tfw most trinitarians are really binitarians
>>1225982
That's wrong you fucking idiot.
>Holy Spirit doesn't exist
Why are you arguing something you had no faith in?
Again, Wholes which are Wholes combine to make a Whole.
God is Triune.
That's literally it.
I don't see what's so hard to grasp.
>>1226001
It's OP's lack of faith that makes him blind to it.
>>1225991
I believe in The Spirit, but I believe it is subordinate to the father. I'm also debating whether it can be considered a unique "person" in the Godhead
>>1226001
Allah is one....be careful friend, your committing shirk, Allah sent his messenger please look into it and listen
>>1226105
It's not about subordination, it's about process.
The father is the old way, the son is the new way, the holy spirit is the means by which sons become fathers, fathers wither, and sons, having become fathers, make New Sons.
It is about the tradition. Life is the means by which children become parents, i.e. The Holy Spirit is the means by which Sons become Fathers.
>>1226133
Interesting...
>>1226107
The demon whom you call "Allah" is not Allah, i.e. God whom arab Christians call Allah.
>>1226133
>father dies and jesus becomes the new father
>>1225982
>A is equal to B is equal to C
>A is not equal C
> dat fucking pic
Holy fuck this medieval logic. Why not just say that god has three different "manifestations" or characteristics. Holy fuck nevermind, nearly 2000 of fucking fallacies its impossible to argue against
>>1226317
Are you a cuck that supports atheism?
>>1226333
> 1/10 made me answer
Never said that. If you were a literally more atentive would have read that i critiziced the A = B = C yet A =\=C meme and that kind of fucking religious logicisms and memeisms that are man created and give us away from the truth
>>1226362
I don't gotta give you shit.
>>1226317
The whole point of the trinity is that it is supernatural, so therefore not logical at all, and not able to be understood at all. It comes from scripture and tradition, not logic, so it's a take it or leave it deal.
It's like believing in God. All interesting arguments aside, at the end if the day you have to take a leap of faith to believe it or not.
>>1226317
God is Triune.
What don't you understand?
>>1226407
>leap of faith
>>1226422
Yeah, it's called having faith, which is something you don't have.
>>1226422
What's the problem?
>>1226418
I would take it like that, not like the a = b= c meme
>>1226429
I have faith and it is supported by mountains of evidence. What about you?
>>1226560
right
>>1226560
I have faith. Simple. As. That.
>>1226586
Your faith is weak, mine isn't.
>>1226597
believe me, both are equally weak
>>1226597
My faith is strong.
>>1226317
Because years of neo-platonic influence insisted that the ultimate God must have only one trait/part/characteristic. But than people were also worried that they were polytheists if the his and son were different. Also just try and wrap your head around the idea that God is completely immaterial but Jesus's physical, material body is identified as God unless you are a heretical Nestorian.
>>1226610
It isn't since you claim to "just have faith", you're the one who took a leap, not me.
>>1226624
And guess what, that leap of faith worked bitch.
>>1225982
>Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
>mfw
>>1226629
It's weak.
>>1226661
Define "weak faith"
>>1226680
I'm talking about your leap of faith.
>>1226688
That doesn't define shit.
>>1226697
Your faith is weak.
>>1226317
it says "is" not "is equal to"
water is wet
gasoline is wet
blood is wet
water isn't gasoline or blood
>>1226728
That's wrong, it isn't three aspects dude.
>>1226317
A volkswagen is a car
A toyota is a car
An aston martin is a car
Doesnt mean a volkswagen is a toyota
>>1225991
The holy spirit is wholly a faggot.
A human being can be a husband, a son, and a father all at once and still be that one human being, just taking on different roles in different scenarios. Another example is water, it being able to take the form of steam, ice, or liquid water, but it sill remains water.
In my personal life I see the Trinity as an attempt to put into words the infinite mystery and endless abilities of God to act and move in various levels of creation through various means, which really can't be properly put into words.
>>1225982
Guys,
The Trinity makes perfect sense. What is ice? It is water in a solid state. What is steam? Water in gas form. What is water... just liquid water.
