Former Christian here. I can't really go with this faith anymore. I've narrowed down my option to two choices: Judaism or Islam. Which one should I go with?
Which one is better at backing up it's theological claims?
What are the pros and cons of each?
>>1207747
Atheism.
>>1207747
Islam is the best faith but religion really isn't subjective. It's far better than Judaism though.
>>1207747
>Be Muslim
>Get put on a CIA watchlist
>Be Jewish
>Get mad professional connections
The choice is obvious.
>>1207747
They're both theologically indefensible, if you think Christianity is bad there is no way you could work with any of these.
Islamic civic life is great though, if that's what you're really after, a lifestyle.
Both of them also have their espeacially retarded quirks, but you at least can be a muslim without marrying a jew first and hope to be accepted because you lack the holy DNA or something like that.
Islam has its own baggage that might repulse you in the end the way christianity did, so your faith will be one of strenght which is another plus.
>>1207747
Judaism. They still let you drink.
And to be fair, the Quran has more scientific errors in it than the Torah.
If you're going pure Quran Islam it's probably better. You coming from Christianity to it's (claimed) successor might be a problem. I don't know why you left Christianity though.
>>1207747
They are all equally theologically defensible, but if all you speak/read is English you'll have a hard time finding good literature on Islam that's akin to something like Aquinas.
In any case, if you are abandoning your old faith and suddenly feel the need to fill the void with one of the remaining two mainstream Abrahamic religions, without any real understanding or connection to either, you are an interesting study on the psychology of theism just by existing.
Unless you are just trolling, in which case, good on you, 7/10 for getting this response from me, you stupid fucking faggot.
>>1207747
Well obviously Judaism. Jews are inferior human beings, but they also secretly rule the world with impunity, which is in no way whatsoever a paradoxical worldview.
>>1207808
Word of warning though, if you chance your mind about being a Muslim the official penalty for apostasy is death.
>>1207747
>Out of the frying pan
>Into the fire
Religious fags everyone, they can't live without being cucked by someone.
>Islamic civic life is great though
are you insane?
>>1207808
>Interesting study subject.
Not really.
The thing is -at least in the west- there are no alternative religions but for some often heretically distorted hippie versions of far eastern ones present besides the other abrahamic ones that would seem intriguing for a possible convert.
Islam is very strong at the moment and often gets away with a lot of its claims unchallenged due to the strenght of its community and the fear and respect it instills in the infidels.
That is attractive as power is attractive for some people by its own merit.
So its not really that bizarre, just some form of spiritual oppurtonism.
>>1207747
>Former Christian here. I can't really go with this faith anymore
Then become Catholic/Orthodox and be apart of the true faith.
>Judaism or Islam
>Which one is better at backing up it's theological claims?
Judaism but it's been superseded by Jesus' Church. Islam is laughably wrong.
>>1207829
>Islam is very strong at the moment and
Not really. It is cannibalising itself. The entire Ummah is imploding. You have a situation where muslims hate each other more than they hate jews, christians or pagans
>>1207747
Islam's actively looking for converts, but if you want to go Jewish you'll need to find an Anne Frankfu first.
>>1207747
Zoroastrianism. It's pretty dank and needs more followers.
or Sikhism
>>1207808
Everything is theologically defensible since theology is the study of doublethink and moving goalposts
>>1207837
>Judaism but it's been superseded by Jesus' Church
>Judaism has anything to do with the religion of the Israelites, the worship of YHWH and the tanakh beyond superficial ritual reasons
LMAO
>>1207837
>catholicism
Better not.
If he is european and doesnt live in one of the few cozy western european villages in which not 80% of the population is sterile and over 50 he will be faced with infantile feelgood gospels, overaged communities and prists who social signal for the latest political trend.
I thought about reading into christianity.
Orthodoxy is still legit and appears strong but focusses more on keeping certain ethnics pious in a way that is befitting to them (churchslavic/arameic gospels) so.outsiders may have a harder time getting in as long as they dont bring some bigger chunk of their own community with them.
>>1207747
Islam is fucking stupid though. In Quran sura 11 it says that Allah created the world in 6 days, and then goes on to say what he did each day. However if you add the days up it adds to 8. Christ this reads like a parody of Abrahamic religion
source: http://quran.com/11
Former muslim here OP, ama
>>1207840
Eh, while the wahabbis are fucking up the other groups and shias are struggling for relevance as always you still can bet on them being closer to each other when it matters. Also its not like their numerous kids go through waves of apostasy at the moment like it happened to european christians.
At least if they are still the minority in a country.
