Did this man indirectly make abrahamic religions?
>>1142755
Before the christards and jewish apologists rush in to try and claim otherwise, the answer is yes
Now for some popcorn.
It's probably more like humans chimps.
People think that evolution means humans came from chimps.
The reality is that there's a common ancestor.
The monotheistic religions of the Near East probably descended from Canaanite religion.
>>1142886
but Zoroastrianism is from Iran
No. Zorastrian monotheism (it is polytheistic in the early texts) is clearly a product of Judaism, they got it after the occupation. The Jews painted their God as the only true God, and all other deities as evil, this is not part of Persian thought, they had not hostility to other gods as evil, and yet for some reason it's reflected in their eschatology. Then you have the Messiah (the virgin birth detail wasn't added in Zoroastrianism until long after Christ), some noble conqueror who rescues the virtuous from an evil world is clearly the hope of a people oppressed and kicked around, it doesn't come from the most successful empire of its time, the most successful empire of its time almost surely picked up the concept from the hope of the kicked around, not vice versa. Anyone who looks purely at the psychology of the cultures here can see where the eschatology came from.
>>1142926
Quit shitting up the board cunt.
>>1142926
fuck off. you've been BTFO'd twice on this subject in the past few days
>>1142939
What are you talking about? I've had people differ with me, but literally no one presented any argument whatsoever that Judaism is derivative of Zorastrianism, except pointing out that their eschatology is cognate.
>>1142846
Amen
>>1142755
The thing I can't fathom is why people ask questions without providing the name of the person in the photo or painting. Z. Who is Z? Looks like Admiral Elmo Zumwalt to me. Just golly. Efram Zimblast maybe or his granddaughter Stephanie?
Zachariah. Sure.
IT WAS EZRA!!! The redactor
>>1142926
>he's still trying literally days later
The mark of maturity would be admitting defeat and moving on.
>>1142961
not by your standards. but you a priori assume that Judaism wasn't influenced by Zoroastrianism. nothing will prove it to you. you are no better than the fundies
>>1142991
You assume it was.
>>1143012
absolutely not. my belief that Judaism wasn't inspired by Yahweh doesn't hinge on this specific element of its creation
>>1142991
I assume they are cognate. From beyond that, I assume nothing one way or the other, but I look to arguments for which influenced the other. I've given argument, the other camp has provided literally none.
>>1143022
So then you believe you have acquired proof that it was?
>>1143030
now you are just lying. plenty has been provided against you. you have literally fled the threads when arguments came that you couldn't refute and then went on to the next threads without addressing them
>>1143055
No, literally nothing has. The arguments made were over whether Jewish prophecies were reinterpreted as metaphors to fix their inaccuracy, which has zero to do with this topic.
>>1143066
yes it does, you claimed that the prophecies involving Babylon proved that they originated before the Persian period. that was your sole piece of evidence and it was refuted
>it's a history has to conform to my religious beliefs tripfag episode
>>1143081
Please show me where that was refused, link me to the post.
>>1143129
*refuted
>>1143066
Kek, the word "Nevi'im" doesn't even have anything to do with prophecy, looks like Constantine can't into basic etymology and is basing his religious belief on improper readings of the Old Testament
>>1143030
Literally everything you say is wrong. Like, you just say a long stream of bad, false statements about history, archeology, philosophy, religion, the whole works. Why do you keep acting like some authority, why do you keep your identity?
You're a shitposter extreme
>>1143140
*her
don't misgender my orthodox waifu, shitlord
>>1143151
fuck off, they're a mentally ill person who has probably reinvented themselves and burned through five trips already after being btfo for not knowing anything and rehashing any shitty argument in favor of their *tipsfedora* le edgy hipster christian beliefs
>>1143140
I'm guessing you haven't read them.
>>1143164
I have read them, literally nothing in the entire old testament says anything directly about the old testament having "prophets", it all depends on christians interpreting one single passage and extending it really far
like this isn't even debatable, most jews don't even believe they were prophets, and anyone who believes they are is using a shitty translation by people who believe they were, with the validity of such a belief being justified only in that everyone else calls them prophet too.
your belief that they are prophets is a prime example of the christianization of western scholarship leading to false beliefs being widespread
>>1142755
Then why isn't Zoroastrianism labeled as Abrahamic?
