I often in conversations of a theological bent bring up the Sentinelese and other as-yet Uncontacted Tribal Peoples who are totally oblivious to the spiritual demands of any of the major faiths, Abrahamic or otherwise.
For these people, sudden cultural contact would probably mean death by disease. We have tons of diseases we've become immune to that were initially brought about by agriculture and industrialism. These diseases would kill the uncontacted peoples faster than the process of indoctrination could take hold.
Bringing this up, I end up in a debate resembling pic related, but the answers are never satisfying, being usually of a Determinist, Calvinist bent (only The Elect go to Heaven) or of a racist bent (They aren't really human so salvation doesn't matter for them.).
Do you guys have more sophisticated answers. I know people on 4chan /his/ are expert theologians. Let's see what you can cook up.
>>1202547
The person that doesn't know Christ (never heard of him) would go to Limbo, because he was ignorant of Christ word. Because he's ignorant of it, he wouldn't know what sin is, if someone told him about it, I think it would be mighty damn good time to convert. All you have to do is be a good person if you're ignorant or a dead infant to make it to limbo.
*tips fedora*
>>1202562
What of the ones who are contacted by Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. first, but never get the Skinny on Yeshua?
>>1202572
Hell
Literally all the evidence is clear that Jesus was the son of God and anyone who does not believe will suffer in hell for eternity
Not wanting to know and not spreading his words are acts of sin, perhaps? I don't know, but that's possible reasoning that could be used pretty easily, even out your ass.
The Mormons were pretty good about the whole heaven/hell thing, dropping that was a good idea for making their religion popular. Pretty much all they have to do is stop hating gays and then clean up a bit of the racism in the corners and they'll be good for at least a couple more centuries. But yeah, heaven and hell concepts are very easy points of logical attack with christianity, so obvious that children point out the lack of logic when asking questions to their parents about this kind of stuff, it's just better to do away with the concept altogether. Shit's gotta change with the times to survive, I mean look at the new diet vanilla pope.
>>1202572
Then it's Hell.
>>1202562
Also, can I get a source for The Church saying this at any point before 1492?
(not that the church necessarily reflects what Christ or God think, but it would be good to know whether this is actually the church's answer.)
>>1202579
> Literally all the evidence is clear
Literally all the evidence is clear that statements that start with "Literally all the evidence is clear " are conjecture.
...
Damn, hornswoggled myself again!
>>1202618
>Also, can I get a source for The Church saying this at any point before 1492?
Anon, you know the Church likes doing flippy shit to fit the need of the situation, it's flexible.
>>1202625
If he's not ignorant of the outside world, then he should know sin. If he's ignorant of the outside world, ignorant of sin, then he goes to limbo.
>>1202547
>I know people on 4chan /his/ are expert theologians.
>People on 4chan
>Experts in anything but shitposting and arguing
>>1202659
Clearly my tongue was impaling my cheek and wiggling around outside the hole when I said that.
>>1202641
So which is it that determines salvation?
Knowledge of Christ or knowledge of sin?
Moreover, what is limbo exactly? Nothingness? Reincarnation into new life forms until you accept Christ? Why does this still sound like a deterministic "Only The Elect" argument?
If something as arbitrary as location can determine salvation, then isn't that a flaw in the means by which humans are supposed to receive God's knowledge?
>>1202680
>Knowledge of Christ or knowledge of sin?
If he knows Christ he should know sin.
>Moreover, what is limbo exactly?
Basically Heaven-lite, the closet a person ignorant of God or a dead infant who wasn't baptized can go to but isn't with God per-say.
>If something as arbitrary as location can determine salvation
I literally just told you, know Christ, know sin. If you don't know Christ, and is ignorant based on where you are located, then they shouldn't be punished, granted they should be a good person, but still.
>>1202572
>>1202585
Hold on, just because the wrong messenger got to them first?
Wouldn't Muslims/Jews say the same thing?
How can an intelligence utterly unacquainted with these cultures be expected to make an informed choice?
>>1202701
>Hold on, just because the wrong messenger got to them first?
If they got contact from the outside world, I'm expecting them to see Christ.
>>1202670
I had a feeling it was tongue and cheek, but sometimes on this site you never fucking know.
On topic though, I would just leave them alone. Let them be happy with whatever makes them happy, so long as they're not a bunch of degenerates (like human sacrifice, pedophilia, and other things that are frowned upon in society). If they're degenerates, then they deserve the same fate as the Aztecs and Mayans.
>>1202705
What incentive would a non-Christian civilization contacting tribal peoples have in bringing them Christ mythology?
>>1202711
>What incentive would a non-Christian civilization contacting tribal peoples have in bringing them Christ mythology?
I don't know, do I look like a missionary to you?
Why couldn't God just avoid all the drama and forgive people on a case by case basis?
I mean I love my kids and will punish them if need be, but torturing them for eternity seems a bit extreme. And if one ran away from home to be rid of me I'd take them back if they're honestly sorry. That's just good parenting.
>>1202713
It's not as effective at controlling people if it were like that though.
>>1202713
Because the doctrines of heaven and hell are just there to safeguard and ensure faith.
They are less direct communications from God and more desparate human-herding ideological tricks by those who would indoctrinate and spread dogma for this-or-that faith..
>>1202713
>Why couldn't God just avoid all the drama and forgive people on a case by case basis?
Because that negates following God.
>>1202725
And why does God want or need to be followed?
