Celsus writings record that Jesus was fathered by a Roman soldier called Panthera.
So why do Christians believe that Jesus ben Panthera was fathered in pic related way?
http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html
>>1276969
>http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html
>Quoting 'prophecies' from the non prophetic parts of the Tanakh.
I'm sure there's something else Christians do that demonstrates their total lack of understanding the scripture they supposedly fulfill, but I'm having trouble thinking of it.
>>1276974
Another one which isn't on the website which I can think of is the clear link between the appearance of the dove holding the olive branch in Genesis 8:11 which symbolizes a new beginning for mankind following the subsiding of the waters after the Flood and the dove identified as the Holy Spirit in the Gospels which descended on Jesus Christ following His baptism. But since that's from a "non prophetic part of the Tanakh" I should just ignore it all, huh? All Scripture is breathed out by God (2Tim3:16-17) therefore every single passage is revelant including those which you deem irrelevant.
>>1277079
How does prophecy prove the virgin birth when independent unbiased sources show that Jesus father was the Roman soldier Panthera?
In fact the whole "virgin birth" episodes just proves the gospels were deliberately being fabricated to try and show Jesus met prophecies, the Greek speaking writers of the gospels were just trying to show Jesus "fulfilled" a prophecy that had never been made because the Hebrew for "young woman" had been mistranslated to "virgin" in the Greek manuscripts of the OT they were consulting as they made up their stories.
>>1277079
No, Genesis is a prophetic part of the Tanakh. Of course, you're going to do more than just assert that Noah's dove means the EXTRA SPECIAL HIDDEN MEANING you ascribe to it, but that's neither here nor there.
That site you linked to? 101 citations to Psalms. Almost a third of your list. Psalms wasn't written by prophets. It isn't prophetic. It doesn't predict anything. They're hymns.
That's not to say it's irrelevant, but it certainly isn't predictive, anymore than your Sunday prayers are.
>>1277156
>the gospels were deliberately being fabricated to try and show Jesus met prophecies
nice damage control
Pantera fucking rules!
Nice post, OP.
>>1277162
>psalms are just hymns
get a load of this pleb
I'd bet the author of this comic is Jewish.
>>1276944
>A historical connection from this soldier to Jesus of Nazareth has been hypothesized by James Tabor, based on the claim of the ancient Greek philosopher Celsus, who said that some Jews claimed Jesus was the result of an affair between his mother Mary and a soldier. He said she was "convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Panthera".
>hypothesized by James Tabor, based on the claim of the ancient Greek philosopher Celsus, who said that some Jews claimed Jesus was the result of an affair between his mother Mary and a soldier
>based on the claim of the ancient Greek philosopher Celsus, who said that some Jews claimed Jesus was the result of an affair between his mother Mary and a soldier
>said that some Jews claimed Jesus was the result of an affair between his mother Mary and a soldier
>some Jews claimed Jesus was the result of an affair between his mother Mary and a soldier
>some Jews claimed
>some Jews
>Jews
>>1276974
Tanakh, ew gross.
Also if you want to check prophetic passages - check the Qumran scrolls - they agree with Septuagint ( Greek ancient translation of original long lost hebrew texts ), actually all scrolls that came from before Christ birth just simply disagree with how messianic passages and written in modern masoretic text - it just shows how desperate your rabbinic cult really is.
>>1277206
In what way?
>>1277156
>How does prophecy prove the virgin birth when independent unbiased sources show that Jesus father was the Roman soldier Panthera?
Nigga, Celsus said we worshipped demons and ate babies.
>>1277257
>Also if you want to check prophetic passages - check the Qumran scrolls - they agree with Septuagint
Except they don't. Here, for instance, is a Qumrani Isiaah scroll.
http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah
Notice how it agrees with the Masoretic and not the Septuagint? Funny that.
>>1277254
Hello /pol/
It's interesting you think mortgages that enable ordinary people to buy a house are the result of a Jewish conspiracy surrounding a 2006 book.
Did you have any non-batshit crazy points that you wanted to make?
>>1277264
>Nigga, Celsus said we worshipped demons and ate babies.
You can't seriously be suggesting ancient sources shouldn't be taken at face value!
>>1277276
But if you don't take sources at face value, you won't be able to deal with all the problems in the Gospels, and then where would you be?
>>1277265
Well go to Isaiah 7:14 it reads from the scrolls you just posted - VIRGIN - yet your texts read women, because it was not comfortable - it was so obvious in there that you had to remove it in order to perpetuate your cult.
