Someone please set me straight about Montenegro-Serbian-Yugoslavia relations in regards to a strict timeline, each marker/point only consisting of short phrases please.
I understand Montenegro was part of Serbia, and Serbia was part of Yugoslavia, but the timeline doesn't make sense.
It's like it went back and forth a few times.
Also, so Montenegrins consider themselves Serbian, and so Mont-Serbians consider themselves Yugo, or what?
>itt highschool homework
>>>/hm/
try the homework board OP
dead croats, b*snian genocide and valuable kosovar clay will come to you, but only if you post "fuck off nato" in this thread
>>1228086
I've been on 4chan for five years, and I still forgot my boards for long enough to click on that link.
For whatever reason, I was expecting it to be /fk/.
>>1228090
fuck off nato
>>1228079
>>1228086
I'm not doing homework.
My favorate artist is Montenegrin, but she also identifies as Yugoslavian, while her mother, also an artist, is from the same area and identifies as Montenegrin and Serbian.
I'm 33, not a kid.
The way it appears:
- Kingdom of Yugo, including Serbia, which included Mont, until 1991
- Then Yugo let go, and there was the Union State of Mont and Serb
- Then Serb let go of Mont in 2006 and Yugo completely dissolved in 2006
That's what I'm getting from Wikipedia.
>Artist is Darja Bajagic BTW
>>1228090
Fuck off NATO.
>>1228072
In 1878 Serbia and Montenegro became fully recognized independent countries.
Montenegro (or parts of it) were not under Ottoman rule, because it's a fucking mountain with armed people scattered around and the Turks couldn't be arsed to govern it.
Serbs and Montenegrins are one and the same, tho Montenegro has a distinct regional identity. In fact the first recognized Serbian kingdom was mostly what is now Montenegro.
They agreed on unification, but left it as a coming soon tm.
Tho because of various political and dynastic disputes it wasn't coming to fruition. 1903 was the best time for it, after the king of Serbia was assassinated and his dynasty Obrenovic extinguished , but the Serbian parliament chose to give the crown to son in law of the king of Montenegro (instead of the king of Montenegro himself) who was a Karadjordjevic. The dynasty that was at odds with the Obrenovic.
Montenegrin school textbooks stated that all Montenegrins are Serbs, no, the most heroic and noble of all other Serbs. Pic related, i'll translate the whole thing if you want.
In 1918 after the end of WW1 the Montenegrin parliament discussed the terms of unification with Serbia. It was decided that the king of Montenegro was a traitor for running away during WW1 and that Montenegro will be unconditionally unified with Serbia under the Karadjordjevic dynasty. Which in retrospect is no big deal since the heir to the throne was the grandson of the king of Montenegro, and was born and raised in Montenegro.
The decision of the parliament lead to a short civil war/insurrection called the Christmas uprising with the green party backed by Italy fought the white party backed by Serbia and France.
Because of a long history of independence Montenegro was granted statehood by the communist regime to weaken Serbia's influence in the country. Without getting into it, Serbs were the most numerous people in Yugoslavia and this lead to a lot of political instability between world wars.
Cont.
Cont.
>>1228200
The new communist government didn't want Serbs to have so much power so among other things they gave Montenegro statehood, and gave Serbia 2 autonomous provinces to juggle.
Fast forward a bit more.
It's 1989 and up to 1992. Yugoslavia is crumbling. The head of the communist party of Montenegro is Milo Djukanovic. And he is a close associate of Slobodan Milosevic.
Montenegro holds an independence referendum in which 96% of people voted to stay with Serbia.
This is now the Federal republic of Yugoslavia.
This was bad. First of all federations don't work with only two members. It's very hard to allocate political power, to achieve representation and both states have effectively veto power. Montenegro has barely 600k people in a federation with 10 million. And is on equal political footing.
In 2003 the Serbian and Montenegrin government sign an agreement (along with the NATO high representative) to turn the Federal republic of Yugoslavia into the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro.
This is a shitfest. This decision did not go trough either state parliaments, the federal parliament or any form of referendum or public debate. With a clause that the agreement will be revisited in 3 years.
In 2006 Montenegro voted for independence with a very slim majority by 0.5% of votes. It was fishy with Milo still head strong in control, and speculated bought voters, long dead people voting etc.
But Serbia accepted it and here we are now. Montenegro and Montenegrins have a strange identity crysis.
Milo Djukanovic has been in power from 1989, and has changed political ideologies 3 times. He is also an alleged tobacco and arms smuggler, and suspected of embezzlement and corruption.
>>1228090
Serbs are niggers
>>1228072
>I understand Montenegro was part of Serbia, and Serbia was part of Yugoslavia, but the timeline doesn't make sense.
>It's like it went back and forth a few times.
Montenegro and Serbia were both Serb principalities that freed themselves from the Ottomans, with Montenegro being defacto always free since it was a highland province that couldn't be conquered (Bosnia was also about to free themselves but Austro-Hungarians occupied it and gave Turks the freepass to kill the Serbs that rebelled against them, one of the reasons the assasination of the Austrian prince took place).
the Montenegrin Serbs saw themselves as old Serbs since the medieval Serbian state and the medieval holy dynasties (yes holy as in saints, Serbian saints are their medieval kings and rulers) originated there and the Serbian people as a whole mostly descend from there, (up to 90% of the Serbs in the world today have ancestry in the Montenegrin highlands since the middle ages).