Surely his existence is independent of our belief, and our moral decisions are independent of our belief.
As an analogy, if I made a movie I wouldn't care whether the audience knew who directed it, I would just care whether they bought a ticket and paid attention to what the story was about.
>>1202736
>And why does God want or need to be followed?
So you can be fucking saved you idiot.
>I would just care whether they bought a ticket and paid attention to what the story was about.
Then it's a shit analogy.
>>1202712
No. I was asking because you implied (>>1202705) that as soon as an uncontacted tribe receives contact, BAM. CHRIST.
Which my question framed a situation where that wouldn't necessarily be the case.
I actually know a missionary. She doesn't think very hard about these things.
>>1202750
>that as soon as an uncontacted tribe receives contact, BAM. CHRIST.
Well sense it's documented, the Church should send a missionary to convert the people.
>She doesn't think very hard about these things.
>She
>>1202741
Why is following him his criteria for being saved?
>>1202562
Limbo is officially rejected by Catholicism now.
It was no part of Orthodoxy or Protestantism.
The simple fact is by Christians own logic if the religion never spread itself and died out everyone would go to heaven.
>>1202754
Not sure if you're implying that "women r dum" or that missionaries can't be women.
If it's the second case I mean specifically woman, not an ordained priest, who goes on Christian missions in third world countries providing food and bibles and stuff to peeps.
She doesn't look too hard into the ideological end of things. She's all about good works.
>>1202725
I don't need anyone to follow me
If you love someone you want to ensure they're happy and safe, not dominate them or make them kiss your feet
God thinks like a person, right? Wouldn't he prefer to have friends and family rather than groveling servants?
>>1202757
>The simple fact is by Christians own logic if the religion never spread itself and died out everyone would go to heaven.
Woah, maaaaan.
>>1202741
Why doesn't God just say "apology accepted" and be done? He knows if you're lying
The doctrine of "anonymous Christian" is a Vatican II thing, it doesn't exist in Orthodoxy. We don't know whether or not the Eskimo will go to hell if he doesn't know. We don't know whether or not he would go to hell if he does know.
>>1202763
u dont understaaaaaaaaaaand bro
but its okay because we do
(insert appeal to cultural authority)
>>1202775
Don't know what?
>>1202770
I like this because it's honest and doesn't claim knowledge only God could have.
I dig it
>>1202775
>he wanted an answer
"I don't know" is an answer. It's also a very honest one, and it's where the pursuit of knowledge begins.
>>1202775
>Orthodoxy doesn't give answers
Correct, unless Christ himself passed on something directly to the Apostles, the Church cannot espouse it as theology.
>>1202547
That even though God exists, your beliefs are not a sin, unless those beliefs are pagan. By pagan, I mean, believing your actions in life can anger or please gods/nature. A rain dance won't make it rain, and letting people believe in such things is detrimental to society as a whole.
>>1202763
>If you love someone you want to ensure they're happy and safe
Think of it like a parent, if your good, you get thing, if you aren't you don't. If you blow him off, you get written off of there will and would be look down upon
>>1202792
I don't know isn't an answer, it doesn't bring any closure.
Think about it like this
God is the president
You're the average citizen
If you bump into him and smear ice cream on his suit you deserve to go to prison no matter how "sorry" you are as you're dragged away
If you bump into the average guy and smear ice cream on his shirt it's nowhere near as big of a deal
>>1202797
>Correct, unless Christ himself passed on something directly to the Apostles, the Church cannot espouse it as theology.
Thank God for Apostolic Succession huh :^)
>>1202802
U wot m8?
That's downright evil
>>1202815
>That's downright evil
Evil is a spook.
>>1202811
Apostolic succession is strictly concerned with preserving Christ's teachings, not with adding to them.
>>1202701
>Wouldn't Muslims/Jews say the same thing?
Muslims are all over the place, until the fall of the Ottoman empire basically, when Saudi influence began to take control. But even now, among the intellectuals even in places like Saudi Arabia, this is being debated. This has also been debated throughout all Muslim history.
But personally, I think Islamically, as long as you continue to search for the truth, it's not a sin. Even if you go your whole life not believing in God, as long as you are open to the concept and search to the best of your ability, with an open mind, it's a non-issue.
Your destiny in the afterlife is more about your actions in life, not your beliefs.
>>1202821
>Apostolic succession is strictly concerned with preserving Christ's teachings, not with adding to them.
In the Orthodox Church, yes. We aren't talking about the Orthodox Church. We aren't talking about the Church that confides itself with mostly slavs.
>>1202808
>If you bump into him and smear ice cream on his suit you deserve to go to prison no matter how "sorry" you are as you're dragged away
Sounds awfully petty and human for an entity with boundless love, wisdom, and empathy, who knew about my gaffe an infinite amount of time before it happened.
>>1202821
"Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven".
>>1202831
It's also the dominant Christianity of Greece and the Middle East, and the Antiochian Church in the West is mostly not Arab
>>1202835
>It's also the dominant Christianity of Greece and the Middle East, and the Antiochian Church in the West is mostly not Arab
And that's it.
>>1202808
So...might makes right?
If someone is of higher power or status then you it's okay to be punished more severely?
If you made a clone from human DNA it'd be okay to torture it forever because it's your "creation"?
>>1202802
An answer doesn't have to bring closure.
An answer is merely you telling me what you think.
None of the other answers in the thread brought closure either. "I don't know" opens up zero new questions.
