Discuss this intriguing bronz age culture, their way of life, their religion, their day to day life and everythin that made them such an interesting and fascinating people.
Posting obligatory qt's
Only popular because of meme boob dresses
>>1207314
>>1207321
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_azCIe_0Kk
you can also go back to >>>>>/r9k? if you want, but i guess between returning to that cesspit and suicide, killing yourself is the merciful option.
>>1207314
cuck
>not enjoying based bronze age civilization.
i wonder why god destroyed their civilization with volcano
>>1207314
They were destroyed by earthquakes and volcanoes, not pirates.
>>1207355
you remind me of someone called AKOBADAGETH from a long time ago
>>1207355
> Not liking sipping wine in your decorated balcony while looking at the boats coming and going throught the port as they arrive from their many travels across the shiny blue sea. All the while some half naked qt3.14 plays the harp beside you and you feel the ocean breeze rustling through your face.
Anon why are you such a faggot.
>>1207273
A couple questions:
1. Despite lack of written sources, could their language be Indo-European?
2. As the first civilization to appear in European soil, how did they influence the future civilizations of Europe? Specifically Ancient Greece.
3.Why did the women have their boobs hanging out?
>>1207399
1- We can't know for sure, as we can't translate their language atm.
2- Their art, architecture and building style later influenced the Myceneans and later the Classical Greeks.
3- Cultural thing, the same reason many cultures of the same time didn't cover their women's breasts (I.E Indus Valley Civilization and to a certain extent Egypt.)
>>1207396
>>1207399
>1. Despite lack of written sources, could their language be Indo-European?
No.
>2. As the first civilization to appear in European soil, how did they influence the future civilizations of Europe? Specifically Ancient Greece.
They hugely influenced the Mycenaeans, who were pretty much their cultural successors. But the Classical Greeks would not have been hugely influenced by their civilization because the Bronze Age Collapse completely destroyed the Mycenaeans, and with them the influence of the Minoans. The Classical Greeks basically rebuilt their civilization from scratch, even having to adopt Phoenician writing because Mycenaean script had been completely forgotten. Mycenaean and Minoan civilization were vaguely remembered in the Homeric epics and other Greek legends, but overall the Classical Greeks really owed more to the likes of the Egyptians, Phoenicians and Assyrians than to the Mycenaeans or Minoans.
>>1207439
I Heard somewhere that they inspired Plato's myth of Atlantis, how true is that statement?
One of you niggers needs to decipher Linear A.
It's not like you're going anything more important.
Come on already.
>>1207273
Having exposed tits is all well and good if the female is nubile and attractive, but would you really want to see the sagging tits of the elderly or the deformed tits of the uglies?
>>1207293
>>1207273
tiddies
>>1207606
let's post moar minoan qt3.14s alongside the discussion
>>1207621
Nah they look like your average southern european to me, which is probably what they did really look like, considering that their closest genetic descendents are modern day Cretans.
Going back to the topic, are there any good books or documentaries about them?
Any good depiction of them in popular culture and media?
>>1208078
>>1207314
>>1207355
WE
How did cretin come to its current English-language meaning?
>>1208088
It's a false friend, it comes from the French Chretien, meaning Christian. There was a couple of villages of inbred fucks living in the alps, and they called themselves christians so people wouldn't hate them, I don't exactly remember
What is their relationship to the Nuragics? Where they the descendants of Neolithic farmers? What's their relationship to the people who built Göbelki Tepe? What's their relationship to the people who first domesticated cattle in Anatolia? What's their relationship to the people who first began farming in Anatolia? What was their relationship to the Etruscans?
>inb4 they had no relationship to these groups whatsoever
>>1207396
>>1208078
Neolithic famers are masterrace :P
>>1208189
They are descended from the same stock, sure, as are to an extent all european populations, but they aren't exactly all that closely related with ancient Sicilians and Anatolians either. The Minoans were closer to the myceneans and to a lesser extent to the classical greeks, as we know by DNA analyses that they were genetically closer to modern greeks (more specifically, to modern inhabitants of the cretan highlands) than they are to any modern people.
>>1208189
Yes, you can see from pic related that they were extremely close genetically.
The PCA analysis also highlights the high affinity of the Minoans to the current inhabitants of the Lassithi plateau as well as Greece. Among the top 10 nearest neighbours to our Minoan population sample, four are Greek populations and two of these from Lassithi prefecture (Fig. 5). The close relationship of the Minoans to modern Cretans is also apparent, when analysis is restricted to populations originating from Greece (Fig. 6b). Particularly in respect to the first PCA (capturing 92% of the variance of this particular subset of the data), the Minoans are extremely close to the modern Lassithi population, the populations from the islands of Chios and Euboea, as well as the populations of Argolis and Lakonia (Southern Greece ) (Fig. 6b). Thus, the modern inhabitants of the Lassithi plateau still carry the maternal genetic signatures of their ancient predecessors of the Minoan population.
It seems that there is (at least in terms of mtDNA) continuity in Crete since the Bronze Age, just as there is in Sardinia. And, indeed there appears to be some similarity between Bronze Age Sardinia and Minoan Crete (see Tables S5 and S6 of the supplement).
>>1207399
1. It's possible, but matching Linear A letters to their Linear B counterparts results in nothing immediately identifiable as Indo-European.
2. Art and architecture. Megarons, for example, are essentially Mycenaeanized adaptations of Minoan palatial buildings.
Also mythology. The Theseus cycle can be thought of in the context of Greek conquerors adapting to Minoan society. Some scholars would argue that many obscure Greek rituals trace their roots all the way back to the Minoan age.
3. #FreeTheNipple
>>1208084
WAZ
>>1208057
>Any good depiction of them in popular culture and media?
Nope, they're criminally unknown in the public consciousness. The most anyone knows about them is the minotaur story, and even that's already behind a thick greek lens.
