The average Athenian citizen would be more swole than the average world championship weightlifter today
Is this true, or false to an extent?
Also were the Athenians the only ones to be hyperobsessed with masculinity and working out or were other Greek city states and Persians too? What about Romans? Which ancient civilisations were and weren't /fit/?
If you've seen what weightlifters look like you'd know that's complete bullshit. You have seen their statues and paintings, Grecian beauty ideals still dominate. Not to mention average Athenian citizen wouldn't have been able to maintain the diet to build champion weightlifter bulk. I mean fuck eating meat was mostly reserved to religious festivities.
>>1156401
>Also were the Athenians the only ones to be hyperobsessed with masculinity and working out or were other Greek city states
Heavens to Murgatroyd! Don't forget Sparta!
>>1156401
The average athenian would be more swole than the average man. WC weightlifters are pretty much at the apex of nutrition and exercise while the athenians had no access to the nutrition that olympic athletes consume. They werent obsessed with masculinity, but aesthetics in general which happened to include masculinity. Sparta was more obsessed with pure masculinity while Athenians were focused on a more eclectic idea.
False.
They didn't pump themselves with steroids and lift weights all day long. They were athletic, they would look like your average professional sportsman.
>>1156401
>The average Athenian citizen would be more swole than the average world championship weightlifter today
Seriously? Not even close mate.
>>1156401
No. Modern nutrition and lifestyle allows for that nowadays. Most people were skinny, a bit shorter, but decently muscular nonetheless.
/fit/ crossposter here
They were probably extremely fit, but nowhere near as big and strong as strength athletes are today. Their physiques would probably be better compared to those of track & field athletes or wrestlers in lighter weight classes.
Athletes nowadays have unparalleled access to nutrition (seriously, you can plan out your diet to the gram of carbohydrate, fat, and protein, and do so while choosing the sources of said macronutrients i.e. whey protein vs soy protein, flax seed oil vs cod liver oil, oats vs brown rice), training equipment, and performance enhancing drugs (which the majority of world class strength athletes use).
Athletes in the past were considerably more limited in the nutrition available to them, as well as methods for training. You could pick up stones and logs, pull ropes, run, jump, throw, wrestle, do calisthenics, swim... All great exercises that will get you in great shape. They are vastly inferior to a modern weight training routine for the purpose of building strength and muscle.
The ancients had the advantage of living much more active lifestyles. Because they were shorter, they would appear more muscular since their muscles are viewed proportional to their frames, and because they ate less they were leaner.
Ultimately I would say nowadays the spectrum has broadened. On one end you'll find obese hambeasts, and on the other end you'll find freakishy fit athletes. In Ancient times, the spectrum was much more narrow.
No fucking way the ancient Athenians looked like pic related.
>>1156545
The aristocratic class surely could eat all the meat they wanted. And that is pretty much what good nutrition is.
>>1156585
The fucking thing is that Ronaldo actually does a lot of weightlifting to train explosivity and is probably not natty either.
>>1156620
Why do people always say this, "most people" are completely irrelevant in this context.
>>1156895
This Hercules is definitely at least Klokov's size.
>>1156401
Persians did something similar to this without the islamic bits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuaAahROG-0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HhWLHacjd8
It doesn't get you visually /fit/, but you become a big guy. Requires a lot of strength and endurance.
>>1156921
That's the club thing, right?
And you certainly can get plenty swole without lifting weights, early strongman didn't have much in the ways of weightlifting.
>>1156904
retard
>>1156944
Yes. Supposedly the club was a sword in the past. Most of the things they use are reminiscent to pre-modern weaponry like bows and shields.
It's way more impressive if you go to watch them in person to be honest, in youtube the spiritual part gets lost and it looks just like middle aged men doing funny dances.
>>1156954
Explain why anything I said is wrong.
>>1156904
Back then you didn't really have a scientific approach to nutrition and fitness. With recent advances in medical science we know exactly how to get ripped and as much as it may seem like totally intuitive common knowledge now back then there wasn't much of a way to know.
Sure, you could tell that meat is good and exercise is good. But that doesn't come close to how scientific our modern outlook on fitness is which makes it possible for us to get absolutely shredded
>>1156965
>"The average Athenian citizen" in OP's post
>"most people" are completely irrelevant in this context
>>1156971
Modern fitness is largely unnecessary bullshit. All you really need is to put things up and put them back down and get enough calories, most of which should be from meat, cheese etc.
Sure, this won't produce any post-1970s IFBB monstrosities, but a powerful and athletic physique like one Klokov or similar is definitely achievable using these simple principles (though not his strength!)