>>1143171
How would you translate the word, if you don't mind my asking? And is your translation generally preferred by Jews?
>>1143177
It means "speaker", as in speaker for God, as in what a religious figure does at the lectern.
You claim they were doing what Nostradamus did.
>And is your translation generally preferred by Jews?
It's so much the only translation that no good (i.e., historically rigorous) book of the etymology of Hebrew contains any reference to Navi as prophet, because it doesn't exist anywhere in the language in that sense.
>>1143185
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prophet
>>1143172
"Abrahamic religions" refers to the religions that recognize Abraham as a central prophet in a line of prophets sent by Yahweh. That's the key feature, although accompanying ones are the worship of the Israelite tribal storm and war god Yahweh and a historical "descendancy" from Judaism.
Zoroastrianism doesn't give a fuck about Abraham or Yahweh. Babylon subjugated Israel. Persia came along and beat up Babylon and let the Jews go (or, rather, the Jews just went home, because the Persians didn't give too many fucks about one of the hundreds of tribes the Babylonians had subjugated). The Jews adopted many theological aspects of Zoroastrianism, which had several similarities to the nascent henotheistic ("there's many gods, but we only care about X") cult of Yahweh. There was only a theological transfer from Zoroastrianism to (what would become) Judaism, there was no transfer from Judaism to Zoroastrianism.
Then Christianity came from Judaism (Which had evolved since the time of Cyrus), then Islam came from them, then Mormonism, Rastafarianism, Babism, Druze, and Baha'i came along.
>>1143188
>Merriam-webster
>accurate etymology
kek, no.
If a Jew ever uses "prophet" in reference, what they mean is certainly not absolute predictions about the future in a weblike scheme of hidden truths in the Bible that necessitates certain events. They use it in some loose sense, where you could say Nietzsche was a prophet in his warnings to Germany about militarism and antisemitism
Or you could try talking with long-term Jewish families, which is how I learned about all of this. Jews have many good reasons to laugh at Christians because Christians pretend the Hebrew texts justify their belief systems.
>>1143207
>Daniel 9:26
>Luke 19:44
Their loss
>>1143221
Dunno, why don't you look up what scholarship not based in hundreds of years of Christian society has to say?
>implying you understand the Hebrew or are even capable of reading the nuances in certain verses
>implying you're not dependent upon interpretations of people who have a strong bias
Your loss
>>1143229
A Christian charity
>instution to provide for the needy
Jewish charity
>an institution to provide for Jews and Jews only
Who fulfills Isaiah 49:6?
>>1143233
Oh, sorry, I thought you were a person who was serious intellectually. My mistake.
Please stop shitposting when you're ignorant and wrong, and let people know you're an idiot before involving them in debate.
>>1143205
Tl;dr Zoroaster was a Christian just like Moses.
>>1143240
But thousands of filtering and modification of the texts didn't occur anon, we got the entire accurate version of the stories through totally genuine sources!
oh my god poor fellow constantine is back
>>1143237
I have here a Tanakh, here is a translation of Daniel 9:26
>And after those sixty-two weeks, the anointed one [literally "Messiah"] will disappear and vanish*. The army of a leader who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but it's end will come through a flood. Desolation is decreed until the end of the war.
*it says in the notes "meaning of Hebrew uncertain", although that's actually a lie: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%AA
>>1143246
All I know is that Zoroaster was a Christian.
>>1143260
>*it says in the notes "meaning of Hebrew uncertain", although that's actually a lie
kek according to some loser nothing on 4chan
you do know messiah isn't some special word in the ot right? literally cyrus the great is called messiah
>>1143284
>le loser nothing on 4chan meme
Some of us are normal people with families who browse /his/ for knowledge
>>1143260
Here is another Jewish translation: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16492
>nd after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.
>>1143284
>kek according to some loser nothing on 4chan
No, according to wictionary
>you do know messiah isn't some special word in the ot right?
It is when in the context of a new covenant, which the next verse talks about
>>1143290
Yes, but Constantine is not one of those people.
>>1143291
>And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.
Really? This to you justifies all the bullshit about Jesus existing?
You have to interpret so much stuff to even get close to read that in terms of Jesus
This is pathetic
>>1143298
>No, according to wictionary
No, that's not what Wiktionary says, Wiktionary is offering a translation of a word.