Despite their different states, does that make any of them less water than water itself?
Anyone that can explain the Trinity while using "logic" is a heretic.
>>1226817
>>1226827
Hivemind
>>1226107
There is one divine substance, three divine persons. A clover has three leaves, but is still one plant.
>>1226844
>3 parts
No.
>>1226827
>What is ice? It is water in a solid state.
Son
>What is steam? Water in gas form.
Holy Spirit
>What is water... just liquid water.
Father
>>1226827
The water anogy is explicitly heretical.
>>1226827
So basically:
Father [-material, -knowable]
Spirit [-material, +knowable]
Son [+material, +knowable]
Then the idea of the Spirit mediating between the Son and the Father makes sense.
But then, my question is, couldn't there be an aspect which is [+material, -knowable]? Namely everything else in the world. Which makes sense out of >>1226659 as Jesus would be a mediator as the Spirit is, i.e. the way for the material aspect of the divine to know its true essence.
Which reminds me of part of this lecture:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLp7vWB0TeY&t=5m12s
Where it is mentioned that the finite is necessary to the infinite as there is no being without limit.
>>1227269
"I am the Truth" - Al-Hallaj
>>1226884
Can a water molecule be in all three states simultaneously?
>>1227329
A water molecule outside of time and progression can.
>>1227336
how do we know something can be outside of time?
>>1227345
It can't, not in the sense we usually apply to being. It's both in a state of non-being and being in one moment.
>>1227354
I don't like the idea of worshipping Schroeder's cat
>>1227359
Nobody said it was going to be easy.
>>1226807
Please take that back, anon. That's very serious blasphemy. I'm not joking here, please take it back.
>>1227424
Insulting the Holy Spirit is not what Jesus was talking about anon.
>>1226844
>partialism
It seems to me that the trinity can't be explained with a simple sentence or diagram, it has to do with the medieval understanding of Christian metaphysics and the distinction between substance and essence and what drives the three aspects of the trinity while allowing them to keep their particularity at the same time.
https://youtu.be/vXJIbvsb00s
https://youtu.be/CfP7DNG_ZbM
https://youtu.be/WrlR1aFODDI
https://youtu.be/Nduka-QqXbQ
https://youtu.be/IlzM7LogGRU
https://youtu.be/8o4j5xrlJLM
https://youtu.be/tFfNFJOppsM
>>1225982
it gets worst when you try to argue that god is a simple being with divine simplicity
>>1227445
Doesn't seem like anyone can agree on exactly what the fuck he was talking about there.
>>1227269
>Where it is mentioned that the finite is necessary to the infinite as there is no being without limit.
The school of voidness
Yin and Yang
light and dark
It seems to be a recurring theme throughout history.
>>1227466
>"Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept His mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
CCC 1864
>>1225982
The Trinity is one of the biggest fail in the history of religions.
If God is one, then you and your God's connection is unlimited.
No dogma or church could interfere.
God is omipotent, omnipresent, etc.
You are limited, but you can pray to God, try to "reach" Him.
The dogma of the Trinity is just as useless and harmful as any dogmas, ever - it's there to make a church or any mortal institue necessary.
There shouldn't be anything between you and God.
If God is real / true, loving and caring, then the church and any kind of dogma are unnecessary and harmful.
>>1227746
>If God is real, then communing with him or recieving any kind of truth from him is unnecessary and harmful
>>1227769
What I'm saying is:
>If God is real, then communing with him (PERSONALLY!) or recieving any kind of truth from him (PERSONALLY!) is the only good way
>>1227329
A single molecule is not in a state.
>>1227746
>>1227769
>>1227811
Also: I argued that henosis (from a Platonist perspective), gnosis and theosis are far more important than dogmas like the Trinity.
I believe the Trinity is an unnecessary component, that's all.
If you want a debate, I'll be around.
>>1226317
Cause that would be the heresy of modalism, senpai.
As well the dogma of the trinity was created long before the medieval times in late antiquity.
>>1226728
>>1226784
Your analogies are shit, cause they would apply to Polytheism as well:
- Jupiter is a god.
- Venus is a god.