They eventually united, however the Serbs in Montenegro wanted their dynasty to be the ruling dynasty of the new Serb kingdom because it had more prestige, while the Serbs in Serbia supported their own dynasty which had more influence and wealth.
The Serbian kingdom with the dynasty from Serbia formed later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, when Croatia and Slovenia joined in.
Montenegro today has a population of 600 000 people, which is very very small. The people in the historical Montenegrin highlands as mentioned earlier consider themselves to be what they were since the middle ages, namely Serbs, however the population in the highlands is sparse. The people in the south and at the litoral zone, where the Venetians built their cities and the Italians occupied it in WW2 are very mixed, because of no clear ancestry they consider themselves 'Montenegrins' as in the name of the state. People in those cities form the majority and thus decide how the countrys politics should be.
Guys, why don't we do this but make it the whole of Europe this time?
>>1228200
>Serbs and Montenegrins are one and the same
Europeans and Africans are "one and the same" by that logic.
>>1228099
Wew have you got it wrong.
>>1228072
It basically boils down to this:
In the 10th century AD the Montenegrin state (called Dioclea) is created, and it is the first country to gain independence from Byzantine Empire in the Balkans. Some time later Bosnia becomes independent, then Serbia. Montenegro (Dioclea) goes on to conquer Bosnia, and Serbia. A 100 years later, they both become independent, and Serbia ends up conquering both Bosnia and Montenegro.
Fast forward 200 years, the Serbs get destroyed by Ottomans in 1389, and out of fear of losing power (to Montenegro or Bosnia), they become their vassals. Of course, this doesn't sit well with Montenegro, who, headed by the Crnojevic dynasty declares independence and keeps fighting the Turks on their own.
Eventually, Ivan Crnojevic dies 1490 and his son, the last ruler of Montenegro (now called Zeta) converts to Islam and surrenders his lands to the sultan in 1500. In return, his son then, called Skenderbeg Crnojevic becomes the sanjakbey of Montenegro, and he rules until his death in 1528. At this point, Montenegro gets joined into the Sanjak of Scutari (part Balsic old Montenegro and part northern Albania), and some 30-50 years later Montenegro refuses to pay the taxes. The Sultan then, unable to collect the taxes, exempts Montenegro from taxes, which makes the Montenegrins revolt even more because they think the Sultan is weak. This leads to full out war by 1600, which practically goes on until 1900, with some minor ceasefires. Of course, it isn't war in the sense of pitched battles, but more raids, from Orthodox Montenegrins against it's Muslim neighbors (who are mostly Montenegrin and Serb converts, and a few Turks). This is why people commonly say "Montenegro was never conquered by the Ottomans".
Montenegro is de-facto ruled by prince-bishop from 1528 on, and in 1692 the Petrovic-Njegos dynasty gets established. Meanwhile the Serbs are an Ottoman province and have no dynasty to speak of.
cont.
>>1230543
The first Serbian dynasty is established by the 1800s, and full Serbian independence only in 1868, while some autonomy was gained in 1817. So you see, the Petrovic-Njegos dynasty has a much greater legitimacy to rule than any Serbian dynasty, and Montenegro has a much greater legitimacy as a state than Serbia.
WW1 comes, and Montenegro, despite being most undermanned to fight Austria, decided to join Serbia in the war, not for practical reasons, but for upholding honor and righteousness, since the Austrian aggression was unjust. Montenegro heroically defeats Austria at the Battle of Mojkovac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mojkovac) and the Serbian army can save their own asses and are later able to liberate Serbia.
Now Montenegro, who is older, more legitimate, and who selflessly sacrificed to help Serbia, now gets betrayed. The Serbs, being the greedy autocrats they always were, march into now undermanned Montenegro with it's King imprisoned in exile, and force the parliament to rule for a union with Serbia - a rigged vote through and through.
So Montenegro is unwillingly included in the "Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Bosnians" until ww2, and then willingly joins Yugoslavia, as a constituent republic. Yugoslavia falls apart in 1991, but Montenegro, due to undying honor sides with Serbia in hard times. By 2006 it's pointless to side with Serbia anymore, and they become independent.
This is the entire history of the Serb-Montenegrin relationship. Nowadays Serb nationalists claim "Montenegro was invented by communists". In a way Montenegrins are part of the greater Serbian people, because they had the same roots in the 6th century AD, but in all other regards they are their own people through and through. Same exact thing as with the Austro-German relationship.
>>1228090
fuck off nato
>>1230624
>So Montenegro is unwillingly included in the "Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Bosnians" until ww2
One more thing to add here is, that the district of Montenegro (Zeta) was artificially enlarged, to include a larger number of Serbs than originally, so all the elected representatives in the district would be pro-Serbian. Same tactic the Serbs did with all the other peoples.
>>1230691
No not really the Petrovic dynasty was hard-core Serbian nationalist and their ancestors were Serbian rulers by blood and tradition (stated by themselves)
The majority population in the Zeta district on your map is Albanian and Slavic Muslim, not Serbian.
- Montenegrin
>>1230624
Why did you help Serbs in the first place if you hate them so much, also why should Montenegro have more legitimacy to rule Serbia if they are not Serbian.
