![segregated-fountains[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/hy1Vhvo.jpg "segregated-fountains[1].jpg")
There are a lot of older Russians who miss the Soviet Union, even though it was an objectively terrible system that they were exploited by. In the same vein, are there any older American or South African blacks who lived through and miss the systems of segregation/apartheid? You never hear about them if they do exist.
segregation/apartheid are wildly different from the Soviet Union, anon
>>1179363
Some of the Slave Narratives spoke nostalgically of slavery.
>>1179363
Uncle Rukus sees the powerful niggadry behind your thinly veiled /pol/ thread, and reminds you that a whole lot more people were better off before the collapse of the USSR, than there are blacks who were better off under slavery, let alone segregation, the former at least having some vague advantages, such as food and board, the latter having none at all.
>>1179391
Uncle ruckus would probably relate some tales of how beneficent white masters were to their slaves and how good blacks had it under slavery, which is a very real thing that some people believe today.
>>1179398
>which is a very real thing that some people believe today.
Sure, but do any African Americans believe that?
>>1179398
Yes, but they are as rare and as crazy as the cartoon character.
Plus OP said segregation/apartheid, and the number of blacks that think Jim Crow and the like was good for them you can count on one hand. There was no advantage to that.
One *could* make the argument that it allowed American black culture to happen, as otherwise they may had just integrated and been white washed into oreos, but not that it was pleasant to live under and didn't stomp any hope of financial growth or social advancement into ground for near a hundred years and a half dozen generations after slavery ended.
...and I gotta stop bumping these /pol/ threads...
>>1179423
>objectively shitty periods of history
Heh
>>1179421
How does Sowell explain the destruction of the black family from the 1960s onward? What does he blame?
>>1179441
The same thing most prominent economists blame it on: The Great Society Programs and the drug policies of Reagan. The former absolutely demolished the black family unit and pushed blacks to become dependent upon welfare. The latter destroyed any chances of recovery for a good long while.
>>1179421
Sowell is not a historian, he is a sub-par economist.
>>1179363
No, my mom and dad and together there 26 siblings all think it was fucked up.
One were subsistence farmers who would pick cotton for a cash crop at times, the others were wealthy professionals, business owners and political leaders.
The only people who could possibly have appreciated Jim Crow were certain people who had a monopoly on the black dollar, who were related to the white leadership (which was often the case) and who thought themselves to be different from the black masses but honestly these people were few and far between since most wealthy blacks sought to desegregate to integrate into lauded White institutions and "uplift the race".
Jim Crow unified black interests, it's the reason why mulatto elite in the US are the only New World mixed race population to do so.
>>1179452
>nobel prize winner
>sub-par economist
Wew lad. Either way, not what the thread is about. It's about whether or not there are blacks that think blacks had it better under segregation. I pointed to one.
>>1179451
Black leadership sought to attain funds and funnel them through places like Tuskegee, black industry and black institutions for the poor. Liberal whites didn't heed them.
>>1179452
>the others were wealthy professionals, business owners and political leaders.
How white is this side of your family and how dark is the other side?
>>1179423
Then don't start your thread off by dragging the damn niggers into it.
Not everything about the USSR was objectively bad.
Near everything about segregation was objectively bad - if you were black.
Not really comparable.
Not that the phrase "objectively bad" itself isn't objectively bad.
Maybe some people miss The Great Depression, IDK... Lotta interesting culture came out of it, I suppose.
Apprantly some black people in the poorest parts of SA want apartied back, as they were less poor under it.
It might just be /pol/ lies tho
>>1179470
Are those the tribes that had reservations scattered throughout SA?
>>1179481
not sure man, i just remember seeing more then one video images of blacks in SA talking about it. Dont know much else
>>1179363
>In the same vein, are there any older American or South African blacks who lived through and miss the systems of segregation/apartheid?
most of the ones on universities that are demanding safe spaces where white people aren't allowed
>>1179462
One grandparent is pitch black but has thin features and a lot of body hair
One grandparent is brown and straight haired
These were farmers
One is very light with straight hair and slanted eyes
This side part Asian, mostly because of Malagasy ancestry
One is light brown, curly haired and blue eyed
Some on the last grandparent's line passed for white, others look north african.
Some people look fondly on the past.
With regards to segregation, the best aspects of society at the time continued well after segregation. You've honestly got a better chance of black people liking the 2000s more because there were less identity politics
As for Apartheid, there may be a case there. Blacks wouldnt want to necessarily go back to that time, but I do know a lot of South Afrikans (many blacks included) realize that the current South Afrika is a crime ridden shithole and do understand that not all of the police state was bad.
It takes something worse for you to appreciate the past, and evidently, post-segregation America was not worse.
>>1179423
The thing you got to remember is that while plenty of people in Russia are better off now, a bunch of them are worse off because they are poor as fuck. For 99% of Black people under Jim Crow, it was worse than it is now.