>>1209827
That's an absolute shame, why won't anybody give the bronze age greek civilizations the light of day?
Moving alone, another question i've always had, were the minoans as peaceful as people claimed or is that just memes? I mean, i found an equal number of sources supporting both views ( warlike and peaceful.)
>you will never have a qt3.14 minoan waifu
Why live?
>>1209961
>why won't anybody give the bronze age greek civilizations the light of day?
What 'civilizations'? There were only two. The Mycenaean and the Minoan.
The Cyclades were hardly worthy of the title civilization. A few dozen or hundred people per island with no social stratification.
Mycenaeans get considerable attention but without more substantial Linear B findings it is hard to say much more about them. We know roughly their social/political makeup, a bit about their economy, and whatever geopolitical information can be gleamed from Hittite records and whatever cultural data is preserved in Homer.
Minoans we know nothing about except that they were apparently egalitarian, mostly peaceful, and used Egyptian artistic motifs (light skin for women, dark skin for men, very rigid human figures, similar skirt shapes).
The decipherment of Linear A would be the biggest thing to happen to history and archaeology in decades... but it doesn't appear very likely. Plus, we have such a small corpus that it except for language family, we probably wouldn't even learn anything.
>>1210191
>a few dozen per island
Are you legitimately retarded?
>>1209699
DANKY KANGZ
>>1207355
>>1208078
>>1207314
You forgot your usual trip, shouting retard.
>>1209961
>why won't anybody give the bronze age greek civilizations the light of day?
The Myceneans are very well studied, usually under their better-known name the Acheans. They were the protagonists of the Iliad and Odyssey, most of the best-known heroes were Acheans (Herakles, Achilles, Theseus, Perseus, etc etc) and most of what we think of as "Greek" mythology is, in fact, about the Acheans.
The Minoans are much less studied, because their language hasn't been deciphered. About the only thing experts are sure of is that they didn't speak any form of Greek. On the other hand, many elements of their culture were adopted by the Acheans, including several of their gods (most notably Zeus, Dionysos and Demeter).
>>1209827
>yfw Minos got literally got cucked by a BIG. WHITE. BULL.
>>1209961
>Moving alone, another question i've always had, were the minoans as peaceful as people claimed or is that just memes?
There is no evidence for fortifications on Crete during the entire ~2,000 years of Minoan rule, similarly no weapons have ever been found from this period on Crete, not even the arrowheads that are found almost everywhere. This all suggests that Crete itself was extremely peaceful, probably unified very early on. On the other hand, the Minoans controlled the seas around them and dominated the trade routes to Egypt and the Levant, so they can't have been pacifists. But there's little doubt that for the average Minoan living on Crete there was a quite exceptional lack of the kind of everyday violence other Bronze Age cultures engaged in.
>>1210208
There were Cycladic islands in the pre-Mycenaean bronze age with only dozens of inhabitants.
Cycladic peoples would island-hop for trading food and manufactured goods and marriage.
A few islands like Thera were massively settled, but the majority weren't.
>>1207273
>perky tits
Yeah right maybe up until she is 16 before her firstborn child.
>>1210247
>Zeus
The name and attributes of Zeus are all Indo-European there, lad. I don't know what you're talking about.
Also what evidence is there that Dionysos was Minoan?
>>1210295
And it's obvious that very small sialnds had a low population.
>>1210273
Ahh i see, thanks for the information, i'd imagined they'd have some sort of military navy to watch out the trade routes, even if they were indeed pacifists.
Now the question is, on one of the most war filled and brutal centuries of human existence, how did the Minoan civilization mantained peace for atleast 2000 years?
>>1210249
According to his enemies, sure. They were probably just confused by the Minoans Bull Cult, which is very evident in their art.
Speaking of the Labyrinth, it's name is from "Labrys", a word almost certainly of Minoan origin which signifies the ceremonial double-faced axes found across Crete, and which would have adorned the entrances to the Labyrinth (which means, "place of the twin-axe"). So effective was the Minoan bureucracy that the Greeks seem to have continued to rely on it to run the state, continuing to pay a special tithe to the "mistress of the Labyrinth", probably a deity but perhaps a priestess, who was in some way important to the Minoan administration.
>>1210311
Sure, but even the largest Cycladic islands didn't have more than a couple hundred.
Thera was a Minoan colony judging them the city (or cities?) uncovered there, and accordingly had a larger population.
The Cycladic people though were really bare-bones, salt of the earth people so far as we can tell. Like I said, no evidence for stratification exists at all in surviving floor plans or burials.
>>1210249
>Yfw the Minotaur is literally his wife's son
>>1210316
No evidence that Minoans were enemies of the Mycenaeans though.
They traded and co-habited peacefully for centuries before Thera wrecked Crete and the Mycenaeans took over.
All later Greek accounts of Minoans/Crete also demonstrate good relations except for Thesus, which was itself an Athenian fabrication and what parts of the story are original folklore and what parts are propaganda we don't know.
>>1210337
>No evidence that Minoans were enemies of the Mycenaeans though.
Yeah, apart from the fact that the Myceneans came and burned their cities to the ground.
>>1210308
Don't call me lad, faggot. Also the Greeks themselves maintained the tradition that Zeus was born on Crete, and nursed by the nymph of mount Dykte. Also note that King Minos was a son of Zeus, and the preservation on Crete of many tales and traditions of Zeus not known elsewhere, chiefly the belief that Zeus was not a god but a mortal. Yes the name is IE but it just means "the god", it's a title not a name.
https://cliojournal.wikispaces.com/Minoan+Religion+and+the+Ancient+Greeks
For Dionysos, he was also a son of Zeus, he married Ariadne the daughter of Minos and "mistress of the Labyrinth", and again there are many archaic traditions of Dionysos on Crete, where he is mostly known by the name Zagreus.