The whole text is really messed up.
According to the Serb autists every Slavic speaker in the Balkans is pretty much Serb.
What a pathetic nation they are.
>>1230721
The whole conflict is blown out of proportion.
Serbians and Montenegrins are the same people, namely Serbs we have same ancestors not just since the 6th century, but since a couple of years, since ever actually, FFS most of Serbian presidents and the hardcore nationalists known in the world are from Montenegro (Milosevic, Karadzic etc. to name few)
The conflict now is between Montenegrin neonationalists wanting their own state that isn't goverened by Belgrade, think Texas in USA that got autonomy, or Bavaria in Germany.
I am a Montenegrin, I live here, I know what I am talking about.
>>1230710
>was hard-core Serbian nationalist
So "hard-core" nationalist that the official state language in the late 19th century was 'Montengrin'. Don't fool yourself, it was never in Montenegro's best interest to give up sovereignty to Serbia. The Serb nationalist rhetoric was to motivate the people to take larger areas of land from the Ottomans (which originally didn't belong to Montenegro proper, like Pec).
>The majority population in the Zeta district on your map is Albanian and Slavic Muslim
fantastic fantasies the then population of Kosovo was only 30% Albanian, 60% Serbian. The population of Herzegovina was Serbian, the population of Sanjak was half-Serbian an no-Montengrins. Even in Montenegro proper there is 30% of Serbians. It was rigged as fuck.
>>1230736
FFS kid I live in Montenegro and am Montenegrin, don't teach me my own history asshole.
>>1230735
>namely Serbs we have same ancestors not just since the 6th century, but since a couple of years, since ever actually
>Milosevic, Karadzic etc. to name few
Lmao. Basically lot of Montenegrins migrated to Serbia during the famine in the mid 19th century. However, it's a small fraction of the actual Serbian population, so it's a retarded argument either way.
>Montenegrin neonationalists wanting their own state
Oh yes. I suppose King Nicholas I was a "neonationalist" too? Why did he spend his life in Italy then? He couldn't return to his home country because he would have been imprisoned by Serbia!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greens_%28Montenegrin_separatists%29
Fucking shameful to support Serbia as a Montenegrin.
>>1230742
I am Montenegrin too, but I know the history of Montenegro, unlike yourself.
My great-grandfathers were in the komite.
>>1230775
>I am Montenegrin too, but I know the history of Montenegro, unlike yourself.
Which clan?
>Fucking shameful to support Serbia as a Montenegrin.
I support my state but it is also natural to support Serbia, and also I am not crazy to not spit on the grave of my grandfather and great grandfathers that were ethnic Serbs as I am.
>>1230721
>also why should Montenegro have more legitimacy to rule Serbia if they are not Serbian
Why should the Serbians have legitimacy to rule Montenegro when they aren't Montenegrins?
Both people have the same roots in the 6th century, that's were all the "legitimacy" comes from. But you see, Montenegro had a greater legitimacy all along. To have great King Nicholas exiled from home country after he had saved their asses, is a betrayal only a Serbian could pull off.
>>1230790
>To have great King Nicholas exiled from home country after he had saved their asses, is a betrayal only a Serbian could pull off.
The fuck you are talking kid, Serbs kill their own kings they are known for that, also they exiled their own dynasty and still hold them semi-exiled after the commies disappeared.
I doubt you are a Montenegrin, you sound like a Bosniak.
>>1230784
>Which clan?
Ceklici.
>my grandfather and great grandfathers that were ethnic Serbs as I am.
Then you are an ethnic Serb, and not a Montenegrin.
>>1230799
>Ceklici
Albanian, ok end of discussion.
>>1230797
>Serbs kill their own kings they are known for that they exiled their own dynasty and still hold them semi-exiled after the commies disappeared.
Many countries nowadays have exiled their royal families, but that's not the same as betraying an ally!
Sophism, ladies and gentlemen.
>>1230804
>Albanian
No, real Montenegrins, always been.
http://www.montenegro.org.au/pleme_ceklici.html
Keep calling everyone you don't like names, sure has worked great for you thus far. I'd rather have a normal Albanian as citizen than a Serbian such as yourself.
It's basically like Austria-Germany relationship.
Commies fucked up things identity-wise though.
Ethnically speaking population of Montenegro is Serb, and differences are purely political between Montenegrins and Serbs (Montenegrins support ruling party, which is continuation of commie party, Serbs don't).
>>1230624
>In a way
Not in a way. We are part of Serbian people. We're literally Serbs.
>and who selflessly sacrificed to help Serbia
Oh wow Serbs helping other Serbs, what a great sacrifice. It's not like 1/2 of male Serbians died in that war.
>Montenegro heroically defeats Austria
Yes and Nikola surrenders. Though I kinda agree he was fucked over, but let's be real, he pretended to rule Yugoslavia too. It was dynastic fight and he lost. The end.
>So Montenegro is unwillingly included
That's a gross lie. Those who were close to former king and who obviously enjoyed privileges (my own family for example) were opposed to it.
Many others supported it. In general, people didn't mind. It's a huge meme now pushed by ''historians'' like Rastoder (a fucking Muslim) and Adžić. It's simply a lie. Fantasy.
>due to undying honor sides with Serbia
More like local commies were appointed by Milošević and they weren't strong enough to shake him off.