>>1179546
>For 99% of Black people under Jim Crow, it was worse than it is now.
That's a pretty high figure, how are you measuring better or worse?
>>1179530
Interesting, are both sides of your family descendant from former slaves?
>>1179536
>post-segregation America was not worse.
The 1970s-early 1990s were pretty awful.
>>1179363
> Objectively terrible
> Lowest 20% of Russians still worse off than they were in 1989
Like, USSR was not great, but objectively bad?
>>1179628
Just because parts of it got more shit doesn't mean the USSR wasn't pretty shit on its own.
Hell, the whole
>holding half a continent as a literal open-air prison for 50 years
alone is enough to be pretty unilaterally considered the "bad guy"
>>1179363
60s to 80s Russia wasn't a bad time to be alive.
>>1179363
Uncle ruckus
Uncle tom
>>1179639
>holding half a continent as a literal open-air prison for 50 years
Stalin's policies were around while Stalin himself was around.
>>1179658
>Uncle tom
I get the feeling that most people who use this term have no idea what it actually means.
>>1179464
Stop saying nigger, go back to /pol/ you fucking retard
>>1179659
>what is the invasion of Hungary
>what is the invasion of Czechoslovakia
>what is the Berlin Wall
The Soviets literally built a wall to keep people in and were actively suppressing any attempts by the people of the subject nations to have any semblance of independence. Don't act like Stalin was the only bad part of the USSR.
>>1179671
>what is the invasion of Hungary
>what is the invasion of Czechoslovakia
Things the average USSR citizen didn't know even happened up until Glasnost and the Union's collapse.
The perestroika age was definitely shitty though, what with food shortages and soviet morals and traditions being thrown out of the window in favor of western trends and standards.
>>1179661
While it's *should* be a term of endearment, I've only ever seen it used as a derogatory term. Usually something along the lines of
>Hey he's not towing the line
Like when McNiggerator over on /k/ ended up being one of the bodyguards for Bundy during that ranch standoff a while back, you had people from all over throwing around the term "Uncle Tom" because he wasn't following the political views that blacks generally subscribe to and wasn't phased by Bundy himself making some borderline racist remarks.
Personally I'd argue that with how it's being used by people nowadays, calling someone an Uncle Tom is far worse than calling someone a Nigger. It's pretty much trying to force the idea that black people are a hivemind and that any independence or divergence from the group is some horrible, traitorous thing.
>>1179683
>Things the average USSR citizen didn't know even happened
The 1968 invasion was reported in Soviet newspapers.
>>1179699
My relatives didn't hear anything about it back in those years.
On the average the war in Afghanistan is seen as worse and much more damaging than the two invasions you've listed.
>>1179386
I've seen some pics of those, do you happen to have them saved?
>>1179456
fyi he's never won the nobel prize
>>1179572
All black Americans descend from enslaved peoples, the difference is when their ancestors were freed.
Poor side were enslaved until the Emancipation Proclamation
Wealthy side has one grandparents line as free to about 1790 but some married freed people in and after the civil war. Still the other line of the wealthy side while comparatively poorer had large sums of land for southerners of any color and became teachers.
>>1179691
He is less a Tom and more of a coon.
Ward Connery and that Supreme Court Justice are Uncle Toms.
Condelezza Rice and Collin Powell while called both really are neither, they are just old school.
>>1179865
Not him but then only one I saw was of a person who was a mixed race girl who were more servan than anything else.
Others spoke of good moments and memories that happened of plantations but the institution itself was not joyous.
>>1179363
>exploited
>implying that exploitation is something that doesn't happen in any other system
>terrible system
System like a system, nothing special. Every system is opressive
>>1179411
There's a reason Uncle Ruckus exists as a character.
>>1179456
Sowell never won the Nobel Prize.
>>1179363
Granted that things are basically worse for blacks in the us today , I think yes
>>1179664
Aww Is the mean word triggering you, /leftypol/?
>>1179421
Sowell also happens to be an Uncle Tom. Hmmm I wonder if there's any correlation...
>>1180398
What does that even mean?
>>1180130
I'm Latino but might as well be black. Why are things worse? I think they're great and most of my black and Latino friends to too. In fact, its usually a bunch of white people and degenerate black and Latinos that want to tell me shits fucked up for us.
>>1181056
This tbqh, except I'm black. I don't get how things are worse. We have the right to vote, to sit where we want on a bus and to get elected to office. Anything is honestly better than getting hosed in the streets for doing something as menial as wanting basic liberties.
>>1179363
>even though it was an objectively terrible system that they were exploited by
Gods sake, this shit again? When the fuck will people see past the western propaganda? Even Romanians, the most oppressed people by the Communists, actually preferred the days of Ceausescu (at least before he went completely insane) than whats going on right now
Seriously, when will people stop demonizing the USSR as some 1984 ultra-dystopia and realize that for the average person life was pretty much okay?