>>1207867
i misspoke, in sura 11 it says that it was created in 6 days but in sura 41 it goes over what he did in each of the 8 days (lol)
>reject an Abrahamic faith
>in favor of two other Abrahamic faiths
That's like rejecting Coca Cola and then narrowing your alternatives down to Pepsi and Dr. Pepper
>>1207868
what made you leave islam?
>>1207747
I mean I'm a muslim so I'm going to back Islam. No matter what I say it's obviously going to be biased. I love Islam, study it if you want and you might have the same feelings as me.
>>1207877
All forms of theology just seemed inadequate in explaining the universe. That's how it started. It just does not make sense to me anymore.
>>1207880
You are sunni or shia?
>>1207850
While 99.9% of so called "Jews" are Talmudists, there are a few true hold outs like the 777 Samaritans that are being persecuted BY ISRAEL.
>>1207891
>Oral Torah isn't a thing
>>1207859
>If he is european and doesnt live in one of the few cozy western european villages in which not 80% of the population is sterile and over 50 he will be faced with infantile feelgood gospels, overaged communities and prists who social signal for the latest political trend.
What are you talking about?
>>1207895
And it was written down into the Torah. The Talmud is a new invention by apostates that postdates Christianity.
>>1207897
Im saying that if he happens to be european (him being that or from the anglosphere would be an assumption based on his faith struggles and christianity as his initial faith) catholicism is a bad choice currently if you wanna enter a religious community.
They need to reform badly in the west or die slowly/africanise fully.
>>1207900
>age = level of veracity
>mfw /pol/theists actually believe this
>>1207900
I love how Christians on 4chan laugh at sola Scriptura UNTIL Judaism comes up.
>lol you need to join a continuous church, sola scriptura is dumb
>Except for Jews, they should only follow the bible and not care about what historic church leaders have to say about anything.
>>1207891
Can't find anything on these guys.
But either way, I'd bet money that their readings of the Tanakh are still informed by the talmudic tradition and the kabbalah.
>>1207842
Underrated post. Islam is enthusiastic about conversion just like Christianity, but Jews actively discourage converts. They're supposed to send you away three times, and you probably have to marry in. Even then,you would probably have to be Reform, certainly never Orthodox.
>>1207748
You have to be over 18 to post here.
>>1207747
Why the fuck would you drop Christianity for Islam or Judaism?
>Which one is better at backing up it's theological claims?
On a scale of 1-10? Islam gets a 0. There's a reason it only exist in areas where there's no internet connection; archeology in the 1800s already debunked it. Judaism gets a 10/10, because it's so small that any debate is meaningless. Christianty gets a 10/10, because Europeans are pretty smart and already thought of every counter argument and answer
>What are the pros and cons of each?
In Islam? It literally means submission. There are no pros. In Judaism? Well, you can actually live a normal life, just go to church. In Christianty? Same shit as Judaism.
>>1208056
>Sky-daddy believers calling others underage.
>>1208065
>Christianity gets a 10/10 for theological claims
Christians struggle to make any sense of Jesus being the messiah, or even not being polytheists for that matter.
Whilst Europeans have debated the broader points of theism to hell and back, the actual underpinnings of Christianity specifically are still nothing short of nonsense.
Jews won't want you, Islam will welcome you.
>>1208067
>autistic thinks childish name calling makes him mature and savvy
>>1208076
Im not a fan of Islam but thats just bait.
>>1208086
>Calls others underage and autistic.
>y-you're just childish. Stop calling me names!
>>1208092
I'm not encouraging Islam.
But Christianity itself has been absolutely BTFO by Jewish theologians and has been for many centuries now. There's simply no defending it.
>>1207759
>>1208076
Just because you've never heard of, or have found, the arguments, doesn't mean they don't exist. You're looking at about...1500 years of theological discussions by the same race of people who study atomic molecules, traveled to the moon and discovered worm holes in space.
The point is, I think somewhere along the line, at least one of them talked about it
>>1208100
:^) yes we all know how those Jews BTFO Christians so hard, that the Roman Empire ended up converting to it
>>1208102
>One guy said it
>Therefore it's Muslim doctrine
The idea that Islam isn't universalist is totally retarded.
>>1207747
I've never understood this shit, how can you choose a religion? Don't you have to actually feel the stuff they teach you is the absolute truth of the universe in order to accept it? I could understand converting to whatever faith if you felt it drew you but going out there shopping for belief systems and hoping to slap a label on yourself sounds incredibly intellectually dishonest.
>>1208100
I crave for a revival of gnostic sects ao we can just dump the clusterfuck of tribal levantine history that is the OT.
Didnt abraham plant a tree for the Lord ?
Why did the followers of Moses and modern jews in general dont follow this practize that eerily resembles the one of their pagan neighboors?