Column VI Isa
29.[{Behold}] the virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and he shall call his name Immanuel. (15) Butter [{and honey}]
Sure there are parts where masoeretic text agrees with older scrolls but not in messianic prophecies - in other aspects like when king of Sodom told Abraham to keep the horses.. in reality it's the goods.
I study the masoretic text often - because it developed in its own direction and it sometimes give an interesting perspective over some verses - but over all LXX is the core of research and faith - even Jesus Christ quoted from LXX, and he spent his whole life making chairs and tables and never wrote anything.
>>1276944
whats the source of the comic?
>>1277269
According to the bible the messiah has to be a descendant of king david. But jesus was born of a virgin who was not a descendant of david, so he can't be the messiah.
>>1277265
Hell what's funny is that in some places in LXX it's not obvious that various passages are a messianic prophecy but in Masoretic it's even more obvious... really funny.
Anyway no time or energy to care about your cult, it's small and insignificant - there are more Christian heretics today that are the real problem...
>>1277276
Every scholar takes texts that slanders a certain group with a grain of salt..
Except mister "i am gonna base my argument on an anti-christian writer that took his argument from a smear campaign by some jews".
>>1277281
>But if you don't take sources at face value, you won't be able to deal with all the problems in the Gospels
Why?
>>1277290
In other words we can ignore all the gospels as a smear campaign against Jews for claiming they were responsible for Jesus' death.
On the other hand Celsus was an unbiased Greek historian unbiasedly recording the truth.
>>1277284
Marry couldn't be a descendant of David?
>>1277282
>Well go to Isaiah 7:14 it reads from the scrolls you just posted
How can I tell you didn't look at the link? It's almost like they didn't provide trasnslations.
And let's not forget that the text in 7:14 says that she HAS conceived (literally been inseminated with the masculine conjugation) and that she WILL give birth in the future, and that the Qumrani version says that I, the speaker, (i.e. Isaiah) will name him Immanuel, which means that the kid is Isaiah's and his wife is pregnant at that moment.
So once again, the Christian is wrong. Shocker.
>Sure there are parts where masoeretic text agrees with older scrolls but not in messianic prophecies - in other aspects like when king of Sodom told Abraham to keep the horses.. in reality it's the goods.
I have no idea what you're talking about. If you're talking about Genesis 14:21, the Masoretic text gives
> וַיֹּאמֶר מֶלֶךְ-סְדֹם, אֶל-אַבְרָם: תֶּן-לִי הַנֶּפֶשׁ, וְהָרְכֻשׁ קַח-לָךְ
And the king of Sodom said to Abram, (He's not Abraham yet) "give me the souls, and of the goods take for yourself". Care to explain why you think רְכֻשׁ
means "horses"?
>I study the masoretic text often
And yet you don't seem to know its contents. That's a special brand of pathetic.
>even Jesus Christ quoted from LXX,
Yeah, it's almost like the Gospels were written decades later by a greek speaking community or something. It's totally not like they didn't have a fucking clue about the local languages. John certainly didn't claim in chapter 19 that a number of obviously Aramaic words were in fact Hebrew.
>>1277307
>Why?
Well, if you start asking questions like why don't the Gospel writers know basic facts about the geography and current religious climate of the 1st century Judea, why John can't tell the difference between Aramaic and Hebrew, why Mark misquotes extant Jewish law, why Matthew quotes nonexistant prophecies, and why he and Luke give conflicting geneologies for Jesus, and why each and every one of them gives a different claim for what Jesus's last words on the cross were, you might come to the conclusion that they weren't written by actual eyewitnesses inspired by God to be perfect. And without that, you don't have much left of a Christainity.
>>1277283
bump for sauce!
>>1277272
>identifying the antichrists makes you /pol/
Not really.
See >>1273271 >>1273327 btw.
>>1277351
kek.
Alien comes out as a raging anti-semite.
>>1277318
Damn stop - it's been 2000 years, it's awkward... please stop you're literally brainwashed - I thought protestants and bapsits were brainwashed but no... rabbinic cultists have to be the worst.
There's no reason, no facts - nothing - it's the lies you're brainwashed with and trough them you try to modify everything, alter it to suit your lies.
It's funny that you used your Hebrew text to explain a passage, really comical. Doesn't help your lost cause in any way.