>>1210315
>Now the question is, on one of the most war filled and brutal centuries of human existence, how did the Minoan civilization mantained peace for atleast 2000 years?
Thalassokratia. By ruling the seas, they had no need for a warrior class. On Crete, the artist and the merchant held places of honor while warriors are either absent or marginalised, since there are no depictions of them in Minoan art and no Minoan weapons beyond a few late ceremonial objects that look like weapons but couldn't actually have been used as such.
>>1210337
>All later Greek accounts of Minoans/Crete also demonstrate good relations except for Thesus, which was itself an Athenian fabrication and what parts of the story are original folklore and what parts are propaganda we don't know
You do realise that the whole tale of the Minotaur is purely Athenian, right?
>>1210316
How did "place of axe" degenerate to "place where you get lost"? Was the minotaur in a temple or something in the original myth?
>>1210355
Except that didn't happen
>>1210356
I hope you are kidding, faggot.
Zeus, like most originally Greek gods, was merged with the gods of the local inhabitants. Zeus is undeniably Indo-European in origin.
Just look at Aphrodite and Hellen of Troy. Hellen is suspected to have been the Goddess of Love of the pre-Greek people of the Peloponnese, which is why she was given a prominent place in mythology.
The aspects of Zeus preserved on Crete are not indicative of Zeus' Minoan origins, but rather represent Minoan holdovers merged into the new, dominant Zeus cult (for lack of a better term).
>>1207605
I'll say it's worth it. Would you advocate for world-wide burqa so we don't have to look at the face of ugly and old women?
>>1210388
The Labyrinths (there were several) were probably a combination of temple, palace and granary. They had very complex floorplans, visitors would have found them very maze-like.
Also, the Labyrinth of the Minotaur myth was specially built by Daedalus, and featured walls that moved on their own so that whichever way you tried to go, you wound up back at the center.
>>1207621
If you mean the colors, actually classic greece was full of them too.
>>1210409
Zeus was "Hellenised" by the Greeks just like Aphrodite (another Cretan goddess) but even the Greeks claimed his cult came from Crete, as do all the myths concerning his childhood. Really of all the gods who you might suspect Minoan origins for, Zeus is the most clear-cut example. The fact that he became the chief god of the Iron Age Greeks says nothing, compare how Yahweh went from a minor Canaanite war deity to chief god of 2 billion Abrahamics.
>>1210421
Not during the Palatial period they didn't. It's more like the myth of Exodus, it recalls a time when Crete dominated the Agean and could demand tribute from the mainland, just as Exodus recalls the time when Egypt dominated the Levant.
>>1210421
IIRC we have no evidence of that, and in fact, most of the data from the time points against it.
>>1210423
You are taking an incredibly limited view on Greek religion and the deities therein.
All Greek gods represent a syncretism of the new, Indo-European Greek gods and traditions, with the older pre-Greek and Minoan gods and traditions.
That you think Zeus is Minoan because a handful of traditions were practices only on Crete is evidence of either your utter backwards analysis or trolling.
Also about the Zeus talk, IIRC, weren't almost all minoan deities female? I mean there seem to be little evidence of male gods in their society.
>>1210456
I'm talking about the origins of the deity. What his cult became is a different matter, but just as Attis sprang from Anatolia, so did Zeus from Crete.
>>1210460
It's not clear. The so-called "Snake Goddess" figurines could just as well represent priestesses, and the general lack of obviously religious imagery rather suggests they didn't think it a fit subject for depiction, so the fact that there are no images of male deities may not reflect actual beliefs. Certainly a great many female deities entered Greek mythology from Crete, foremost of them Artemis and Athena.
>>1210484
You're talking nonsense.
Minaon not-Zeus and Greek Zeus merged. Zeus didn't originate on Crete and most of his cult is non-Minoan in nature.
So how "matriarchal" they actually were? Less patriarchal than classic greeks is not really proof of a matriarchy or an equalist society, pretty much all ancient mediterranean cultures were less patriarchal than classic greeks.
>>1207273
How come all those archaeologists etc are too retarded to realise that the depictions etc probably only show the upper classes, priestesses etc? I seriously fucking doubt your average woman walked about with her tits out in elaborate, expensive tops
>>1210484
>athena
>Minoan
You're going to have to start citing your outrageous claims here, buddy.
>>1210514
Pretty sure the actual archeologists mostly believe that nowadays and it's fanboys reading outdated stuff who believe every single woman in Crete walked with her tits out all day everyday.
>>1210508
It appears that women had considerable power over religious and state affairs, a lot more than any society at the time.
If this truly marks them as "matriarchal" idk, but women definately held significant power on their society.
>>1210514
It is pretty well known that exposed titties were mostly present on the noble and priestly class.
>>1210514
They do realize that.
You have to understand that everything you read or hear about Minoan Crete, including speculation about gods, is essentially fantasy.
The only accounts of Crete we have at Greek, Minoans and Crete are only mentioned like 6 times in the Iliad and non is cultural information.
All of this cult/goddess stuff is derived from a few names that they assume are present in undeciphered linear A.
We know about burial, material culture, architecture, and can gleam a bit about the economy. Everything else is speculation.
>>1210525
>A-ta-na-po-ti-ni-ja (Mistress Athena) is referred to in the Knossos Linear B text V 2, cited by John Chadwick (Chadwick 1976; p. 88). (The full text refers to Athena, Enualios which is perhaps an early name for Ares, Paiawon which is perhaps an alternative name for Apollo,, and Poseidon.) This is the Mycenaean attempt to translate the name of the Minoan goddess, A-ta-no-dju-wa-ja. This name means Sun Goddess - the prefix atano is related to Luwian astanus = sun, and the final part is the Minoan spelling of what we know from Greek as Diwia (Mycenaean di-u-ja or di-wi-ja). The Mycenaeans even kept the Minoan word order at this early time; by the time of Homer, the name was Hellenized further, to Potni= Athenaie.
