Why are the ancient Greeks claimed as the creators of western civilization?
Geographically speaking as well as culturally and their role in history, aren't they more similar to the rest of the mediteranian and the Middle East?
Westen Europe didn't adopt democracy until thousands of years after the ancient Greeks were doing it, and ethnically and culturally modern Greeks seem to be closer to middle easterners than Northern Europe, or "the western world".
Is it because the Romans idolized the Greeks and subsequent European powers idolized the Romans or is it more complicated?
The western world doesnt mean northern europe especially back then.
>>1195000
Greeks literally defined "Europa" as their side of the Bosporous and "Asia" as the other side, a division that is still used to this day
they invented the concept of Europe
A: The Romans emulated the Greeks tremendously, culturally and artistically, and they built a super-Western state that united people under a common identity
B: Greek literature and philosophy is the cornerstone of Western literature and philosophy. Not to mention mathematics.
C: Greeks were the medium Christianity spread through, and it was Christianity that kept a common identity in the West after the Roman Empire fell.
>>1195088
This too, Herodotus frames the struggle between Greece and Persia as that between West and East, and ties it in as a continuation of the same struggle of the Trojan War.
>>1195000
Nice try, Chang.
>>1195000
>similar to the rest of the Mediterranean
You mean like Rome, which is also regarded as the foundation of the West?
>>1195000
Greek ideas were taken up again in the 16th and 17th centuries
>Why are the ancient Greeks claimed as the creators of western civilization?
I don't know, why do you assume there are 'creators' of Western civilization, when history tells us that what we call 'Western civilization' is a very complex mix of religious and philosophical themes that took 5000 years to develop, involving contributions stretching from the coldest settlements in Scandinavia to the hottest deserts of what is now Iraq, Egypt and Iran?
>>1195095
A:
The romans were nothing like any of our current states or any other state since the dawn of the Modern Era
B:
Greek literature and philosophy were the main references to western thought, but the west completely surpassed greek thought. Even the notion of democracy has a radically different theorical basis. Western Mathematics have nothing to do with Ancient mathematics.
While the greek based all their mathematics on geometry, worked solely with whole numbers and concepts, in fact they were obsessed (and ultimately limited) by their fundamental idea of solids as the basis of reality.
In comparison, western mathematical thought sustains itself in abstractions and in the notion of infinity. Instead of geometry, spacial aprehension is imagined as coordinates within abstract "empty" space. It was only with Descartes that western mathematics began, and that happened exactly because Descartes completely cut off with the ancients limitations.
C:Greeks were the medium Christianity spread through
This is generally true. But the greeks that spread christianity had nothing to do with ancient greek thought whatsoever
>>1195000
>Why are the ancient Greeks claimed as the creators of western civilization?
Because they invented law, state, democracy, philosophy, theater, sculpting, mathematics, science, medicine, etc. pp. - in short, everything that defines western society nowadays. The west copied these ideas from the Greeks.
>ethnically and culturally modern Greeks seem to be closer to middle easterners than Northern Europe
The ancient Greeks were also ethnically and culturally closer to middle easterners than northern European snowniggers. And Egyptians build pyramids while Germanics fucked boars in the swamp.
Watch this, OP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FrHGAd_yto&index=1&list=PL023BCE5134243987
>>1195191
>The romans were nothing like any of our current states or any other state since the dawn of the Modern Era
Law, government, language, medicine, military strategy/organization, mythology, and religion all take huge cues from Rome you daft cunt
>hurr durr dey didnt play ecksbocks like we so dey arent like us
jesus christ
OP I laugh at you
I always wondered too
When I think Greece I think Egypt, Mesopotamia, Anatolia, etc
Northern Europe was a different world
The ancient Greeks formalized various lines of thought that standardized what we now accept as fields of knowledge. The philosophers initiated many fields of knowledge in a formal way, that's why they're seen as the creators. Before them we didn't have any defensible justification for pursuing medicine, naturalism, mathematics, etc. For Europeans for most of history, Greek history was about as far back as they were aware of.
Realistically though, we all know they just carried the mantle left by Egypt and other civilizations of the fertile crescent. Really the Sumerians should be considered the creators of western civilization since they were the first. We still use things invented by them and the Babylonians.
>>1195088
This is a good point.
They wrote the first dictionaries so to speak, so literally they defined things before anyone else. Honestly that might be it.
>>1195088
>their side of the bosphorus
They were on both sides.
It's also a completely stupid division, as evidenced by the ease with which they settled both sides.
>>1195933
Persia also had an enormous influence. Remember how much ancient Greeks bitched about "oriental despots" and such? Then the later Greeks and Romans copied everything, and that's how empires and modern states appeared in the West.
>>1195301
>Law
No
>State
No
>Medicine
No
okay so, here's the thing:
first of all, ancient greeks INVENTED scientifical, critical thinking. there was this science going on all around the world (china, mesopotomia, egypt) but the people were doing science for practical reasons (e.g egyptians used to calculate the areas that became flooded by nile a few times a year and they really developed their geometry skills). ancient greek philosophers, in the meanwhile, did science because they wanted to learn how the universe works. they didn't do science because they wanted to observe and worship their "star gods" or "the sun in they believed". they did science because they seeked for the truth and that's how they basically invented the science concept we recognize today.
then, unfortunately, the ancient greek civilization came to its end on account of political and military events that took place nearby. christianity overspreaded and stopped the critical thinking.
after assyrians translated the ancient greek works into arami language, arabs adopted them and translated them into arabic which was the lingua franca and the science language of the golden renaissance age of islamic civilization. those works were studied and then introduced to europeans by arabs. then, as you know, western "renaissance" we know occured.
renaissance word itself means "revival". it stands for the revival of the ancient greek civilization.
so, yeah. that's it.