>By 2006 it's pointless to side with Serbia anymore
It's pointless to live in the same state as the rest of Serbs?
This is pure fucking idiocy, and I bet my ass you're a fucking Croat or a Muslim or something like that.
History of modern Montenegrin ''identity'' and ''state'' is literally dynastic squabble, then Italian puppet state, then communist politics.
Now it's Western-backed ex-commie ruling like Lukashenko over his personal feud.
Disunity between Montenegro and Serbia only serves fucking foreigners and local Western-funded power-holders. Not people. It's pure idiocy. This ''state'' is gone as soon as Đukanović goes away, one way or the other.
Like half of ''Montenegrins'' are privately Serbs in reality.
>>1230841
slavanized christian albanian
-be proud of your non slavic heritage
-fuck serbs
>>1231177
what do you really think will happen after Đukanović is gone? Curious person who knows very little about Serbia and Montenegro (though my family is from Valjevo originally--grandparents were born there)
Also, you have to understand, Montenegro is 20% Muslim, and Muslims absolutely HATE Serbs.
They don't even like this fucking state, but they just hate it a bit less than Serbia.
Needless to say in referendum for independence they all voted for independence and they even brought people from diaspora who don't even live here to vote.
55% voted for, 45% voted against. Orthodox population is 80% of country. Every Muslim voted for obviously. That literally means Orthodox population (or REAL Montenegrins, not those who are ancestors called ''Turks'') was AGAINST independence. And this is all not counting buying voter ID's (Kosovar crime lord admitted he provided funds openly), intimidating people, and other general fuckery.
Biggest supporters of this country are fucking Muslims. Guy writing a new language is a Muslim. Guy writing new history is a Muslim.
It's clear to everyone sane this state is a fucking sham in every sense. Sadly, due to long communist rule and our mentality in general, many people are not sane.
For shitload of supporters of DPS and this state, line of thinking is ''I better shut up so I don't lose job or they don't beat me up or other shit''. It's literally that.
Some are privately Serbs, some have been brainwashed thoroughly in their ignorance, some literally just sit on the fence not knowing what to choose.
But in general, number of real Montenegrins, people who feel Montenegrin and not Serb, is probably a lot less than 20% not counting Muslims.
As I said, once their idol and boss (Đukanović) dies or gets removed, Montenegro is fucking dead.
>>1231177
>Ethnically speaking population of Montenegro is Serb
>"Ethnically speaking"
"Ethnically speaking" population of Austria is German as you correctly pointed out. Yet nowadays Austrians prefer having their own country.
>Not in a way. We are part of Serbian people. We're literally Serbs.
We are part of the African People too. We're literally Africans. If you go back far enough in time, we all all the same.
>>So Montenegro is unwillingly included
>That's a gross lie.
It isn't. It was literally an overnight decision. The delegates were threatened or bribed. The people loved King Nicholas I, they would have never supported exiling him in favor of a Serb.
>History of modern Montenegrin ''identity'' and ''state'' is literally dynastic squabble, then Italian puppet state, then communist politics
You are not good at reading the thread. Montenegro has had an sovereign state for almost a 1000 years, unlike Serbia.
>It's pointless to live in the same state as the rest of Serbs?
>This is pure fucking idiocy, and I bet my ass you're a fucking Croat or a Muslim or something like that.
The retard train has no brakes on this one.
>Like half of ''Montenegrins'' are privately Serbs in reality.
30% of the population in Montenegro are Serbs - Publicly. Those who are Montenegrins in public, are also Montenegrins in private.
>>1231181
Epic meme. Come here and say it to someone's face. See how you end up.
>>1231207
Union with Serbia probably.
Of course this all depends on what occurs in the world in general.
Reason why Montenegro exists, besides the desire of a former commie to be the king of his own village, is Western interests.
Montenegro denies Serbia sea access, and Serbia is potential Russian ally.
That's why they push hard for us to join NATO now despite the fact support has been pretty weak even in official polls (46% or something like that).
But I don't think that will change anything really.
>>1231181
Albanians didn't even live as far as Skadar originally. They were only settled by Turks there.
Nothing against Albanians, but no sorry, I must dissappoint you.
>20% Muslim, and Muslims absolutely HATE Serbs.
Yet 30% of the population was Serbs, who absolutely LOVE Serbia.
So real Montenegrins voted 35% for independence and 15% against.
Thank you!
>>1231249
Do you get the concept of capturing foreing territories?
>>1231222
>Austrians prefer
Austrians prefer that because they were literally split from Germany after WW2. That is the only reason.
>We are part of the African People too. We're literally Africans. If you go back far enough in time, we all all the same.
That makes literally zero sense. We're ethnically Serbs, as in we were historically Serbs and always had Serb identity.
>The delegates were threatened or bribed.
t. Novak Adžić
>The people loved King Nicholas I
He was loved by people close to him. Like my family, great-great grandfather was a perjanik.
>in favor of a Serb
...
Are you aware Nikola was openly a Serb? Like, he was one of biggest Serb nationalists in that time. Literally no one denies this.
>Montenegro has had an sovereign state for almost a 1000 years
With interruptions, but it was a SERB state. There was no ''Montenegrin'' identity. It was a Serb principality. Later it created Serbian Kingdom, with Raška.
>The retard train has no brakes on this one.