>>1210537
>citation needed
Seriously, what's with the boobs? Assuming that the pictures in this thread are at least partially accurate with regards to Minoan clothing, it seems like they were going out of their way to expose the boobs.
>>1210546
Boobs are good.
>>1210546
Probably some motiff associated with fertility or something.
Not all that unusual in many cultures even today.
>>1210540
Diwia is very close to dyeus, protogIndo-European form of Zeus.
Your own citation says Minoan form is derived from proto indo European luwian sun goddess.
Most indo European cultures had a sun goddess.
Greeks were indo european
>100% non Greek Minoan!
>>1210541
http://arthistoryresources.net/snakegoddess/minoanwomen.html
check the sauces if you feel like delving even deeper into this.
>>1210563
I mean indo european luwian not proto.
But anyways, you're arguing from a position which has no evidence except for 'possible' cognates of totally isolated words in an unreadable script.
>>1210563
I don't agree with my source's attempt to translate, it seems that if Minoan was some form of IE it would have been deciphered by now. My point was merely that Athena was a goddess taken over by the Acheans after they conquered Crete. And really, it's pretty hard to see any IE cognate for Athena beyond the use of her name by a Helladic polis.
>>1210573
>art history
No thanks buddy. Everytime I waste my time discussing classics with 'art history' majors, it turns into this. Contrarians arguing against convention and real evidence using assumptions.
>>1210249
somehow i feel like that table isn't going to help
>>1210581
So you have a context-absent appearance of her name, maybe, and are going to rally behind this as proof.
But when there are 2 indo european goddesses that are readily identifiable with Athena, what is that amazing coincidence?
You are stretching everything to reach conclusions that, in scholarship, are rejected at unsubstantable. Except your Zeus shit, that is just ignorance on your part.
>>1210607
Well if you don't accept Chadwick, the leading scholar on the topic, then I don't know what else to tell you. Athena is indisputably Cretan, go try and find an IE origin for her.
>>1210484
Zeus being raised on Crete in a story has nothing to do with him being a "Minoan deity".
>>1210620
On the contrary it has a great deal to do with it. Deities who are given foreign origins are very often foreign deities, and the myths of a god's origin generally coincides with the origin of that god's cult. So while it's not conclusive, it is very solid evidence.
>>1207362
WUZ
>>1210585
Again, check their sources, as Yiffy as art history majors are, these guys here atleast cite their sources and do their research.
>>1210630
No it isn't.
Zeus is plainly indo european and his Cretan origin is mostly likely the result of 1) syncretism with the major diety of the Greeks #1 subjects and a people they admired.
See. Zeus-ammon.
>>1210630
He was only born on Crete in the context of needing to be hidden in the narrative, that's not his origin by any means.
>origin of that god's cult
You're aware the Mycenaeans had established themselves on Crete for centuries before the collapse of the Bronze Age right? If a prominent Zeus cult developed on Crete, there is no reason to believe it was of Minoan origin and not simply a Mycenaean one.
>Deities who are given foreign origins are very often foreign deities
By the time of Hesiod, hell even Homer, Crete wasn't foreign by any means. It was as Greek as it gets. And when they do give foreign origin for deities, they do it in a very self-aware manner. There is no evidence of a Greek treating Zeus as if he's a foreign god, as they did, for example, with Dionysos.
>>1208078
>Atlantis
>>>/x/
>>1210630
You know absolutely nothing.
Zeus evolved out of the PIE sky-God Dyeus Piter. Cretan "Zeus" is due to interpretatio graeca, the same way they referred to the Egyptian deity Ammon as Ammon-Zeus.
>>1210616
That source says that Minoan Athena is derived from a luwian sun goddess.
Diwias has been proposed as cognate to PIE dyeus. Balts and celts had sun goddesses.
That's 2 proposed connections of 'Minoan athena' to Indo-European roots, with 2 counter part goddesses in distant Indo-European cultures.
Try harder to make my case for me.
>>1210650
1- again, cultural significance, probably something related to fertility and whatnot, they likely didn't view breasts as sexual like we do. In fact, many cultures alive today don't, just look at the Masaai
2- Minoan crete existed for millenia before athens, they were the first civilization on europe period, and one of the most advanced civilizations of ancient history, with many technological feats of architecture and art, such as baths, urbanism, indoor plumbing, you name it, they were essentially europe's civilizational powerhouse at the time.
>>1210701
You're as bad as 'every God is Minoan' guy. Worse, even, because you must know you're wrong and are just trolling. Fuck off.
>>1207273
how likely is it that their boobs actually looked that nice?
I want to FUCK a qt 3.14 in that dress
>>1210717
Aww, what's wrong? Does it hurt your feewings to know your precious Minoans are filthy non hellenistic barbarian scum?
>>1210650
I don't get why this seems impossible to you guys.
Women dressed like that too in some central regions of Sardinia untill a few centuries ago, Dante condemned the practice in the Divine comedy, and they did since ancient times as depicted in many bronze staruettes
>>1210723
I think it's highly likely since ancient peoples discarded invalid, ugly and fat people upon birth.
>>1210770
You think ancient people could predict how the babies would developed their boobs?
>>1210741
Define "barbarian".
By whatever way you define it, the minoans were definitely not fitting of that term. they didn't only had cities, they were more technologically advanced than pretty much anybody around during the time period. Heck they were more advanced than the people who came AFTER them in many aspects.
>>1210701
1-How the fuck can they be wrong? I mean, how can one even apply wrong or right to such context
2- see previous point..
>>1207334
even though their stylized human representations are similar to egypt and the middle east, i prefer the minoan colour palette and designs. less "let's lick the arse of our king" and more "dude mediterranean lifestyle lmao"
>>1210834
Gotta say, most minoan palaces/architecture/city look insanely comfy.
>>1210828
>Define "barbarian".
