What factors allowed Japan to dominate East Asia and rival the west? Why couldn't China do it?
>>1278492
China dominated East Asia before Japan. In contrast Japan had a century of East Asian dominance before they blew it for being too imperialistic.
Both were isolated. China was even more strict on their isolation but Japan was open to being westernized. Japan sent their people across the world, particularly in Europe to learn the ways of western world and came back to westernize it.
China was kind of a victim of its own success
They were arrogant and refused western knowledge
>>1278492
Most countries in East Asia were made up of stick forts and huts. Japan was the first Asian country to industrialize so it wasn't that hard. China was also having their own troubles at the time, namely being Japan in Manchuria.
>>1278492
American money
>>1278492
Japan westernized extremely fast, China lagged behind.
>>1278492
Edo-era japan's government and power structure is inherently based on military power (like the Ashikaga and unlike their direct predecessors, the Toyotomi, the Tokugawa were shoguns, an inherently military rank), and so when confronted with absolutely, overwhelming military inferiority (as demonstrated at Shimonoseki and Kagoshima), Japan's rulers felt the need to strengthen. This can be seen in the Boshin war--both the Royalists and Shogunate actively modernized their military, and both sides had European advisers and european-trained troops. The Boshin war also led to the growth of a newly invigorated government that was open to change under the Meiji government. A government led by the Emperor hadn't happened since the 12th century; the new Japanese government would need to adopt completely new institutions, and this ability to innovate also gave them the chance to develop governmental institutions that may have been considered unwelcome under teh Shogunate.
In comparison, the Qing government followed traditional ideals that stressed the dominance of the civilian government over military rule. The Qing had ruled for several centuries and had already stagnated, and unlike the Shogun (who actively needed to control the daimyo under him in order to ensure his rule), the Emperor was insulated both from the decision-making process and China's defeats in the opium wars, which were more than likely portrayed in the best possible light to the Emperor. As such, the Qing dynasty was too paralyzed by its bureaucracy and stagnant government to spearhead any significant reform movement where the Japanese were reinvigorated.
>>1278492
China had many internal problems. Was divided between many warlords, and when Japan invaded Kuomintang were still at war with Communists.
>>1278492
Qing dynasty China was ruled by Manchus, who were more afraid of the Han than they are of the Japanese or the west.
Republican China was basically split up into 10 different parts by warlords. Couldn't make a united effort on anything.
Japan was successful almost as a product of China having a shit time. The Japanese Empire was almost entirely a product of filling Chinese and European power vacuums. China was falling apart in the time the Japanese empire was taking off, and China's lack of strong government meant Japan could pick parts like Korea from their suzerainty and Manchuria from their territory. Then come WWI and WWII they just kicked European colonies when the Europeans weren't in a position to retaliate well.
They were savvy and very willing to make use of western experts to quickly modernize, then they pressed that advantage hard.
>>1279037
This.
Qing China was not China. In an age of nationalism and romanticism (1800s), the Chinese could not unify under Manchu leadership.
If the Xinhai revolution occured 100 years earlier, China would be unstoppable.
>>1278504
Correct.
The Meiji reformation saw Japan deciding to adopt successful Western ideas, such as Bismarck's philosophy on unification. Meanwhile, China refused to associate with westerners and got gangbanged by France and Britain. Then, Japan just straight up attacked China in 1905 (I think) and totally established dominance
>>1278504
>China was even more strict on their isolation but Japan was open to being westernized.
Meme. Japan was no go for westerners save for the Dutch during the Tokugawa period.
China meanwhile had Jesuits in the late Ming and Qing courts and traded regularly with the Spics in the Philippines, the Portuguese in Macao, and in the numerous Dutch Legations in the 1700's and considered the Kingdom of France as its best European buddy. Famously
exchanging embassies with the Sun King.
They did not like two kinds the Europeans
1) Non-Jesuit Catholics. Its complicated. Read up on the Chinese Rites Controversy for this shit.
2) The British, because they had nothing of value (to the Chinese) to trade back, wool being abominable to the Chinese, and cotton being already abundant in China/got direct from Indian Princelings. In addition, British emissaries were rude and incapable of following local customs, and British sailors regularly got into trouble in Chinese ports by being drunk & rowdy.
Pic related, one of the first blow-by-blow accounts in France of news from East Asia was provided by the Jesuits who accompanied Kangxi's armies during his 10 Great Campaigns, providing French readers with engravings and accounts of battles conducted by Qing Armies in Tibet, Southern China, Mongolia, Uyghurstan, the losses in Burma and Vietnam, and the pirate pacification in Taiwan, complete with maps and engravings and all sanctioned by the Kangxi Emperor in hopes of impressing the French.
Modelling their navy on the British Royal Navy and buying European-made ships.
Sending their scientists and generals to Europe to learn from Europeans instead of staying isolated like the Chinese.
Chinese refused to learn from Westerners and thought they didn't need outside help.
Confidence from defeating Russia in the Russo Japanese war.
Confidence from their participation in WW1.
>>1278613
>As such, the Qing dynasty was too paralyzed by its bureaucracy and stagnant government to spearhead any significant reform movement
Sounds like the path America is heading down.
>>1278492
They didn't.
They had everything except the resources to maintain their empire. So in the end, their empire was useless as it was all worthless islands.
>>1278492
>rival the west
>>1280394
>jesuits
>>1281183
Actually the other orders and the pope fucked the Jesuits over in China.
>Be Jesuits
>Succeed in converting millions of Chinese because you coopted their beliefs and showed them Confucianism and Christianity did not clash at all.
>Other near-sighted orders see this shit and yell HERESY & BLASPHEMY.
>Tattles to the Pope.
>Pope believes their side and writes directly to the Chinese emperor addressing him like an equal.