>>1208096
>implying "Sky-daddy" isn't a childish insult
>implying crusading for atheism doesn't reek of autism
>>1208107
>You're looking at about...1500 years of theological discussions by the same race of people who study atomic molecules, traveled to the moon and discovered worm holes in space.
Yes, good for them.
Congratulations, their descendents went to space. This does not make their musings on Jesus' fulfillment of Old Testament teachings to be any more compelling in the face of Jewish criticism.
Not to mention if we're taking scientific accomplishments as making theological views more credible then Jews still wipe the floor with Christians.
>:^) yes we all know how those Jews BTFO Christians so hard, that the Roman Empire ended up converting to it
Yes, and now huge amounts of the descendents of those Romans are Muslim. Guess this means Islam is the one true faith.
>>1208115
>Implying appealing to maturity isn't the most childish tactic there is.
>Implying anyone here was crusading for atheism.
>>1208109
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Arab_world
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/189837/muslim-countries-are-most-racist-world-daniel-greenfield
>>1208129
Christians were racist as fuck once as well. This does not make Christianity itself any less universalist.
>>1208065
>Lying about polytheism is so deep and original guys
>>1208123
Ah...I knew you were the same guy
>Jews still wipe the floor
Yes, European Ashkezani Jews. Not semetic ones
>>1208115
>implying crusading for religion doesn't reek of autism
ftfy
>>1208127
you started it
>>1208133
72 virgins vs nuffin
>>1208123
>jews wiped the floor in science
If secular non religious jews do not count and we only take pious researches as valid examples I am pretty sure your statement wont be accurate anymore.
>>1208132
>Yes, European Ashkezani Jews. Not semetic ones
Okay? Is your point that Europeans are the master race? Whatever.
But how does this relate to the validity of Christianity vs Judaism?
>>1207891
*sigh* Where did you get the idea Samaritans are being persecuted by Israel? Samaritans have it pretty good in Israel, (a hell of a lot better than they had under Muslim and Christian rule,) especially since their religion is so close to Judaism. And all the Talmud really is a book dictating how the laws of the Torah should be interpreted, and ways to be careful not to break those laws that Jews have to follow.
>>1208137
Here is a quick history of the "Abrahamic" religions:
Judaism:
>Some good ideas. Very small. Unappealing to outsiders. They're outdated, because they refused to adapt to Christianty. They're contrarians who sadly do not accept the Lord's teachings that Jesus is God.
Christianity:
>The same ideas as Judaism, but with some more, new ideas. Very appealing. The early Christians were peaceful and accepted death without fighting back, which attracted followers. The Romans, although disliking it first, loved it. It's philosophies have shaped the modern world
Islam
>Bastardization of Judaism. It spread quickly by warfare, by mainly attacking incredibly weak Africans. As soon as it came in contact with more powerful tribes, it was turned back. now every Muslim is forced to remain Muslim because it stagnated and peaked around 1000 years ago.
>>1208082
Orthodox Jews will only want people absolutely dedicated to following every biblical law.
>>1208152
If you consider the way Manicheanism spread it seems to have been a contender for a most truthful religion.
Sadly it died ;_;
>>1208142
I've yet to see a single sentence or anything from a Jewish standpoint discussing the "validity" of Christianity vs Judaism
nether , be your own.
>>1208157
In general or in this specific conversation?
>>1208152
Early Christians used to smash up pagan cult sites, attack the local pagans as a mob, and celebrate the leading monk responsible by declaring him a saint and writing a hagiography about him.
>>1207747
Advaita Vedanta
>>1208145
But the rewards of life are a bunch of loving wives and a horde of children
>>1208174
Me on the far left
>>1208170
Okay, check this out
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/wiki/jesus
The crux of the argument is that Jesus died leaving the messianic prophecy unfulfilled. This has been a mainstay of Jewish v Christian theological debate since there was such a thing as Christianity and thus far there has never been a real answer beyond "He'll do it later" or "He actually did do it but for whatever reason the world is nothing like how the bible explained it would be".
>>1208173
absolutely the correct answer. kind, philosophically complete, doesnt deny other spiritual paths. sophia perennis is another term. forget about judaism and islam unless you can find the mystical path through them.
>>1208184
>>1208184
All right, I'll take a little peek. Just know that I'm not theologian, and these are just my opinions
On the Isiah verse, Isiah, before prophesying, says "In the last days". As a Jew, you know that's a pretty common phrase among the prophets. So thats a moot argument, purely semantics
I scrolled down and as for the rest, they are fairly poor "arguments" if they can even be called so. I wouldn't even call them arguments, because they're more along the lines of "begging the question". The "arguments" are that because of the Holocaust or because of China's military, Jesus could not possible be Lord. That's not an argument, but more of the writer trying to confirm his own misunderstandings. Most of what he said could easily be smackdowned by a $5 book at Barnes n Noble
>>1208223
Except that is a very valid argument because the messianic prophecies of Issiah specifically stipulate that the world will be at peace.