>>1156976
Most people weren't citizens in Athens.
>>1157016
Jesus what an obnoxious idiot.
>>1156904
>meat
>pretty much what good nutrition is
>>1156904
>The aristocratic class surely could eat all the meat they wanted
Aristocratic class with access to wealth and leisure time =/= average ancient person
>Why do people always say this, "most people" are completely irrelevant in this context.
Considering OP asked about "average Athenians", I'd say "most people" is relevant
>This Hercules is definitely at least Klokov's size.
That's fucking HERCULES, you know, a mythological character with powers of great strength? Plus, that's a fucking statue. What you're saying is comparable to future archaeologists unearthing a Hulk comic book and interpreting it to mean people were that big and strong. Klokov is also 6' ft, I doubt most ancient people were anywhere near that tall. Skeletal records suggest an average male height in ancient Greece of just under 5'4" (small sample size, but still). The average height of women in the US is over 5'4".
>>1156921
>big guy
For you
>>1156944
You can definitely get big and strong without weights, but it takes more time and effort and plateaus earlier.
Personally, I worked out seriously without touching a barbell for years starting in my early teens. Pushups, pullups, sprints, sandbags, tires, chopping wood, shoveling dirt, lifting rocks, and manual labor. I got decently fit and pretty lean, and did well when I did track & field and wrestling in high school. I thought I was strong.
That is, until I started lifting weights and had my ego checked. Despite all years of training and athletic experience, my squat, deadlift, and bench press were laughable. After just a few months of weightlifting my strength had progressed more than it had in years.
That said, non-barbell training can do wonders for you. You will get stronger, build endurance, proprioception, and other valuable fitness skills.
Early strongman had tons in the way of weightlifting BTW, even if not necessarily barbells and dumbbells.
>>1157011
You underestimate just how good our modern nutrition is compared to ancient Greece.
We are probably near 2 foot taller than your average Athenian because of how well we eat in the first world, it cannot be overstated just how much nutrition has advanced in the post-industrial world.
Literally there was a time when everyone was a manlet and getting the proper amount of calories and nutrients that we now know you need to eat per day would have been an extremely rare thing.
>>1157040
You can thank agriculture for that. Scythian men were over 6 feet.
>>1157011
If it's so simple and straight forward, why don't you post some body pics? I bet you won't, if you advocate getting most of your calories from meat and cheese... Seriously, WTF?
Also, what is "modern fitness"? The wealth of knowledge we have regarding physiology, nutrition, endocrinology, anatomy, and sports science? Cumulative hundreds of thousands of years of research by PhDs on the matter? Yeah, no, probably garbage. Just pick things up and put things down and eat lots of meat and cheese. Fucking retard.
Also Klokov pumped himself full of PEDs (not sure if he still does, but whatever), which definitely contribute to both his size and strength.
>>1157036
Probably not enough food or too much cardio, a sandbag routine focused around linear loading etc would definitely make you a big guy eventually.
Just apply weight training principles without the barbells, as you pointed out old strongmen did.
Still definitely most efficient to just train w/ barbelss though, not at all disputing that.
>>1157045
>citation needed
>>1156401
>The average Athenian citizen would be more swole than the average world championship weightlifter today
Where did you learn this bullshit? I doubt the nutrition standards of the time would allow for a body even close to a modern weightlifter. Have you seen what some of those guys look like?
>>1157054
Enough food, considering I was in my teens and grew around a foot during this time. If I wasn't getting enough food, I simply would not have grown. Too much cardio would not have impeded my progress except if it brought me into a calorie deficit, which it didn't as per my growth, both in terms of height and musculature. Like I said, I did get stronger, just not nearly as fast as I did doing barbell strength training.
And likewise, my point is that if your training is providing a lower stimulus, not only will your adaptations be slow to come, but they will also plateau earlier. To wit, ancient strength training methods could not have been as effective as modern ones.
>>1157052
I don't own a camera, nor do I have interest in having pictures of myself on 4chan.
Strength yes, size no. He does seem to do a good amount more bodybuilding than most weightlifters and seems to want to keep in good shape overall though, his size is not close to past the natty limit.
Also, what do you think you need that you can't get from meat and cheese?
>>1157067
>To wit, ancient strength training methods could not have been as effective as modern ones.
Why do you assume they were too dumb to understand the principles of progressive overload and hypertrophy?