>>1179363
Someone post the Rainbow Dash version
>>1182356
>Seriously, when will people stop demonizing the USSR as some 1984 ultra-dystopia and realize that for the average person life was pretty much okay?
Maybe when tankies treat the US in the same way.
>>1180130
Shut the fuck up! You don't even know what you are talking about
>>1179363
>even though it was an objectively terrible system that they were exploited by.
What do you mean? Most of those people were born after Stalin's death and never experienced any "exploitation"
>>1182356
>Seriously, when will people stop demonizing the USSR as some 1984 ultra-dystopia and realize that for the average person life was pretty much okay?
which is why they all rebelled against their communist leaders and separated from the USSR as soon as possible, right?
>>1182709
>He thinks life in USSR was always like 1989
WEW
Also nationalism
>>1179363
Not really because of segregation, but you get a lot of "back in ah day yo daddy would have whipped yo ass 'til it bled 'fo lettin' hang outta yo draws like that". They miss the stable family unit and conservative social attitudes same as old white people but most of them don't attribute the destruction of said family unit to the civil rights movement.
>>1179413
>One *could* make the argument that it allowed American black culture to happen, as otherwise they may had just integrated and been white washed into oreos
Segregation really was a mistake.
>>1182798
Not shipping blacks back to Africa was a mistake.
>>1179363
The end of desegregation meant the denucleation (or decapitation, depending on how you want to think of it) of previously-insulated black communities in the US. To segregate was to support policy which erected barriers to the integration of the black substratum of American society; to desegregate was to support policies which pursued the integration of blacks. The end of segregation was not the liberation of Black America, it was the beginning of its eradication.
The specific historical institution of segregation is not something Blacks look fondly upon, but the idea of segregation on more favorable terms is, at least among those who have refused assimilation into what they see as a "white" society which will strip them of their group identity.
>>1179363
"Ahhhhhhh shiettttt niggguhhhhhhh"
>>1182709
>implying that 1989-1991 was anything like 1979-1981 in the Soviet Union
>>1179363
"105% black with a 5% margin of error? NOOOOOOOOOOO"
>>1179363
I'd be Interested to know if there are any black zimbabwaen's who miss rhodesia, seeing as zimbabwe has ended up in such a sorry state
Living in tbe USSR was bettrr for the mass, worse for the elite, thats all
>>1183621
https://youtu.be/oOBFMMbUFI8
>>1179391
http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/slavery-in-the-united-states/
tl;dr:
-in the USA, blacks are genetically shorter than whites
however, under slavery in the USA, blacks were some of the tallest people on the planet, taller than whites in the USA, taller than British people, taller than most Europeans. Very few people were taller than blacks, eg ethnic Swedes, and British aristocrats. Probably also shorter than upper class whites in the USA.
This indicates that black slaves were better fed and better cared for than most people on the planet, including free US whites
-black families stayed together at a higher rate under slavery than they do today
-statistics on physical punishment are hard to come by, but based on some records of a slave owner, a slave could expect to be physically punishes 0.6 times per year.
did they benefit from slavery?
compared to what?
being bought by white people CERTAINLY benefited black slaves, as opposed to being a slave in black Africa
being freed? maybe
>>1184389
They were better fed in that they had their own gardens, ate nutrient dense offal and didn't have access to refined foods people with money had
Mind you pellagra was still a thing and I don't believe there was height census for all enslaved American people and every population in the World so I call b.s.
Black families divorcing and being sold off to another plantation are not the same thing so false equivalency
Physical punishment and psychological abuse and terrorism cannot be quantified as being better or worse by any metric of a person without political biases.
Nice try though, slavery before new world plantation societies in Africa was not the same.
>>1183602
Mugabe probably does.
>>1179363
People have nostalgia about those times for a reason. Russians have nostalgia about those times because there wasn't so much crime, they had a reason to be proud of (being a part of a "superpower" and considered a great nation), and many feel misplaced nostalgia for the USSR simply because they were young back then.
Black people had no reason to feel nostalgic about apartheid or slavery because there wasn't any upside to it.
>>1184655
your entire response shows that you didn't even bother to read the article, also your response sucks across the board, real disappointing stuff
>They were better fed in that they had their own gardens, ate nutrient dense offal and didn't have access to refined foods people with money had
Richer people tended to be taller
German aristocrats taller than German peasants
British aristocrats taller than British labourers
people with money?
black slaves in the usa were taller than russian factory workers, british labourers, german peasants, ie people without money
they were also taller than people with money
>Mind you pellagra was still a thing
What's your point? Did whites catch pellagra at a higher rate? Did blacks? what are you even saying?