>"Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore."
The fact that armies still exist and massive atrocities have happened to the Jews in recent history is a pretty glaring flaw in the idea that the messiah has come. Of course the Christian response is that all this will be resolved in the second coming but that's a whole new point of contention.
>>1208232
The major issue is really that jews are (and have really always been) hardcore materialists, while Christians, and thus in their view prophecy is not.
>>1208232
Yes, Isiah states the world will be at peace in the last days. "In the last days" is/was a common phrase by Hebrew prophets. As a Jew, you should know this. After the last of days, according to Jewish theology, the Lord will create a new Earth, which is the world Isiah talks about for the rest of his book. Often times it's called New Jerusalem, or Heaven.
The Christian is already a citizen of New Jerusalem. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you," are the words of Jesus. By accepting Christ, the Christian is not like the Jew, who sits around waiting for deliverance. If God is Love, and God and Jesus are One, then the Christian who emulates Christ is in a constant euphoric feeling of purity and love. The Christian is actively "praying without ceasing" (another of Jesus' words), because the Christian is in a state of constant love or peace, yearning for the purity that Judaism rejects
>When Jesus came to earth, the Jews were looking for the Messiah to come and elevate the Jewish nation to prominence. Instead of hearing a message of repentance, they anticipated a Deliverer who would lead them in a successful liberation of their nation. And some of the religious authorities apparently believed that they—because of their careful investigation—would be the ones to first discover the promised Savior’s coming.
I'm no theologian, but these are my thoughts at 3AM
>>1208244
How do you know? Can you honestly say you've known every Jew throughout history and then say that each and every one of them was materialistic? Besides, I'm pretty sure Judaism is against materialism and promotes humility.
>>1208318
Ontological materialism you dip, it's important that you know basic terminology when you try to discuss these kinds of things.
>>1207747
That's not how religion works...
>>1208318
Jewish does not promote as much humility as Christianity, but you're right
>>1207747
If you really want to be put on the CIA watch list, then go ahead. Also, going kosher is going to be a bitch though
>>1208284
Not the person you replied to, but the thing is that in Judaism, the last days are supposed to signify when the messiah comes THE FIRST TIME AROUND. There's no concept of a, "second coming," in Judaism. Basically Jews believe that when world peace is achieved, it will be during the messiah's lifetime. Also, don't you think it's a little ironic that the belief in Jesus as messiah has inspired so many wars throughout history when the coming of the messiah is supposed to bring world peace? Maimondies actually pointed out how ironic it was that so many Jews werw murdered in the name of Christianity when te coming of the messiah was supposed to be the ingathering of the Jewish exiles, which, BTW, is supposed to end the Jews' suffering.
>coming to fucking 4chan of all places to ask if you should be a Jew or Muslim
You'd be better off listening to some speakers on YouTube, reading into both faiths and making your own sense of it. Being that most of us were raised in the West, none of us can adequately and/or objectively explain these faiths
>>1207837
>Islam is laughably wrong.
How so? Ignoring hadith
>>1208152
How do you explain Islam's spread into southeast Asia? Or its golden age of science and innovation while Christian Europe was in the dark ages?
>>1207747
>Abandoning the only sane religion in Abrahamic fuckery over another batshit insane religion.
>>1208426
Lol.... at you still using the "dark ages" term.
>Or its golden age of science and innovation
1. The Middle-East had always been a place of great innovation before Islam.
2. The Golden Age is largely dependent on the conquered.
3. It's Golden Age stopped whenever the Islamic Jihad was beaten.
4. After the Mongolian invasions, Islamic scientist could no longer compete with Christian or Buddhist scientist. Why? Because Islam's golden age was based on past Greek libraries that were now destroyed
>>1208426
>How do you explain Islam's spread into southeast Asia?
They are two explanation
1. Islam is popular in basically important part in the world, (Arabian Peninsular, Persia and India) so Malay convert themselves so they can jew them for extra golds.
2. Some chinks convert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He make the the religion popular in SEA and since SEA is basically sinophile they also tried to emulate the chinese.
>>1207822
>are you insane?