The other answers opened up plenty of new questions, and so actually moved away from closure rather than just remaining stationary.
>>1202845
>The other answers opened up plenty of new questions, and so actually moved away from closure rather than just remaining stationary.
Would you rather be stagnate or would you rather be restless and learn?
>>1202833
God is all wise, benevolent, loving, compassionate, and merciful
That's why he rids the world of sinners by letting them into the eternal darkness, misery, and flame of hell
If you told a neighbor to come to your house to avoid a ravenous pack of wolves and they said no "lol what are wolves doing in suburbia?" why would you even open it back up no matter how hard they begged you?
>>1202854
Of course the latter, I'm just saying it's good to hear a religious person say "I don't know" instead of engaging in these acrobatic apologetics where appeals to dubious and varied authorities are constantly used.
>>1202834
That has to do with absolution and excommunication, not with adding to the knowledge imparted by Christ.
>>1202838
And we didn't convert by the sword.
>>1202859
Breaks my heart to hear this:
>That's why he rids the world of sinners by letting them into the eternal darkness, misery, and flame of hell
These are people, we're talking about, not weeds in a Garden.
God created these people himself.
Pic related, it's my difficulty with faith. I try to get closer through understanding, but it seems to move further with every "answer" I get.
Those who die without baptism or knowledge of God go to Limbo, it is far better than Hell and far worse than Heaven.
According to the book of Revelation an army of repentant sinners and non-believers will accept Jesus (while still alive) and go to heaven after the final battle & theme music power up
Why can they get to see blatant proof of the supernatural and be saved yet nobody else can?
>>1202878
I meant without baptism if they're babies.
>>1202878
Sounds like Samsara
>>1202877
Consider the Orthodox understanding of hell, it's a lot different
>>1202547
If he didn't get told about christianity, he would have witnessed it.
>>1202867
>acrobatic apologetics where appeals to dubious and varied authorities are constantly used.
But that's how you learn. I don't know cuts it short.
>>1202877
Hell is only just the absent of God. Take that what you will because that's all I have to say about it.
>>1202871
And that's why Byzantium fell. Wow, maybe using the sword to spread Christ word is really efficient, who'd a thunk?
>>1202900
>And that's why Byzantium fell. Wow, maybe using the sword to spread Christ word is really efficient, who'd a thunk?
Nah, Christianity is not Islam.
>>1202877
Sinners are worth less than bacteria
And sinners who refuse the love of God deserve the sensation of utter hopelessness, fear, and anguish in every way imaginable
God is the ultimate dispatcher of justice
I don't blame you for putting them I suppose, but the animals made their choice
>>1202903
>Nah, Christianity is not Islam.
>Nah, lets not remove the Turks, but instead, lets please them while we attack the Crusaders from Rome trying to retake the Holy Land
>>1202911
Well you guys were occupying us, what do you expect?
>>1202919
You to join with us and remove Islam? Not that fucking hard man, come on.
>>1202900
>Hell is only just the absent of God. Take that what you will because that's all I have to say about it.
In that case I'm fine?
I've had a personal understanding of God for a while now. It's Pantheistic and not christian however, though I think of Christ as a sort of personification of the virtues of selflessness and sacrifice.
Everyone in this thread is a little piece of God, to me, as is everyone I've ever met.
According to this understanding I still don't *need* dogma or belief in an anthropomorphic, punishing deity.
>>1202905
> sinners who refuse the love of God deserve
> deserve
Sounds like you're the one deciding this.
>>1202922
>In that case I'm fine?
No.
>According to this understanding I still don't *need* dogma or belief in an anthropomorphic, punishing deity.
I would rather have you convert and be a Christian (Catholic would be preferable)
>>1202920
Imagine if Protestants occupied the Vatican and forced Protestants services and administration, and then call you traitors when you fight back, because they said you should be cooperating to fight Islam.
>>1202886
Are they part of the 144K?
>>1202930
>Imagine if Protestants occupied the Vatican and forced Protestants services and administration, and then call you traitors when you fight back, because they said you should be cooperating to fight Islam.
That's not applicable because we aren't talking about the Vatican (which isn't near the fucking holy land), we're talking about the fact that the Orthodox could of gave logistics and help out in removing the heretics. Why do you feel so keen on supporting Islam?
>>1202893
What is meant here? Direct visions of Jesus?
How come there aren't accounts of natives having visions of Jesus and spreading Christianity throughout the new world before the arrival of the Spanish? I mean, we're talking ~1500 years of no direct knowledge of Christian culture.
>>1202905
So you're not a sinner, are you? You're perfect, aren't you?
>>1202891
Thanks anon.
Sounds like things my grandma told me when I was young (she's not religious).
She always said "The only hell is the hell you make for yourself."
>>1202952
>She always said "The only hell is the hell you make for yourself."
Hell is only being away from God desu.
>>1202938
Can't, goes against our Church. The Catholic Church had her own standing army and granted indulgences for war, but the Orthodox Church never had her own army and we certainly couldn't give indulges for fighting in a war, since it's our policy that penance actually had to be done by soldiers returning from war for all the blood they've shed.
>>1202929
> I would rather have you convert and be a Christian (Catholic would be preferable)
Well that's certain, but the important question is why does God care?
But then to an extent I suppose you are an incarnation of the eternal will.
But so are the people opposed to your ideas.