That's irrelevant, I'm just saying. You're obviously someone who hates Serbs.
>30% of the population in Montenegro are Serbs - Publicly. Those who are Montenegrins in public, are also Montenegrins in private.
Except I literally declared as a Montenegrin in census. Yet notice what shit I'm writing. Understand that I live here.
Understand that unlike you I know how people act and what people think.
You're obviously a foreigner and you're lecturing me on what's Montenegro like. Jesus fucking Christ, such an incredible arrogance...
>>1231242
>Union with Serbia probably.
>Montenegro denies Serbia sea access, and Serbia is potential Russian ally.
Lmao. Serbia would do anything to get into the EU. They only pretend to be "Russian ally" so EU feels more pressured to let them join.
Your head is full of anit-Western propaganda my friend. The world is not black and white.
>>1231268
We did take Skadar back
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Scutari_%281912%E2%80%9313%29
>>1231249
>real Montenegrins
There is literally no ethnic or cultural or religious difference between those declaring as Montenegrins and those declaring as Serbs.
If there was no Muslim vote, AGAINST option would win by far.
>Serbs
Montenegrin Serbs. Understand the difference. They aren't settlers or immigrants. Their families lived here since forever.
Montenegro is a fucking Orthodox Christian state. It was ruled by a fucking prince-BISHOP for centuries.
The fact Muslims made it independent gives it as much legitimacy as Pakistanis voting the independence of London from UK.
Again, you're a fucking foreigner, don't talk about things you don't understand with such certainty, because you look like a fucking idiot.
>>1231282
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Albanians_in_the_Balkan_Wars
I know what you did and god also ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_army%27s_retreat_through_Albania
"During the long march, some 240,000 retreating Serbs died from the cold, starvation, disease and at the hands of Albanian tribesmen."
upsi!!!
>>1231282
Ajde, ''we'', prozbori nešto na ''crnogorskom'', da vidim?
Garant ne znaš ni beknut, a izigravaš tu nekog patrijotu a nikad Crne Gore nisi ni vidio...
My point is, if you're some 1/96th ''Montenegrin'' living in America or somewhere, just fuck off friend.
Understand that what you're supporting is detrimental for people here.
>anit-Western propaganda
Yeah I see. You're some American or something like that. Again, fuck off. Thank you.
>>1231275
>That is the only reason.
It doesn't matter what the reason is, what matters is the will of the people.
>>We are part of the African People too.
>That makes literally zero sense.
It makes perfect sense you moron. Less than 100,000 years ago Montenegro and Sub-Saharan Africans were the same.
>Are you aware Nikola was openly a Serb?
He was born in Montenegro, implemented 'Montenegrin' as the official language, implement am own Montenegrin currency. All his ancestors were born in Montenegro for the last 600 years at least. None of this is true for the Karadjordjevic backstabber. What exactly don't you understand?
>but it was a SERB state.
And Austria was a German state. Switzerland too btw.
>You're obviously someone who hates Serbs.
I am someone who loves the sovereignty of his people and hates tyranny.
>You're obviously a foreigner
No, I visit my family each year for a month at least. Meet a lot of people, heard plenty of opinions on this issue. And like I said, 2 of my great-grandfathers emigrated to Italy with the King.
>>1231294
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Albanians_in_the_Balkan_Wars
This is Bullshit. Montenegrins fought together with Christian Albanians in the siege of Skadar, and in almost all wars against the Turks/Muslims. So if you're a Muslim, sorry then, shouldn't have betrayed your religion. We killed Muslim Montenegrins and Muslim Albanians all the same, as did the (real) Christian Albanians.
>>1231322
ethnicity is not difined by religion, when will you slavs learn?
>>1231314
Okay, let's deconstruct this retardation one by one :^)
>I am someone who loves the sovereignty of his people and hates tyranny.
>No, I visit my family each year for a month at least.
>And like I said, 2 of my great-grandfathers emigrated to Italy with the King
So we're not ''your people''. You live in Italy. You're a fucking Italian. You don't pay taxes here. You don't live here. You dumb cretin.
>and hates tyranny
Do you have any idea who Milo Đukanović is and how he rules this piece of shit?
He's literally a FORMER COMMIE who then became SERB NATIONALIST, now he adopted another story, just so he could fucking rule. He's primarily a mafia boss, you dense idiot. He literally ordered killing of people.
He literally sent troops to bomb Dubrovnik and called those who opposed that ''traitors''.
You hate tyranny, yet you support a Balkan Lukashenko. Who, unlike Lukashenko, literally sold his country to foreigners.
>All his ancestors were born in Montenegro
>for the last 600 years
First, mine are, and I still LIVE HERE :^)
Second, Petrovići are from Hercegovina you shithead. They emigrated here.
>implemented 'Montenegrin' as the official language
Who the fuck told you that? Official language was SERBIAN you idiot.
There is no Montenegrin language, there is only a dialect, that's not even spoken in whole of Montenegro.
>what matters is the will of the people
Of what fucking people?
People who were intimidated and brainwashed?
Of Muslims? Do you even know how Muslims appeared here, what they did, and how were the relations between us and Muslims?
Also, I bet you're trying hard to translate ''prozbori'' and ''beknuti'', but GT doesn't work on dialects, sadly :^)
Oh, and OP, if you wondered why you'll often hear people from Balkans say they hate diaspora, it's exactly because of shitheads like this guy.