- Merkur is a god.
They aren't each other.
Better analogy would be your body.
You have a brain (father) that is part of your body, a heart (son) and arms (spirit). They all are one body, but they aren't each other.
>>1227746
>it's there to make a church or any mortal institue necessary.
How? The trinity in itself doesn't necessitate that.
>If God is real / true, loving and caring, then the church and any kind of dogma are unnecessary and harmful.
>"If your father is really loving, he shouldn't kick you out of the house if you murder prostitutes and stuff them in his fridge, or ask you to come to family gatherings"
As well that has nothing to do with the dogma of trinity.
>>1227811
It's the best way, but if you're sorely afflicted by sin, your spirituality is impaired. Christianity is about cleansing that affliction, and monks work particularly hard at it so as to listen directly to God.
>>1227329
>assuming God is a three dimensional being that doesn't transcend time and space
>>1227811
Right, but, if God is real, he has given us three forms of personal relationship with him. He sent his son down as flesh to make his word tangible and taught us how to pray and talk to him, he gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit to ensure a constant connection with those who have accepted it and the father has adopted those who believe into his personal family
>>1226784
The problem is that a Volkswagen is one member of a greater category. A Volkswagen is a car but notice the indefinite article there. When Christians speak of Jesus for instance they imply or even explicitly say that he is literally God proper or whole, not a member of a category.
>>1227860
Hmm, I see. Interesting.
Thank you for the feedback!
>>1227926
>When Christians speak of Jesus for instance they imply or even explicitly say that he is literally God proper or whole, not a member of a category.
Are Abigail und Brittany Hensel one or two persons? Can one be without the other?
>>1227926
what if god and jesus are identical twins?
Manifestation is Triune.
When God manifested, the world was manifest with him.
Visualize blank space, then a red dot, then another and one more.
thre dots create a form, a triangle, first manifestation was trinity.
>>1227746
>If God is one, then you and your God's connection is unlimited.
>No dogma or church could interfere.
What if God realizes that people don't want to connect with Him and decides to institute a physical Church so as to Shepard more people back into communion with Him?
>>1227853
>You have a brain (father) that is part of your body, a heart (son) and arms (spirit).
Fairly certain that is heretical as it implies that they are separate portions of one overall thing. Which is false.
Has anyone ever been able to prove the trinity is logically consistent?
Why is there 3 persons instead of 1 or an infinite amount of persons?
>>1229198
Because it said so in the bible.
>>1227329
A single molecule? No.
You can hit the triple point though and watch water cycle through the states second after second. It's pretty cool.
>>1226133
The fuck is this shit?
>>1226107
Yes, the devil is one. We get it.
>>1227746
There is nothing between me and my triune God.
>>1227497
>I'll die for all your sins
>Except this one because it's a separate part of the Trinity lol
Okay
Fuck the Holy Spirit right it its ethereal anus
>>1227844
Do you understand at any level that your perception of God does not manifest itself in reality?
That if you truly believed God to be a purple elephant, your belief would not change God into a purple elephant?
>>1227860
This really sounds like cult logic.
>>1225982
Arius did NOTHING wrong, fuck the trinity.
>>1229213
Point it out.
>>1226001
Why? Why isn't he 2 entities? Or 4? Or infinite entities? Or none?
>>1226784
Oh, so you're a polytheist?
>>1227843
Yeah but people who argue about gods and spirits on a Mongolian long boarding social network don't know that
>>1229198
Yes, of course. You define God in the bible, you see the attributes of God in the bible, you see the workings of God in the bible, and you attribute all of those things to each member of the Trinity, Who is One God.
God has more dimensions than we do.
You're basically a Flatlander trying to describe a cube as a line.
>>1229613
God is Who He is, and as He is. Why not just accept reality for what it is? Why not play the hand you were dealt?
>>1229613
Because 3 is the best.
>>1229643
You and the other Anon just made you a liar, no?
>>1225982
I would actually argue that most trinitarians are polytheists; especially the ones who think Mary is the Mother of God.
>>1229702
>being wrong
>being so fucking wrong
God isn't a fucking part.
