>Ukraine is the true slavic, sole legitimate heir of the Kievan Rus while Russia is the bastard sucessor of the mongol horde
>Ukraine is an artificial state created by Communists and sponsored by the US in more modern times
Which of these is true? Which of these is false?
False dilemma.
>>1228436
None of yer black 'n white thinking son
What's an "artificial state?"
>>1228472
Any nation I don't like.
>>1228436
Modern Ukraine is product of Polish and later Austrian rule over formerly Russian principalities.
Ethnically speaking Ukrainians and Russians and Belorussians are same nation. East Slavs never diverged enough on their own to be considered different nations.
Culturally speaking, most of them are same.
However in practice regions like West Ukraine had a lot more Polish and Austrian (Catholic) influence and thus you can't really call them Russians. This is where Ukrainian identity exists. It was a region where Catholicism and Orthodoxy met and obviously this created a distinct culture.
However, most of modern Ukraine is not inhabited by those people, it's inhabited by people who are literally flavored Russians, with little difference in culture and mentality from other Russians.
So yes, modern Ukraine was created by Lenin.
>>1228556
>This is what Russians actually believe
>>1228578
I'm not a Russian, and that's actual history.
Ukrainian identity really exists in regions that were formerly dominated by Catholic Poland.
All arguments I saw against this are pretty much idiotic bullshit that depends on the people not knowing basics of Eastern European history and getting swindled by lies.
>t-they're Ruthenians (literally foreign name for Russians)
>K-KIEV Rus'!!111 (ignoring all the other principalities, like Novgorod, or Vladimir-Suzdal)
>t-they have been Russified! (ignoring Polonization that preceded it)
>Russians are Mongols! (not an argument)
>Moscow didn't exist!
>C-Cossacks! (ignoring those cossacks unironically revolted and picked Russian Tsar over Poland, and ignoring cossacks in Russia)
And so on.
>>1228604
>Strawmanning this hard
>>1228609
>one line meme replies
Wow, that changes everything. You're trully a master of historical debate, good sir!
>>1228626
First make something more coherent than white noise, Ivan.
>>1228636
I did. You have no arguments so you resort to ad hominem.
>>1228604
>>1228609
>>1228646
rekt
>>1228646
Stuttering memes doesn't really count as anything substantial, tbqh.
>>1228667
Muscovites on suicide watch
>>1228682
Have a free poster
>>1228496
>>1228667
The russian coat of arms is a copy of the Byzantine one. The ukranian one a copy of the kievan rus. They're both paradigmatic examples of wewuzism.
>>1228436
both are true
>>1228604
How do you explain that many oblasts deciding to join Ukraine in 1917-9 then?
>>1228436
None is really true but the second is kind of closer to truth. You can see it clearly in this thread, where those defending the first sentence offer educated opinions and sensible arguments while the others just meme and whine.
>>1228747
Where those defending the second sentence, I meant.
>>1228725
>We wuz byzantium + kievan rus lol
ok vatnik
Russia should just rename itself to Moskovia and admit its tatar past. Also it should really really really stop pretending to be the flagman of Slavs and Orthodoxy, this shit is just embarassing to the rest.
>>1228791
Also they should give back Crimea and Kuban to Ukraine, and Karelia and Murmansk to Finland.
Also they should give Independence to the whole Leningrad Oblast as Ingermanlandiya.
