally all the secular scholars who talk about pagans eating their gods, are using Christianity as a reference. For instance, the ancient Greek mysteries this is *hypothesized* (there is no written record indicating it, based on the idea that Christianity could not have developed in a vacuum, and so must have gotten the idea from pagans.
>>1295986
Right, Christ's Body is spiritual food, you don't eat it for carbs.
Christ did not take, "Take, eat, this is bread," he said, "Take, eat, this is my body."
>>1293241
>Woman
>Brilliant mind
>Tatoos
>>1295990
No clue what you mean by this.
>>1296009
The doctrine of transubstantiation does not date back to the Last Supper as is supposed. It was a controverted topic for many centuries before officially becoming an article of faith, which means that it is essential to salvation according to the Roman Catholic Church. The idea of a corporal presence was vaguely held by some, such as Ambrose, but it was not until 831 A.D. that Paschasius Radbertus, a Benedictine monk, published a treatise openly advocating the doctrine of transubstantiation. Even then, for almost another four hundred years, theological war was waged over this teaching by bishops and people alike until at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 A.D., it was officially defined and canonized as a dogma.
Like many of the beliefs and rites of Romanism, transubstantiation was first practiced by pagan religions. The noted historian Durant said that belief in transubstantiation as practiced by the priests of the Roman Catholic system is "one of the oldest ceremonies of primitive religion." The Story Of Civilization, p. 741. The syncretism and mysticism of the Middle East were great factors in influencing the West, particularly Italy. Roman Society From Nero To Marcus Aurelius, Dill. In Egypt priests would consecrate mest cakes which were supposed to be come the flesh of Osiris. Encyclopedia Of Religions, Vol. 2, p. 76. The idea of transubstantiation was also characteristic of the religion of Mithra whose sacraments of cakes and Haoma drink closely parallel the Catholic Eucharistic rite. Ibid. The idea of eating the flesh of deity was most popular among the people of Mexico and Central America long before they ever heard of Christ; and when Spanish missionaries first landed in those countries "their surprise was heightened, when they witnessed a religious rite which reminded them of communion...an image made of flour...and after consecration by priests, was distributed among the people who ate it...declaring it was the flesh of deity..." Prescott
>>1296009
The Christian Church for the first three hundred years remained somewhat pure and faithful to the Word of God, but after the pseudo-conversion of Constantine, who for political expedience declared Christianity the state religion, thousands of pagans were admitted to the church by baptism alone with out true conversion. They brought with them pagan rites which they boldly introduced into the church with Christian terminology, thus corrupting the primitive faith. Even the noted Catholic prelate and theologian, Cardinal Newman, tells us that Constantine introduced many things of pagan origin: "We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own...The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." An Essay On The Development Of Christian Doctrine, pp. 359, 360. This unholy alliance also allowed the continuance of the pagan custom of eating and drinking the literal flesh and literal blood of their god. This is actually how transubstantiation entered the professing church.
>>1296009
Christ did not carve off hunks of His flesh for His disciples to eat, nor did He open a vein so they could drink His blood.
There's nothing more disgusting than thinking that God wants people to be cannibals and vampires.
>>1296009
"the worship of what is called the Blessed Sacrament is as vile an idolatry as the worship by the Egyptians of onions and other pot-herbs which grew in their own gardens," Charles Spurgeon.
>>1296035
All this stuff you're talking about dates after the schism, and it's in the West.
>The noted historian Durant said that belief in transubstantiation as practiced by the priests of the Roman Catholic system is "one of the oldest ceremonies of primitive religion."
Yeah, and he doesn't actually source that.
> Egypt priests would consecrate mest cakes which were supposed to be come the flesh of Osiris
Yeah, that's been *hypothesized* based on Christianity having come from them, it's not actually supported by any primary sources.
>s "their surprise was heightened, when they witnessed a religious rite which reminded them of communion...an image made of flour...and after consecration by priests, was distributed among the people who ate it...declaring it was the flesh of deity..."
Please actually give a primary source.
>>1296037
The ring in marriage is something that didn't come about until long after Constantine, the idea of the rest being "pagan" is flatly ridiculous because most of them exist in old testament Judaism.
>>1296040
Christ said his flesh is *truly* food.
>>1296048
We don't put the Sacrament on a pedestal and worship it like the West does, that practice arose after the schism and we think it is very weird. The Eucharist is for eating.
>>1296086
>All this stuff you're talking about
That is, the use of the term "transubstantion" and all the dogmatic argument over it. The term wasn't used in the East, but we still understood the Eucharist to be Christ's Body--if *that* doctrine started when you say it does, it wouldn't exist in the Orthodox Church, since that is after the schism.
>>1295310
>I cannot speak to Luther because I can't stand him.
John Calvin? Is that you?
>>1293248
James was talking about acts of faith though, like Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice.
>>1296086
>Christ said his flesh is *truly* food.
Show me in the bible where Jesus gave His disciples His flesh to eat, and His blood to drink.
You vile fucking pagan.
>>1296168
Many people hate anti-semetic Catholic friars. Many, many people.
At least 68,000,000 that were murdered by Rome.
daily reminder that the Jesuit Order is an order of assassins, and their extreme oath was to murder Christians and Jews.
>>1296614
And so was Paul, by saying Abraham was found righteous for believing God.
Paul, the greatest apostle and writer of most of the New Testament.
James, Jesus' asshole half-brother who couldn't figure out Jesus is God in 36 years, and who wrote the worst book in the New Testament but for Jude, his brother.
It's no contest. Two backwater hillbillies v Paul the Apostle, former Pharisee, former Sanhedrin member, apostle to 99% of the world's population.
>>1295427
Explain
>>1296037
Explain this stupid