>>1157056
https://books.google.no/books?id=l8Uy2k1srAIC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=scythians+height&source=bl&ots=jBkiBaAswr&sig=dMFdGsR_-fAmmBe-kEy-BPF7dTQ&hl=nn&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuoZOQmuTMAhWEKiwKHXKDBG4Q6AEIGTAA#v=onepage&q=scythians%20height&f=false
Piss ugly link but w/e
>>1156401
World class weighlifters have:
>GOAT training
>GOAT diet
>GOAT genetics
>fucking magical wonderdrugs that can turn women into strongmen
there's no way greeks had people on that level, and having their ENTIRE POPULATION BEYOND IT? Jesus fuck, did you read that copypasta about "raw, heaving athenian muscle" and believe it was the truth?
>>1157087
>Klokov
>not past the natty limit
I feel bad for how you're deluding yourself, if only because it will give you unrealistic expectations of yourself assuming you're not using PEDs.
Klokov also doesn't do more bodybuilding than most weightlifters, since bodybuilding assistance work has become standard practice following the success of Chinese lifters in overhead stability as well as injury prevention.
It's also not what you can't get from meat and cheese, but what you AVOID from meat and cheese. To be clear, I eat both, but I realize they are FAR from healthy foods. Depending on what kind of meat you eat, you could be ingesting lots of bad fats, chemicals that may adversely affect your hormones, and antibiotics. Wild game is fine, and lean/free-range/cruelty-free/grass-fed meat should be OK as well. Cheese on the other hand is pretty low in protein, high in salt, and is just a clusterfuck of dairy fat.
>>1157097
It's not a question of intelligence, it's a question of ignorance. The same reason the brilliant philosophers didn't understand electromagnetism or cell biology. However, the actually did, if you reference the story of Milo.
It's not an issue of understanding the principle, it's an issue of its application. Let us assume for the sake of argument that barbell training is more efficient than the means the ancients had available to them, BECAUSE it provides a greater stimulus. The body adapts in response to this stimulus. To reach and maintain its natural limit, a body requires sufficient stimulus (at an increased threshold than when one started) or else it will decline to a point where it can maintain. The lesser the training stimulus, not only the longer it takes to reach equivalency with someone receiving higher stimulus, but the limit will be achieved sooner.
Sorry I had to lay that out for you. The ancients probably weren't dumb enough not to understand it, just you are.
>>1157124
Your source has no source.
Additionally, that is ONE non-agricultural group (which does not for a moment suggest they did not consume agricultural products that they acquired via raiding or trade). The skeletal remains of nearly all pre-modern humans indicate diminutive stature.
>>1157210
Why do we assume that a barbell is the only way to achieve this sort of stimulus?
Also, what kind of meme tier bullshit cheese and meat do they have in America?
Here is the macros of regular Jarlsberg
Næringsinnhold per 100g
energi 1458 kJ (351 kcal)
fett 27 g
-hvorav mettede fettsyrer 17 g
karbohydrat 0 g
-hvorav sukkerarter 0 g
protein 27 g
As you can see, literally only protein and fats. Same with meat, all of it is grass fed. That and some vegetables, I really don't see what else you'd need, other than maybe yoghurt, kefir and a little red wine for the probiotic effects. Very greek as far as I'm concerned.
Klokov also most definitel'y does a lot more bodybuilding than what is standard, the chinese are again an outlier. Just compare this side-by-side shot with Ilya Ilyin. Though I absolutely don't think his physique is in any way unachievable natty. Being as strong maybe, but looking like that should achieveable for most people in 4 years tops.
>>1156401
They probably wouldn't be quite as swole due to nutrition and steroids but they were more well-rounded
>>1157253
Barbell is not the ONLY way, you dense cheesebrick. It it simply the most effective, as demonstrated by the emergent supremacy of barbell training in the world of strength development.
We have Jarlsberg in America.
1) It is a bland and texture-less cheese, perhaps suitable for children or the sick and elderly.
2) That are piss poor macros. That is 13 calories per gram of protein. Fat free Greek yogurt (fat free - no harmful dairy fat; yogurt - the lactose sugars have been largely removed by bacteria that use it for fuel) has 5.65 calories per gram of protein. Per protein macro, that is 230% the calorie efficient of your fucking Jarlsberg, and without the harmful fats that are also a reservoir for hormones and antibiotics.
How do you know your meat is grass fed, cruelty free, free range, and anti biotic free? I don't suppose you go hunting do you?
>Chinese weightlifting methods
>outlier
Ilya Ilyin is an outlier, terrible genetics.
OK, looking like Klokov achievable in 4 years? How long have you been training?
>>1157293
>How long have you been training?
