I'm reading about Tacitus' Germania, and it's incredibly interesting reading on how these tribes, while not the "western civilization" like Rome and Greece, would later go on to successfully resist Roman invasion, but also supplant Rome itself and define almost all of north and western Europe by the early middle ages.
So let's have a thread on early Germanics.
Dick-waving is fun, and there'll be plenty of it no doubt, but I'm more interested in this from an ethno-linguistic perspective.
Until when was Common Germanic still a thing, and when did you begin to see divides in mutual intelligibility?
Tacitus describes the Ingaevones (red), Istvaeones (orange), and Irminones (yellow), which we can roughly tell as the Anglo-Saxon/Saxon, Frankish, and High German folk, but there's no description of the East or North Germans from this time.
And what of religion? Was everyone on the same canon? Were there noticeable differences in theology? Starting when?
Their dress was also interesting. Germanics were big on pants, and men often wore a knot on their head as a hairstyle. Women, and I hope I can find picture for this, often kept their hair in a spaciously knitted cap. Beyond this, I do not know what their fashion consisted of.
>>1166998
that pic looks more like slavic to me
>thinking the germanic peoples were a united people
>>1167024
No one knows because they didn't write anything down. Even for cultures with a written history most models are largely guess work.
>>1167116
they weren't but had a lot of similarities now fuck off
>>1167024
We
Don't
Know
>>1167151
So did the Indo-Aryan tribes
But Punjabi tribes were wildly different from Bengali tribes
>>1167116
They didn't have a singular nation, but most people don't. The Latins may have had their own singular nation, but their larger group, the Italics, did not either.
You can't think in terms of nations, you need to think in terms of ethnicity.
>>1166998
They didn't exactly resist Roman invasion though, Germanicus' rampage after Teutoburg kept them in check for a long time.
Those Germanic people who swooped into the Empire during the great migration period were for the most part heavily Romanized, especially the Franks who basically took over the administrative system in Gaul and spread it eastward, culminating with Charlemagne's Empire, and of course the church played its part.
So I doubt saying Europe was "defined" by the Germanic people's culture in the Early middle ages is very accurate.
>>1167212
Teutonburg forest was what happened when Romans came with the intent of conquering them.
Germanic tribes kicked Rome in the balls, but then got kicked in the balls in retaliation for retaliation against Roman subjugation, since you don't kick Rome in the balls. End result though, is that Germania is not conquered.
It's worth mentioning likewise that groups like the Salian Franks, and Gothic Germanics arrived and established themselves as the heads of formerly Roman lands in just about every way Germanic, speaking and (iirc) worshipping Germanic languages and gods. They were nonetheless Romaboos, and happily became culturally Latin. The Anglo-Saxons were just about the only Germanics that overtook Roman lands and stayed Germanic.
>>1167281
>Teutonburg forest
What happened to Germanic savagery? When you hear about their ancient history and up until the Third Reich, they seem fearful but today they are almost synonimous with nu-male c*ckoldry.
>>1167281
Germania was never conquered because it was a shitty area to patrol, very little happened on the Limes, and the Romans were far more concerned with regular issues with the East.
Arminius may have poked Rome in the eye, but Germanicus beat the Germans so horribly it took a century of everything going wrong for the Romans to even become a threat.
As for the Anglo-Saxons, well, that comes from living in an island the Romans saw as full of Celt niggers and far away from everything important.
>>1167100
Cloaks with fastened with brooches or a thorn. Underneath that short sleaved tunic worned over a long sleaved tunic. Shits cold up there
Barbarians, all of them!
>>1167610
Have you seen their porn?
>>1167639
>poked in the eye
>The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest (German: Schlacht im Teutoburger Wald, Hermannsschlacht or Varusschlacht), described as clades Variana (the Varian disaster) by Roman historians, took place in the Teutoburg Forest in 9 CE, when an alliance of Germanic tribes ambushed and decisively destroyed three Roman legions and their auxiliaries, led by Publius Quinctilius Varus. The anti-Roman alliance was led by Arminius, an officer of Varus' auxiliary forces who had acquired Roman citizenship and received a Roman military education, thus enabling him to personally deceive the Roman commander and foresee the Roman army's tactical responses.
>Despite several successful campaigns and raids by the Roman army in the years after the battle, they never again attempted to conquer Germanic territory east of the Rhine River. The Germanic victory against the Roman legions in the Teutoburg forest had far-reaching effects on the subsequent history of both the ancient Germanic peoples and on the Roman Empire. Modern historians have regarded Arminius' victory as "Rome's greatest defeat"[4] and one of the most decisive battles in history.[5][6][7][8][9][10]
Am I taking with a Romaboo?
>>1167198
>thinking the germanic peoples were a homogeneous ethnic group
>>1167686
No. Savage?
>>1167698
>homogenous
>existing
History is a long, long history of migrations and fucking the local/migrating chicks. There is no German haplotype, no Celtic haplotype, no Italic haplotype, no Slavic haplotype, etc. There are trends native to certain regions, but they are not along the cultural lines that actually influence abd shape our history and lives.
>>1167698
Ethnicity is about culture, plenty of ethnicities don't require you to have a long heritage there, and concepts such as 'passing' between ethnicities plentywise exist.
>>1167703
I'll say.