>Mary
>gave birth to Jesus (God)
>isn't the mother of God
>totally shouldn't you know, respect her
>>1229708
Spotted the polytheist.
>>1229713
>being a blithering retard that doesn't get the whole you know, wholes for which they are wholes combine to be a whole
>>1229708
Pagan.
>>1229741
>being a proddy that spits on both the east and the west
>>1229744
Protestants too, are polytheists.
>>1229750
>said the faggot LARPer who shits on Europe
>>1229702
>I would actually argue
Go ahead then, buddy
>>1229750
>Jimmy stole a cookie too!
Um, no, Jimmy did not.
>>1229787
Well Jimmy is a disrespectful cunt if he doesn't have respect for Mary.
>>1229770
My argument was embodied right here. >>1229708
When Jesus said He is the Son of God, the Pharisees picked up rocks to kill Him for claiming to be God.
By claiming to be the Son of God, Jesus was saying He is God.
God can only beget God.
By the papists saying Mary is the Mother of God, they are saying that Mary is God.
Son of God = God.
Mother of God = God.
They're polytheists worshiping many gods.
>>1229792
I wouldn't call deifying Mary "respectful", nor would I call equating her with Semiramis, the Queen of Heaven, respectful.
>>1229793
>Called in the Gospels "the mother of Jesus", Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as "the mother of my Lord".144 In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos).145
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p2.htm
Are you your mother?
>>1229810
What you are doing is heretical, not me. You are uttering abominations and blasphemies, not me. You will pay for your error, not me.
>>1229793
>God can only beget God.
Christ is fully god, and fully man. If Mary was god, he would not be fully man.
>>1229830
So, still no "Mother of God" in the bible.
And nowhere does Jesus call Mary "Mother".
And no mention of Mary being sinless.
And no mention of Mary not dying.
And no mention of Mary being "Co-Mediatrix" between us and God.
And no mention of Mary remaining the eternal virgin.
And no mention of any of the other blasphemies and abominations of the Roman Catholic church.
Nor did even they believe any of this nonsense until 1854.
>>1229832
I'm not the blithering idiot that believes in bullshit like Babylon existing now
>>1229833
So if Mary is not God, then Mary cannot be the Mother of God, because to mother God, one must be God.
Polytheists.
>>1229836
Rome is Babylon. So says Peter.
You don't believe Peter now?
>>1229844
Peter died in Rome and marks the fucking point of where the Church should be built. If that means inside of the carcass of a dead civilization then dammit that is the foundation.
>>1229850
Peter's bones are in Jerusalem, and have been for over 1900 years.
Now what?
>>1229850
Pagan Rome then
Pagan Rome now
>>1229874
>questioning my reasoning
Heretic.
>>1229871
This book called the bible.
I see no reason not to burn witches, unless you prefer that such criminals be hung by the neck until dead.
Do you reward witches where you are with cookies?
>>1226317
t. mathematician
>>1229882
>hanging witches
>doesn't believe in trying to remove the demon out of her by committing an exorcism
>>1226001
>One god
>Three parts/persons/existences (depending on who you ask)
>Yahweh, Jesus, and Paraclete are all equal to god
>But despite being all equal to the same thing, Yahweh, Jesus, and the Paraclete are not all equal to each other (unless one tries to argue they're all equal to each other in being equal to the same thing, which is the previous statement but now you've made it obvious you're playing games)
>Somehow violating Euclidean Law is supposed to show the glory of how great god is
How is it supposed to be simple to grasp? Trinitarians are uncompromising in their belief of no more than one god, but no less than him (the one god always preferring to be referred to as male, to the point where calling him a woman is an insult) inhabiting three existences. Each of these existences isn't merely a 1/3rd portion of god, but fully god in every single way, just like the other two existences; all being fully god by themselves, but together still make one god.
Saying you fully understand the trinity is a clear sign you're full of shit. Even Thomas Aquinas was wise enough to determine that the trinity makes no logical sense whatsoever, you just gotta trust the big Jewish guy's word on it.
>>1229938
>Parts
God isn't a part. Saying that is fucking asinine.