>I don't believe there was height census for all enslaved American people
the article itself cited a study on heights
"for all enslaved american people". ridiculous standards, you don't need to measure every single person to estimate their height
>Black families divorcing and being sold off to another plantation are not the same thing so false equivalency
it's not a false equivalency, it is a true equivalency, I am comparing the ends not the means.
>Physical punishment and psychological abuse and terrorism cannot be quantified as being better or worse by any metric of a person without political biases.
this is just nonsense
what's more painful, hitting your toe on a piece of furniture or getting your testicles destroyed in a vice?
I bet you heard that line on a John Green video you fucking faggot
>>1185153
That's not necessarily true, I can guarantee you South Sudanese second and third generation refugees are taller than the average Japanese person or Singaporean or American who are much wealthier than they are.
There is no census of the entire U.S. slave populations height also. The slave censuses did not do so, it's disingenuous to use false information stating that.
The diets of enslaved people consisted of the same foods poor whites around them ate and both were affected by pellagra, they were not better off than poor whites and any height differences are likely due to genetics.
I bet you're going to saw there were censuses for the height of every native African to compare too.
Families divorcing and unmarried couples do not mean the child has no contact with the father or mother and their respective extended families. It is not the same as selling family off by force and never seeing them again. End of story
The constant threat of being sold off or raped or starved; the indoctrination that one is inferior and meant for a life of enslavement; the psychological terrorism that kept enslaved people enslaved cannot be quantified.
I was castrated, the pain of that cannot be compared to my being sold off never to see my family ever again and not having the ability to seek them out.
Nice try though anon.
>namecalling
Stay classy anon, makes your argument seem actually legitmate.
>>1185280
>That's not necessarily true
what isn't? I made like a dozen points.
right but I'm not talking about Sudanese people, I'm talking about west african blacks
what's your point
>There is no census of the entire U.S. slave populations height also.
right, you don't need a census to get a good figure for height, you can sample
>both were affected by pellagra
yet blacks came out taller. at what rate were they affected? who was affected more? why even mention this if you don't know the rates?
>any height differences are likely due to genetics.
whites in the USA today are taller than blacks in the USA today and that is due to genetics
>The constant threat of being sold off or raped or starved
any stats on this? at what rate were they starved? was it "constant"? at what rate were they raped? all you have is feels.
I can only find one quantitative record of how often corporal punishment was used, and that is the records of Bennet H. Barrow. The record spans a 23 month period, and over this period he issues 160 whippings, and he had 129 slaves. This averages out to about 0.65 whippings per slave per year
If they were under constant threat of being starved why were they so tall?
>>1185280
>constant threat of rape
On Rape: "Statistics further suggest that rapes were rare on plantations. Most people of 'mixed race' in the South were either slaves who lived in cities, where opportunities for interracial liaisons were far greater, or free. According to the 1860 census, 20 percent of urban slaves and 39 percent of free blacks in southern cities were mulattoes. But among rural slaves, who made up 95 percent of the slave population, only 9.9 percent were mulatto. Of the slave population as a whole, mulattoes made up only 7.7 percent in 1850 and 10.4 percent in 1860. Moreover, only 1.2 percent of the former slaves interviewed by the Works Progress Administration in the 1930s reported being raped by a master, only 5.8 percent reported hearing about the rape of another slave, and only 4.5 said that one of their parents had been white. According to Fogel and Engerman [Time on the Cross, 1974], all of the available evidence taken together indicates that the 'share of Negro children fathered by whites on slave plantations probably averaged between 1 and 2 percent.' Even Fogel and Engerman's most hostile critics concede that it was no more than 8 percent. There is also evidence of significant numbers of consensual relations between white men and slave women, which would make the percentage of children produced by rape even smaller." (in Thaddeus Russell, A Renegade History of the United States, 2010, pg 67)
>>1185326
compare it to rape stats in Africa for fun
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/publications-a-z/457-sexual-abuse-and-violence-in-sub-saharan-africa
>>1185326
The metric used for mulatto and black is not consistent and based on the discretion of the census taker.
It also ignore the fact that the average black American is 1/5th European American
Also there is no such thing as consensual sex when you're enslaved and do you really believe ex-slaves are going to all open up about their mothers or grandmothers being raped?
>>1185322
Unless you are able to show with out a doubt the average heights of non-slave Africans in West Africa compared to the heights of Slaves who survived the middle passage and then compared that to the height of black Americans at the time of Emancipation Proclamation everything you said is literally bullshit regarding height and the superior nutrition of black americans compared to whites.
Unless you can show the censuses show the height of all slaves across the U.S. you have no proof of then being taller or shorter than any other group.
You are relying on a paper trail for the "dark" side (I.e. the control factors) of slavery slave owners did not want to come to light, the same people who made up a disease of the brain that cause slaves to runaway because they could not fathom what they were doing to blacks and/or spoke of their kind treatment and love of these people they are merely bringing the word of Christ and giving them work.
