Three alt history questions.
Has Stalin died in november 1941 and had USSR collapsed, how would WW2 continue? If at all?
Would USA have the will to try and subdue unfettered Nazi Germany?
Would Britain fall?
>>1151136
Unless the Soviets not entering the war suddenly gave Germany a large surface fleet and larger Air Force, no, nothing changes except that the war lasts longer.
>>1151148
What if soviet supported Germany and nazi . I know it is very unlikely to happen .
>>1151161
They did support them until the Nazis decided it was time to take clay.
There is no way of knowing.
Also seeing as Britain did not fall in 1940 in an arguably much worse position, why would they fall now.
>>1151148
Interesting stance. Do you think USA are capable of withstanding lossess in millions?
>>1151166
non aggression pact does not equal support. pls lrn2history mate. almost every german neighbor had signed a similar agreement.
>>1151161
If Slavic people werent considered undesirables by the nazi regime, slavic ingenuity would have given wings to german superior technology. the yankees would have probably turned to the chinese for swarming tactics in order to retake europe.
>>1151197
The losses would have 1 or 2 million at most. You have to understand that the losses the USSR suffered in the east were due ultimately to Stalin being a paranoid asshole who purged his own military for political reasons.
There's also the fact that the Germans would need large numbers of soldiers in eastern europe regardless simply because of what they planned to do there.
>>1151261
>You have to understand that the losses the USSR suffered in the east were due ultimately to Stalin being a paranoid asshole who purged his own military for political reasons.
I suspect about a third of *all Soviet military dead of the war* being those dying in German captivity a much more immediate reason.
>>1151243
>Slavic
Russian and Polish*
>>1151271
Do you really think that so many soviet soldiers would have ended up as POWs in the first place if they had competent leadership? There's really no getting around Stalin being a dumbfuck who hobbled his own military.
>>1151231
The soviets invaded poland right after the nazis did, that's not just a non-aggression pact dude.
>>1151275
And Ukrainian and Belorussian and Serb...
>>1151289
Poland?
By 17th of September there was no government in Poland, they've left their people behind and ran away to Romania. USSR just stepped in to save the population of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus from the Germans.
>>1151315
>And Ukrainian and Belorussian
AKA Russian.
>>1151284
That is of course true but you have to take into account the fact that about a third of these Soviet casualties were caused by Germans deliberately letting them die. They were not 'same ratio of dead POWs, only more of them in total because we totally rekt them cuz Stalin is dumb'. These were 'outlandishly high numbers of dead POWs because we let them starve and die of exposure'. The losses the USSR suffered would be noticeably lower had it not been for that factor.
>Hitler LITERALLY DIDN'T ally with slavs
chinks, daigos wowowow who said anything about my similar phenotyped neighbors?
>tfw Hitler just fucked up my 1000 year reich
>>1151333
Soviets were actually very altruistic and just misunderstood. Just because it looks like a land grab doesent mean it is one if you spin enough bullshit around it.
>>1151356
>Hitler LITERALLY DIDN'T ally with slavs
He literally did.
>>1151380
Slovakia(he considered Slovaks to be Hungarians - not slavs) and Croatia(who were outside of the lebensraum anyway) are the only slavs he allied with outside of banderites, but it's really not fair to put millions of brave Ukrainian patriots who fought the nazi occupation and genocide together with banderites who took part in said occupation and genocide.
>>1151395
You forgot Bulgaria.
>>1151398
Bulgars are slavicised turkic people. Whether they are more slavs than turkic isn't really relevant as that's what Himmler(the key character behind Germany's racial policy) thought about them.
>>1151395
>Slovakia(he considered Slovaks to be Hungarians - not slavs)
[citation needed]
Stalin dead wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war necessarily, he was not the most competent military leader anyway and caused unnecessary deaths to the red army at the beginning of the war.
Assuming Stalin is killed and the Germans are still defeated, what does post-war Europe look like?
>>1151261
Here is statistic:
Before Great Purge Red Army had ~206,000 officers.
During Great Purge:
9,506 were purged (shot or sentenced to gulag)
18,822 were fired, but later 9,121 of them were restored.