Filthy uncivilized swine who's culture is non-hellenistic
>How the fuck can they be wrong?
Human breasts are sexual organs, they have such great size so the cleavage can resemble a female asscrack.
This is what causes arousal.
>>1210854
Sometimes I wish I could travel back in time to know these places. Many people's fantasies are futuristic, mine are /his/torical.
>>1210857
1- That's exactly what the Mycaeneans and Minoans thought of the Dorian greeks, whom at the time, weren't much more than "Barbarians" in their eyes. So to them, your greeks are the uncivilized swine.
2- "Sexual" or not is a cultural thing, different cultures have different standards about what constitutes sexuality, many tribes of africa and south america walk around breasts exposed, it's just that to them there's no shame attached to some constructed sexual meaning of those body parts. So if something is "Perverted" or "sexual" or not is entirely subjective and depends on culture.
>>1210828
Do you really have to respond to an obvious shiposter?
Just hide and move on.
>>1210869
I feel you bro, that feel when you'll never stroll around Knossos tasting the best cretan wine looking at the gleaming sunset melting at the horizon as the boats return from the sea... God, why live?
>>1210883
>That's exactly what the Mycaeneans and Minoans thought of the Dorian greeks, whom at the time, weren't much more than "Barbarians" in their eyes. So to them, your greeks are the uncivilized swine.
Go back to plebbit you cultural relativist
>2- "Sexual" or not is a cultural thing, different cultures have different standards about what constitutes sexuality, many tribes of africa and south america walk around breasts exposed, it's just that to them there's no shame attached to some constructed sexual meaning of those body parts. So if something is "Perverted" or "sexual" or not is entirely subjective and depends on culture.
I-ITS JUST A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT
>>>/out/
>>1210883
Dorians don't entire into the historical record until the archaic, and mycenaeans were Greek.
Epirotes and Macedonians were Dorians who didn't move South at the end of the bronze age, though, and they were considered barbarians at first.
>>1210834
>can't appreciate the glory of the king
wew lad
This is a straight up Super Mario World dolphin.
>>1207355
You're wrong my friend. The Minoans were aryan and the name of the legendary king Minos actually refers to Manu/Mannus, the progenitor of the Aryan race, as per Germanic and Indo-Aryan traditions:
>Some scholars see a connection between Minos and the names of other ancient founder-kings, such as Menes of Egypt, Mannus of Germany, and Manu of India,[10][11
>In ancient lays, their only type of historical tradition, they celebrate Tuisto, a god brought forth from the earth. They attribute to him a son, Mannus, the source and founder of their people,
>In Hindu tradition, Manu is the name accorded to the progenitor of humanity, who appears in the world at the start of a new kalpa (aeon), after universal destruction. According to the Puranas, 14 Manus appear in each kalpa. The period of each Manu is called Manvantara.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannus
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_(Hinduism)
>>1210992
>Le meme shit posting
Please go back to /b/
>>1210956
Their octopi are straight up anime tier though.
>>1210883
Are you saying mycenaeans were not Greeks???
>>1211052
hmmm
>>1211056
No, i'm just saying that they would've considered the Dorians to be filthy savages.
Though my comment was apparently anachronistic, as anon a few posts ago pointed out.
point still stands though.
>>1209827
Sad, we will not see Minoan titties in animation
>Όλα αυτά φιλοβαρβάρος
>>1211119
Retarded Greek cuck end your life, Cretese people are and always were superior.
>>1211115
Animaymay autism aside, i'm sad they don't get any love in popular culture.
>>1210956
Is that cacti or anemones?
>>1211131
Sea Urchins in fact.
>>1210747
Do you have examples of statuettes? Was this still around in the late middle ages?
>>1211153
>Do you have examples of statuettes?
Yes, pic related, but can't find a decent picture of them.
>Was this still around in the late middle ages?
Yes, Dante condemned them for this, here'w what a Gesuit priest said in the 19th century :
"The women of the island, in the incredible variety of fashions of their investments, in this only agree: to have all the open breast. And they chiudan life in imbusti, or tie, or serrine of any shape they may be, they all have the shot very wide, so the breast forms appear under the fine and white shirts. "
>>1211267
A hypothetical reconstruction of the dress
>>1211284
>Ywn be a moorish lord invading sardinia and taking for yourself a harem of those qts...
>>1211284
Interesting, had no idea they had fashion like this. Is this hypothetical ancient or more along the times of 19th century?
>>1211331
1100-700 bc
>>1207396
The Minoans used steam, they had indoor plumbing, they were millenia ahead of their time
fag
>>1211416
Don't respond to the shitposters, it apparently only makes them worse,
Back into the discussion, any good history books around about the Minoans?
>>1211416
>used steam
What games were there at the time?
>>1211416
It's a common motif of their culture, males are depicted with bronze skin while females are depicted with white skin for some reason.
>>1211442
>for some reason
Look at the eyes and the stiff poses. Minoan art was heavily inspired by Egypt.
>>1211442
Its the same deal with the Egyptians and Etruscans. Its because women laid around in the shade all day while men worked and got tans.
>>1211442
Egyptian canon.
Or at least inspired by it, if not following it. I haven't taken a ruler to any Minoan frescos..
But look at this >>1211431
>Stiff pose
>Copy-pasted proportions
The pose and replicated proportions across each figure are cut right out of Egyptian art.
>Those skirts
The skirts shape (on the men) is almost identical to ones sported by Egyptians
Those skin tones
>Egyptians also depicted men as dark and women as light, because 99% of men (everyone but bureaucrats, artisans, and priests) worked in the sun as farmers, quarriers, fishermen, builders. Meanwhile women prepared food, made linen, raised children.
I think there are even references to the different skin tones of men and women in classical Greek literature.
