Does western civilization start with the Greeks?
>>12699
More or less. You could say that our religious and political structures are derived from Greek philosophy.
>>12699
Egypt actually. But Greece is a close contender.
>>12851
>egypt
>west
pick one
Ok so I ask you guys: What do you consider Western Civilization?
Countries from Europe and America?
or countries which followed the teachings from the Age of Enlightenment (i.e: advanced technology, morals, etc)?
By the latest definition, Japan & South Korea would be part of the Western Civilization
>>12960
>he doesn't know about alexandria
>>12986
Western Civilization isn't a synonym for Enlightenment ideals, and never has been.
>>12986
>Western civilization traces its roots back to Europe and the Mediterranean. It is linked to the former Western Roman Empire and with Medieval Western Christendom who emerged from feudalism to experience such transformative historical episodes as the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution and the development of liberal democracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Western_civilization
>>12986
Are you stupid?
>he believes in "the West"
>>13063
how is it not?
Yes, and the Romans who took it to new lengths and heights, the HRE then picked it up, and it stayed in Europe until planting the seed in other colonies from which one, the North American colonies did it sprout and grow to become the greatest western civilized country on this good Earth- the United States of America, descendent of Rome itself, the apex of western civilization.
Greeks weren't Western, they were part of a Mediterranean civilization.
Western civilization as we know it, with Northwestern Europe at it's core, began only after the Muslim conquests tore the Mediterranean world in half. Without access to the population centers of the Eastern mediterranean, the West had to reorient itself. If I had to pinpoint a moment, I'd say the Donation of Pepin is the moment when Western civilization as we know it truly began. That's the moment where the Papacy ceases it's allegiance to Constantinople and seek protection from the Franks of Gaul, creating a new North-South axis around which Christianity would further eastwards. Pic related, the spread of Christianity until that moment was limited to the former Roman Empire and Mediterranean world (with the notable exception of Ireland). After the Donation of Pepin, and specially under Charlemagne, Christianity expands eastwards and Europe is born with the Mediterranean not as a heard but as a southern border.
>>13380
Are you implying that med civilization is not western?
>>13487
That's exactly what I'm saying. Western civilization arises from the ruins of mediterranean civilization, but it's not the same thing.
>>13380
Well at least you tried to a serious argument instead of yelling about "muh Thule" and "muh Aryans" like most of the /pol/acks who want to rewrite history, but Romans and Greeks are the origins of western civilization.
>>13590
>Romans and Greeks are the origins of western civilization.
This. I still give him a B for at least trying to sound reasonable.
>>13184
What are western countries before the enlightenment then?
>>13380
Good elaborated bait but you stink, /pol/.
>>13575
So you're saying that the Romans and Greeks which basically were the first to truly develop western civilization are NOT western?
>>12699
It starts with the Minoans. Whether you can call them Greek or not I do not know.
>>13734
This guy knows what's up, and yes they are separate from Greeks.
>>12699
No, it starts with Mesopotamia like everything. Greeks only learnt how to think smartly (see Anaximander). It worked as a canvas for western civilisation but definitely it wasn't the basis.
Persians
>>12960
The Greeks got developed their wisdom from Egypt. The knowledge traveled north. Dont be some stupid to think that Greek wise men didnt travel to Egypt to study.
>>13817
>it starts with Mesopotamia like everything
What is China and Mesoamerica?
>>12699
You can trace the greek alphabet from Phoenician scripture to Egyptian scripture
That said, the greeks pretty much invented what western means.
>>12986
Western Civilization is synonymous with the White Aryan race, which spawned aeons ago from northernmost hyperborea and gave rise to all human achievement. Check out book in pic related for the truth about the divine/extraterrestrial origins of the Aryan race
>http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/L/La/Lanz_Adolf-Joseph_-_Theozoology.pdf
>>13872
Like i said everything. Sumers stood before those civilisaitons arose.
>>13842
This is why the Minoans are the true source of western civilization. They synthesized the cultures of Egypt and Phoenicia with the native Mycenaean culture. Minoan civilization is objectively the origin place of the west.
>>13842
Greeks developed their wisdom from Persia.
A lot of Greek philosophers and mathematicians such as Anaximander actually went to Persia to get educated. If you read Xenophon's works, then you'd see a lot of Greeks went to Persia to get educated and such. Persians were very progressive and such, but we lost most of that when Alexander burned Persepolis' library. Granted, from looking at Greek sources, you can make the inferences that both Greeks and Persians contributed a lot.