So Red Army lost only about 10% of officers.
15th June 1941 Red Army had 439,143 officers.
It’s clear that Purges didn’t undermine power of Red Army so much.
>>1152326
Yeah, but most of the purged were high-rank officers, division commander and higher. At the beginning of the war there was a shortage of qualified high-ranked officers in the Red Army as a result of purges. The one who remained did so because of their personal loyalty to Stalin, not because they were competent, and that resulted in big mistakes and huge losses of the first two years of the war.
>>1151395
Croatians, so the Germans and Ustache decided, were Goths, not Slavs.
>>1151361
> Stalin's stupidity
Stalin was one of the smartest people of his time. Though even the smartest people do mistake. Stalin's another strong point was that he could acknowledge own mistakes and correct them.
>>1152390
>>smartest people of his time
>>makes a deal with hitler to buttfuck eastern europe thinking it won't backfire on him
>>smartest
You have a very peculiar definition of the word smart.
>>1151534
>he was not the most competent military leader
The first thing you need to won the war is strong and competent State Leader and Stalin was that man.
>>1152447
>makes a deal with hitler
Who didn't?
>>1152457
1. I don't consider chamberlain to be all that smart either
2. There is a difference between a peace treaty and what the soviets did with the germans prior to german armies invading the USSR.
>>1152348
Did Brits and French lose in the beginning of WWII also because of purges? Most purged Soviet general didn't have real combat experience in modern warfare anyway. Many of them were incompetent like Tukhachevsky. Many were disloyal and could betray like Vlasov actually did.
>>1152447
Smart is a man with high intellect. He can have morale and ethics different from yours but still be smart.
>>1151380
Didn't he consider Bulgarians some sort of aryans or something?
Objectively speaking: Could one assume the Communists would've run down all of Europe had Hitler launched a preemptive attack on them?
>>1152455
Molotov probably would have succeeded Stalin and he was pretty competent himself.
>>1151333
Yes, the Soviets were good bois who dindu muffin.
>>1151136
If nazi germany won they would have lost to money eventually.
Had the ussr fallen you would see post khanate-esque states headed by either communists of different families mixed with other states of different ideology.
As for the reich any states leftover would have either been absorbed or with the german economy so taxed by war, only be reduced to tributaries.
Britain is a fortress and would be untouched. You would need to burn the island to the ground.
And with how far away germans where to nuclear bombs setting britain on fire would not be feasible.
>>1152575
The British lost because they didn't plan on fighting a war in the first place. French lost because they were planning on fighting previous war again without having learned anything.
There are strong evidences that general Pavlov, commander of Western military district (Belarus sector) in 1941 was a traitor. His orders can't be explained just by mistakes or incompetence. Soviets had really many enemies inside. It was only 20 years since Civil War, but internal struggle didn't end after it and among elite there were many of those who didn't believe in communism. Without purges the situation could became much worse, especially in war time. Soviets really started to rot later when their elite had stopped to use hard methods to maintain self-discipline and self-control.
>>1154347
Germans wanted the war so they were prepared for war better than their opponents. That's why they were successful at first.
>>1151161
supported them in genociding them? how exactly?
>>1154347
Where did the british lost exactly?
>>1155875
In the beginning of the war, as in in France. Just follow the post chain.
>>1155881
Still, the mainland was far from being taken over, when hittler was bombing england the war was pretty much lost for him imo, its a really tough for him to invade and take over england without meeting resistance and sustaining big losses, maybe he shouldve stayed there instead of invading russia. There is still the fact that russia knew of his plans to invade and would prepare for that, maybe just taking over england and "stopping" the war for a while to recuperate his losses before going to russia was a better plan, unless russia invades germany and breaks the pact, (like it probably would). And there is also another problem, a nuclear one...
>>1155896
I always think about how would germany win the war and possibly build the biggest empire the world has ever seen, possibly taking over australia and the americas, but I can never come up with a solution to his problems
>>1155904
Because there really wasn't one, Nazi Germany was fucked from the start due to their relatively weak economic position compared to their adversaries and also due to their insane racial ideas.