In Septuagint it is written horses, your Hebrew word for fast horses rekheș have the same consonant with the word used for goods... I've actually made quite clear in first post that I said there are mistakes in LXX as well it's not the holy sacred, absolute text.
For example in 21:16 Hebrew text - reveal that mother of Hagar is crying, which is more logical considering that Ishmael was 15 years old when Abraham told them to leave his house.
In Septuagint it says that the child was crying. And this is one example that came to mind, that's why studying both texts is optimal.
You seem to underestimate power of God - He does not have to fashion a penis to impregnate a woman - He can do it with His intention, and fashion the required seed inside Mary womb.
But that was obvious - God Almighty is omnipotent.
I'm really tired, If I felt better I would've argued with you more over clarity of messianic verses in Qumran and other scrolls, I've studied it personally long time ago and I've recorded my findings in an agenda.
Maybe another day with another zealous rabbinic cultist.
>>1277353
I'm anti-antichrists.
If I hated jews I'd hate the Holy Family, Apostles and faithful early Christians.
>>1277361
Come back anytime. Take a nap. I wouldn't want you to bring less than your a-game.
>>1277368
>If I hated jews I'd hate the Holy Family, Apostles and faithful early Christians.
Oh right. So it's just modern Jews and Jews that weren't part of early Christianity you hate.
Good clarification.
>>1277381
I did not say: "the only jews I don't hate are..."
Don't put words in my mouth. Are you jewish?
>>1277361
>You seem to underestimate power of God - He does not have to fashion a penis to impregnate a woman - He can do it with His intention, and fashion the required seed inside Mary womb.
Kinky stuff.
>>1277388
Is it just me, or do they make god look like Chuck Norris?
>>1277384
>I did not say: "the only jews I don't hate are..."
No you described them as "anti-christs" defended an anti-semitic post and linked to your own anti-semitic posts in order to do so and when challenged said "I don't have a problem with Jesus and his chums".
>Are you jewish?
That makes a big difference to you does it?
>>1277361
the invisible sky magician is not real
>>1277395
>you described them as "anti-christs"
"them" ----> antichrists
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1Jn2:22-23)
>an anti-semitic post
It is my post and there is nothing anti-semetic about it. It is simply about antichrists.
>linked to your own anti-semitic posts
See above.
>That makes a big difference to you does it?
You tell me. Are you jewish?
>>1277435
>A historical connection from this soldier to Jesus of Nazareth has been hypothesized by James Tabor, based on the claim of the ancient Greek philosopher Celsus, who said that some Jews claimed Jesus was the result of an affair between his mother Mary and a soldier. He said she was "convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Panthera".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera
Is wikipedia anti-semetic?
>>1277456
>This post I made >>1277254
You made the post ranting about Jews and about how mortgages are a Jewish conspiracy to do with Richard Dawkins.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Oh dear, Alien, you are priceless.
>>1277468
>I just posted the pic in post ranting and raving about Jews
It's like you are trying to humiliate yourself! Kek. This is brilliant.
>>1276944
>Implying Yahweh seduced Mary
Yeah, no, he straight up raped that bitch.
>>1277489
He only raped her at first, anon.
>>1277477
>copying and pasting two sentences from wikipedia
>ranting and raving about jews
You're the one who's embarassing himself anon.
>>1277511
he's saying that it's from wikipedia you fucking retard
>>1277537
I don't see any Wikipedia entries about how mortgages are a Jewish conspiracy involving a 2006 book that end with "JEWS, JEWS, JEWS", my slow witted chum.
>>1277361
Wow, you got blown the fuck out and didn't have an argument, so you went straight to brainwashed.
>>1277351
I don't think the atheists claiming that Jesus never existed are the same ones claiming Mary wasn't a virgin, though it's entirely possible for both to be true.
>>1277420
>You tell me. Are you jewish?
Why should he tell you when you wont even own up to your own nationality?
>>1277310
No, it has to be through the patrilinial side.
>>1277636
My nationality isn't important; Christ and His enemies are though.
>>1277688
You are the enemy of Christ, goy.
Paul is the great deceiver and the true anti-Christ.
>>1277688
Then why is other people's ethnicity so important?
>>1277636
If you talk about nationality then it's Israelian if you live in Israel, or w/e country you were born in.
You can be ethnically a Jew - if so you desire, but being a Jewish have to do allot more with the religion - a Jew is an active member of Jewish community.