>>13872
Mesoamerican civilisation began long after places like China, the Indus valley or Mesopotamia.
>>13380
Absolutely this. Talking about Greece being part of the West is like calling Assyria Islamic. The West is derived from Greece, but Greece was not a part of it.
Here's how I think of it: Egypt and Mesopotamia created West Eurasian civilization (needs a better name). West Eurasian civilization spread into other areas like India and the Mediterranean, where civilization became differentiated to the point that we get two new ones, Indian and Classical civilizations.
Classical civilization is born of the Greeks with Phoenician influence, and then spread throughout the Mediterranean and supersedes Egyptian/Mesopotamian civilizations with Alexander. Classical civilization flourishes under Greece and Rome, and to a lesser extent Persia (though Persia becomes more differentiated under the Sassanids).
When Rome declines, Classical civilization diversifies into three new civilizations, the West, Orthodoxy, and Islam. Each of them is equally a successor to the Classical world, though there are also new influences like Sassanid influence on Islam and Germanic influence on the West.
Treating Greece and medieval Europe as if they were the same thing, somehow excluding Byzantium and Islam, just makes no sense. You might as well say that Egypt is Western too.
>>13901
> a wild /pol/ack appears
So, the invasion begins.
>>13973
>Talking about Greece being part of the West is like calling Assyria Islamic.
Wouldn't it be more like calling Assyria Middle Eastern, which isn't wrong?
>>13964
Very true, but it can't be said to be derived from Sumeria or China unless you're suggesting the Babylonians reached the Americans by boat.
>>14078
I don't think anyone was saying it was derived that way. Mesoamerican civilisation arose independently of the old world civilisations.
>>14078
There were thousands of year gaps between those events. China and Mesoamerican civilisations evolved independently, but they came from the same place, Mesopotamia.
>>13995
Solid point, but that argument basically says that the period of Greek history prior to the rise of the Persian Empire is irrelevant, and I don't agree.
If we're talking where the concept of urban civilization came from then it is the Sumerians and Egyptians no question, but the distinct features of western civilization came from the Minoans and, later on, the Achaemenid Persians.
>>14209
What? Chinese and Mesoamerican civilisation arose independently of Mesopotamian civilisation.
What do you think?
>>14042
No, because the Middle East is just a geographic region, while the West is a civilization with a common culture and development.
The Greeks are the source of Western civilization, but they're also the source of Islamic and Orthodox civilization, and the Greeks themselves developed from Mesopotamian/Egyptian civilization. Taking the Greeks and calling them Western is as arbitrary as taking any other group and calling them a part of any group that developed out of them. You could say that Sumeria is Orthodox or Egypt is Islamic and it would basically be the same thing. There's no reason to take the Greeks, the Romans, and Gothic Europe and put them in one group that excludes everyone else. It makes no sense, it's just an idea that's ingrained in our minds to the point that we don't question it.
>>13901
I like to know more about your theories of Ancient Aryans considering they were the most primitive.
>>14364
But 'The West' is just another geographic term as well. Why shouldn't it apply to Western Eurasia?
>>14273
It's hyperdiffusionism, one of the most retarded views of history there is. Don't bother replying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperdiffusionism_in_archaeology
>>13734
Probably this.
>tfw Linear A will likely never be deciphered
>>14444
Ah ok, thanks.
>>14444
Dint you know the Vikings ancestors built the Pyramids!
>>14209
And here I thought the dumbest thing I heard today would come from a /pol/ poster and not someone who's serious.
You can say that western civilization came from Sumeria and you'd probably be right.
A solid argument could also be made for the Sumerians being the source of Indus Valley and Egyptian civilization,
But believing that Mesopotamia is the source of Chinese and Mesoamerican civilization is absolutely retarded. That is /pol/ tier revisionism that sounds like something an Iraqi version of Hitler would come up with.
>>14273
They have to came from somewhere right? Humans had evoled in Africa, then they came to Mesopotamia somewhere in time, and after that, they went to other places. Mesopotamia is the root.
>>14431
>But 'The West' is just another geographic term as well
No it's not. When people talk about the West, they're talking about a civilization, specifically that of Catholic/Protestant Europe and its colonies. It's about culture and institutions, not any kind of geographic boundary. The Middle East, on the other hand, is a geographic region. Sure, you can use it in a cultural sense, but when you use it in that sense it would never include Assyria.