>>1202547
The Eskimos had their own religion, so it doesn't matter. Just leave them alone. Same for all others that haven't been converted yet. Just leave these people be.
>>1202956
It says in that article that the Orthodox conception of hell involves no created place of divine absence nor is it ontological separation of God, but here you are saying it is, so I guess I'm confused again.
>>1202959
I agree.
I'm not trying to convert anybody.
I'm grappling with the logical edges of the theology I have been introduced to through culture I was born in and (partly) inherited, by asking questions about people who weren't.
>>1202957
>Can't, goes against our Church
But having an emperor isn't? Oh for fuck sake just give logistics and think of it like a political war, not Religious.
>>1202958
>but the important question is why does God care?
Because it's the right Church, it's the true Church, don't listen to tripfags like Constantine, he can't even tell me her real gender.
>>1202973
We aren't talking about Orthohell, I'm talking about Catholic hell.
>>1202977
That doesn't justify having a goddamn secular ruler being in charge of picking and choosing who can be the goddamn patriarch.
The affairs of the Church and the affairs of the state must be separate enough where the Church and pick it's own leaders.
>If God is all powerful, he can not be all good. And of he is all good, he can not be all powerful
What's the response to the problem of evil?
>>1202983
>What's the response to the problem of evil?
You gotta give Satan something to do.
>>1202985
For real?
>>1202547
Relligions is not just about not going to hell, its instructions from god of how to make your life better, that's why I've told you
>>1202983
This problem has been asked so many times that there's a specific name for a solution.
They're called Theodocy.
>>1202982
The Patriarch in any given country is like the ambassador, that's mainly what distinguishes him from a regular bishop, he's the go-between so it makes sense that the emperor can pick him. You had plenty of Popes installed by secular rulers, and the Patriarch has a lot less power than the Pope, the Patriarch is just special bishop.
>>1202951
I'm a filthy wretched sinner like anyone else
Only the love of Jesus will save my eternal soul
Every month I lash myself for my sinful thoughts and actions after going to confession
I'm a disgusting worm
>>1202959
>we do not believe...we fear
-Inuit shaman
By the way everyone, thanks for this really good thread.
You all gave really interesting answers, it's going in my "scrolls" folder.
>>1203005
Well I really don't see the issue. He still has to be ordained. With us, he doesn't have any authority in regard to dogma, it's just Sacramental authority
>>1202808
>God is the president
>You're the average citizen
>If you bump into him and smear ice cream on his suit you deserve to go to prison no matter how "sorry" you are as you're dragged away
You are an idiot who doesn't understand how the law actually works.
Nobody would ever go to prison for accidentally smearing ice cream on the president's suit and nobody would deserve to either.
...
I just got trolled didn't I?
>>1203042
>Well I really don't see the issue
The issue is that it turns the thing into a mouthpiece of the government, which is wrong.
>>1202878
Kys, litteral retards like you should be put to death.
>>1202983
God created everything that is good
Sin came from the lack of man's will -> That is, his will was not perfected
Evil comes from man's damaged will
God allows it because he's benevolent and not a control freak
>>1203051
>infants should go to hell
Legit, kys outta here
>>1203050
The catholic faith was essentially ratified at the council of Nicea by Constantine and a bunch of bishops who had been backstabbing each other and playing political games to get each other out of the council for months in advance.
The catholic faith started out as a mouthpiece for the very government that was supposed to have executed Christ.
It is the cultural appropriation of the faith of the oppressed Jews by their oppressors. Not even being an SJW about this. It's historically what happened in Early Christianity.
>>1203053
Why'd God create man with fucked up will? Was he just having an off day? Does he think it's funny or something?
>>1203050
You're supposed to be vehemently supportive of your rulers unless they demand violation of the faith. Romans 13
>>1203043
It's a funny analogy for sin and damnation when you think about it.
>>1203059
>The catholic faith started out as a mouthpiece for the very government that was supposed to have executed Christ.
And then Rome fell, picked itself back up and now the papal states exist.
Also politicking is still a good thing.
>>1203058
No, but the retarded notion that babies should go forever to "limbo" instead of heaven because by chance their parents didn't make them baptize or because they lvied 3,000 years before the birth of Christ or whatever is extremely retarded, almost retarded as the idea of one suffering for eternity for the crimes he committed in a finite time.
>>1203061
Yes.
t. platypus
>>1203062
>You're supposed to be vehemently supportive of your rulers unless they demand violation of the faith.
That doesn't mean they should be allowed to put corrupt maggots into an esteemed position of being, you know, the fucking head guy of the Church?
>>1203053
Why did God give man flawed will? Just to fuck with us? And for that matter, why does God punish humanity for the actions of two people who may or may not have existed?
>>1203067
>No, but the retarded notion that babies should go forever to "limbo" instead of heaven because by chance their parents didn't make them baptize or because they lvied 3,000 years before the birth of Christ or whatever is extremely retarded, almost retarded as the idea of one suffering for eternity for the crimes he committed in a finite time.
Protestants everyone. So a person with minor sins should be able to enter Heaven? A pure and clean place? Fuck off.
>>1203067
>almost retarded as the idea of one suffering for eternity for the crimes he committed in a finite time
It's almost like the concept of damnation was created as away to keep the masses in line or something.
>>1203071
Our Patriarch isn't the "head guy of the Church", he's just a bishop. He has no more authority than any other bishop.
Could you qualify what you mean by "corrupt"?