Just as you cannot fathom the treatment of black people before and immediately after the civil war.
>>1181032
I'm not your personal search engine
American slavery was really shitty. Roman/Greek slavery wasn't so bad depending on what your skills were. Being a learned slave in a rich man's home was a good way to earn respect, eventually freedom, and money upon being freed. Even if not you live in the lap of luxury relative to your unskilled peers. And just having a skill like finance, writing, music, or knowing Greek and the Greek philosophers was enough to almost guarantee a bidding war of rich people trying to buy you. As such, slave condition was almost purely meritocratic. And you didn't have to worry about the larger world outside of what your master wanted you to bother with. Honestly that doesn't sound so bad. Even farm slaves were treated pretty well because the postindustrialist "bottom line" and "maximum efficiency" concepts weren't really in place yet.
>>1179363
> even though it was an objectively terrible system that they were exploited by
> objectively
I don't need to read further.
Also, it's not old Russians alone. Communism is getting popular among middle-aged people, as well. Only teenagers are stuck in the Hollywood state of "Capitalism works".
>>1182709
> which is why they all rebelled against their communist leaders and separated from the USSR as soon as possible, right?
Who the fuck rebelled, you lunatic?
>>1185607
>average black American is 1/5th European American
TODAY they are
>Also there is no such thing as consensual sex when you're enslaved
false
>do you really believe ex-slaves are going to all open up about their mothers or grandmothers being raped?
possibly
The difference between Apartheid and Marxism-Leninism was that Apartheid didn't ruin the country. It made a lot of people unhappy. Marxism-Leninism did worse.
>>1186091
They are today because their parents and grandparents on average are aswell.
Interracial marriage and unions were not likely until the 1960s, such a recent shift could not change the entirety of black American genetics.
Slaves can't give consent to their masters
This isn't BDSM.
You can't say you know the mindsets of black religious southern peoples talking to white Northerners.
>>1185627
>Unless you can show the censuses show the height of all slaves across the U.S. you have no proof of then being taller or shorter than any other group.
Unless you measure every piece of pure copper in the universe you can't say that pure copper conducts electricity!
No you absolute retard
It's called sampling
When they come up with average heights for each country, do they necessarily measure every single person? NO
They do sampling
>You are relying on a paper trail for the "dark" side (I.e. the control factors) of slavery slave owners did not want to come to light, the same people who made up a disease of the brain that cause slaves to runaway because they could not fathom what they were doing to blacks and/or spoke of their kind treatment and love of these people they are merely bringing the word of Christ and giving them work.
What are you talking about? You write like a schizophrenic
The 1.2 rape statistics came from the 1930s, from the Works Progress Administration
The height statistics came from here http://www.colorado.edu/ibs/es/alston/econ8534/SectionIV/Steckel_-_A_Peculiar_Population-_The_Nutrition,_Health,_and_Mortality_of_American_Slaves_from_Childhood_to_Maturity.pdf
>>1179423
It's completely taboo to publicly swoon about segregation and apartheid, but there the "before (segregation/apartheid) and after" pics are compelling, I gotta say. Maybe there's a parallel to post-WWII racial/immigration policies. People are irrational animals, and terrible regimes with terrible, oppressive ideologies tend to be followed by reactionary, lawless ones.
>>1181032
It means that Sowell doesn't fit his special snowflake definition of black and thus doesn't count.
>>1179363
Are you trying to link socialism with racism in order to discredit non-capitalist ideologies?
>>1179659
>Stalin's policies were around while Stalin himself was around.
The fact that their system produced Stalin at all should speak volumes to how shit it was.
>>1186344
No, but now that you mention it, yes.
>>1186118
You yourself stated that every slave in the United States was measured that did not happen. The variation of African peoples in the United States varied based on region, particular African regions dominated in say Louisiana or South Carolina or Virginia. Unless you can state the average heights of particular groups in the US to their compatriots in West Africa you have no control group to prove your claim.
The 1.2% claim does not explain the 1/5th European ancestry in black american populations.
You aren't even trying at this point to be unbiased.
>>1188675
>Unless you can state the average heights of particular groups in the US to their compatriots in West Africa you have no control group to prove your claim.
We know that height in the USA is virtually entirely a function of genetics today (there's your control), and we know that blacks in the USA are shorter than whites in the USA, so blacks are predisposed to be shorter than whites
We know that blacks during slavery were taller than whites in the USA, so this indicates that they were better nourished and had better health than whites in the USA
and we can see that black slaves were taller than free whites
>The 1.2% claim does not explain the 1/5th European ancestry in black american populations.
consensual interbreeding could
consensual interbreeding between free blacks and whites during slavery
consensual interbreeding between slave blacks and whites during slavery
consensual interbreeding between free blacks and whites after slavery
>>1185770
GB2 /leftypol/
>>1190406
You don't have the heights of all enslaved black slaves to state they were taller than White people.