>>14554
I think you are confused about what a civilisation is.
>>13712
No, they were a Mediterranean civilization, like the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, the Syriacs etc.
I don't know why my post caused such a negative reaction. Do you think I'm some white nationalist? I'm basically just retelling the Pirenne thesis. It is discredited among most professional historians, but I'm still cling to it.
>>14444
> those quads
> that outing of a retard
Based anon is based. Please be king of /his/.
>>14604
I respect your views even though I don't share them. Keep on keeping on anon.
>>14570
>but when you use it in that sense it would never include Assyria.
Why not? There are Assyrians there right now.
I've never seen anyone not count Ancient Greece as part of Western Civilization. I think you're confusing it with the more modern political phrase 'The West' that split off from Western Civ just recently.
Whenever Catholic/Protestant Europe is mentioned, it's usually as Western Europe and not the West until the Cold War.
>>14809
No, do you? Why do you mention Mesopotamia in relation to those civilisations when you agree that they arose independently?
>>13943
such such such such such
>>13734
This desu, Greeks and Egyptians, while important, are heavily derived from Minoans
I of course can still claim superiority because of my pure Cretan blood =^)
>>12699
The separation between western and eastern is illogic. There are blue eyed blonde nordics in the middle east and asia, in Pakistan and Afghanistan there are still populations of Aryans with surviving nordic traits.
What you refer by western civilization I consider Aryan civilization, anything that came from the Aryans, following this logic, no it didn't, it started with the Vedic civilization in North India, they were the first big civilization created by the Aryans after their invasion of Eurasia. Astronomy, Mathematics, philosophy, the modern form of all these subjects we consider to be typical from the greek civilization were first developed by the Vedas, later the Greeks developed them even more. The Persians are also Aryans so anything they co-developed with the aforementioned civilizations also comes from the Aryans.
>>14763
>Why not? There are Assyrians there right now
I mean ancient Assyria. 'Middle East' used in a geographic sense includes them, but in a cultural sense, which is synonymous with Islam, you can't because they were not Isalmic. My whole point is that talking about the West in ancient Greece is as anachronistic as talking about Islamic civilization in Assyria.
This has nothing to do with Cold War stuff. What I'm saying is that Catholic/Protestant Europe is itself a distinct civilization, which was born only after the fall of Rome, and which we today call the 'West'. Orthodox Europe is (or at least was) a separate civilization, as is the Islamic world. All three come from the Classical world, but the Classical world was not a part of either of them.
You could use the term 'West' differently, and say that every civilization derived from Greece is Western, but then you'd need to include Islam too which isn't what people generally have in mind as 'Western'.
Regardless of which way you use 'West', there is no justification for saying that Greece, Rome, and Catholic/Protestant Europe are one group that excludes Islam and Orthodoxy.
>>15066
Aryan is not a civilisation. What you are referring to is a linguistic grouping.
>>13943
Sad to see what happens when you store all the worlds knowledge in one place. The destruction of the libraries in Alexandria and Persepolis are probably the worst moments in humanities history.
>>15071
Why not just call Catholic/Protestant Europe Latin Christendom?
>>12699
>tigris and euphrates
>egypt
>israel
>greece
>rome
>western / central europe and mid east / turkey
>USA
That's how US/Western history is taught anyway.
>>15104
Common language comes from common genealogy/lineage. All Aryans languages come from Proto-indo-european, because they descend from the same ancestors. The Aryans, or Indo-Europeans, as you prefer to call it, are a meta-ethnicity. The term "meta" because it's very broad and extends all accross Eurasia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis
>>15237
Nope. You can have language diffusion without massive amounts of genetic exchange.
>>13033
Which was built by a Greek.
West & East European civilization derive from the Western and Eastern halves of the former Roman Empire respectively. Prior to that it was all Roman, which had roots in Greece and Egypt. So, while Greece and Greeks have had influence on Western ways, Greece is still East European.
>>14444
No it's not. Anon was simply talking about mesopotamia is the main branch of civilisations. You guys are stupid.
>>14518
>A solid argument could also be made for the Sumerians being the source of Indus Valley
make it.
right now.