>>1167691
That doesn't change anything he said, it was a traitorous cowardly ambush that simply let Romans know what kind of savages they were dealing with. Varus should've been more careful.
Germanicus retaliation could've gone much further if he wasn't stopped by the senate and sent home with a triumph. But they decided that it wasn't worth it pushing it so far and that the Rhine was a more defensible border.
I think I'm the one speaking with a Germanboo.
>>1167722
>traitorous cowardly ambush
>hey man let us invade your home wait ow, stop hitting me this isn't fair
You can't actually think of warfare in these terms can you?
Should've, could've, would've, the point is is that three whole legions were totally wiped and Germania was never conquered when Rome tried to. I'm just about dead certain now you just like Romans on principle instead of looking at the events objectively.
>>1167730
That ethnicities oftentimes have notion that you ought to need ancestry to the region to be ethnically included, but ethnicities it's primarily based on the language you speak, foods you eat, beliefs you hold, and how you live.
>>1167738
and what does that have to do with anything? you were first to bring genetics in this.
>>1167734
>You can't actually think of warfare in these terms can you?
I totally can, since you can go further in analisying battles than just looking at the results superficially. Varus trusted the Germans and got what he deserved. It's not like Romans went there organized and faced a mighty Germanic army that couldn't possibly be beaten, they were caught with their pants down due to their superior putting too much trust in his subjugated(let's not forget this) inferiors.
>Should've, could've, would've, the point is is that three whole legions were totally wiped and Germania was never conquered when Rome tried to.
It's called "cost benefit analysis". Germanicus showed that if Romans wanted to conquer Germania even further, they could've. That's history. Point is, would've been worth it? Probably not, unlike Gaul, Germania was a poor barren wasteland full of savages.
>>1167744
Weren't you the anon that made the claim the Germans weren't homogenous, as you seemed to make me out as saying?
>>1167748
>fail to conquer Germania
>haha we didn't want it anyway
epic
>>1167799
are you 12?
the US never tried to conquer Cameroon, does it mean they can't possibly face the mighty of the Cameroon army?
>>1167753
and what does that have to do with genetics?
>>1167748
Arminius was sent to Rome as tribute and hostage, and had every reason to side with his people and land. He was not Roman, and Rome came to invade and conquer. This isn't an argument on wether or not Rome didn't have a fantastic army, it's about the results and events of Rome in Germania, of which Rome's decisive defeat abd Germania's continued freedom isn't debatable.
>>1167805
Wars and battles aren't stats comparisons from a game, they're objective based.
>>1167610
>During the Unification of Germany in the 19th century, Arminius became hailed by nationalists as a symbol of German unity and freedom.[8] Following World War II, however, schools often shunned the topic since it had become associated with the militant nationialism of the Third Reich, and many modern Germans have not heard about Arminius.[8] The 2000th year anniversary of the battle was not commemorated by the German government.[8] According to Der Spiegel, "The old nationalism has been replaced by an easy-going patriotism that mainly manifests itself at sporting events like the Football World Cup."[8]
>>1167812
I'm realizing I'm probably wrong here, but isn't this a genetic term? Otherwise, I'd simply say that the unifying language features, religion, abd governing customs do give them a certain level of homogeneity.
>>1167805
The US was stronger than Vietnam, but war isn't so simple. What matters is that the US withdrew, and South Vietnam fell.
>>1167829
Indeed it was Varus fault for trusting the Germanics, Arminius did what he had to do for his people.
The point I'm making is that there's plenty of reasons for not invading a land and more often than not they have to do with cost-benefit thinking.
What Teutoborg accomplished was indeed showing Rome what kind of peoples they were dealing with, and in particular it hinted at how costly it would've been to repeat what they did in Gallia, whose higher civilization was partly the reason why they were conquered and assimilated.
>Wars and battles aren't stats comparisons from a game, they're objective based.
Doesn't change the fact that waging war isn't just a matter of knowing if you can beat an opponent or not, it's an extreme oversimplification.
>>1167805
Please. Even after Germanicus' oh so devastating campaign Arminius force was still largely intact. Just one after the campaign, Arminius was able repelled the attack of the Marcommanic king Maroboduus.
>>1166998
Fun fact: the vast majority of Norse Paganism was written down by two Christians in the 12th century.
Like literally almost all we know of it was penned down by just two guys almost 200 years after Christinaization.
>>1167914
How did Gaul have a higher civilization, apart from Masallia and surroundings?
>>1167914
Bingo, Germanics made the cost far greater than the benefit.
>Doesn't change the fact that waging war isn't just a matter of knowing if you can beat an opponent or not, it's an extreme oversimplification.
I don't think I did say such a thing.
>>1167676
Or no tunic at all!
>>1167961
Well for one having some actual cities and infrastructure is not a small difference. Yes this was mostly in the south of Gallia with the north getting more into the semi-savage territory, but the difference with Germania was noted by Romans themselves.
Also, they were more or less organized into a smallish number of big tribes all around, and this made a top-down approach to their conquest easier. Germanics were more scattered around.
>>1167610
Football hooliganism. And they still like to punch on when theyre drunk
>>1167738
That's called culture, retard.
>>1168241
Yes, and ethnicity is based on culture, amerifriend
>>1168023
Didn't know that, always thought the Gauls in the North were kind of like the Germanics. What about the Britons?
Have you ever seen a spirit?
>>1168023
Germans had cities