>when anon doesn't understand sarcasm nor pic related
>>1208107
I think he was talking about in theological debates Jewish leaders were forced into, not so much who ended up converting to what. Also, it's actually possible the Roman Empire would've become Jewish had Christianity never existed. Roman citizens who had some sort of religious feeling tended to be sympathetic towards Judaism for a certain period of time, (I'm guessing for its spirituality,) but then Christianity came along which had the same type of spirituality, was actively trying to seek out converts, and didn't require converts to follow tons of different rules. Frankly, it was easier to be Christian than it was to be Jewish, so Judaism ended up not standing a chance in the end.
>>1207747
The reason why neitzche dispised judaism was; if the start of monotheism was to rub shit on your head the jews would be still doing it
Judaism 100%
>>1208745
No. Rome wasn't going to become jewish if christianity never existed. The jews started way too much shit and got BTFO by roman armies too much for the average roman to ever consider their religion and belief system worthwhile.
What was more likely was a re-imagining of the old religion of the empire along neoplatonic lines.
>>1208877
not to mention how closed off and snooty judaism is, they dont even want new members, it's "their" religion
>>1207747
Choosing one of the two dirty pigs. But whatever you do, don't degenerate yourself and convert to Islam. Judaism, go with it.
>>1207747
Of the three Abrahamic religions, Christianity is the one that makes the least amount of sense with its Trinity BS. So good on you for doing it.
Regarding your conversion, Islam will embrace you and Judaism will reject you.
So, the best choice for you would be Islam. The sense of universal community is quite strong and IMO it's greatest attraction. However, you cannot drink or eat pork. Your actions in this world determine your fate in the afterlife, which makes much more sense than the Christian belief. There's also the pray 5 times a day thing and fasting during Ramadan.
But if you're gonna go full casual and ignore the rules of Islam, might as well go all the way to deism or atheism.
>>1208880
Again, Orthodox Judaism doesn't have a problem with new members, but only if they're absolutely dedicated to following all of the laws of the Torah. That was one of the reasons people found Christianity more appealing.
>>1209137
The Jews used to have great success in converting people but sometime after the Bar Kokhba revolt they adopted an anti-proselytism stance. Some sources estimate that as much as 10% of the Roman empire's population was Jewish at one point.
>>1207747
I think you should honestly jump off a bridge, you degenerate.
>>1207859
>infantile feel good gospels
You must be confused with Protestantism. You realise the Bible is the only Gospel that is read in Catholic masses?
>>1207859
>it's a proddy doesn't know jack shit episode
Shouldn't you be cucking for the Jews?
>>1207747
>christuckoldry
>eternal jewdaism
>mudslam
Go for Zoroastrianism. Why chose the copy when you can have the original? What, they don't accept converts? Well bad luck then.
>>1209169
>Zoroastrianism
Shouldn't you be dead?
>>1209148
Yeah, I guess that's what a lot of secular historians believe, although the whole anti-proseltyism stance was taken from the Book of Ruth, which existed long beforehand, so I don't know how it could've been like that.
>>1209171
>anti-proseltyism stance was taken from the Book of Ruth
where does it say that in Ruth?
>>1209173
She tries to dissuade Ruth from converting.
>>1209169
Iranian zoros accept converts. Western LARPers not allowed though.
I mean who would SERIOUSLY think about converting to Islam? I get Judaism, it's disgusting but at least you get to have business connections (I would prefer freemasonry or the rotary club for that), but FUCKING ISLAM? ARE you out of your fucking mind? (Or maybe you're woman? Would make perfect sense...).
>>1209177
hmm well it could simply be an example of the Rabbis latching onto something in the Torah later on to justify their new stance.
>>1209170
Zoroastrianism converted polytheistic Canaanite Hebrews to monotheism and gave taught them the heaven, hell, the final judgement and the messiah memes which are still going on to this day. So in a way Zoroastrianism will never be dead.
>>1209191
>Zoroastrianism
Man I wish the Ayatollah would of made the attempt to purged you fags desu.
>>1208096
>stop calling me names.
Fucking kek
>>1209187
But what reason would she have had to dissuade her if it wasn't to be absolutely sure she was dedicated to keeping all of the Torah laws? That's the thing, the anti-proseltyism stance is meant to keep out anyone who isn't as dedicated.
>>1209194
>hurr burge ebrybin
Abrahamite logic
>>1209198
What country you live in boy?
>>1207747
Neither. And why would you ask us mongs to argue which, out of two flawed ideas is the best to subscribe to?
>>1209197
>anti-proseltyism stance is meant to keep out anyone who isn't as dedicated.
I suppose so, but they clearly just had a different attitude in the second temple period and didn't attach much meaning to those passages in Ruth. There are plenty of references to Jewish converts in the Septuagint and new Testament. The very word proselytism comes from that phenomenon. The word proselyte originally meant an ethnically Greek Jew.