>>1276944
One of my Jew teachers talked about this
He said some Roman fathered Jesus and died in Germany
I dismissed it as Jewish lies but is this the same guy?
>>1277673
You sure?
I know Jewishness is passed through the mother not the father
>>1278332
Not him, but yes. Jewishness passes through the mother, but tribal affiliation and inheritance passes patrilineally.
>>1276944
>Roman soldier called Panthera
Do you mean Sex Panthera?
Cause 60% of the time, he's the father every time.
>>1278652
/thread
>>1276944
Panthera is a pun it mean Father in law in greek, when the jews called Jeus "Ben Panthera" they wanted to mean that he was the son of his Father in law aka Joseph, they basically denied his divine ascendance.
Because your life is irrelevant. And you care about irrelevant things.
>>1277254
This
It was a lie made up by Jewish rabbis so they could continue denying the Messiah
>>1279252
>Don't fulfill Messianic prophecies
>Do 'fulfill' vague statements that could literally apply to anyone and sentences taken from non-prophetic parts of the Tanakh.
>GUISE HE'S TOTALLY THE MESSIAH GUYS WHY ARE YOU ALL SO BLIND?
>>1279264
How could the Messiah not fulfill Messianic prophecies - there's a fallacy in your logic.
Both Isiah 53 and psalm 22 - show clearly the Messianic aspect of Jesus - look at dead sea scrolls.
What is amazing that usually some quotes used in new testament - appear to be different in Masoretic text, while the dead sea scrolls show the respective passages in the same structure LXX still holds today ( LXX being the one used by early Christians and today Orthodox Church - the only Church ).
b-but Jews and Christians aree the samme!
Jews just ignore everything after the Books of Moses!
Israel is our greatest ally!
We're all men of the same booK!
>>1277249
Fucking hell Jews will always be parasites won't they?
>>1280945
>>1280937
>How could the Messiah not fulfill Messianic prophecies - there's a fallacy in your logic.
How could a guy who didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies be the Messiah is the much more natural flaw in yours.
>Both Isiah 53
You mean the extended monologue that starts in the previous paragraph and is talking aobut the City of Zion?
> psalm 22
Psalms. Are. Not. Prophecy. They were not written by prophets. They were not put in a prophetic part of the work.
>What is amazing that usually some quotes used in new testament - appear to be different in Masoretic text,
You know what's really amazing? There are quotes used in the New Testament, from supposed authentic Judeans, which can't tell the difference between Hebrew and Aramaic, like John 19:13. It's almost like, and wait for this, the Greek written manuscripts were written by people who spoke and read Greek as their first language and used a Greek bible.
> while the dead sea scrolls show the respective passages in the same structure LXX still holds today
Except when they don't. Funny how that part always gets skipped over.
OP
>>1278652
I like those odds.
>>1278785
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Panthera
>>1276974
And who says they aren't prophetic? Modern day rabbinical Judaism? Yeah, I'm sure their opinion counts for a lot.
>>1281429
More than yours does.
>>1281429
Actually, even pre"Rabbinical" Judaism, given that with a few named exceptions, they're attributed to David, who wasn't a prophet.
>>1279264
According to Daniel 9 the Messiah was supposed to be "cut off" and to arrive before the destruction of the second temple. Do you have any other candidates you'd like to propose?
>>1281450
And why couldn't David have recieved inspiration regarding the future just because he wasn't a full-on prophet?
>>1281462
I looks like the "messiah" never showed up. Who ever would have thunk such a shocking possibility?
>>1281462
or we could say the prophecies themselves are also bogus
>>1276944
Your information comes from a known heretic disputing an obvious heretic.
>>1277156
Do you really think that a "young woman giving birth to a boy" is a sign to the world that something miraculous had happened?
>>1281491
hmm... in that situation they could go full Origen and say that the prophecies are metaphors for some deeper truth
>>1281472
So, even though Jesus showed up and was cut off exactly 483 years after the event Daniel prophesied, you think there is no messiah.
Exactly 483 years, to the day.
>>1281499
Daily Reminder that Origen is a known heretic.
>>1281494
that's not the whole prophecy
>>1281506
even so, he is constantly used to defend the idea that the church has always not taken Genesis 1 literally
>>1281514
That's the sign that was going to be given to the world.
A young girl would give birth to a baby boy.
Gee, that seems like a sort of ordinary happenstance.
So maybe "alma" is supposed to be treated as "virgin", since young unmarried Jewish girls weren't whores.