>>1195745
Literally the only thing that had a significant direct impact in western culture and that was sufficiently similar to its original roman form was Law.
Late Empire Rome is not classical culture whatsoever.
>>1195301
>Germanics who raped my mom and gave birth to my Chad brother
>>1195976
>It's also a completely stupid division, as evidenced by the ease with which they settled both sides.
That's like saying using a river as a border is stupid because people can build bridges over rivers.
The strait is a slap in the face obvious geographic division. Even if easily crossed, it's less easily crossed than walking, and just because you categorize two things as different regions doesn't magically mean one has to be totally inaccessible. It's like saying "why did they name our neighbouring city x when you can just drive there in an hour?"
>>1195301
What do you mean 'invented'? Those are all broad as fuck categories that had certainly existed before the Greeks.
>>1196117
>christianity overspreaded and stopped the critical thinking
>>1196115
yes
yes
yes
>>1196193
It's stupid because Greece and Anatolia form a rather coherent geographical region, because Greece and Anatolia (and their inhabitants) are closer than Norway and Greece or Anatolia and China.
>That's like saying using a river as a border is stupid because people can build bridges over rivers.
Rivers are used as boundaries between states because they're easy to keep track of (it's like a thick border was drawn in blue ink on the landscape) and because they're militarily defensible. As boundaries between different worlds, continents or even people, they're usually stupid. Without the geopolitical imperative, most cities will settle both sides of the river, not to mention they're occasionally built right in the middle of one. Once the surrounding tribes are pacified, rivers stop being obstacles and become highways for material and cultural transmission and the axis of a new civilization. See the history of the Tiber or the great Chinese rivers, for example.
Does Egypt start on the left bank of the Nile?
>>1196390
>Does Egypt start on the left bank of the Nile?
And I asked this because Greeks considered that Africa (or "Libya" as they called it) was everything left of the Nile, which again exemplifies how fucking stupid their choice of geographical divisions were.
>>1196270
all of those things existed before greeks, so no they did not invented them
All these faggots posting in a troll bait thread...
>>1195095
Modern mathematics is built on Western/Central European mathematics of the 15th-19th centuries
>>1195745
>Law, government, language, medicine, military strategy/organization, mythology, and religion all take huge cues from Rome
Amongst many other things and Rome was heavily influenced in turn by the civilisations they came in contact with and they too with others.
>childish greentext with no basis for bringing up
Clearly shows your maturity and mentality coming in to this discussion.
Romaboos to history are as bad as contemporary weeaboos to modern culture.
>>1195976
they happened to call the Greek settlements on the other side "Greek Asia"
>>1196418
Considering that we have equally-"stupid" geographical dividing lines today, such the Suez Canal being an acceptable division between Asia and Africa, the Greek ones don't seem that bad.
>>1196203
>had certainly existed before the Greeks
not in Snow-Nigeria
>>1198094
I seriously doubt ancient Greeks spoke English.
>>1198130
Or calling Europe and Asia two different continents
The idea of a continuous line of civilization in the west, is really a grand meme. The Latin abd Hellenic worlds may have been corrected some, but the Anglo domination we see today isn't from Rome, at that time Anglos were still the cold barbarians in the north sea somewhere.
It's simply success in different forms at different times, not like there's this western civilization spirit that follows from one entity to the next.
>>1195301
>>ethnically and culturally modern Greeks seem to be closer to middle easterners than Northern Europe
>The ancient Greeks were also ethnically and culturally closer to middle easterners than northern European snowniggers
I don't know what ethnicity is: the post
>>1196213
How is that a fedora moment for you? What it says is true
>>1200827
Galileo was placed under house arrest while pagans killed Socrates and Archimedes, plenty of clergymen contributed to science yet I don't remember a priest of Jupiter inventing anything, the crisis of the 3rd century occurred before Christianity became popular and Constantine used it as a political tool to bring the empire back together, even so this evidence is insufficient to prove anything either way. Psychologists and neuroscientists have to perform strictly controlled double cross blinded studies just to determine whether the sense of smell can help you remember things, yet you claim you can determine the effects different religions have on critical thinking skills based on memes.
This is not a minor error like assuming guns surpassed longbows mainly because guns require less training, they are easier to use so that must have been a factor, just not the only factor. In your case not only does your conclusion have no compelling evidence, you leaped to that conclusion specifically.
Slide your fingers along the rim of that thrift shop fedora you are wearing RIGHT NOW and give it a good tippity top tip for me.
>>1201392
>>galileo was the only person who was persecuted
Bruno was tortured to death you realize simply for disagreeing with the established views of the time, don't pretend like plenty of people, scientists or no, weren't murdered for either not being christian or not being the right kind of christian.
>>contributions to science
The greeks were the ones who laid the foundations for science, the medieval scholarly monks built upon it somewhat, but we only really see modern scientific thought emerge as european nations moved further away from christian thought.
>>1195911
You may be surprised to learn that there was a mass-migration of northern European gauls through Greece, Macedon, and Thrace into central anatolia in the 270s BC. The Galatians were then settled in military colonies by the Greco-Macedonian successor states in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Persia.
The Greeks also colonized Spain, Southern France, and the Black Sea coast as far north as Crimea.
In the Byzantine era, Germanic Goths were settled throughout the Balkans and Anatolia much as the Galatians had been. Northern and southern Europeans were not really isolated from each other, and northern Europeans who were resettled in Greek states tended to become culturally hellenized pretty quickly, arguably faster than the easterners over whom they lorded it alongside the Macedonian, Greek, and Thracian warrior class