How is islam more justifiable than christianity? Judaism is more justifiable than islam (hurr Mohammed).
>>1208184
Not very strong arguments really
>>1207747
pick all 3.
Islam is the most logical one, as long as you follow actual Islam and not the political Islam that's being established by Saudi Arabia across the Muslim world.
Islam is a very diverse religion that's being currently standardized by tribal nomads who suddenly have too much money.
But look into Sufism. I've been to a Sufi gathering where everyone just smoked weed and talked about how awesome God was. Sometimes they drink, sometimes they're all about being completely sober. It's all about connecting with God.
They also focus on the sayings of the prophet, who told people to avoid politics and the ruling class. Muslims who believe Islam should be a political system are proven wrong by these quotes by the prophet, but it's disregarded because there is too much money in it.
>>1209279
you're such a moron it's unbelievable.
>>1209286
>insults
>don't respond with counter points
I'm sorry that the facts don't fit into your nationalism fervor.
>>1207747
Judaism, because you can still drink. Also it's fairly theologically consistent, at least when compared with the other two Abrahamic faiths.
>>1208102
Muhammad:“There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white — except by piety."
You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to re-arrange much of my thought-patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions. This was not too difficult for me. Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth.
During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept in the same bed (or on the same rug)--while praying to the same God--with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the actions in the deeds of the 'white' Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan, and Ghana.
We were truly all the same (brothers)--because their belief in one God had removed the white from their minds, the white from their behavior, and the white from their attitude.
I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man--and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their 'differences' in color.
-Malcolm X
Just because a Wahhabi is racist doesn't mean all Muslims are.
>>1209296
Islam has been an explicitly political project since Mohammed was able to obtain political power. When he didn't have power he was all like "Oh god the political class is so corrupt and oppressive."
Read about abrogation sometime.
>>1207759
you know that once you successfully convert to Judaism you're considered fully 100% Jewish? You don't have to marry anyone.
I hate this "the Jews had a modern understanding of race and ethnicity 5000 years ago" meme
>>1208132
ashkenazi Jews are Semitic you stupid fuck
>>1209302
>Islam has been an explicitly political project since Mohammed was able to obtain political power.
actually no, Muhammad relegated power down to his companions, and allowed tribal chiefs that allied with Muslims to remain whatever religion they wanted, and to remain in charge of their tribe.
Muhammad also set up Muslims to dismantle any power and wealth that might be passed down to his family. ALl of Muhammad's belongings were spread throughout the Muslim community. The next 4 Caliphs were elected, until the Ummayads usurped, and began to alter Hadith to say that Muslims should follow Islam as a law.
Also, Muhammad's position as leader over Muslims was divinely inspired, according to Islam. No one after Muhammad has that divinity, and therefore, no one is divinely inspired to lead. That just means the people can choose how to lead all they want.
What this means for a Muslim is that if they are even in a position of power, Islam only acts as a limiter, not as an imposer of power. Which is how most of Islamic history has gone. Plenty of Muslim kings and Caliphs complained about being limited by Islam, believing they should have more power. Islam, as a political system, is Libertarian more than anything else.
>Read about abrogation sometime.
irrelevant. All Muhammad did was set limitation on political power. nothing else.
>>1209313
no, they're european. They look european. They act European. They are hyper nationalistic and racist like Europeans.
You don't live in Europe for more than 2000 years and get to pretend to still be Middle Eastern.
>>1208170
>saints are a catholic thing
Wew
>>1208067
non-atheist =/= an active participant in any organized religion
>>1207747
If you convert to Judaism you get free citizenship in Israel and free shekels
>>1209302
Likewise Christianity was used as a political force for over a millennium, so what? Obviously religion is gonna be used for political gain.
>>1209313
No they're fucking germans.
>>1209339
Christianity in its origins was explicitly apolitical, "My kingdom is not of the this world"
Islam is the opposite.
>>1209315
>is Libertarian more than anything else.
lol now I know you're just baiting me.
>>1209339
>Likewise Christianity was used as a political force for over a millennium, so what?
Because Rome fell and they had to pick up the fucking pieces and help the people out. Jesus Mary and Joseph the how retarded are you?
>>1209301
t. Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin
>>1209315
>that allied with Muslims
and those that didn't were violently conquered.
Thanks for proving my point.
>>1207747
they are literally the same thing mate... just another kike religion like the one you had...
>>1207747
do you really need a faith?
>>1209321
ashkenazi Jews are genetically more similar to Palestinian Arabs than they are to any European ethnicity
>>1207891
You know Jews these days just consider Samaritans another sect of Judaism, right? Since they've both felt oppression they seemed to have teamed up.