And maybe the Greek inspired rendition of almah to parthenos.
>>1281491
There's no contradiction between thinking prophecies themselves are completely bogus and pointing out that Jesus ben Panthera didn't even meet them.
>>1281528
Yes. Heretics do not take the bible seriously. Hence the accusation that they are heretics.
>>1277156
The Septuagint was a very highly regarded translation. It was not a "mistrasnlation". Either the text they were translating from actually said virgin (protip: it wasn't the Masoretic), or it was translated a la Onkelos where they translated what was known tonbe the intention of the verse. These were prominent Rabbis (70 of them) doing the translation 200 years before Christ.
>>1281514
It's one of hundreds, all fulfilled when ripe by the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.
The Seed of Abraham, the Seed of the Woman, Who crushed the head of the serpent.
>>1281534
My point is that he met them, and the people I was responding to were saying "lol but it's all bullshit anyway"
>>1281462
Daniel is also not a prophet, hence him being in the WRITINGS and not the PROPHECY section.
And he needs to have angels tell him the meanings of the visions he gets, which immediately disqualifies him from true prophethood, which is mentioned in his own book.
>>1281470
He could have. There are a wide variety of not quite prophetic but still get visions of the future "grades".
However, only a prophet gets insight into the contents of their visions, and only a real prophet has the authority to speak for God's intentions.
>>1281529
>That's the sign that was going to be given to the world
nope, this was specifically a sign for Hezekiah
>>1281528
I've heard that argument as well, but Seraphim Rose argues in his book on Creation that the Church Fathers overwhelmingly supported a literal interpretation.
>>1281529
It's a sign that's going to be given to one Jewish king. And that before this child is old enough to know the difference between good and evil, he's going to win a war.
Have you ever actually read the entire chapter?
>>1281535
i didn't realize I was dealing with a YEC. That explains a lot
>>1281551
It wasn't even to Hezekiah.
Try again. Fail again.
>>1281540
actually we have a full copy of Isaiah from the Qumran to go off of
>>1281549
Daniel recieved a vision of when the Messiah would come. You can call it whatever you want, prophet or not. His prediction came true. Jews cite him all the time regarding the vision of the kingdoms (iron, bronze etc), and they speculate on how that applies to today because they're buttblasted the Messiah isn't here yet when he should have been here a long time ago.
>>1281557
read Isaiah again. it was Hezekiah
>>1281553
Of course, which is why I know your interpretation is so dopey.
Isaiah 7
For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. The Lord will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”
Says nothing about Jesus, just what would happen before He was of age.
>>1281561
I gave you two options, dude. Either the text said virgin or the rabbis who made the translation understood that to be the intention.
>>1281546
>My point is that he met them,
Well, the post I responded to was basically admitting he didn't meet them but saying "lol have you got a better candidate?" as if pre-supposing they were legitimate and will / were somehow (be) met is a solid argument.
>>1281555
Yes, actual Christians do believe the actual bible.
Why would that be odd to you?
>>1281565
Read it once. It was to Ahaz.
>>1281563
Daniel is a forgery from the 3rd or 2nd century B.C.
>>1281568
No man in his right mind things the birth of a baby boy to a young girl is a unique event.
>>1281575
Daniel was approved by Jesus, Who referred to him as a prophet.
Try again.
>>1281569
No that was my post and what I was saying was that he DID meet them, and I was asking if they had another candidate from the period who also met them that that want to suggest.
>>1281575
Well it's a forgery Jews also believe in. Like I said I'm arguing with fello Jews or people who buy into their arguments.
>>1281576
a virgin*
>>1281578
that's just one more reason to reject that Jesus was actually God
>>1281585
Yes. That is a unique event. A male born to a virgin.
A sign to the world the Messiah has arrived.
>>1281568
>I gave you two options, dude
yeah, and as I pointed out we have a third option that is likely to be more reliable than the other two
>>1281590
You can believe whatever you want, and then pay the price thereof.
That's the way this works.
And Daniel's prophecies extend beyond your idiotic take on them; your date stopped because that's when the OT was translated into Greek.
Even then, Daniel predicted the DAY that Jesus would be cut off, centuries earlier.
THE VERY DAY.