Secondly you cannot consent as a slave.
Interracial unions of free people and whites was limited at best
The degree with which interracial couples occurred after slavery in the Jim Crow south was near nil.
Leaving rape.
You can't get out of this.
>>1190966
>You don't have the heights of all enslaved black slaves
What's the average height in America today?
unless you measure everyone you can't know!
>Secondly you cannot consent as a slave.
I disagree. the 1.2% figure suggests the disagree with you.
Why do you think they wouldn't say?
Black women in Africa have no trouble reporting high rates of rape and even domestic abuse in the double digits about their CURRENT FAMILY, why do you think they would lie and report 1.2% almost 60 years after being freed from slavery?
>The degree with which interracial couples occurred after slavery in the Jim Crow south was near nil.
proofs?
couples=/=interbreeding
and what about after Jim Crow?
what about blacks in the north?
the 1/5 figure includes blacks in the north too
>>1191008
Heights are recorded in medical records and/or national databases and compiled in a way that did not exist for enslaved populations in the south
The figure you state and the common narrative of rape in books speaking on then history of black Americans States otherwise.
The Jim Crow south limited interracial interactions, that was the reason why segregation existed. Sexual liaisons that were interracial in the Jim crow south could not have affected Black American genetics as a whole given that most black Americans do not have non black parents or grandparents.
Blacks in the north are mostly southern blacks who migrated north.
Do you really not know history enough to know this?
>>1179363
funnily enough my mother's side of the family comes from land owning mixed race haitians and they had many many "indentured servants" that lived on their land and worked the plantations in addition to housework.
My family were "nice" to them. Taught the males how to read and write and let the females do the house work and stay out of the sun. Pretty fucked up if you ask me, luckily my family sold the estate and its now a hospital.
>>1191042
>Heights are recorded in medical records and/or national databases and compiled in a way that did not exist for enslaved populations in the south
what are you even saying?
do all of the height statistics on the wikipedia for human height page come from the medical records of every single person in each country (maybe some do, but in most cases no). I guess they're wrong then!
>the common narrative
Jesus Christ.
"MUH STORIES"
Anecdotes aren't worthless, but they aren't as good as statistics.
"only 5.8 percent reported hearing about the rape of another slave" - that's what the statistics say about the narrative.
>The Jim Crow south limited interracial interactions
yes and not all of the USA was the Jim Crow South (only the South was the Jim Crow South)
and even then it still could happen, it was just 'limited'
and free blacks existed in the south during slavery
and whites and blacks could interbreed after Jim Crow
>Sexual liaisons that were interracial in the Jim crow south could not have affected Black American genetics as a whole given that most black Americans do not have non black parents or grandparents.
Do you have any sources on this or do you just "feel" that it is true
Even just going off your anecdote, they might _say_ that their granddad or great granddad was black, but given that "blacks" today are actually 1/5 white, how do you know that their great granddad wasn't also significantly white?
>>1191776
There is no known systematic recording of heights of slave populations in the United States of really anywhere in the New World.
You are using a small sample of ex-slaves talking to random white people from the north. If you have no concept of southern religious conduct or pleasantry than that's on you but consensual acts were not common.
The majority of Northern African Americans come from the Jim Crow South in what was the largest voluntary migration in American history aka the Great Migration.
The records and demographics of US census shows the majority of African Americans come from African American parents and grandparents.
>>1193552
>consensual acts were not common.
show that
>The majority of Northern African Americans come from the Jim Crow South in what was the largest voluntary migration in American history aka the Great Migration.
show that
>The records and demographics of US census shows the majority of African Americans come from African American parents and grandparents.
show that, and show that they're not actually part white
does the typical black person today even know they're part white?
>If you have no concept of southern religious conduct or pleasantry
I understand that someone could lie and say they weren't raped.
It could also go the other way. Someone could lie and say they WERE RAPED when they WEREN'T RAPED, to spite the former slave owners.
Now, the fact that only 5.4% say they heard about it backs up the 1.2% figure
Right, I have a concept of Southern religious conduct and pleasantry.
I also have a concept of blacks complaining a lot.
>>1195105
Google the Great Migration, I'm not your personal google engine. The numbers show the majority of black people in the north are there because of economic and social alternatives to the south in the Jim Crow era.
Black American genetic reports has show the average level of admixture for black Americans to be at about 20%.
Given our understanding of interracial unions the degree with which European admixture is present within black American communities cannot be shown to be through consensual interracial unions in the Post-Civil War era.
At this point in the conversation you really have nothing left to offer or give, we know that the degree with which black Americans have European genes is beyond the degree with which black white unions took place.