>>14855
Mesopotamia directly, or indireclty influenced every single civilisation in this world. With myths, or language, that's an undeniable fact that everyone owns somehting from them.
>>15278
>exchange
What do you even mean with that? what does genetic mixing between two different populations have to do with their origin? I'm talking about the same genetic origin, a population that multiplied and originated other populations in new lands. Having the same ancestor means you have the same origin. The anthropological concept of Ethnicity is: Race (genealogy) + Culture.
>>15194
It really doesn't matter what you call it, so long as it's recognized for what it is and not treated like it's Greece's direct and only successor.
I call it West because that's what West generally means to most people, even if the historic view is warped.
Were Carthaginians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Canaanites/Israelites western?
If not then probably the Greeks.
>>15657
>Mesoamericans were certainly cut off long before the Mesopotamians founded their civilisations
Show me something which belongs SOLELY to the mesoamerican or chinese civilisation. Show me something which didn't take it's basis from Gilgamesh or other Mesopotamian myths. You just can't.
>>15544
The real question is where do Greeks fall on a continuum? Were they more western or Eastern?
>>15657
>You can have languages spread without having a mass movement of people.
I know. Seeing as it's not the case of my post, this fact is unrelated to this topic and my original post.
>>15445
I can't honestly. You've caught me. Well played anon.
>>15897
What the fuck? Mesoamericans had NO contact with Mesopotamia and were not influenced by them at all whatsoever.
>>15903
There is no western or eastern. There are just cultures.
>>15941
>Mesoamericans had NO contact with Mesopotamia and were not influenced by them at all whatsoever
Is this the result of American education system?
What's western civilization? If it's the Hellenistic cultural sphere you have to count the rest of the middle east, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.
If it's the part of the Roman Empire that stayed Christian, or the Western Roman Empire, or the areas of Carolingian influence, then you don't really get to claim Greece as an origin because it's a silly place to draw the line.
>>15897
The iroqoi concept of impeachment, human sacrifice, the terraced gardens of potato built into mountains, advanced stone age construction techniques like what macchu Picchu had.
For the Chinese there is almost too much to list. Are you even trying son?
>>12699
as a distinct entity it does
obviously it has roots in the Near-East, Egypt and Minos, but none of those were uniquely European save for maybe the Minoans but the Greeks revolutionized everything here and made Europe a separate cultural entity.
>>15955
It's not a shitpost. I listed Indus Valley because in the spur of the moment it seems like something that someone could find a halfway legitimate source for, but I don't believe that Mesopotamia had anything to do with Indus Valley civilization.
I can't offer a solid argument in favor of the view so I concede.
>>15990
Provide credible sources crackpot.
Pretty sure they had already crossed the Bering straight land bridge well and truly before Mesopotamia.
I'd say fertile crescent/Mesopotamian
a significant amount of people traveled to egypt once famine started
they brought a bunch of the culture that became "egyptian" culture which in turn became greek culture
everything is pretty interwoven though so it is up to personal interpretation
>>13901
Please go back to /pol/. I love /pol/ but I want it contained on /pol/.
>>12986
Catholic/Protestant Europe and the Americas
>>16091
Didn't they have contact with the Indus valley by virtue of that being where agriculture was first developed?
>>16027
You are thinking too straight, here's a homework, just compare the creation myths and deities of both civilisations.
>>15066
Aryans where brown retard
>>16121
Arbitrary line in the sand
>>16091
heh, thanks
they traded but thats about it.
there is no evidence that they influenced each other culturally.
>>16154
Lol, they definitely shared a common ancestor (as all humanity does) but you're either trolling or an idiot.
Post literally any source that proves your assertion or gtfo
>>16169
hardly
Christianity is the defining attribute of Western civilization as a unitary entity, the East-West split is over Christianity as well (orthodoxy and Catholic)
>>16168
Aryans allegedly spread their culture, technology and things like chariots into Europe. Im also pretty sure that it's proven that genetically the people living in Europe currently are most closely related to those that lived there in prehistory.
>>16217
>lol
>gtfo
Oh sorry anon, i didn't knew that i was dealing with a middle school student.
Sea peoples.
>>15990
The land bridge connecting Asia to North America disappeared about 11,000 Years Ago. The Sumerians only appeared about 7kish years ago.
Mesoamericans had limited to no cultural contact with the rest of the world until the spanish showed up.
>>16287
Too dumb to refute anything so this is what you're left with.