>That pose by the woman
One word: Ankh
Arms raised over head (by the king) = Ankh
Ankh is a symbol of victory and royalty in Egyptian art. Who knows what it symbolizes in Minoan art, but the similarity is there.
>>1210316
So what were they bureaucrat-priestesses? It makes sense, women are very good at organizing things.
>>1211570
More likely the cult of a law deity, perhaps inspired by the Egyptian cult of Ma'at.
>>1211570
He is speaking out his as about etymologies of words he can not verify existed, using a myth that was manufactured as propaganda in the 6th century BC and has never been found to be told elsewhere in any form.
We don't know anything about the Minoans except for their material culture and what little can be gleamed of it from Greek life on the island after 900BC.
>>1210421
>>1210441
>>1210427
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_religion#Possibility_of_human_sacrifice
Seems like a lot more evidence for human sacrifice than against it.
Nothing in that section provides a good refutation. And whenever researches refuse to publish their findings, it means they disagree with them personally.
>>1211719
> "Not all agree that this was human sacrifice. Nanno Marinatos says the man supposedly sacrificed died in the earthquake that hit at the time he died. She notes that this earthquake destroyed the building, and killed the two Minoans who supposedly sacrificed him. She also argues that the building was not a temple and that the evidence for sacrifice "is far from ... conclusive."[10] Dennis Hughes concurs and argues that the platform where the man lay was not necessarily an altar, and the blade was probably a spearhead that may not have been placed on the young man, but could have fallen during the earthquake from shelves or an upper floor.[11]
At the sanctuary-complex of Fournou Korifi, fragments of a human skull were found in the same room as a small hearth, cooking-hole, and cooking-equipment. This skull has been interpreted as the remains of a sacrificed victim.[12]
In the "North House" at Knossos, the bones of at least four children (who had been in good health) were found which bore signs that "they were butchered in the same way the Minoans slaughtered their sheep and goats, suggesting that they had been sacrificed and eaten. The senior Cretan archaeologist Nicolas Platon was so horrified at this suggestion that he insisted the bones must be those of apes, not humans."[13]
The bones, found by Peter Warren, date to Late Minoan IB (1580-1490), before the Myceneans arrived (in LM IIIA, c. 1320-1200) according to Paul Rehak and John G. Younger.[14] Dennis Hughes and Rodney Castleden argue that these bones were deposited as a 'secondary burial'.[15] Secondary burial is the not-uncommon practice of burying the dead twice: immediately following death, and then again after the flesh is gone from the skeleton. The main weakness of this argument is that it does not explain the type of cuts and knife marks upon the bones."
The evidence is far from conclusive.
I'm not denying it may have happened, i'm just saying we don't really have evidence it did.
>>1211589
>The Linear B (Mycenaean) inscription
>>1211764
>the dagger that i've never seen in person is probably a spear head that fell from on high. the only spear head in the room above this one, in fact
Sure
>being so outraged by something you have to deny the anatomy of the remains to comfort yourself
Why not, you know, just dispute the sacrificial aspect of the scene?
>theory that actually contradicts evidence on the bones
heuheuehueheuheu
>>1211800
Hey that was not me saying, it was the quote.
I didn't deny there could've been sacrifice, i just said we didn't know.
>>1210537
Clearly relative to Georgian women.
>>1212105
>>1212107
>>1210296
Don't forget that a lot of the women will die giving birth, so there would be a lot more 16 yr olds walking around than old ladies woth stretched out bodies.
![ancient-aegean-art-3-638[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/863JuNa.jpg "ancient-aegean-art-3-638[1].jpg")
>>1210323
>bare-bones, salt of the earth people
They seem to have invented the practice of carving life-sized human figures out of solid marble blocks, introducing perhaps the most famous form of Greek art.
>>1212412
They're easily more comparable than even modern Cretans, Circassian Adyghe and North Ossetians overlap too.
>>1212473
They were dwarf sized at best
>>1207355
Woah, settle down there Conan. Civilization is the reason you're able to shitpost here in the first place.
>>1212412
This meme went too far.
>>1212473
Fampai, those statues are typically the size of action figures.
Nevertheless, there's definitely a sense of pathos to their sculpture that could very well have trickled down to the Geometric period of Greek art.
>>1212480
Except DNA analysis of Minoan corpses show they are more related to modern day cretans than to any other ethnic group...
Any traces of monotheism on the part of the Minoans?
I wished they had survived, conquered greece and been a major world power transmitting their culture so that women today would walk around with their tits exposed. fucking hell that would be so hot.
>>1210992
I'm so confused. Are Aryans Neolithic farmers or Yamnaya steppe nomads? Or both?
What
>>1212659
No, atleast not that we know of, from the little we have on them they definitely had multiple gods.
>>1212659
No one had monotheism in 1500 BCE.
>>1212669
Why would one thing imply the other? Greece and Rome were dominant and yet men nowadays don't wear skirts and sandals.
>>1212627
>muh small percentage of the specific subclade found in ancient samples
Which amounts to diddly squat in the world of observable reality.
People of the Caucasus are much closer in language and appearance to ancient pre Indo-European peoples, not to mention that Italians and Greeks were Semiticized in the middle ages.
>>1209827
well it's hard to tell your story with no bards. I bet they had some mighty fine bards that we'll never know of.
>>1212800
My hope would be that Minoan culture would be STRONK enough so that titties in public would remain dominant culture. Probably not likely, but it would be amazing.
>>1212924
Sure
>>1212888
Caucasus have nothing to do with anything.
There were Afro-asiatic, semitic, IE, Basque, and Tyrrhenian speakers in the Mediterranean region for thousands of years before the first 'possible' Caucasus related groups appear in the historical record.
Caucas languages are also unrelated to any of the above, except for a few loan words for agriculture which evidently spread to the PIE homeland via the Caucasus from the near east.
>>1212924
No. Caucasus are haplogroups G and J, Minoans were I, E and J.
Georgians just trying to get on the WE WUZ bandwagon.