He literally doesn't live here, doesn't pay taxes here, doesn't even know the language, but he feels cool roleplaying as a ''patriot'' of some place he visits once in 5 years, if that.
And now he's teaching someone who was born here, and who knows the history of this place, who is who and what is what.
And finally, to trigger our diaspora ''patriot'' a bit more, he's a select reading from geography book for schools in Montenegro, from 1899 :^)
>Svi ljudi, koji žive u našoj domovini, jesu Srbi, većinom pravoslavne vjere, a ima ih malo rimokatoličke i muhamedanske.
>All people, who live in our homeland, are SERBS, mostly of Orthodox faith, though some are of Roman Catholic and Mahometian faith
>Svaki Srbin u Crnoj Gori dužan je poznati i ljubiti svoju cjelokupnu domovinu - sve srpske zemlje, u kojima žive naša oslobođena i neoslobođena braća Srbi. Nijedan Srbin i Srpkinja, ma koje vjere bili, ne smiju požaliti ni život za opštu srpsku slobodu, dobro i blagostanje. Treba da je brat mio, koje vjere bio, jer teško bratu bez brata.
>Every SERB in Montenegro must know and love his entire homeland, all SERB lands, on which our liberated and non-liberated SERB brothers live. No SERB, whatever his faith, can avoid sacrifice (risk his life) for common SERB freedom, commonwealth and welfare. Brother should be loved, whatever his faith...
Evo sam ti i preveo na engleski, pošto ne zboriš ''crnogorskijem'', patrioto :^)
>>1231356
In what post exactly did I say I am for Djukanovic?
I despise him, just as any normal person would. Doesn't mean I'm against independence.
>Second, Petrovići are from Hercegovina you shithead.
Yes, in the 14th century (I know cause my mother's from there). That's why I said 600 years, and not 1000.
>>implemented 'Montenegrin' as the official language
>Who the fuck told you that? Official language was SERBIAN you idiot.
You can read it in some official documents from the late 19th century, they're in the museum in Cetnije (inb4 hurr durr forged). It was Montenegrin. Maybe it's retarded because it's virtually the same language, but then again, shows you how much Nicholas valued sovereignty.
>Of what fucking people?
>People who were intimidated and brainwashed?
You can make that argument for anything in Democracy. If you dislike Democracy, sorry then, but that's how things run nowadays.
>how were the relations between us and Muslims?
That doesn't matter anymore. We're not gonna chimp out and start killing ourselves over something that happened 150 years ago. We're all humans, we can work all work together and create a country that is great for all of us. I mean, you can, or even I myself, if I return there someday.
>trying hard to translate ''prozbori'' and ''beknuti''
kek'd
>>1231371
>why people from Balkans say they hate diaspora
Because they are petty and jealous. You don't know how much money diaspora brought into all of ex-Yugoslavia, almost everyone has at least dumped 100,000€ in the shape of houses or flats there.
>>1231385
>Hurr Durr it says Montenegrins are Serbs
I never said they weren't. And Austrians are Germans. But the "Germans" of 1500 years ago are not the same as the Germans of today, and the "Serbs" of 1500 years ago are not the same as the Serbs of today. I know it's hard to understand, but you just gotta accept it.
>pošto ne zboriš ''crnogorskijem''
It is polite to speak English, on an English-speaking forum. You'll learn that some day.
>>1231345
Most didnt or else there wouldnt be any christian albanian in albania now ;)
"Houses and whole villages reduced to ashes, unarmed and innocent populations massacred en masse, incredible acts of violence, pillage and brutality of every kind — such were the means which were employed and are still being employed by the Serbo-Montenegrin soldiery, with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of regions inhabited exclusively by Albanians."
You slavs bitch about muslims and their savagery, but are yourself the most barbaric of them all.
>>1228072
Montenegro, Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia all were tribal Serbocroatian states at one point. Eventually they were subsumed by Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans, until Montenegro and Serbia once again became independent.
After WW1, Yugoslavia was carved out of the ashes of those two entities. Despite surviving WW2, post-monarchial Yugoslavia collapsed due to nationalism (closely tied to religion) due to the power vacuum after Tito's death.
>>1231407
>Most didnt or else there wouldnt be any christian albanian in albania now ;)
All in northern Albania did. Maybe the Christian Albanians were just better fighters?
>unarmed and innocent populations massacred en masse, incredible acts of violence
t. Albanian propaganda
>>1231393
If you're for independence, you're for Đukanović. Those two are same. This independence only served Đukanović and no one else.
If you people weren't so tragically retarded, I would maybe support independence. Luckily, I'm not so retarded, thank God.
>I know cause my mother's from there
Okay, so you know at least something I guess.
>shows you how much Nicholas valued sovereignty
First, museum in Cetinje is no proof, given the shenanigans that occur.
Second, in that time, Crnogorac only meant one thing: Serb living in Montenegro. Like Šumadinac or Ličanin or Krajišnik. Geographical term, not ethnic.
>valued sovereignty
>absolute monarch who owned everything valued sovereignty
Oh wow, incredible. Yet he was literally a Serb and a Serb nationalist on top of that. Also incredible.
>You can make that argument for anything in Democracy.