Get a vasectomy
>>16269
No, the people living there in prehistory were related to groups like the Basque, whom indo-europeans display.
It is the reason why the basque language is such a language isolate.
>>16306
It's sad that you even had to post this.
Next this halfwit will say that the messopotamians directly influenced the neanderthals, Maoris, Sentinelese, indigenous Papua new Guineans and Australian aboriginies.
Aryan origin mythists are just as bad as people claiming the ancient Egyptians were black desu senpai baka.
>>16127
Possible I guess but I don't know. Most evidence points to the Indus Valley developing agriculture independently of Mesopotamia. Do some research on it anon, many of us would be interested in what sources you find.
>>16171
Yeah I figured there wasn't. I want to keep discussion on this board as civil as possible for as long as possible.
>>16332
https://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-actual-Aryans-Europeans-Iranians-or-Indians
Nah, their languages are of indo-european origin but they are genetically distinct from Northern indians
>>16416
I never claimed that I was a different poster lol. So essentially all you have done is ad hominem, baseless assertions that are blatantly false and accused me of samefagging whilst actually samefagging.
Why are you even here?
>>16456
Basque has no connection whatsoever with proto-indoeuropean besides that which was introduced to it long after it formed as a distinct langauge.
Calling basque an indo-european language is the most laughably retarded thing I've ever heard in my life. The reason it is so interesting is that it is one of the few langauges native to Europe that isn't.
>>16154
They definitely hold a similarity, but that's a reeaally vague line.
I don't understand people when they want concrete arguments as in cases like this.
>>16168
What the fuck? where did you take that from? the original Aryans were tall, blonde nordics, it's a historical fact. I can show you anthropologic resources proving that.
The term Aryan means noble or high in Sanskrit, the oldest know indo-european language and alphabet, it's how the Arayns in India used to describe themselves and their own culture, the Iran and Ireland also come from this same proto-indo-european etymologic root. When the Aryans conquered India they considered their military and social superiority to be based on the fairness of their traits, how Indra crushed the primitive and inferior foes, it's written in the very RigVeda, how they considered the negroid-australoid populations (dravidian) of southern india to be inferior because of their dark complexions, that's why they created the castes, a system of segregation to prevent mixing between the superior brahmas and the inferior sudras.
http://www.afghanchamber.com/history/RigVeda.htm
http://www.san.beck.org/EC7-Vedas.html
Watch this video if you don't believe me, Srila Prabhupada is one of the biggest authorities in vedic brahmanism of the 20th century, if your racism and prejudice against white people will prevent you from listening to a white man, listen to a Indian brahmani himself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwKaDxEoKhg
>>16515
I was actually referring to the rest of Europeans saying that while yes, their languages are descended from an indo-european common ancestor they remain genetically distinct and are still very much related to the peoples that lived in Europe in prehistory.
>>16602
Hold it, red card for being a white nationalist. Back to /pol/ you go.
>>16608
Then you'd know that proto-indoeuropean only developed around 3500 BC. Long after there were already civilizations all around the world.
Proto-Afroasiatic is around 4.5k years older.
>>16510
>lol
Are there serioulsy people who use this unironically? Honestly, just get out, both of you.
pretty sure it started in Sumer, which we now know was gifted to us by the aliens from Planet X
>>16685
How is that even relevant to what we are discussing?
>>16608
People were living in Europe long before the indo-europeans showed up. The indo-europeans displaced them.
This happened way after things like Sumeria and the indus valley civilization.
>>16702
Lol
>>16733
Because Indo-Iranian (aryan) is a descendant of proto-indoeuropean.
>>12699
It starts and ends.
>>16269
Not allegadly, it's proven by archaeology. The people that lived in Europe were pre-indo-european (not Aryans), the nordic traits were brought to Europe with the Aryans, after the Aryan invasion of Europe they introduced these technologies, crop techniques and animal husbandry, horse riding and chariots, metal weapons... the pre-indo-european populations were mostly hunter-gatherers and they had an animist form of shamanism that worshipped Earth, the Arayns introduced the panthons of gods with human traits, all the branches of the indo-european culture have the same pantheon with minor regional differences, for example, Zeus (and Jupiter), Odin, Dagda, Perun, Brahma... are different versions of the same God, coming from the proto-indo-european pantheon.
