This is the map of Europe described by Pomponius Mela in 44 AD. Norwegian arctic explorer Frithjof Nansen drawed this back in 1911.
What catches the eye is that he describes a great bay ("Codanus sinus") of pre-eminent size; this name reappears in Pliny the Elder's work as Scatinavia.
Codanovia and Scatinavia were both Latin renderings of the Proto-Germanic *Skaðinawio
Far more interesting is the fact that the noble Belgae are mentioned here twice.
Once below the Rhine, same place where they are today.
Once next to, to the right of, the Vistula, which pretty much means that the whole Baltic region is in fact legitimate Belgian clay.
I know Belgae (namely the Menapii) were a sea-faring tribe who colonised parts of eastern Ireland (Fermanagh, Monaghia, Menapia now called Wexford), Isle of Man (Monapia), the island Anglesey (Mona) and the Welsh coastal region.
The Menapian haplogroup subtype is known and has been found in Sweden, but of course that could also be from slavery, there not the only Celts found up there.
But Belgae who have settled in the Baltic region, possibly having to do with the amber trade there, this puts it in a new light.
>>1209062
Interesting. But should be backed by archeology and genetics. Two completely unrelated peoples having the same name in ancient sources, even witgin the same source, is nothing new.
>>1209101
Possibly, but then there should be a reason why they were confused. My experience is that both Greeks and Romans were fairly accurate in their descriptions of foreign tribes, especially the ones further away, with the limitations they had.
>>1209109
Using the same name doesn't mean they're being confused. They never confused both iberias. Does your source explicitly claim both Belgae are the same?
>>1209062
I was surprised to hear the Belgae had some outposts in England before Caesar even set foot here.
I recently got this book and while it's not really academic grade it's quite good.
>>1209113
No, and Belgae are already a confederation of tribes who shared blood relation, language and religious traits.
Only a few Belgae tribes were known sea-farers, especially the one I mentioned, the Menapii.
The haplogrous subclade associated with the Menapii, R1b-L21-Z16340 (L21+ > DF13+ > DF1/L513+ > S5668+ > Z16340), both limited to Belgium and Ireland, has also been found in Sweden, that is a pointer, but not enough to conclude anything from.
Ther description was from 44 AD, a century later Tacitus would decribe the Balts as having a language sounding more similar to Gaulish than Germanic. But why would Pomponius Mela use the word Belgae then?
Also, there were still Celts in the general area in those days, more to the south, think about the Boii for example.
![515V7PCDDBL._SX343_BO1,204,203,200_[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/eIeXtsj.jpg "515V7PCDDBL._SX343_BO1,204,203,200_[1].jpg")
>>1209133
Yes the Atrebates, one of the Belgae tribes, had land in the south of England and close to Cornwall I believe.
The Belgae also stood at the cradle of Ireland, they were the founding tribe from its mythology, called Fîr-Bolg
Another good book is:
http://www.amazon.com/Menapia-Quest-Thousand-Seafaring-Scotland/dp/0952541408
Also not academic grade, but well researched to academic standards. Ignore the amazon price though, I've bought it from the author directly for 30 euros incl. s/h
Here is a reconstruction of Pomponius Mela's world map by Konrad Miller (1898)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Karte_Pomponius_Mela.jpg
(too big to upload here)
Look right across the island Thule, again at the Vistula end: the Belgae
>>1209166
This map clearly designates BELGAE in that area along the coast line.
Neighbouring tribes mentioned are none known as Belgae:
Arimaspi
Agathyrsi
Scythae interius habitantes
Geloni
Anthropophagi "man-eaters" : this corresponds to descriptions by Greek authors of man-eating Finnic tribes in the area
>>1209062
That looks like it says "belcae" not "belgae"
>>1209192
This
>>1209192
>>1209166
True, it's "BELCAE" and not belgae
>>1209184
>>1209062
It seems to me like you're putting too much faith in the map's accuracy, maps back then weren't made as they are now, there was a lot of hearsay involved in ethno-geography in ancient times.
Plus, the map puts this Belcae tribe at the shores of the arctic ocean and at the same latitude of the Caspian Sea, both at the same time. You can't use sources like this to draw any type of accurate conclusions.
>>1209062
Are you visually impaired?
It is clear that one is "BELGAE", and the other is "BELCAE".
>>1209259
it appears you are right
>Belcae. 1) Gesamtbezeichnung der skythischen [199] Völker, Mela III 36; aus III 57 Thyle Belcarum litori adposita est ergiebt sich, dass hier unter Skythen die Bewohner der britannischen Inseln zu verstehen sind; die Nachricht geht wohl auf Pytheas zurück.
But! Still it could be that they are related.
The Menapii have been called Manapii and Monapii for example.
There are other such alternative spelling examples.
>>1209273
"That here under the Scythians inhabitants of the British Isles are to be found. cf. Pytheas"
I am going to read up on Pytheas, but as been said here before, there were Belgae living in Britain. Belcae is awfully close to Belgae, and there are no other Brithonic tribes with similar names.
So my question still stands. These were most probably Belgae.
>>1209273
Different alternative names are normally used in different sources. When not, the classic writer often explicitly states they're the same but have different names (Hedorotos often does that).
>>1209293
Often you say?
I'm again going back to my Menapii example
Menapii: Belgic Celtic tribe living in what is now Flanders, known sea-farers, their name means : the men of the (sea-god) Manannan mac Lir
Manapii: after Caesar's conquest they moved to SW Ireland together with the neighbouring Germanic tribe the Cauci (obviously these are the Chauci, whose name is still present in local toponyms as Cuxhaven, Koksijde) as name their colony Menapia
Isle of Man, or Monapia
Anglesey, or Mona
last two have been by the Monapii
Flemish town of Menen
Irish towns Clonmannan, Mangans, Monanarigg, Dunmanogue, Mongaun, Monore and literally tens of other similar names all in the same area of "Menapia"
the Mannaw of Gododdin, the Menapian settlement on the Scottish Firth of Forth, we find names of villages as Slamannan, Achad Manach, Monenna, Balminnock, Camunnock, Clackmannan
Wales coast: older name of Anglesey still was Môn a couple of centuries ago, nearby: Plas Menai, Maenen Abbey, Menai Bridge, Menai Strait, Maentwrog, Maned, Menevia...
Then I even forgot about places like Dun Bolg and Bellek in Ireland
With Belgae tribes present in Britannia and referred to as Belgae by the locals and the Romans, I'm going to trust that the Belcae from Britain who settled on the Scythian coast (Scythia/Sarmatia a very large region from Baltic Sea to Black Sea, but we clearly see they settled east of the Vistula mounding) were Belgae.