>>1229947
I wasn't arguing he was, friend.
>>1229897
Who said witches were possessed by demons?
>>1230025
Are you implying they aren't?
>>1229938
Maybe you're right. Maybe it's beyond human comprehension.
Father is God.
Son is God.
Spirit is God.
Son and the Father are One.
Son and Father are bound by Spirit as One.
There is One God.
But maybe it's just a matter of perspective. From God's perspective, He's quite clear that He is One God, no matter how He manifested Himself to us so that we might get to know Him a little better.
>>1230027
Of course.
Women cannot murder children? Women cannot poison wells? Women cannot blight crops? Women cannot enter into pacts with the devil without being possessed by a demon?
>>1229289
No you fool. Dying for all Our Sins merely allowed mankind to actually enter heaven and the presence of God. The door is opened, but we ourselves still choose to go through it and close it shut and turn around.
>>1229882
>This book called the bible.
[citation needed]
>>1230032
>Of course
Then I might say you aren't Christian
>>1229835
>So, still no "Mother of God" in the bible.
Jesus was born of Mary. Jesus is both fully divine and fully man. Mary is the Mother of Jesus. Ergo, Mary is the Mother of God.
>>1229835
>Nor did even they believe any of this nonsense until 1854.
*Officially
These beliefs were widespread throughout the Christian world long before 1854. Luther himself FIRMLY believed in the Perpetual Virginity of the virgin Mother. Indeed if Luther were to look upon the stupidity that is Biblical literalism today, he would have never broken from the Mother Church.
>>1231008
Nonsense anon, don't say shit about Luther, he'll just say he's a "Catholic Friar"
>>1231029
That's wrong.
The point is, if you can draw a comparison to it, it's wrong.
>>1226107
The whole Binitarian stuff to my knowledge came from Larry Hurtado or perhaps he is one of the biggest proponents of the view that the Early Christians are Binitarian.
That said, a sort of a 'theology of the Holy Spirit" emerged in the Early fathers like Irenaeus and in some sense Justin Martyr to make a trinity emergent.
Briggman's "Irenaeus of Lyons and the Theology of the Holy Spirit" would be a recommended read to understand the deity of the Holy Spirit in Irenaeus and see some of its predecessors.
Also free on bookos :3
>>1229793
Are you a nestorian by any chance?
>>1231057
most protties are nestorian, it seems prots just adopt heresies at random to annoy catholics
>>1231077
>Implying Nestorianism isn't the TRUE OFFICIAL™ THEOLOGY that Christ handed down to us and was corrupted by those dirty evil papists.
>>1231105
Fuck off you Vanilla Manlet.
>>1231111
Anon was clearly joking, m8
>>1227329
if you hit the critical point the water can exist in all three states at once, but it isn't a single molecule
>>1231167
I don't see any jokes here.
>>1229275
My interpretation
If you think the Trinity is hard to understand, try to reconcile the Thomistic definition of God as the simplest substance only analogically referred to as a person, with the Incarnation.
With some basic understanding of metaphysics, the Trinity really isn't weird as everyone thinks it is.
Simply, God has a single, absolutely simple and non-composite divine essence. Father, Son and Ghost are relations within the essence. Since medieval Aristotelian theology doesn't see relations as substances with their own essences, this allows the Godhead to be comprehended as a relational entity. This all ties into John and the idea of God as Love - God is literally love, since the three relations share constant love themselves.
It would be a defect for the Godhead to be imagined as a static, lonely person, and as mentioned above, he isn't a person in any way humans conceive of personhood, but rather the act of Being itself. Emphasis is on the "act", which is again an aspect of Aristotelian philosophy.
>>1230961
50,000,000 abortions since Roe v Wade
Anon thinks all of those women are demon possessed witches?
>>1230967
Hmmm, your twisted logic is indeed uniquely human.
And yet, no "Mother of God" in the bible. No sinless "Mother of God", no undying "Mother of God", no ascending "Mother of God", and no "Queen of Heaven" but for the worship of Semiramis of Babylon.
How does it feel knowing that you joined a 4000 year old worship of Nimrod's wife?