>>1203061
Because he's good and benevolent to let man choose his destiny
>>1202693
>>1202562
>>1202775
>dead infant
>God is all about testing the moral life one leads which determines if you get to go to heaven or not
>infants die to no fault of their own before they can even form a meaningful thought
>christians will defend this
>>1203077
IMPOSSIBRU
*apologetics intensifies*
>>1203080
>He has no more authority than any other bishop.
What is this HRE tier bullshit?
>Could you qualify what you mean by "corrupt"?
Using his power of the being the head guy to do political things, (See Joan of Arc).
>>1203082
Child has original sin
Child isn't baptized (meaning child still has sin)
Child gets pity
Child goes to Limbo
Wow, fucking simple isn't it?
>>1202547
this is when you apply ockham's razor.
A.Christianity is true and god is literally making it impossible for every human to know about him.
B.Christianity is only kind of true and God is powerful enough to create humans but has some limits on his power or love
C.Christianity is bullshit
>>1203085
>Child has original sin
Through no fault of his own, funny enough. Is God just a petty dick, or is this whole Christianity thing just a elaborate show to keep the masses in line and exert political?
>>1203081
How does God simultaneously let man choose
while also knowing the future.
Is he quantum entangled or something?
>>1203085
>What is this HRE tier bullshit?
You do realize we aren't the Catholic Church? We don't have a Pope. He has no more authority than any other bishop.
>Using his power of the being the head guy to do political things, (See Joan of Arc).
What does Joan of Arc have to do with the Orthodox Church? Our bishops do not have the power, and never have, to sentence prison or death on people.
>>1203086
I'd say C would be the correct choice when Occam's razor is applied.
>>1203089
God knows and can do everything.
He knows everything you're going to do, just like you know 1+1 will always be 2, or that you're going eat something within the week
Being a good person is being a good person. You don't need a book about some guy who died thousands of years ago to tell you not to treat people like shit.
Choose good over evil, and you walk in the light. It's that simple no matter what theological details you use to dress it up.
>>1203086
;-)
>>1203085
is limbo in the bible?
>>1202547
if a human dies before even knowing about god, god surely will give them an appropriate test after life.
>>1203081
>to let man choose his destiny
And yet original sin is a thing. Does he let us choose, or does he punish us for things done centuries ago?
>>1203099
Yes this is how I've always felt.
>>1203087
>Through no fault of his own, funny enough
So why should the kid get punished? Are you telling me a child should burn in hell because it has sin? Because that child isn't going to Heaven.
>>1203095
>You do realize we aren't the Catholic Church? We don't have a Pope. He has no more authority than any other bishop.
Decentralized religion is phooey. Like HRE is phooey for being decentralized mess.
>What does Joan of Arc have to do with the Orthodox Church?
We're talking about in terms of the Catholic Church, and why having secular rulers pick and choose the papacy is a fucking bad idea. She got fucking burned at the stake because of a Catholic priest was corrupt enough to do so.
>Our bishops do not have the power, and never have, to sentence prison or death on people.
So they do nothing? They aren't leaders? What's good is a bishop if they aren't the leaders of the Church?
>>1203101
It is not. So answer me this, where do the children go?
If it's not Heaven, where is it?
>>1203114
>Because that child isn't going to Heaven.
And why not? What sin has he committed (that isn't God holding a grudge over Adam)?
>>1203075
Is there free will in heaven?
>>1203116
Yea it is. It is in the bible.
>>1203119
No, because the possibility of sinning in heaven would mean it's possible to transfer from heaven to hell.
There is no mention of this in the bible, and besides, it would negate heaven as an eternal reward, and would also open up debate about the reverse process. (Hell to Heaven)
>>1203114
>Decentralized religion is phooey.
Why? That was how the early Church was run.
>She got fucking burned at the stake because of a Catholic priest was corrupt enough to do so.
Our priests don't have that power.
>So they do nothing? They aren't leaders? What's good is a bishop if they aren't the leaders of the Church?
They have authority for Sacraments and administration of their dioceses, but they can't teach what isn't Church dogma
I recall reading a letter written by a Chinese magistrate concerning Christianity. He saw the Christian God as a cruel eldrich abomination that violently punishes anyone who breaks it's arbitrary rules
>>1203117
>What sin has he committed (that isn't God holding a grudge over Adam)?
It's the sin that Adam committed. It's the sin all of mankind must be forced to bare because of Eve being a cunt. But to show that God isn't holding a grudge, he wouldn't torture infants who never did anything wrong but being born.
>>1203119
Yes.
>>1203122
So hell? Okay. Infants go to hell.
>>1203126
>Why? That was how the early Church was run.
This isn't the early Church.
>Our priests don't have that power.
That's stupid. They should have power.
>They have authority for Sacraments and administration of their dioceses, but they can't teach what isn't Church dogma
And that's asinine.
>>1203125
HOL UP
I thought God doesn't want robots
Which is it? Why did God create a paradise for all humans to be happy in without free will in heaven, but chose to fuck everyone else?
>>1203129
Got a PDF or link, bro?
>>1203132
>This isn't the early Church.
It's the same Church, no?
>That's stupid. They should have power.
They should have power to kill people? I don't think so.
>And that's asinine.
Why? They're mere men
>>1203132
I thought God said sins cannot be transferred from father to son
>>1203132
>It's the sin that Adam committed
And Mr. Nice Guy God holds this against the baby why? He doesn't even know who his grandfather is, let alone fucking Adam. Why does Adam fucking up pass on to little babby?