If Soviet Union had lost would not Germans moved further by land conquering Middle East, Iran and India? And together with Japanese they could take all Eurasia under control. What impact it would make on British economy?
>>1156018
But how could germans have won against russia, they were suffering major losses due to the winter and famine and the soviets had way too much economy and man power to spend
>>1156028
They were occupying russian territory for years before they got pushed out of it. They had more manpower then you think, all they really needed to do was take moscow, and a few other important cities and the russians would have had to seek peace terms.
>>the soviets had way too much economy
The soviet economy could focus on the production of war material like it did due to extensive foreign aid, without that aid the Soviets simply can't launch the mobile counteroffensives that took place in 43-44. They would have been facing more resistance from the germans as well if the US and Britain weren't invading italy and france at that time as well.
>>man power to spend
Oh yes, they were spending manpower by the truckload, to the extent that even in the latter days of the war where they had tremendous military advantages they were still suffering disproportionate casualties compared to America or Britain.
>>1156018
>>Germans moved further by land conquering Middle East, Iran and India?
This isn't possible. Too much land with too many enemies to fight.
>>And together with Japanese they could take all Eurasia under control.
Japan is getting skullfucked by a star spangled cock regardless of what Germany does.
>>1155904
Just don't delay Operation Overlord and the war suddenly takes a very dramatic turn. German forces were within 40 miles of Moscow when the Russian winter set in, I imagine they would have taken the city with an earlier start and with less Soviet preparation. After that it's a matter of securing the rest of Soviet territory west of the Urals in a spring/summer campaign in '43. If Germany can take either Caucasian oil or Arabic oil in a timely manner then Japan has no reason to attack the USA, keeping the war on a single front until the German war machine is ready.
>>1156048
Ok, I might be saying jibberish here, since I didnt study history in school and I only have a small class about history in university, but considering how big the soviet union was, didnt they have enough man power to keep resuplying their army in moscow and stalingrad
>>1156055
What enemies? Only British Empire. Turkey would sign a pact with Germany becoming friend in exchange for some territories. The same with Iran. Reza Shah didn't want to help the Allies and was deposed. At least Middle East could be take easily.
>>1156056
>don't delay Operation Overlord
what?
>>1151136
>Has Stalin died in november 1941 and had USSR collapsed, how would WW2 continue? If at all?
Likely the Nazis would install someone like Vlasov as a puppet
>Would USA have the will to try and subdue unfettered Nazi Germany?
No. They would see little need to either, beyond liberating France and Poland.
>Would Britain fall?
No. She would sue for peace long before the Germans could mount a credible invasion. Even if Churchill refused to accept any terms, he'd be ousted eventually. If Hitler threw the liberation of France (under Petain) into a "peace with honor" deal, Britain would be obliged to accept it, not least by the USA and French.
>>1156076
Most of the population lived in European part of USSR. If European part is occupied then it's over.
Stalin dies USSR goes to shit and collapses. Hitler takes USSR and sweeps south to take oil fields in middle east. Hitler traps US and Brit forces in North Africa and either forces them out of North Africa or crushes them like Dunkirk. After this Hitler worries about Britain and US. US skull fucks Japan and with aid of allies either stops hitler and detroys third reich or Germany controls Europe and Middle East and US controls western hemisphere and pacific and the war just last a long ass time.
>>1156056
assuming you mean barbarossa, you do realize that it had started as early as possible and when weather and logistics permitted?
furthermore the idea that the germans would roll fifty kilometers closer to moscow and suddenly occupy it - instead of bogging down for months in savage urban combat - is laughable
>>1156150
if hitler has power over europe and russia, there is no need for America and England to fight him as long as he backs the fuck out. Since he would have such a great empire I dont think attacking him would be such a great choice, you know since comunism is dead and doesnt pose a threat against them. their important business would be freeing france and probably poland. Plus this is assuming he can maintain controll over his empire, despite the resistances and all
>>1156150
how would the ussr just fall after stalins death
>>1156180
It wouldn't unless successor is someone like Khrushchev.