>Qing Emperor gets assmad.
>ALL CATHOLICS GET OUT REEEEEEE.
This happened during the reigns of Yongle and Kangxi. Though the Jesuits managed to hang around, under watch this time, even during Qianlong's reign.
>>1278492
China was cut up by European countries.
Japan managed to stem off invasions because it's incredibly hard to invade an Island nation that's mostly mountains.
Hell, the only reason the UK isn't speaking French or German right now is because of the English Channel. And even the English could only take a tiny piece of Ireland.
>>1278492
Both were attacked by european powers. China thought 'Who cares, I'm better', Japan thought 'Shit, I better be like them'.
>>1281082
In East Asia they certainly did
>>1281324
Your opinion is opposite.
Japan accepted Europian power but Europian refused Japanese after WW1.
Japanese scientists in Edo-era studied Ducth academic books.
Therefore Japan can industrialized easily.
>>1281419
Because of some ridiculous Racial Equality clause presented to the League of Nations? Calm down, Hiroshi.
This is classic Japanese revisionist propaganda, Japan dindu nuffin but were emotionally so hurt by European indifference to racial equality they were forced to go on a rampage in Asia and across the Pacific. I don't think so, son.
>>1281527
Why did The US crackdown Japanese?
Why did Westerners support China?
It seems that Westerners feared the rise of Yellow monkey.
>>1281610
>Why did The US crackdown Japanese?
Because it's a dumb idea to supply a country that's massacring a bunch of civilians with more oil to continue doing so.
>Why did Westerners support China?
Business opportunities and to fuck over Japan, what else?
>It seems that Westerners feared the rise of Yellow monkey
Westerners feared the status quo being shook up and there being a war over who would get to dominate the Pacific. Don't Japanese fear the rise of China? Same shit, different era.
>>1281705
>Because it's a dumb idea to supply a country that's massacring a bunch of civilians
Do you need a lesson in geopolitics, son?
>>1281705
Don't you know The US crackdowned Jpanese before Sino-Japanese War?
>>1281716
Are you asking me if I want a lecture on whataboutism? No thanks, anon.
>>1281744
Because Japan was an aggressive rising power that was hellbent on taking by force what it deemed to be inherently theirs. We did the right thing even in hindsight considering what your faggot leaders did from 1937 - 1945.
Let me ask you this, should the US and Japan be containing China right now? If you think so, you are a giant hypocrite.
>>1281610
>Why did The US crackdown Japanese?
They didn't.
Japanese tried to crack US down. We all know how it ended up.
Oh wait sorry, it were the American warships that touched bombs/torpedoes and made them explode, not the other way round.
>>1281705
>Don't Japanese fear the rise of China?
Republic of China which couldn't dominate all mainland was corruption.
Japan was supported by many Chinese.
>>1278492
First to westernize because westerners BTFO them first
>>1281785
I'm not talking about the ROC, I'm talking about the current PRC. For all of the shit Chinese and Japanese give each other, the PRC is in a similar situation Japan was in back then.
I'm asking you to take your beliefs about Japan's Showa era situation and apply them to a similar scenario that's happening nowadays.
>>1281263
>the only reason the UK isn't speaking French or German right now is because of the English Channel.
Or maybe because public schooling and standardized language is an invention of the 1700's?
>>1281785
>Japan was supported by many Chinese.
Wew
>>1281813
PRC is similar to Quin just before The opium war.
>>1281878
No, the PRC is similar to Imperial Japan just before the conquest of Manchuria.
>>1281881
PRC's economy is not reality.
Their power is Sleeping lion.
EU and US accuse the PRC of dumping.
>>1278492
What were the actual circumstances of the Meiji restoration's modernization, anyway?
How did Japan not have mass starvation and other problems from it as we know happened to other rapid industrialization efforts like China or Russia?
>>1282106
Because their main diet was rice and seafood. Rice is generally easy to grow/harvest in the right conditions, and seafood was obviously abundant around their main island.
>>1281785
>Japan was supported by many Chinese.
Admiring =/= Supporting.
It was admired as an example of how East Asians can compete with the west. Until Japan went buttmad nationalist, that incident with Zhang Zuolin and Manchuria anyway.
Qing Dynasty fucked things up. The rest of Asia was so weak they were conquered by the Europeans.
Japan isolation, lack of valuable trade goods, and general competence of govenrment, kept them safe.
Though the British and Americans had a hand in opening the country up and then restoring the Emperor to power.
>>1282106
>How did Japan not have mass starvation and other problems from it
I think that usually happens when you try to do massive agricultural reforms and balls it up, rather than just trying to industrialize.
To my knowledge, and I might be wrong since I'm not an expert, Japan didn't attempt any broad agriculture consolidation during the Meiji reformation.
As for the political instability, there was some, but the Meiji government basically coopted the old feudal aristocracy and gave them positions of privilege in the new system, rather than just giving them the boot like in China and Russia.
>>1282201
>Japan didn't attempt any broad agriculture consolidation during the Meiji reformation.
Japan didn't have to because they had that during the Tokugawa era.
That's why they industrialized so easily.
>>1282151
China wasn't One China
>>1280748
>>Sending their scientists and generals to Europe to learn from Europeans instead of staying isolated like the Chinese.
This. Japan has been a "satellite country" which exists near some big civilization and basically imports culture from it. Japan accepted foreign Chinese culture before. So there's no hesitation of accepting another foreign culture. Western culture just took the place of Chinese. Except Christianity. The idea of Christianity has been so bizarre to the Japanese.
>>1281934
> 19 trillion dollar economy (PPP) is not reality
> Things like AIIB was all sleeping lion
> China annihilating EU and US steelmills through dumping is weakness
wew lad