Many of their ideas were passed on, so it's fair to say that they did heavily influence it's creation. If those ideas were not passed on, Western Civilization would be different, but there's no saying as to if it would be totally gone.
>>16793
>they had an animist form of shamanism that worshipped Earth,
There is literally no way to know this. No trace remain of pre-indoeuropean religion beyond things like religious objects. We have no idea what their myths were like.
>>16736
>The indo-europeans displaced them.
Not always and definitely not entirely. I've read numerous historians who believe that indo-european was learned for trade purposes and even so, often when peoples are conquered they adopt the language and culture of their rulers yet remain true to their genetic roots such as contemporary Anatolia which is genetically very much still Greek.
>>16510
Argument started with his mesopotamia quote and then he actually apologized for using it broadly. He was talking about anthropologic roots, not historical. Not even him, but i don't know what are you actually trying to prove in here.
>>16855
Populations are generally never totally destroyed. There is always mixing, but the term displaced here refers to it in a linguistic sense.
The key point is that they weren't indo-europeans.
>>16861
>not even him
Confirmed for samefagging.
You doubled down on saying that messopotamians directly influenced mesoamericans and now you're still carrying on with your utter idiocy. Fuck off.
>>16934
I think it has parellels with latins influence in Europe, influencing many languages yet long after the western Roman empire fell the Lombards, Franks, Iberians and Thracians remained albeit with a different language and culture.
>>16951
This desu senpai
>>16951
>You doubled down on saying that messopotamians directly influenced mesoamericans
>Mesopotamia directly, or indireclty influenced every single civilisation in this world. With myths, or language, that's an undeniable fact
Just show me the place at where did he actualy states it.
>>17040
It wasn't just a linguistic shift though, there was very much a larger migration of people. Enough people to become the dominant.
The amount of movement and mixture will probably be always unknown.
>ywn speak Indo-European
>>17088
>China and Mesoamerican civilisations evolved independently, but they came from the same place, Mesopotamia.
>>17235
No it isn't, especially if you're talking about Sumeria.
>>16951
>but they came from the same place, Mesopotamia
By "coming from the same place" do you only understand civilisation? Are you really that dumb? He also said "I was talking in broader terms. Sorry for misunderstatement."after that. Seriously, you guys were arguing for literally nothing.
>>17262
I was quoting an idiot I don't believe that
>>17205
"INDOEUROPEAN" IS A LINGUISITIC FAMILY, NOT A LANGUAGE.
>>17316
Mesoamericans and messopotamians had nothing to do with each other, what are you talking about?!
>>17316
Samefagging, again. Smh desu
>>17353
>*ywn speak proto-Indo-European
>>12699
>western civilization
I don't think we've quite reached that point yet, desu
>Sumerians influencing mesoamericans
Holy shit this is retarded
>25-11k BC, movement of people to North America
>7000 BC Pengtoushan culture is growing rice in China
>5000-3500 BC Beginning of Mesopotamian civilization
China predates Mesopotamian civilization by 2000 years.
>>17385
Not fucking him, again. Just tired both of your baseless accusations and wanted to end this conversation. I'm starting to believe that you're a shitposter.
>>17432
NO ANON, YOU IDIOT IT IS AN UNDENIABLE FACT!
>>17439
>samefagging and pretending to be an independent third party
>>17515
I can't help breaking in when people start cherry picking each other's arguments. Sorry anon but you're a bigger retard.
>>17582
There is no cherry picking, he doubled down. Those two peoples had nothing to do with each other directly or indirectly both temporally and geographically and to claim otherwise is absolute idiocy.
>>17391
PROTOINDOEUROPEAN CAN BE LEARNED.
"STARTER SET":
— "COMPARATIVE INDOEUROPEAN LINGUISTICS" BY ROBERT STEPHEN PAUL BEEKES.
— "PROTOINDOEUROPEAN SYNTAX" BY WINFRED PHILIP LEHMANN.
— "ENCYCLOPEDIA OF INDOEUROPEAN CULTURE" BY JOSEPH PATRICK MALLORY, AND DOUGLAS QUENTIN ADAMS.
— "THE OXFORD DICTIONARY TO PROTOINDOEUROPEAN AND THE PROTOINDOEUROPEAN WORLD" BY JOSEPH PATRICK MALLORY, AND DOUGLAS QUENTIN ADAMS.