Nope, because such things occur far more rarely and aren't as systematic as here. Here commie apparatus never died, and now Đukanović is abusing it.
>That doesn't matter anymore.
Not to you, because you don't live here.
>We're all humans
Except Serbs, amirite )))))
I never said they aren't human. But they are Muslim. Islam is a religion, an ideology. They are foreigners. They are not ''Montenegrins'', except ethnically. Once again, you didn't grow up next to them, you don't know how they think or what are they like. Yet you lecture me.
>country that is great for all of us
Again, US, but you DON'T LIVE HERE. You literally can't know what's it like from your few interactions as a foreigner who doesn't even speak the fucking language.
You're supporting things that are fucking our people up, in your roleplaying desire for ''sovereignty'' and other bullshit. You're a massive faggot, basically.
>kek'd
No it doesn't mean that.
>Because they are petty and jealous.
No, because people who don't live here and have no idea how it's like to live here and with superficial knowledge of everything come to lecture us.
>>1231423
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=3&res=9D0CEEDA1E3AE633A25752C3A9649D946396D6CF&oref=slogin
nope. nytimes reporter ;)
>>1231404
>I never said they weren't.
Well thank God, because many of you types are now claiming we were literally never Serbs. Do you understand now how sick and idiotic this nation is?
They, as in paid historians, literally write fantasies about ancient Montenegrins and how we were never Serbs.
>of 1500 years ago
First, it was literally 70 years ago. Montenegrin identity came with communist rule. See Đilas (and see his later writings, when he became Serb again after Tito kicked him out).
Second, most of (Orthodox) people here still feel as Serbs. Of course no one told you, a diaspora, bluntly. But privately most feel as Serbs. It's the state apparatus and propaganda that keeps that in check, as well as passivity and indifference of people here.
But after Milo is gone, that is gone too.
I already told you I declared as Montenegrin in census in 2011 or when it was. Do you think I feel as a Montenegrin now? Yet you're relying on those statistics as if they mean anything.
For example, in state administration, 96% are Montenegrins. Guess why?
>It is polite to speak English
It's also polite to at least speak the language of the person you're giving lecture about what his country and people are like and what should they do.
>>1231423
It's not Albanian propaganda actually.
Same happened after WW2. My grandpa told me story of how entire beach in Ulcinj was full of Albanian bodies, women and children too. Executed by partisans.
Same occurred in Balkan Wars and previously. Shitload of Muslims from north were ethnically cleansed, in fact only thing that stopped it were Western powers.
To be honest I'm sad they didn't finish the job and relocated them to Turkey. We'd be happier and they'd be happier too.
>>1231412
>Serbocroatian
No such thing. Serbs and Croats are different nations/tribes.
Bosnia is historically mostly Croat, with Serbs in east, though this changed in history obviously.
Montenegrins are Serbs (as I established ITT), Macedonians are Bulgarians, Muslims are either Serbs or Croats.
Slovenians are Slovenians.
Oh and diaspora, I actually don't even want us to be absorbed into Serbia, I'd like a broad autonomy, kinda like Vojvodina or something like that :)
But it's absolutely idiotic to be separated and in conflict with other Serbs, especially given our situation in Balkans, and especially given how West wants exactly that. To divide us and then to destroy our culture like they are destroying their own.
Fuck faggots, Muslims, trannies, gender politics, microagressions, and all that other toxic shit.
>>1231459
You slavs have a strage sense of justice. Why should the indigenous inhabitans of the region leave it to make place for more slavs? Look at the map of europe you have enough slavic nations and there is only one albanian nation.
>>1231427
>No it doesn't mean that.
the meaning of 'kek'd' is: 'I laughed at your comment', if you're new to 4chan. Of course I know what prozbori means, and I do speak my native language quite well.
>>1231452
>>of 1500 years ago
>First, it was literally 70 years ago.
What I mean is they separated from the Serbs in Serbia 1500 years ago. In the 19th century rise of nationalism, all ethnicities tended to be summed as much as possible (you should know that if you post on /his/). National identity didn't exist before that, people identified regionally and based on religion.
>>1231459
>Bosnia is historically mostly Croat
It's not. Kotromanici were Serbs.
It's basically:
Slovenes: Slovenes
Croats: Croats
Serbs: Serbs, Bosnians, Montenegrins
Bulgarians: Macedonians
Of course there is all sorts of mixing everywhere, but that's mainly that.
>>1231478
I meant Muslims not Christian Albos. I have nothing against Christian Albanians, on the contrary. I value some of them here more than Serbs and Montenegrins actually.
>>1231487
by that logic all christians should be expelled back to Israel? neither Christianity nor Islam is european.
>>1231478
>>1231487
>indigenous inhabitans
Those are the indigenous inhabitants of Europe, settled 20,000 years ago.
The Albanian haplogroup e1b1b settled only 7,000 years ago.
>>1231483
>Kotromanići were Serbs
Nope. Of course in that time that mattered far far less but they were Croatian noble family that got independence later. Kinda like Montenegro case.
Anyway, you at least accept that we are Serbs and that's enough. I wouldn't mind independence if this state wasn't literally a Western tool for fucking up Serbs.
>>1231493
Nope. Christianity is the foundation of European culture.
Slavs in Balkans (and Albanians) accepted Christianity on their own, we weren't forced.