>>1281579
Is there universal knowledge of one God? (Jeremiah 31:33, Zechariah 8:23, 14:9, 14:16, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)
Were all Jews returned to Israel? (Isaiah 43:5-6, Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 27:12-13)
Did he bring world peace? (Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
Were all weapons destroyed? (Ezekiel 39:9)
Did all warfare cease? (Isaiah 2:4)
Was the Temple rebuilt in it’s place? (Ezekiel 37:24-28 Ezekiel 40-48, Isaiah 33:20, Micah
4:1)
Did he bring physical restoration to all who are sick or disabled in any way? (Isaiah 35:5-6)
Was he preceded by Elijah? (Malachi 3:23-24– 4:4-5 in KJV)
Did the nations help the Jews materially? (Isaiah 60:5, 60:10-12, 61:6)
Does eternal joy and gladness characterize the Jewish nation? (Isaiah 51:11)
Are Jews sought for spiritual guidance? (Zechariah 8:23)
Is the Egyptian river dry yet? (Isaiah 11:15)
Do trees in Israel yield new fruit every month? (Ezekiel 47:12)
Did each tribe receive it’s inheritance? (Ezekiel 47:13-14)
Is the enemy buried? (Ezekiel 39:12)
Did he accomplish these tasks without tiring or failing? (Isaiah 42:4)
Did death cease? (Isaiah 25: 8)
Are the dead resurrected? (Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:12-13)
>>1281590
Jews cite Daniel all the time regarding endtime prophecies.
http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1735365/jewish/Why-Isnt-the-Book-of-Daniel-Part-of-the-Prophets.htm
>ruach ha-kodesh is more of a detached, factual kind of knowledge
>While the quality of the revelation is much greater in prophecy than in ruach ha-kodesh, the level of revelation reached through ruach ha-kodesh can be much higher than that reached through prophecy.
This lol Daniel isn't a prophet so he doesn't count meme needs to end.
>>1281606
Murder the Messiah.
Reject the Kingdom.
Blame the Murdered Messiah for not bringing in the Rejected Kingdom.
Don't worry, Jew. The Messiah will do all of that when He comes back. Those are all Kingdom Age prophecies that are not ripe yet, due to your people murdering the messiah and rejecting His kingdom.
>>1281613
Daniel prophesied that the most powerful man in the world, King Nebuchadnezzar, the gold head of the statues of empire, would go feral and live like an animal in the wilderness for 7 years.
And the most powerful man in the world went feral and lived like an animal in the wilderness for 7 years.
The Jews hate Daniel. Daniel's prophesies show that Jesus is the Messiah, or that there is no Messiah.
The time window is shut.
They will not see the Messiah until they say "Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the LORD".
>>1281614
I'm not Jewish or religious and trash talking me won't make the unfulfilled prophecies fulfilled.
>>1281613
i didn't say Daniel wasn't intended to be prophetic or that Jews don't accept it. but if Jesus accepted a forged document as legitimately from Daniel then that is a good reason to reject that he is God
>>1281622
They're not ripe yet because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and King.
When they accept Jesus as their Messiah and King, Jesus will usher in the Kingdom Age and all of those prophecies will become ripe.
Jew.
>>1281624
It's not forged. It's been attacked for centuries and remains a valid and genuine 6th century BC book.
When your hypothesis relies on God being wrong, change your hypothesis.
>>1281624
how is it "forged"?
>>1281625
>They're not ripe yet because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and King.
So they failed and all you have is "they will be one day!"
Top kikketty kek.
>>1281630
It correctly prophecies Alexander and his empire falling apart but then screws up events after this. this is a good sign that it was written after Alexander and tried to gain legitimacy by having a "fullfilled prophecy" but then failed when the writer actually made a real prophecy
>>1281639
Elaborate. How does it screw up? Provide a link if you don't want to type that all out.
>>1281641
my memory is a little vague actually. i read this awhile ago but here's this: http://infidels.org/library/modern/chris_sandoval/daniel.html
>>1281648
Thanks, I gotta go to class. This conversation will have to continue another time.
>>1281632
Already but not yet.
>>1281632
They were never going to be fulfilled 2000 years ago. The Jews were always going to reject the Messiah, and the Messiah was always going to offer salvation to whomever wanted it.
But everything was set up 2000 years ago so that the Jews could have accepted Him, had they so chosen.
And then neither you nor I would ever have been born, I would never have access to heaven, and you would never be on fire forever.
>>1281639
Again, your ignorance of prophecy does not make prophecy invalid.
The Messiah was cut off 483 years to the DAY when Daniel said He would be. Dying not for His sins, but for the sins of His people.
The Messiah came. The Jews blew it.