Even in pic related the numbers include legally white Latino populations of mestizo and predominately European triracial descent (Mexicans and Puerto Ricans amongst others given white status legally) which leaves only one option: unconsensual sexual relations (that is rape) in largely White male/black female combinations as noted by the 1/5th Y haplogroups being European in origin Black American men inherit before the Emancipation proclamation.
The only person complaining right now is you.
>>1182709
The fall of the USSR was mostly bloodless, barely any violence outside of Romania when it came reforming the government systems in the communist contries, and a civil war in Yugoslavia more related to nationalism than communism
>>1179363
>even though it was an objectively terrible system that they were exploited by.
>Seriously implying the Russian Federation is better than the USSR.
Nice western propaganda, pal.
And yes, I'm not sure about South Africa but there's a few fringe black nationalists in the USA that think segregation is better than racial mixing although their preferred solution would be an independent black state rather than continued segregation.
>>1195462
>mostly bloodless
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War
>>1195477
OP didn't imply that at all, you commie apologist faggot.
>>1195383
from the study you cited
"Interracial sexual contact likely peaked sometime during the early colonial
period, when white indentured servants and black slaves were in close contact in large numbers. The practice of keeping white indentured servants was on the decline and African slavery was on the rise, leading to a transitional period in which the two groups often lived and worked in close quarters. This interracial exposure at a time when folk ideologies of racial difference were still in their infancy probably produced the highest level of interracial sexual contact ever observed in this country. As Edmund S. Morgan notes, “It was common, for example, for servants and slaves to run away together, steal hogs together, get drunk together. It was not uncommon for them to make love together."
>>1179398
it was true in many ways
that's why the US had far fewer slave revolts and a lower death rate than other slave colonies where life was FAR more brutal
doesn't mean it was good though, just because you have a gilded cage doesn't make being a slave or second class citizen any better.
>>1195645
Yes, he did.
By implying they're wrong to miss the USSR, he's basing it on the premise that the current state of affairs is better than the USSR.
>>1195855
That peak was before the majority of African were sent to the new world, it also shows your ignorance because those unions sprang forth groups such as Melugeons and Redbones who left Virginia and migrated into areas where they were isolated.
The ones that remained were siphoned off into the very small free mixed race communities who did not change the overall structure of black people in America.
Again it was not common and most European ancestry comes from rape.
>>1197052
>Again it was not common and most European ancestry comes from rape.
Proof?
>>1198838
The oral history of Black Americans and the degree with which European genetics being far higher than consensual sexual relationships between free peoples in the from the early colonial period to now.
>>1198852
So, no proof?
>>1198898
Proof is in the lack of any other alternative given the finding I mentioned here along with the oral history of black Americans.
There is no other way to explain 20% European ancestry without ignoring the findings.
>>1198936
>oral history
Invalid in a literate society. Show me your """findings""".
>>1179423
>shitty periods
eww
>>1195477
>preferred solution would be an independent black state rather than continued segregation
I am inclined to agree, this is not a horrible option.
What they failed to take into account is that Liberia already exists.
>>1198940
Actually this is false.
We understand the history of Greenland and Norse exploration of North America because of bards who orally retained the sagas before finally being written down centuries later. Now with archeological evidence centuries later we can corroborate that.
In a similar way the oral history of rape and the dearth of other alternatives leaves a singular option. Rape. No other interracial interaction occurred on such a large scale other than slavery that could have effected the entire makeup of black Americans.
>>1198852
>The oral history of Black Americans
The STATISTICAL SUMMARY of black Americans who experienced slavery first hand says otherwise
The oral tradition from these people is 1.2% say they got raped, 5.4% say they knew about a rape
You keep going on and on about "the common narrative" but the quantities go against it.
>>1200047
No, you had elderly ex slaves in the 1920's discuss their intimate life experiences to northerners and are expecting all of them to discuss rape.
It's not going to happen. Thank god we have genetic research and census records show that rape was ever present and seriously effected the black American community with a 1/5th European input and a 1/5th European derived Y haplogroup.
There is no other alternative.
>>1179363
They love it because it was 2nd most powerful country on earth, people love to be a part of something great in this way
>>1201854
>It's not going to happen. Thank god we have genetic research and census records show that rape was ever present and seriously effected the black American community with a 1/5th European input and a 1/5th European derived Y haplogroup.
>There is no other alternative.
you keep saying this over and over again
you say why this could be the only explanation, by saying things like "few" and "many" and "a lot" but you never actually deal with quantities
eg
>The ones that remained were siphoned off into the very small free mixed race communities who did not change the overall structure of black people in America.
can you quantify this, can you show that this is true?
>elderly ex slaves in the 1920's discuss their intimate life experiences
but they asked "did you know anyone who got raped"
that's not that intimate
hell, it's so not intimate that it's the "common narrative" according to you
>>1179363
The King of the Zulus has explicitly stated apartheid S.Africa was better.