>>1212929
I say we bring the fashion back. We already got the free nipple and other topless movements, feminists and sjws eager to show tits. We just need to guide them to adopt a good style like this.
>>1211267
Dante sounds like a virgin betacuck. I bet he's just mad cos he got no pussy when he visited.
>>1212964
>Tyrrhenian
>not descended from cultures of the neolithic.
Yes you did.
>>1213005
I am sorry
What culture is not descendant from some neolithic precursor? Were Semitic and Afro-Asiatic culture descendant from neolithic Georgian culture, too?
Tyrrhenian languages are VERY far away from the Caucasus, and share no linguistic relationship.
So yeah, Tyrrhenian language-speaking cultures were 'native' in some way to the region of Italy and possibly the Aegean, but no connection has been demonstrated to Kartvelian.
>>1213010
Except autosomal map disagrees
>The Caucasian admixture was probably brought to Europe by various West Asian people during the Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#Neolithic_farmers
>>1213027
What does that have to do with the assertion that languages family and associated culture are related, when no evidence suggests so?
Caucasus DNA travelled with the spread of agriculture into Southern Europe. J2 is found in the Caucasus as well as literally all of the Near East.
There is nothing to support your claim that Minoan and Tyrrhenian populations were related to one of the most isolated groups in history.
>>1213027
I will also note that Caucasus DNA is present in limited amounts Yamna culture remains, which also spread into Europe during the neolithic and bronze ages.
Genetics don't prove cultural or linguistic affiliations, and I & E are much older in Europe than the Neolithic.
>>1213010
These are modern Cretans, they look more like members of the Free Syrian Army.
>>1213052
It proves more than a few attempts at conclusively proving a linguistic theory does.
The complex nature of these language isolates makes it much more difficult to connect languages that of thousands of years apart, not not mention the lack of attestation.
Pre Indo-European civilizations (except for Iberians) did not descend from hunter gatherers but from haplogroup G carrying neolithic farmers.
>>1212525
No, the geometric style was 2400 years later and largely influenced by Egypt and the Levant.
>>1212888
They were neolithic farmers, which lack almost completely the Caucasus hunter gatherer component, which obviously modern Georgians have in abundance.
>>1210514
That top image is pretty clearly a palace scene. You're right about the second one, the women on foot should probably have a much simpler cut and less brightly coloured cloth
>>1213564
Caucasian admixture and neolithic farmer admixture is way more prevalent in the Mediterranean than hunter gather genes are in the Caucasus.
>>1213027
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#Ancient_North_Eurasians
>>1210514
Going topless was probably pretty common since the stone age and some people in the bronze age are likely to have preserved that custom.
>>1211436
HALF LIFE .03
>>1213762
What culture is this in the pic?
>>1214798
Cycladean.
what other interesting obscure-ish ancient cultures are there worth reading about?
>>1214829
You know the answer
>>1213556
Geometric wasn't influenced by Egypt or the Levant, that was the Orientalizing period. We don't see eastern motifs in the Geometric until its very late phase. Geometric was a direct successor and downgrade to Mycenaean art.
>>1213762
am i kawaii uguu~
>>1214837
What is the relationship between the Minoans and the Nuragics?
>>1214860
Someone needs to put animu faces on these Cycladic statues
>>1214865
The pre-Nuragic probably were influenced by the Cicladeans.
Scholars consider this type of pottery as new to the Neolithic Sardinia and until then similar artifacts were considered as typical of the Cyclades islands and Crete. As a result of significant trade with those distant islands, new manufacturing techniques, new knowledge in metallurgy and new lifestyles appeared in Sardinia. These findings demonstrated unequivocally the strong cultural and commercial exchange elapsed between the Sardinians pre-nuragic peoples and Neolithic Greece.[11]
I don't know if there was any relationship between the early bronze age Minoans and the Nuragics, but there certainly was one between the Nuragics and the people of Crete during the Mycenean period, since a considerable amount of Nuragic pottery was found in Kommos in Crete, this type of pottery wasn't a refined luxury but the testimony of Nuragic presence on the island.
Afar women would traditionally go topless until a stricter form of Islam started to spread around 15 years ago.
>>1210484
Zeus is indo-European as fuck you sperg.
I wonder if we will ever see a manga like otoyomegatari on the Minoans. Seeing bull leaping in comic form would be interesting.
>>1214816
What wrong with Eupedia?
>>1220206
>What wrong with Eupedia?
reddit tier webpage for genetics it's inaccurate has wrong definitions and names, also maps are inaccurate too
>>1220225
Also the owner and editor of the website Maciamo is literally a shitposter who has no idea what he's talking about in forums.
>>1218578
iz dat sum Kangz in the background?
>>1220236
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/bio/hay/
>Shitposter
But the dude is literally a researcher who has experience.
>>1220447
He's also accomplished as fuck compared to your average 4chinner.
The problem is that retards like those in this thread don't know how to interpret the maps or data.
pretty good
>>1207399
>Despite lack of written sources, could their language be Indo-European?
Probably not.
Assuming Linear B accurately represents the sounds of the Linear A to a reasonable degree, which would probably be the case, transliterating the Linear A results in gibberish.
The Minoans were ruled by a king, right?
Also, who here has played Age of Empires 1?
>everythin that made them such an interesting and fascinating people.
It's mostly the tits.
>>1223551
I "think" (don't beat me up) Linear B is IE written in a script of a dialect preexisting IE in the northern Med. I think Linear A is script in a dialect related to Lemnian and Rhaetic. I see it in the same manner as "Hittite cuneiform", which is IE in Semitic cuneiform script.
>>1223600
Linear B is Greek written in the syllabic script borrowed from the Minoans, which is why the Greek words look like someone transliterating English into Japanese.
No one knows what the Cretan Language is or what Linear A encodes, thus the mystery. All the theories of it being related to Etruscan and the rest are just hypotheses.