Your people were literally forced into Islam, just like many Balkan Slavs.
Turks are gone, that toxic Arab foreign ideology should be gone too. As long as they are here, they are a threat. They naturally orient themselves towards Turkey. Their culture is foreign and product of compulsion.
Anyway I'm off to sleep, this discussion turned nice in the end :^)
>>1231496
>>Kotromanići were Serbs
>Nope.
Well, I can't find anything on the origin of Kotromanici. But Kosaca were Serbs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosa%C4%8Da_noble_family
Either way, I don't have any agenda or anything.
>>1231494
We were talking about montenegro and the balkan not the russian steppes. I dont really care what slavs do in Ukraine and other places where they where indigenous.
>>1231511
European history and our culture didnt start in 391...
>>1231549
I2a is not Slavic. It's the oldest European Haplotype.
Yugoslavians = Illyrians
Albanians, for the most part, are not Illyrians, because they lack I2a.
>>1231571
>>1231571
"Following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476, the Slavs moved in the Dinaric Alps and the Balkans. By the 9th century the Slavs occupied all modern Slavic-speaking territories, apart from the eastern Balkans under the control of the Turkic-speaking Bulgars."
Bullshit same source as your picture.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
You are not indigenous to the balkan.
>>1231594
Are you retarded?
>Haplogroup I-M438, also known as I2 and previously I2b, is a human DNA Y-chromosome haplogroup, a subclade of Haplogroup I-M170. Haplogroup I-M438 originated some time around 13,000–15,000 BCE and has three main subclades: I-M438*, I-L460, and I-L1251.
>Haplogroup I2a may be the haplogroup pertaining to the first anatomically modern humans to inhabit Europe, Cro-Magnon. A recent 2015 study has found Y DNA haplogroup I2a in a 13,000 year old, purportedly Cro-Magnon fossil from Bichon Switzerland, belonging to the Azilian culture.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438
>>1231614
You dont understand, that mutations of certain halopgroups happened in set times. South-slaves are not i2 they are I2a2 which is much younger then EV-13 hat belong to Albanians specially Kosovars.
>>1231614
>>1231839
For example if I2a2 was part of the populace of the roman empire, you would find some remains on old roman colonies, but you dont.
EV-13 instead is found everywhere, where the Roman empire has set foot.
"The ancient Greeks contributed to the rediffusion of more E-V13 around places such as Cyprus, Sicily, southern Italy, Liguria, Provence, eastern Spain, and basically all part of the Classical ancient Greek world. Alexander's conquest of the Middle East would have taken E-V13 much further afield, perhaps as far as Afghanistan and Pakistan, although only at trace frequencies. The Greeks remained in control of the Middle East until the Roman conquest, then regained influence over the region during the Byzantine period. It is likely that most E-V13 in the Middle East is ultimately of Greek origin.
The Etruscans, who may have come from western Anatolia, could have brought E-M34 and more E-V13 to central Italy, which would then have been assimilated by the Romans. Migrations within the Roman Empire probably played a role, although a minor one, in the redistribution of E1b1b in Europe. The biggest genetic impact of the Romans/Italians outside of Italy appears to have been in Gaul (modern France, Belgium, southern Germany and Switzerland), probably because this was the closest region to Italy using the well-developed Roman road network (actually inherited from the Gauls themselves)."
There was no spreading of I2a2 during the Illyrian, Roman or Greek Empire. But you can clearly see that EV-13 is found everywhere in Europe and the Mediterranean.
>>1231839
>>1231878
You are fucking moron.
First of all, all sub-clads of I2 are indigenous to Yugoslavia, I2a is just the majority sub-clad (pic related, of all I2). It doesn't matter how much it has branched out, the ancestral I2 was in the Balkans, 15,000 BC, and I2a is its descendant.
E-V13 (Albanian DNA) arrived here only 6000 BC.
>>1231878
>For example if I2a2 was part of the populace of the roman empire, you would find some remains on old roman colonies, but you dont.
But you do you gigantic moron! It's 1-5% across the whole of the Roman Empire: >>1231494
>EV-13 instead is found everywhere, where the Roman empire has set foot.
Oh, wow, really? Jesus fuck you're retarded.
Here's another map, of whole of I2.
>>1231571
>>1231583
TL;DR: Albanians are not Illyrians. That's just how it is.
>>1232236
To
>>1232236
bad
>>1233303
no one agrees with your theory that your ancestors where there. Where is I2a2 in Italy and rest of the the Roman Empire.
And again simple I2 is not slavic like R1B isnt albanian.
>>1233329
Albanians were in the Balkans, but they are not Illyrains. That's what he fails to understand. But then again, it's an Albanian pea-brain, really wasting your time explaining anything to him.
>>1233331
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi
"Albanoi (Ancient Greek: Ἀλβανοί; Albanian: Albanët) or Albani were an Illyrian tribe whose first historical account appears in a work of Ptolemy in addition to a town called Albanopolis (Ἀλβανόπολις) located east of the Ionian sea, in modern-day Albania.[1] Ptolemy's mention in 150 AD places them in the Roman province of Macedon, specifically in Epirus Nova, almost 300 years after the Roman conquest of the region."
Albanopolis like Polis of the Albanians
>>1233359
If we're gonna play name games:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania
>>1233364
right next to iberia :D