>>1201854
>genetic
Yeah because genetics makes a distinction between rape and concenual sex
>>1198975
>In a similar way the oral history of rape and the dearth of other alternatives leaves a singular option. Rape. No other interracial interaction occurred on such a large scale other than slavery that could have effected the entire makeup of black Americans.
Or maybe blacks and whites just loved each other consensually...
Is all historical sex between white men and black women "rape" to you? Your prejudice is showing.
>>1202858
Understandably. A regime that would upturn and fracture the social order from the top down wasn't installed after desegregation.
>>1202827
Mixed race communities and couples in the early colonial period are recorded and traced into four broad groups.
Two groups involving White women and enslaved or indentured black men became biracial groups such as Melugeons who facing increased discrimination migrate through the Cumberland gap to the frontier the second formed the basis of the free black community Benjamin Banneker being one of them but many others are recorded.
The other coupling of White men and enslaved black women was made easier since the colonial government made slave status by maternal descent. Most remained slaves, some were freed and either married into mixed race/black free communities or assimilated into white society (only in the early colonial period, one being an ancestor twice over of Johnny Depp)
Intimate as in private not sensual.
>>1202866
Census records and the degree of admixture shows the majority of European admixture occurred during enslavement. Slaves cannot consent.
>>1203993
Love does not exist between captor and captive, Stockholm Syndrome does.
Were there free couples who were interracial married or living together? Sure, but their numbers are too low to have effected blacks as a whole leaving the oral history and reality of the situation.
Your prejudice is showing since you can't seem to fathom black people stating their ancestor's reality.
Is this a thinly verified "slavs are snowniggers" thread?
>>1204035
What use is there veiling a commonly known fact?
It might seem like a latent lace to the conversation, but really there's no reason to mention it specifically.
>>1204029
So all sex between white men and black women is rape. But sex between black men and white women is okay and consensual. Got it.
>>1204029
I find it hard to believe you can't fall in love with your master, especially if they treat you fairly.
>Inb4 Uncle Tom or some other buzzword
And I'm not just talking about black slave with white master. I'm talking about a slave in general being freed then marrying their master.
Obviously there might be some psychological submission involved but a lot of slaves chose to marry their captors instead of running away.
>>1205335
u wot m8
The point is that when you're a slave, you're not really in a position to say no, so any sex between slaveowners and slaves generally falls under the definition of rape. Much of it may not fall under the more violent concept that we traditionally consider to be rape, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't coercion involved.
>>1179363
Why weren't the fountains separate but equal in quality? Wasn't that the letter of the law?
>>1198952
There are over 10x more African Americans than there are people in Liberia today.
Not to mention they're not really belonging in Liberia, they're their own thing that's decidedly American. So if a black American state would exist it's only right that it would secede from the Union rather than all the black Americans be forced to move to a tiny banana republic in Africa.
A lot of wageslaves defend capitalism.
>>1207163
Because the whole point of Jim Crow was to "get away with it." It was just a really stupid way to try and refight the Civil War. The whole thing was pointless and vindictive defiance from the butthurt South. They also used it as a way of taking out their frustration from losing the war on their "escaped slaves."
I blame the end of Reconstruction. When the North gave into Southern terrorism and bad faith public policy it only encouraged further escalation. The thing about Jim Crow wasn't that White Southerners were institutionally discriminating against the Blacks. It's that they were OPENLY discriminating against the Blacks. It was a big middle finger extended to the North and the outcome of the Civil War. Civil Rights Legislation, in turn, was the North once again fighting back and slowly grinding the South down until it cried uncle.
I can only wonder what the next struggle between North and South will be. But if the current trend holds it will be a pointless and farcical exercise in banal futility. A bad parody of everything that came before. What a stupid time to be alive.
>>1207488
Should have just let the South secede 2bh.
>>1207178
and the vast majority of African Americans wanted to stay and be full citizens not second class colonists.
>>1207488
>>I can only wonder what the next struggle between North and South will be. But if the current trend holds it will be a pointless and farcical exercise in banal futility. A bad parody of everything that came before. What a stupid time to be alive.
What other civil rights style stuff can the south and the south alone be upset about? Tumblr style social justice pisses off everybody who isn't from either San Fransisco or Portland.
>>1207626
SF is segregated and racist as fuck especially with so many techbros moving in
>>1207643
Ah Techbros.
Utterly the worst of both worlds.
>>1182812
We did that, all it did was produce some of the worst county flags the world has ever seen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia
>>1179377
same principles
>>1179363
>even though it was an objectively terrible system that they were exploited by
they objectively had better life conditions then than under glorious Putinist rule now
I'm no fan of the Soviet Union, or socialism and marxism by that matter, but this is an absolute fact
granted, everything went to shit from the late 70's onwards
>>1179363
Considering black are trying to bring segrigation back I'd say yes.