Or is the concept of original sin just retarded?
>>1203138
>It's the same Church, no?
It is, and times change, shit changes, if you don't adapt, you fall. When you fall, you get back up, and you try again.
>They should have power to kill people? I don't think so.
They should have the authority to preach the word of God and not be forced to be puppets in a government.
>Why? They're mere men
No, they're servants to God, preaching his word.
>>1203133
Just going off of what revelation says.
>>1203144
>>1203139
So that's why the Jews weren't allowed into Heaven?
>>1203142
>And Mr. Nice Guy God holds this against the baby why? He doesn't even know who his grandfather is, let alone fucking Adam. Why does Adam fucking up pass on to little babby?
Because God has fucking rules. But he's nice enough to not torture the goddamn infant because that would be wrong, what God fucking tortures children, probably the Moslem God. So that's why, because sin cannot exist in Heaven, the infant must go to Limbo.
>>1203143
>times change
The Church, however, is supposed to be unchanging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9p---FA48s
>They should have the authority to preach the word of God and not be forced to be puppets in a government.
They have the authority to preach the word of God. What do you mean by "puppets", exactly? They can't advocate anything not line with Christ.
>No, they're servants to God, preaching his word.
These are not mutually exclusive categories.
>>1203150
>Because God has fucking rules
These rules seem incredibly arbitrary and quite unfair. If my father is the worst serial killer the world has ever seen, the US government doesn't punish me, they punish my father.
>>1203150
>rules are rules
So basically this thing we call life has no real meaning besides teh rules of god? It's whatever rules he sets up and that's it? Why doesn't he just magically remove the sin? He can defy logic and make 1+1=anal after all
>>1203144
Acts 16:31
>>1203150
If sin can't exist in heaven does this mean Lucifer did nothing wrong?
>>1203150
>Because God has fucking rules
So did Hitler, funny enough. Just because something is a rule doesn't mean it's right.
>>1203152
>The Church, however, is supposed to be unchanging.
Keyword is supposed, doesn't mean it has to.
>They have the authority to preach the word of God.
That's it?
>What do you mean by "puppets", exactly?
If it's appointed by the government, then it's puppets.
>They can't advocate anything not line with Christ.
In theory.
>These are not mutually exclusive categories.
But they are.
>>1203153
>>1203155
>>1203157
>>1203158
>getting triggered by the fact infants don't go to Heaven, but don't go to Hell
The hell is wrong with you people?
>>1203104
The original sin was forgiven because of Jesus christ, man was allowed to live in God's paradise, with the only condition being that he shouldn't eat from the forbidden.
God lets man choose, but he forgives, and has since forgiven the original sin with the arrival of Jesus Christ
>>1203125
Well that means there is no free will in heaven.
>>1203164
>The hell is wrong with you people?
Denying a child access to eternal paradise because of something he didn't even do is cruel beyond belief.
>>1203158
It makes it right because they're God's rules, and God is good and would never do evil
>>1203173
>Denying a child access to eternal paradise because of something he didn't even do is cruel beyond belief.
And sending a child to hell isn't?
No, the child goes to Heaven-lite. A place that isn't Heaven but pretty close to it.
>>1203164
>getting triggered by the fact infants don't go to Heaven, but don't go to Hell
>The hell is wrong with you people?
Don't catholics also get triggered by this? Hence, no abortion?
>>1203164
I'm not triggered it's just salvation is meaningless when it's only offered to people lucky enough to make it to a certain age, live in certain countries, and at the right time in history(post 1950s for most developing countries)
>>1203157
good point the bible does say Satan is currently in hell just that he'll be there one day
>>1203178
>No, the child goes to Heaven-lite
Why? Because petulant sky-wizard says so, rather than based off of any legitimate fault?
>>1203185
Which brings up an abortion point...
If god sends aborted babies to hell then it means he is a ripe bastard.
If he sends the babies to heaven then it means we have to abort as many babies as possible to prevent people from sinning and going to hell as adults.
>>1202547
you haven't even delineated an actual fucking question
I can't believe this thread has 177 replies
>>1203181
>Don't catholics also get triggered by this? Hence, no abortion?
Pretty much, the woman that does it gets kicked out but the child goes to limbo. Killing children is wrong. It's fucking wrong, immoral as fuck.
>>1203184
That's horseshit, little Pablo in Mexico can probably make it to Heaven if he's good.
>>1203178
This is the point where you have to concede that god isn't all powerful and fallible or you just have a disaster of a religion. Because unless God is limited by these arbitrary rules and sending the infant to heaven-lite, then I honestly don't even.
>>1203164
>Keyword is supposed, doesn't mean it has to.
This smells like heresy. The Church conforms to Christ, not the current year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noetoc2W4Pc
>That's it?
And perform Sacraments and pedestrian administrative functions. Nothing more.
>If it's appointed by the government, then it's puppets.
Non sequitur.
>In theory.
They can, but then they get anathematized, as happened with several patriarchs. Don't forget Nestorius was a Patriarch.
>But they are.
Acts 10:26
What would happen if God and his army was somehow defeated along with Lucifer and the demons? Would the world be freed from the tyranny of supernatural monsters?
>>1203198
>Because unless God is limited by these arbitrary rules and sending the infant to heaven-lite, then I honestly don't even.