>>1231008
1854.
Until then, no papist thought Mary was special. Just a Jewish kid with a dream. Very, very, very Jewish.
>>1231760
How about keeping it to yourself?
>>1234410
Quit being retarded, the Madonna has held a special place among Catholics for a long time
>>1234397
This is a constructive post, whereas earlier posts are just the mean spirited attempts of some autist to discourage people from understanding the trinity by replying to every explanation with a different obscure heresy
>>1234585
If by "Madonna" you mean "Semiramis of Babylon, wife of Nimrod, and Queen of Heaven", then yes, yes they have. For 4000 years.
>>1235241
I've never seen it as complicated.
Father is God
Son is God
Spirit is God
There is one triune God.
>>1234410
>Until then, no papist thought Mary was special.
How do people as stupid as you function?
>>1235272
1854
So your counterpart in 1853 didn't believe what you believe.
>>1227269
God is not directly knowable to anyone - no human or angel ever seen God.
In heaven you see manifestation of God in great glory.
On earth you've seen the "avatar" the icon of God.
All saints and prophets seen various manifestations of God energy as much as they could supported.
God is infinite no being can perceive God.
But God can perceive you and communicate and interact with you.
>>1235321
Kill yourself you historically illiterate buffoon
>>1235409
Papist, 1853. Mary? Yeah, she's okay.
You: MOTHER MARY PLEASE SAVE MY SOUL
>>1235406
This is not true.
Matthew 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
>>1235413
>>>/tumblr/
>>1225982
The trinity is a polytheist concept and xtianity is a polytheist religion that pretends to be monotheist.
>>1235449
Son is infinite like his Father because all Three are existing in eternity.
Trinity is God - Son was nor created at some point and benefited gradual development towards Godhood - Jesus existed in eternity as full God together with Holy Spirit and Father.
Only angels, humans and the rest of creation have a beginning and limited being.
>>1229938
I'm pretty sure its supposed to be incomprehensible to humans, maybe bends the rules of logic because he's God
>>1234410
>1854.
Then why is it that so much of Renaissance religious art is of Mary
>>1234406
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTVyptxPQ04 [Embed]
Why do you pray through saints? This makes no sense if God is omnipotent/present. Isn't this just polytheism like the trinity?
>>1235994
Do you ever pray with others for the same thing?
>Isn't this just polytheism like the trinity?
ebin
>>1234410
True Devotion to Mary, by Saint Louis de Montfort , published 1712.
>>1235933
How can God expect people to love/worship him if he makes his messages to humans confusing?
>>1236002
>Praying with living humans
>Praying to idols of dead followers of Christ
How are these similar?
>>1236027
>dead
And this is the promise which he hath promised us, life everlasting.
1 John 2:25
>idols
ebin
Honestly Catholicism should just stop half-assing it and cut out Jesus/God entirely. Worshiping Mary directly seems like it would be great in Latin America and convert waifufags in droves.
>>1236065
>>1236065
It's been there since the beginning. Just look at "Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion"
>>1235994
Praying through the saints is basically like asking a family member to pray for you. This derives from the idea that the church, as an association of believers united in Christ, maintains these connections even between members living and dead.
I think that many people pray through he saints in a way that is probably closer to praying "to" them, however, as though they had power of themselves. That is clearly polytheistic, but seems grounded in ignorance of a simple semantic difference rather than malice. I suspect that this feature of Christianity made it more palpable for pagans to adopt, however.
Holy trinity can make sense when you consider time and time travel shenanigans.
If your future self and your future selfs future self travels to your time such that you and your future selves are all acting at the same time, it can easily be reasoned that they are all you but they are all independent of you.
Now combine that with an all powerful deity that can't be fucked with so paradoxes like "but what if I kill the present you?" literally can't happen.
The Son was God in the present
The Father is God at the end of Time ( this is where he gets his omniscience from, because he's from the farthest possible future so he knows what is going to happen )
The holy spirit is from the farthest past, the initiator of everything. He couldn't be a father or a son when life didn't even exist yet.
>>1225982
Your pic literally means there are three gods.