>>1209321
Well their most well known physical trait, those long shlongs, is pretty common among Middle Easterners. They definitely have very similar facial features to Arabs.
>>1207747
>guys, I can't into Abrakikeism 2.0, should I pick Abrakikeism 1.0 or Abrakikeism 3.0?
Btw if you're non-white I don't give a shit.
Can't help but notice how quick people are to shit on others' beliefs with objectively baseless accusations while disregarding extraordinary proof of their own beliefs' stupidity/corruption.
>>1208385
Islam claims the bible was corrupted after Muhammad. Textually criticism shows the opposite.
>>1209489
>the opposite
So, the Bible was corrupted before Muhammad. Yeah, I can see exactly how that's true. Thanks for pointing it out.
>>1207747
So you don´t actually believe in god, you just want to say you do?
>>1207923
The Talmud came out of nowhere like the book of Mormon and Watch Tower shit to suit their amoral needs.
>>1208425
>Atheism isn't a belief system, it is the lack of one
Atheism is neither.
An atheist is a person who does not believe there is a god. The only belief systems that atheism precludes are those that necessitate the existence of a god or gods.
>>1208141
This. The sort of thinking that groups all successful people who could by some stretch be considered Jewish into Judaism to make some kind of statement that Jews are better than other people is what the Nazis embraced about Germans.
Richard Feynman didn't want to be included in a book about successful Jews for this reason.
>>1208102
I'm not Muslim but...
>taking wahhabist Muslims seriously
>being this stupid
>>1207842
Not true at all
>>1207747
Serious question here.
If you need to convince yourself of a certain truth how can you really believe it?
>>1208050
Orthodox Judaism absolutely accepts converts, and you don't need to marry a Jew first.
>>1207747
>Which one should I go with?
Neither. Don't rely on religions to do your thinking for you. Form a philosophy that makes sense to you, and live by that.
>>1210145
>Don't rely on sciences to do your thinking for you. Form a philosophy that makes sense to you, and live by that
>>1210175
Did I say something that upset you?
>>1210130
>If you need to convince yourself of a certain truth how can you really believe it?
Yeah, why do scientists waste time doing experiments when they already have the truth in hypotheses? That's why Aristotle is still the bestest scientist.
>>1210196
>That's why Aristotle is still the bestest scientist.
Well obviously.
>>1209301
>-Malcolm X
Toppest of keks
>>1207873
>Also its not like their numerous kids go through waves of apostasy at the moment like it happened to european christians.
But they are, refugee children are losing their religion far faster than Christian children did.
>>1207873
IIRC the Arabic translation of the God Delusion has been downloaded something like 3 million times in Saudi Arabia. So no, I wouldn't say that apostasy is unheard of in the MIddle East.
>>1210175
I never suggested that anyone live by any kind of philosophy.
>>1207747
Regardless of any theological claims and all other pros and cons, Judaism and Islam both require all adherents to be circumcised. If you are willing to proceed with genital mutilation, go ahead. If not, Christ is always ready to take you home.
>>1207829
>often heretically distorted hippie versions of far eastern ones
I never understood where this meme comes from. During my late teens I spent a while on a sort of spiritual quest, and I naturally spent a bit of time in and out of various Buddhist groups throughout my city.
From what I saw, all of them taught the proper dharma and where in no way diluted or full of new age hippy jargon. Hell, one of them was literally founded by white people *for* white people, and even that was strictly dharma.
I mean, if you count people who proclaim to follow Buddhism but don't actually attend any Buddhist institutions, then yeah you'd probably get some retards who say things like "we're all just part of the same whole, man." But by that same token that would be like getting your views on Christianity by going to a lapsed Catholic person and being surprised when they can't articulate the Nicene Creed.
>>1207843
Or Baha'i
>>1207747
>there are faggots that think faith is like a book club or someshit
>>1207747
Theology & Truth wise go for Judaism.
Bro-Tier wise go for (unmentioned) Sikh faith or Taoism.
Islam is a batshit insane option, considering Majority-Islam's stances.
IF you go for Islam however, then go for the Alevite, the Sufi, or the Ismaelite sect.They are the only bro-tier sects of Islam.
IF you go for Islam, as well keep >>1207820 in mind, unless you are suicidal.
>>1209161
I think he meant sermons/ homiletics.
>>1207747
convert to ISIS Islam and go get killed by a drone faggot.
>>1210351
THIS.
Enjoy hell
>>1209376
Lolno
Italians are their closest relatives
>>1208100
>BTFO by Jewish theologians
Jewish theologians came up with the trinity before Jesus even came.
>>1210351
And even if you do leave for a time, Jesus will be waiting for your return.
>>1210604
>Citation needed.