3 years :^)
Lanklet though, therefore don't mind the extra calories, fats being bad is a meme as well. I personally am not compact enough to become Klokov-esque, but many of the shorter lads I train with are close or at that, things change a lot once you pick up a strength sport and stop going to commercial gyms.
And yes I do hunt, and the other meat I get I can go outside right now and look at the sheep and cows walking around in the fields.
As for the greeks, sure, they would not have had access to anything as efficient as barbells, but they'd still be able to use progressive overload, and let us not forget that they all train from child.
>ilya ilyin has terrible genetics
Haha yeah, ok m8
>>1157329
3 years? Great! Post pictures here in a year when you look like Klokov. What are your current lifts?
Also, Klokov is 6' ft. How tall are you that you're a lanklet?
You hunt? Why not post a body pic posing with your guns?
>no homo
Reference post >>1157210 for why training from child with inferior methods does not necessarily equate training from adolescence with superior methods. Also,
>implying olympic weightlifters don't train from child
And aesthetics genetics =/= performance genetics
>>1157346
>Also, Klokov is 6' ft. How tall are you that you're a lanklet?
198cm, I don't WL (YET), my powerlifts are 210/145/240.
Again, literally do not own a camera.
But if it is so, that such a physique is unachievable without barbell training, where do all these ripped statues come from? These depict physiques with athletic developed surely equal to someone like Klokov, wouldn't you agree?
>>1157385
>Where do all these statues come from?
Where do all these pictures come from? Pic related
It's art. You can make it look like whatever you want.
And no, I don't agree that this athletic development is equal to Klokov. Proportionately, perhaps, but this is actually fairly easy to obtain if you are under 162cm.
Decent lifts bro. Maybe in a year you can compete internationally like Klokov.
>>1157424
Forgot pic
>>1157040
Infectious diseases, particularly regular bouts of bacterial infections from unclean water had a lot to do with smaller sizes.
Nutrition for aristocrats was probably better than what most people eat today. They just need antibiotics and not to get measles, etc.
>>1157475
>Nutrition for aristocrats was probably better than what most people eat today. They just need antibiotics and not to get measles, etc.
Jesus, what can I do to help dispel this myth?
It really wasn't. In terms of the availability and variety of crops? Not great. They may not have eaten junk food, but while a narrow diet of healthy staple crops will keep you reasonably healthy it will lead to micronutrient deficiencies.
Among other things. The ancients also drank WAAAY too much. Like holy shit, too much.
>The guy thinking klokovs physique is in any way achievable naturally
He has huge 3d delts, is vascular as fuck and has abs at 115kg at 180 cm. If you believe this is natty you are retarded.
>>1157497
>The ancients also drank WAAAY too much. Like holy shit, too much.
Well you either drank wine or beer or got sick in the dank civilized south.
Forgive me if i'm wrong, but aren't Greek Statues more like an "exaggerated realism" rather than proper realism?
As in, those statues of heroes and champions were made with fucked up proportions that magnify their body qualities to seemingly unreachable heights
>>1157514
>115kg
He's 105kg.
>>1157521
Perfect would be a better term than exaggerated.
>>1157550
Watch the newest YouTube videos, him and the athletes weigh themselves daily and he is about 114 kg.
>>1157521
That's right. A statue of Hercules isn't going to look like Pyrros Konstanos the fishmonger from down the street, it's going to look like a fucking >Greek God
>>1157497
You do realize that most people in the first world eat variations of processed corn and wheat for 90% of their calories.
Over 70% are overweight, more than a third obese. It's not hard to be better off provided you didn't die of disease.
>>1157253
It's crazy how DYEL Ilya looks even though hes fucking GOAT. Both those men are incredibly strong though, it baflles my mind
>>1157587
If Pyrros Konstanos had a statue, so would be.
Classical and Hellenistic sculpture, but Classical/Late Classical especially, was about idealized form. So everybody got an amazing chiselled body.
However, just because the average statue is exaggerated, doesn't mean they weren't still ripped. You don't just magically learn how to sculpt >>1157385
>>1157097 >>1156904 without a model who has those muscle groups developed.
And make no mistake, Greek sculptures used live models.
This is the best explanation in the thread: >>1157277
Your average citizen wrestled, farmed, fought, rowed their way into fitness that the average modern person will only ever dream of. Modern athletes likely do not compare overall, only excelling in a single discipline or maybe two.
Maybe the best sports athletes would be comparable to the most fit Athenian or Spartans or what have you. Track&Field guys would not compare.
But with regards to what this thread has devolved into: modern weight lifters are far and away stronger than anybody could be in antiquity (at comparable height/weight anyways).