>>1156101
Yeah dude? Neither Turkey or Iran are capable of fighting against the British and American forces that will be deployed against the Germans.
>>1156150
Germany beating the soviets doesn't mean they can just overrun or trap US and British forces in north africa.
You have to understand that Germany has sweet fuck all for a surface fleet in comparison to the American and British navies.
>>1156287
Turkey and Iran are needed only to provide rear support and logistics. Without Soviet Union fighting Germans have huge land army that needs work.
>>1156367
>>Turkey and Iran are needed only to provide rear support and logistics
Oh look, targets for american and british airforces.
>>Without Soviet Union fighting Germans have huge land army that needs work
That huge land army will by heavily bogged down in carrying out the insane nazi racial policies in eastern europe.
>>1151136
>Stalin died
>USSR collapsed
What? how?
>>1156434
>le rotten house tumbling down
>>1156422
>Oh look, targets for american and british airforces.
OK, but you should base those allied air forces out of reach of German land forces. Where? And you can't focus on bombing Germany and Japan if you bomb Turkey and Iran.
>That huge land army will by heavily bogged down in carrying out the insane nazi racial policies in eastern europe.
They had Hiwi for that purpose.
>>1156160
Yeah, Barbarossa. My bad. Regardless, the invasion was delayed by two months or so IIRC because of the situation in the Balkans. When the attack was launched it sent the Soviet Union into a massive retreat that was punctuated by battles that Germany won handily. The only think that slowed the German advance down was the muddy season and, eventually, the uncharacteristically cold winter of 1942, issues compounded significantly by the overextension of German supply lines. Each one of those problems built on each other to give us the historical situation, and the extra time they would have had would have meant fewer Soviet forces and less Soviet materiel ready and mobilized and more time to solve the logistical issues of mud, cold, and supplies. Worst case scenario, Germany rolls into Moscow and creates a second meat grinder similar to Stalingrad, draining the Soviet Union tremendously. Far more likely is that Soviet forces are forced to quit the city and regroup around the Urals with whatever heavy industry they were able to relocate, as Stalin prioritized safeguarding the Soviet war machine in the beginning of the war.
>>1156474
>>OK, but you should base those allied air forces out of reach of German land forces. Where?
Oh I dunno, behind the Anglo-American ground forces in the ME and on the British Isles, for example.
>>And you can't focus on bombing Germany and Japan if you bomb Turkey and Iran.
You have exactly zero idea how much industrial and military capacity that the US and the British Commonwealth have put together.
>>1156474
>And you can't focus on bombing Germany and Japan if you bomb Turkey and Iran.
The Western Front was won on the wings of bombers. Turkey and Iran's industrial outputs are insignificant compared to Italy and Germany's, Allied bombing would be able to take their capacity without any issue.
>>1156474
>They had Hiwi for that purpose.
>>slavs carrying out the genocide of other slavs.
lol, and there weren't enough of them to carry out the german racial policy in eastern europe anyway.
Just to keep this post going, a question.
If hitler knew he would loose the war at moscow and stalingrad while he was fighting the brittish, what could he have done and could he have won the war?
>>1156655
divide et impera
You use first group to exterminate the second group, then use the third group to exterminate the first group an so on. In this case it's different ethnics groups. You tell them that their group is chosen one, will command other groups and that they are friends of Germans, but it's all a lie. If not enough Hiwi, you can use troops of you allies.
>>1156766
Yeah no, this shit isn't feasible. People are stupid, but not THAT stupid. The ukranians went from being wary supporters of the german invasion to being heavily opposed to it pretty damn quick.
>>german allies
yeah no, the idea that there would be enough italians, romanians, hungarians etc to carry out this plan and also defend there own and german territory from American and British attack is facile. The european axis has neither the resources nor the manpower to triumph over america and the british commonwealth put together.
>>1156621
Bomb Turkey and Iran from British Isles? It will not work obviously. And if you have ground forces on par with German why use them in Middle East and not invade continental Europe. In reality Anglo-American waited few years while German army was weakening in battles on Eastern front.