>>1209112
>But if you're gonna go full casual and ignore the rules of Islam, might as well go all the way to deism or atheism.
not like fasiqs will go to hell, m8. at least according to some of sects
>>1207747
>gets off a desert cult
>immediately looking for another
I recommend a good shot to the head.
>>1210351
Not really, it's sunnah mu'akkadah, not obligatory but highly recomended
>>1208050
>Underrated post. Islam is enthusiastic about conversion just like Christianity, but Jews actively discourage converts. They're supposed to send you away three times,
This is correct
>and you probably have to marry in. Even then,you would probably have to be Reform, certainly never Orthodox.
This is incorrect. Judaism does not require marriage to enter the religion, and only Orthodox conversion is considered valid by all sects of Judaism.
>>1207748
God these sky-daddy-believing pathetic animals need to be removed from our kind
>>1212785
In fact, quite a few Orthodox Rabbis won't consider a "Convert to marry in" as a valid conversion, since you're doing it for an external benefit.
>>1210577
I hate this meme
It depends on whether you look at the mDNA or the Y chromosome
>>1210068
It didn't. The Talmud is essentially a compilation of Rabbinic commentaries on the Hebrew Bible.
If you hate the Talmud, it's only right that you ought to hate formal churches in Christianity as well given that they exist to serve the same purpose.
>>1212871
>It didn't. The Watch Tower magazine is essentially a compilation of Jehovah's Witness commentaries on the Holy Bible.
>If you hate the Watch Tower, it's only right that you ought to hate formal churches in Christianity as well given that they exist to serve the same purpose.
>>1212823
Agreed, atheists who believe god is a literally a sky-daddy are beyond the point of no return in the autism spectrum and need to be removed from the gene pool.
>>1212975
I assume you got the wrong idea.
>>1212949
Actually I suppose that's true.
Why hate Watchtower magazine so much?
>>1207747
Zoroastrianism is the only respectable monotheistic religion, everyone else was just copied from it or its copies.
>>1208232
>massive atrocities have happened to the Jews in recent history
The Jews were evil - they invented communism and were/are actively spreading it along with atheism - and God did what He promised to do in Deuteronomy by delivering them into the power of their enemies and killing the whole lot of them off. This happened all the time in the Hebrew Bible. It really shouldn't be a surprise by now nor should the inevitable 2nd, 3rd, and 4th holocausts shock anyone when they happen.
>>1213187
>Communism is evil
Communism is proof that the true Messianic age is neigh.
>>1207747
>not choosing Daoism
>>1208343
>the belief in Jesus as messiah has inspired so many wars throughout history
[citation needed]
>>1209177
Because it is an alien land and didn't want Ruth to go through what she did in Moab.
8 But Naomi said to her two daughters-in-law, ‘Go back each of you to your mother’s house. May the Lord deal kindly with you, as you have dealt with the dead and with me. 9 The Lord grant that you may find security, each of you in the house of your husband.’ Then she kissed them, and they wept aloud. 10 They said to her, ‘No, we will return with you to your people.’ 11 But Naomi said, ‘Turn back, my daughters, why will you go with me? Do I still have sons in my womb that they may become your husbands? 12 Turn back, my daughters, go your way, for I am too old to have a husband. Even if I thought there was hope for me, even if I should have a husband tonight and bear sons, 13 would you then wait until they were grown? Would you then refrain from marrying? No, my daughters, it has been far more bitter for me than for you, because the hand of the Lord has turned against me.’ 14 Then they wept aloud again. Orpah kissed her mother-in-law, but Ruth clung to her.
15 So she said, ‘See, your sister-in-law has gone back to her people and to her gods; return after your sister-in-law.’ 16 But Ruth said,
‘Do not press me to leave you
or to turn back from following you!
Where you go, I will go;
where you lodge, I will lodge;
your people shall be my people,
and your God my God.
17 Where you die, I will die—
there will I be buried.
May the Lord do thus and so to me,
and more as well,
if even death parts me from you!’
18 When Naomi saw that she was determined to go with her, she said no more to her.
>>1213071
>Zoroastrianism
>Monotheist
The Gathas include a prayer for a different deity to be said on each day of the month, and even the modern incarnation is essentially a belief in a good deity vs an evil deity that struggle for supremacy. It's hardly monotheistic.
>>1209112
>Your actions in this world determine your fate in the afterlife, which makes much more sense than the Christian belief
No, it's Islam that's nonsensical.
>Just do more good than evil.
>You don't need to repent doing bad stuff as long as you do marginally more good.
>>1209483
>disregarding extraordinary proof
Calling god spaghetti over and over again isn't extraordinary proof.
>>1212998
It contradicts 1900 years of Christianity