Now it's your turn to blow it.
>>1281648
>http://infidels.org
You can't be serious.
>>1281648
Seeing four immense beasts coming up out of the sea, Daniel becomes duly horrified. Now it is Daniel's turn to seek enlightenment as to the meaning of the vision, as the pagans did of him in the earlier narratives of the book. An angel explains that the lion symbolizes the Babylonian kingdom; the bear, the Median; the leopard, the Persian; and the terrifying monster with the ten horns, the Hellenistic (Seleucid).
This is bullshit. The 10 toed kingdom is the Kingdom of the Antichrist at the end times, not some small crazy man in a small crazy kingdom.
The actual 10 toed kingdom, of which the selucid empire fulfills none of its definitions, is a mixture of 10 kingdoms, both iron and broken pottery, i.e. iron of Rome, and broken pottery of democracies.
Gee, infidels.org doesn't understand the bible.
Go figure.
>>1281648
The angel Gabriel again appears and reveals that the seventy years are in reality seventy weeks of years upon the completion of which justice will be done and the temple reconsecrated. The accuracy of Gabriel's mathematics is apparently of little concern, Daniel's true interest being the last week of years, from the death of Onias III in 171 B.C. to the inauguration of the Kingdom of God in 164, which followed the roughly half week of years during which Antiochus IV abolished sacrifices and defiled the temple by placing on the altar the "appalling abomination" (or "abomination of desolation").[
This is laughably wrong. The prophecy was that 69 weeks would happen, the Messiah would be cut off, and then there would be 1 7 year period remaining that is called the Tribulation, or the Troubles of Jacob.
The prophecy started when Artaxerxes declared the Temple could be rebuilt.
About 125 years ago Sir Robert Anderson unlocked the secret of Daniel’s 70 weeks when he teamed up with the London Royal Observatory to discover that prophetic years are 360 days in length and consist of 12 months of 30 days each. This is also the only way you can make the three measures of the Great Tribulation (1260 days, 42 months, or 3 1/2 years) come out the same. Therefore the 70 weeks of Daniel consist of 490 years of 360 days each. He published this discovery in a book called The Coming Prince, a commentary on Daniel’s 70th Week.
>>1281681
>>1281671
So in other words the entire argument made by Christians in this thread is that "Jesus fulfilled the prophecies and that makes him the messiah".
And when it is pointed out he didn't you just say "he will one day".
It looks like you are going to need to go back to the beginning and make a proper argument about Jesus ben Pathera, son of a Roman soldier.
>there are still people who argue about religion on the internets
have you ever heard of cognitive disonance?
no minds will ever be changed doing this.
>>1281792
It's quite simple.
All of the ripe prophecies were fulfilled.
All of the prophesies that were not fulfilled will be fulfilled when they are ripe, because God is not slack, God does not let things slide, and God knew the end from the beginning.
>>1281804
Yes. I increase the cognitive dissonance of people who think there is no reasoning behind believing the truth.
>>1281822
Yes, it is simple.
Even acknowledging your religious beliefs about prophecies you have failed to make any sort of a concrete argument that Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies.
Trying to push the boat out further and say "it will happen one day, believe me, goy" is bullshit. This entire line of argumentation has already been debunked.
So back to start. Acknowledge OP's post and come up with a proper argument that holds water.
>>1281838
Stay with me here.
483 years after Artexerxes declared that the Temple could be rebuilt, the Messiah was to be cut off.
That prophecy was made before the King who made it was born.
And that king made a proclamation that the Temple could be rebuilt, following the Jewish captivity.
And 483 years later, to the day, the Messiah was cut off.
483 years later was Palm Sunday, Nisan 10, 32 AD. And at the end of that week, Messiah was cut off not for His sake, but for the people's.
If Christopher Columbus predicted that America would have a half black, half white president take office in January of 2009, would that not astonish you?
>>1281856
>Stay with me here.
Nope.
Already debunked.
Try a proper attack on Celsus.
>>1281858
You don't even have the man's writings.
You have the writings of a heretic debunking him.
You have the story that a century or two later, a man knew how a child was conceived.
With zero evidence.
>>1281873
>You don't even have the man's writings.
We have perfectly good evidence of his piece on this particular topic.
>>1281880
The debunking from Origen, a heretic.
>>1281883
If you're just going to start calling the people that meant your religious beliefs even exist today "heretics" then you have already surrendered any reasonable claim to be making a solid point.