— "INDOEUROPEAN LINGUISTICS" BY MICHAEL MEIER BRUGGER.
>mesoamericans and had dealings with sumerians
Fuck this board
>>17646
>Those two peoples had nothing to do with each other directly or indirectly both temporally and geographically
he was actually saying the same thing. He was trying to say that they were anthropologically related and this could led a primitive interaction between cultures at some degree.
>>16851
We have some remnants. The oldest works of art (so to speak) we have depict animals and humans (interestingly the depictions of the sun and the stars are much less old). Anon's post was highly conjectural still.
>>17658
How did the indo-europeans get go Scandanavia and are suomi and Magyar related to basque?
>>17817
Basque as far as we know has no relation whatsoever with any other language
There's probably a few theories, but nothing conclusive
>>17791
Now you're interpretting his posts very liberally and you're akin to the people who say that Nostradamus predicted 9/11
>>16169
Considering the border between Catholic and Orthodox Christianity still more or less traces the border between the Western and Eastern Roman Empire, I'd say you're full of shit.
>>17791
No, i was just re-reading his posts. Many of the legends and traditions are older than written history. This might be transmitted somewhere in the neolithic age, who knows.
>yfw Maoris are actually sumerians
>>12699
I'd say it starts with the indo-european migrations but thats just being pedantic.
>>13901
>>17934
This is the most tenuous shit ever. Sure, all humans are essentially related but you have no proof and only conjecture. It's like debating a creationist.
>>17940
Source?
The ancient Sumerians rode their wolves into battle against the native American warriors. Pic related.
>>18027
"coming from the same place" itself is a tenuous argument, if that's the case, but if you actually look at that way it kinda makes sense, at least it makes sense for me.
>>17851
Aliens ?
>>18093
Does this mean he actually trolled us? Oh shit.
>>18093
Is it a reference to out of Africa? Sure, we all came from the same place but the Mesoamericans peoples were long since separated from Messopotamians and any stories or shared history would have long since been rewritten due to the limitations of an oral history.
Similarly there was a lot of variation between the religions and cultures of the Americas like totemist, animist religions and established empires/regional hegemons versus nomadic peoples.
>>18206
Probably related the Europeans that were there before the Indo-Europeans swept in
>>18250
>Probably related the Europeans that were there before the Indo-Europeans swept in
You mean the Sumarian colonists?
Anyway I'd say that Western/European civilization emerges after the fall of the Roman Empire, with the Franks/Catholics and Byzantines/Orthodox which are inexorably linked but also distinct. Potentially you could include a sort of North Sea/Baltic alignment which would be the stronghold of Protestantism later on. Intellectually, ancient Greece and ancient Rome are the predecessors but I don't know that once can say that they are one and the same as Western/European civilization.
>>18249
Never underestimate the power of the oral history anon. I was thinking about he's an idiot too, but this point of view came into my mind and i understood what he actually meant to.
>>15303
But inhabited by Egyptians.
New York was built by the Dutch.
soo, i don't get it. is this mesoamerican dude right or not?
>>16660
>Proving my point with brainless reply
Typical.
>>16777
Obviously I know what Aryavarta is. The Aryan homeland has been placed by anthropologists in the asian russian steppes, around what's today Kazakhstan, near the Aral sea, from there they invaded India, Europe and the Middle east, and in India they developed the Vedic civilization. The term Arya was used not only by the vedas but throughout all the Aryan territories, as I sai the country name Iran and Ireland also come from the word Arya. Again, read the Kurgan hypothesisi, it's the most widely accept theory about the origin of the indo-european meta-ethnicity and the civilizations of the Indus velley.
I'm done replying in this thread, since this is 4chan I'll only get troll replies from frustrated idiots without arguments that can't accept facts, like the first guy I'm replying to in this post. I have debated this topic with many people, I've answered a guy extensively on my Youtube channel about this topic, everything about the Aryan origin I explained there.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQFmH97VebOEB_eFMfRKmng/discussion?lc=z13gexuankaeixbhm04ciptr0yvphbhwfzs0k
>>12699
What is "Western Civilization"?
Because I 'm pretty sure that the Greeks were feeling much closer to, say, the Levant than to Western Europe; and the Westerners weren't associating themselves with the Greeks up until like after the first millenium.
>>18404
Dunno, but i'm pretty sure that he's a really good b8r.
>>18404
He's right. We are all Sumerians.