He isn't, but he's playing by the rules he made.
Who can call him God when he doesn't even play the game he made right?
>>1203204
>This smells like heresy. The Church conforms to Christ, not the current year.
You have no right to call anything heresy, you fucking heretic.
>And perform Sacraments and pedestrian administrative functions. Nothing more.
Really now?
>Non sequitur.
Well fuck you too, sorry I tried to explain.
>They can, but then they get anathematized, as happened with several patriarchs. Don't forget Nestorius was a Patriarch.
Who? I don't follow Orthodox.
>>1203209
Then the universe would cease to be, great anon, you killed the universe.
>>1203209
this is a question regarding the mythos of christianity, or in other words, the "lore" of the religion.
>>1203215
>You have no right to call anything heresy
Something either is heresy or it isn't, it's not a question of right to call it that, there is no relativism here. A spade is a spade.
>>1203220
>Something either is heresy or it isn't, it's not a question of right to call it that, there is no relativism here. A spade is a spade.
Well then friend, we're at two fucking different points in two different Churches.
>>1203209
Nigga this ain't a JRPG
>>1203223
That's sacrilege
>>1203226
Doesn't matter, you aren't with my Church, and I'm not in your Church.
>>1203215
How does it matter if God plays by his rules or not? If the rules that he created are abhorrent and morally reprehensible then that just makes it worse. He cannot be perfect by that definition. If he's an angry hateful, chaotic god it might makes sense, but it doesn't mesh with this "all loving god" that you're preaching.
How does the simple fact that billions of ppl practice other religions with the same if not more fervour than you do still make you think that you're special and are practicing the right one where as the others are just wasting their time? It would seem to me that it would take a special type of ignorance and non compassion for others living on this planet to think so.
>>1203230
Your *denomination, technically
>>1203217
How? The universe is a creation right? No different from killing a watchmaker
>>1203224
kek
>>1203237
No, in Christianity (unlike Deism) God actively sustains the universe, he didn't just create it.
>>1203234
>He cannot be perfect by that definition. If he's an angry hateful, chaotic god it might makes sense, but it doesn't mesh with this "all loving god" that you're preaching.
Now I want you to climb through my posts and try to spot the part where I said he was all loving.
>>1203236
Don't patronize me. Orthodox Church is still in the wrong for not telling the emperor to help the Catholics defeat the Islam.
>>1202547
The priests answer to the Eskimo's first question is wrong
Invincible ignorance does not mean the invincibly ignorant won't go to hell, it just means they won't go to hell for lack of faith in Christ and could potentially be saved, although it will be much harder for someone invincibly ignorant to reach salvation since they'll be likely to end up stuck in their sins
>>1203249
Is that not the definition of the christian god? That he is an all loving all powerful god?
>>1203249
>Orthodox Church is still in the wrong for not telling the emperor to help the Catholics defeat the Islam
How that the Church's place? Did the Apostles tell the Caesar what to do?
>>1203246
So God is the cosmic keystone of the universe? What if he was somehow sealed away or imprisoned until he learned his lesson?
>>1203258
>That he is an all loving all powerful god?
Yeah, so that's why children don't go burn in hell and suffer because of birth.
>>1203260
>How that the Church's place? Did the Apostles tell the Caesar what to do?
No, because we aren't Rome. Rome fell. Rome is burning. Rome got sacked. And in it. The clergy became the new Rome.
>>1203269
Sealed away where? by what? God is just as much beyond the noetic (angels and so on) as he is beyond the material, he's infinitely beyond both.
>>1203271
>The clergy became the new Rome.
The clergy AND the laity are Israel. Rome is not some spiritual nation as Israel is.
>>1203274
Okay, Judea burned, the temple got sacked. Next?
>>1203272
So he claims
He had a lot of trouble with iron weaponry (common defense against paranormal beings). This leads one to believe that he could be imprisoned.
>>1203271
Right, because an all powerful, all loving god would set up arbitrary rules for himself, such as sending infants to be born, then die so they can go to next best heaven, instead of letting him test his mettle and strive for moral good in life so he can be judged on a fair playing field with everyone else. But of course we should be grateful that he didn't send the infant straight to hell right? That makes him such a great god.
>>1203282
>such as sending infants to be born, then die so they can go to next best heaven
Uh, anon. God didn't do that. God doesn't control people like puppets. That's asinine.
>>1203275
The new Temple is Christ
>>1203282
I think the one message to draw from all this is that Christianity is stupid.
>>1203287
Yes he does. He has a divine plan for everyone, and he has created the universe and set up a system where certain infants are born and then die because of muh primal sin.
>>1203300
Explain to me how that infant has any say in what happens to him?
>>1203300
>And Christ is in Heaven.
Heaven and earth are not mutually exclusive.The Church is his Body.
>>1203304
>Explain to me how that infant has any say in what happens to him?
It doesn't. It died because of disease or because the mother was unfit or a degenerate.
Sorry if you can't handle shit like that.
>>1203310
Or maybe some hostile threw the mother down the stairs because they were drunk.
How does that justify sending the baby to hell.
>>1203307
And the body of Christ is the Catholic Church, thanks for playing Constantine, next you're gonna tell me to get a life.
>>1203315
>How does that justify sending the baby to hell.
>baby
>hell
What sick God tortures a fucking infant? Child goes to Limbo.
>>1203317
You don't even administer the Blood of Christ to most communicants, the Body is Flesh and Blood.