Best bet would be identifying the most likely related population via examination if religious evidence.
So what theonyms exist in Linear A. How are those gods represented in Greek religion and mythology. Are there other examples of these gods,how are they represented in those cultures. What sort of Cretan-specific rituals existed. Are there comparable rituals elsewhere.
Also, non Greek phonemes / morphemes present in luwian are found in Minoan. So how often do they occur? Do they originate with Minoan or are they just regional substratum common to all three languages?
They were pretty interesting, new research connects them to Etruscans in terms of language or genes, I forgot. Previously they were connected to Anatolian groups, but that turned out to be false. They were far from some powerful civilization like Egypt they traded with, but despite their small size, such good organization to the point of developing linear A, art, architecture and trade routes is admirable. Kings of Keftiu (Minoan people) that were mentioned in the Egyptian texts and the Bible (as Caphtorites) were important figures on the Mediterranean trade scene, along with Egyptian pharaohs as the most important figures of the known world, the kings of Cyprus and Phoenicia. The world was pretty developed and connected in pre-dark ages, civilizations spanning from Crete to Babylonia and Ethiopia. Although afaik everything peaked sometimes around Amarna period during the rule of based Amenhotep IV and Nefertiti, by that time Mycenaeans took over Crete.
I have a shitton of questions and am a little confused and would like someone to help me out.
1) Can anyone tell me about dorians and the mycenaeans and any differences they may have had in skin color and general physical appearance?
2) I thought the dorian invasion as an actual migration is not really conclusive as a theory?
3) Were the mycenaeans indo europeans?
4) Since all the indo europeans, assuming the theory is true, originated from the same place in the pontic steppe, spreading to greece as well as central europe, does this mean all the physical appearance changes that are observable today in central europe compared to italy and greece occured in less than ten thousand years? Is this enough time for genetic changes like that to occur?
5) How did the mycaneans deal with the indigenous people of greece? Did they assimilate them or kill them?
I would really really love it if someone could provide me with some information. Not trying to do /pol/shit, just want quench some questions.
>>1225805
>1) Can anyone tell me about dorians and the mycenaeans and any differences they may have had in skin color and general physical appearance?
Did you mean differences between Dorians and so called Minoans? Dorians were one of four Hellenic groups, they eventually settled on Crete, so basically we can call them early Greeks or Mycaeneans. They were Indo-Europeans. Their language was form of early Greek language. They arrived when Minoans inhabited Crete, but the exact nature of their relationship is unknown. Assimilation, conquest (no evidence), simply development of new ethnic throughout time?
>2) I thought the dorian invasion as an actual migration is not really conclusive as a theory?
There is no evidence of invasion.
>3) Were the mycenaeans indo europeans?
Yes.
>4) Since all the indo europeans, assuming the theory is true, originated from the same place in the pontic steppe, spreading to greece as well as central europe, does this mean all the physical appearance changes that are observable today in central europe compared to italy and greece occured in less than ten thousand years? Is this enough time for genetic changes like that to occur?
Of course. Well, those are all changes within one (white) race. Minoans were white, as recent research suggested and certain areas on Europe still carry their genome. For such changes to occur, even several centuries is enough. Take for example Croatians, who have blondes in their area from time immemorial when such people inhabited those areas, they have Illyric people genes, Mediterranean type ex-Romans/Greeks with olive skins and Slavic features in the northeastern part. Or Portuguese, about half of them have subsaharan genome because their ancestors in medieval age accepted blacks as citizens and intermarried with them.
>5) How did the mycaneans deal with the indigenous people of greece? Did they assimilate them or kill them?
This is unknown afaik. There is no evidence they killed them.
>>1225711
>They were pretty interesting, new research connects them to Etruscans in terms of language or genes,
No, not really.
>>1226150
Yes, really. Get outta here troll
>>1225893
You have cleared a lot of things up, my thanks.
When I meant physical changes I assume something like, Greece and Italy are sunny countries so it makes sense for those people to evolve to be more olive skinned, keyword evolved, compared to say the Celts in today's France, who evolved differently. You seem to be talking of the appearance of modern countries citizens based on mixing of people with different genes to begin with (slavic with mediterranean etc). This doesn't answer the question of: Is the amount of time since the indoeuropean's settlement in distinct locations till today enough for them to *evolve* into their different physical appearances we see today, that aren't accounted for by "race"-mixing. As well as in their common ancestor in the Pontic Steppes were these differences absent, and they were more similar since they haven't evolved divergently yet?
As for your answer to 4), it seems to me like you took the changes in appearance I mentioned to boil down to
>>1226172
Ignored the last sentence, editing mistake.
>>1226167
No, why does anyone that disagrees with you have to be a troll?
What a retarded behaviour, fuck off.
There's no particular study linking them to the Etruscans genetically, linguistically there ahve been some minor studies but they were not conclusive in anyway.
>>1225805
>4) Since all the indo europeans, assuming the theory is true, originated from the same place in the pontic steppe, spreading to greece as well as central europe, does this mean all the physical appearance changes that are observable today in central europe compared to italy and greece occured in less than ten thousand years? Is this enough time for genetic changes like that to occur?
Europeans are only partly descended from Indo-Europeans. I think some of the physical variation can be explained by the different ratios of Indo-European, Neolithic and Paleo/Mesolithic admixture throughout Europe.
>>1226211
I found this as well
>Research by Nina Jablonski suggests that an estimated time of about 10,000 to 20,000 years is enough for human populations to achieve optimal skin pigmentation in a particular geographic area but that development of ideal skin coloration may happen faster if the evolutionary pressure is stronger, even in as little as 100 generations.[5] The length of time is also affected by cultural practices such as food intake, clothing, body coverings, and shelter usage which can alter the ways in which the environment affects populations.[7]
I am pretty satisfied at this point