>>1203310
>tfw Christians still don't have an explanation for Original Sin besides "because God said so" or sins of the father
>>1203281
>google this
>Iron Chariots
Holy shit anon, this is interesting stuff
I didn't even know this was a thing
>>1203320
Where is limbo referenced in the Bible?
>>1203322
>You don't even administer the Blood of Christ to most communicants
Bitch, we still have the Blood of Christ, Vatican II may be shit, but it didn't change that.
>>1203328
It's because the God of the Old Testament is not the same God in the New Testament.
>>1203331
Nowhere, so unless you want to say children burn in hell, you better stop.
>>1203333
I mean for hundreds of years only clergy were allowed to partake of the wine,and to this day that's mostly still the practice.
>>1203335
Isn't God changing an indication that he isn't perfect, and therefore unworthy of praise?
>>1203336
So Christians made up limbo even though its not in the Bible to make them feel better about dead babies? How does that work?
Something that important should have been in the instruction manual?
>>1203344
Limbo doesn't exist, it's RCC fanfic
>>1203336
So God does send unbaptized children to hell?
>>1203343
No it's because former Jewish converts to Christianity didn't want to abandon their traditions and heritage so the two religions were crammed together.
>>1203353
What does that do to the whole God the Father = Jesus thing though?
>>1203360
Nothing.
>>1203341
Uh no.
>>1203344
>So Christians made up limbo even though its not in the Bible to make them feel better about dead babies? How does that work?
theology and the fact that it can or can't exist in the sake of any argument. The Catholic Church actually states that it may or may not exist.
>>1203347
Orthodoxy is Rome bitch, I don't think you got any room for anything.
>>1203349
No.
>>1203335
I know, but I'm interested in the fact that God had difficulty with iron
>>1203343
If an all-powerful thing was once red and then turned blue, it's still all-powerful
>>1203344
From how I think of it, there's different levels of hell
Babies aren't guilty of any major sins other than original sin, so they're not getting the highest level of hell
And, while they're still in hell, the babies don't know any better since they haven't lived long enough to experience a better life, so the minor punishment of hell is basically "neutral" to them.
>>1203364
So if OT God and NT God ain't the same guy, how does Jesus become the new covenant and fulfill all of those OT prophecies?
>>1203366
So if god doesn't send dead babies to hell and guarantees them a place in heaven, shouldn't we abort as many babies as possible to send as many people to heaven instead of letting them grow up and be degenerates and go to hell?
>>1203380
Yes.
>>1203366
>No.
Seeing as how Limbo isn't in the Bible, where does he send them?
>>1203366
>Uh no.
In the RCC? Yep.
>>1202701
>Jews will ultimately turn around, some of them and start preaching the Gospel
>Muslims will remain saying they are right and killing all who oppose them until the end of the world
Nearly everyone hears about Jesus. They either listen, or they turn away.
>>1203380
No, the fucking goal is to have them go to Heaven.
Heaven is the place you want to be at, why are we dwelling on the fucking idea of infants being dead?
>>1203385
To Limbo, or purgatory.
>>1203386
I drank Communion wine when I was a little kid, I think I fucking know what the Church does or doesn't.
>>1203394
>I drank Communion wine when I was a little kid, I think I fucking know what the Church does or doesn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_under_both_kinds
>>1203394
>To Limbo, or purgatory.
Neither of which are in the Bible, so the existence of said planes is questionable.
>>1203398
You do realize Catholics don't even care about the Bible right?
>>1203310
So the all perfect god creates a moral testing world where ppl are supposed to show themselves worthy of joining him in heaven, but he creates it so that uncontrollable factors like disease and natural disasters can stop your moral test before you have even learned that one exists?
If other gods would have a competition of who could create the best ultimate moral test world, then this god would get an F.
>>1203409
>Well unless you wanna live with saying that little children who dindu nuffin go to Hell
I suppose that's the truth, and God is a eternal dick.
>>1203398
>>1203405
Matthew 5:25-26
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
You can't get out of hell.... so I wonder what Jesus was talking about here.
>>1203414
>I suppose that's the truth, and God is a eternal dick.
That's not the truth.
Fuck this is just a massive load Of bullshit. Does anyone here UNIRONICALLY believe this?
>>1203409
They would go to heaven.
They aren't unclean in anyway as they are incapable of sin.
>>1203419
>you can't get out of hell
What is the Harrowing of Hell?
>>1203426
>They aren't unclean in anyway as they are incapable of sin.
Oh man, that original sin tho.
>>1203423
Surprisingly, lots of people do
>>1203406
Seriously
As far as not being a cunt goes Vishnu has him solidly beaten, shiet even Thor actively protects mortals from danger while asking for nothing in return
>>1203423
If you repeat a lie enough times it becomes true
>>1203429
Jesus paid for that. That is why he came here.
>>1203428
>between the time of his Crucifixion and his Resurrection when he brought salvation to all of the righteous who had died since the beginning of the world (excluding the damned).
If you are damned, there is no going back.
This is also special pleading, it is a one time case. Other than that you don't get out. So I wonder what Jesus was talking about.
>>1203447
>Jesus paid for that. That is why he came here.
No. He opened the door to heaven.
>>1203453
Both actually. To say otherwise is heretical.
>>1203442
It's the fact that the gods of old are fallible that makes them on the face less reprehensible. It's this claim that the christian god is all powerful that creates so many problems.