>>1143304
I think what's bothersome is that you are intentionally misrepresenting Jewish beliefs. You KNOW they believe that the Destruction of the Second Temple is foretold, and that the Messiah is supposed to rebuild. Your resentment of Christianity is so enormous that you are willing to misrepresent your own faith (or former faith) just to discredit Christianity.
>>1143318
Which is the word in question without the prefix.
>>1143328
>You KNOW they believe that the Destruction of the Second Temple is foretold, and that the Messiah is supposed to rebuild. Your resentment of Christianity is so enormous that you are willing to misrepresent your own faith (or former faith) just to discredit Christianity.
Yeah, and they also don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, nor do many (I assume some?) take prophecy to mean the same. Don't equivocate.
>calling me a Jew
I'm an atheist raised Christian.
>Your resentment of Christianity
I don't have resentment for the religion, I have resentment that your massive steaming pile of bullshit goes unchecked on here. Just stop acting like you're some fantastic philological scholar when you're not. You're just some neoreactionary tool who picked an edgy sect of Christianity ans read a book or two on it and spend your time shitposting.
>>1143332
Right, which makes no reference to any debate on the word's meaning. Are you really just going to give a tacit assumption that Wiktionary is an authority on Hebrew?
>>1143351
>take prophecy to mean the same.
The certainly think the Tanakh includes predictions about the future, that is where they get their whole prophecy of the Messiah and the rebuilding of the Temple
>>1143351
>Are you really just going to give a tacit assumption that Wiktionary is an authority on Hebrew?
I'm going to take an explicit fact that it's the translation used through Tankahs by Jewish scholars, and in fact used throughout the one I quoted except in that particular context. If a word is unknown in Hebrew, it's generally a hapax legomenon, which that certainly is not.
Rather than discussing Constantine's dillusions and conspiracies here's a question.
How do we take this based religion and boost it's number?
>>1143378
We don't. Its own members don't even care about self-preservation.
>>1143378
>The certainly think the Tanakh includes predictions about the future, that is where they get their whole prophecy of the Messiah and the rebuilding of the Temple
It's dubious, many religious Jews I knew were pretty skeptical/ambivalent toward that reading, and were open to alternate readings. I never interacted with extremely religious Jews so I cannot say from personal experience but it seems many do.
In the case of religious Jews, you can simply point out that they interpret the same texts as Constantine and come to starkly different conclusions with good reasons. Constantine just wants to pretend they've found the answers and do some edgy deus vult roleplaying.
>I'm going to take an explicit fact that it's the translation used through Tankahs by Jewish scholars, and in fact used throughout the one I quoted except in that particular context. If a word is unknown in Hebrew, it's generally a hapax legomenon, which that certainly is not.
To be honest I have no idea the significance of which word we're even talking about, because I really highly doubt the translation of some random word will somehow retroactively align every belief Constantine has about interpreting the Old Testament and make them sensible.
>>1143392
The parsees actually are the only group who didn't openly mix nor convert in the entire globe, and they preserve the sources pretty good. I don't see how they "don't care their self-preservation".
>>1143407
>The parsees actually are the only group who didn't openly mix nor convert in the entire globe
That's literally the exact reason their numbers are plummeting.
>>1143412
If you care, then go follow the religion and learn the texts.
>>1143412
I was meant to refute "self-preservation". They believe that Mazdeism must keep only in the Aryan race (iranian races), they don't search converts because it doesn't please their God. Parsees don't recognize converts from any part of world except iranian themselves.
Even some jews started to open conversions.
>>1143427
Exactly, you can't compromise "self-preservation" with in-group-only breeding and not have high birthrates to back it up.
>>1142926
>"All investigators, however, are agreed that his teachings were generally in force throughout Iran before the time of the Jewish Captivity."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism
It's less about one being the product of the other. They mutually influenced eachother.
Also Zoroastrians was not polytheistic before the Babylonian captivity. Duotheistic yes. If anything Judaism was monolatristic before. The relationship between the two may be something like how Christianity influenced Manichaeism and vise-versa except lest hostile to the other faith. Probably the best example possible considering Manichaeism it to Zoroastrianism as Christianity is to Judaism.
>>1143432
They never gave a f*ck about their numbers, their religion is based on the tolerance. However they have privileges at India and representation in Iran, I don't think that micro-minority could dissapear, at least not this century.
>>1143445
Dude, the original question in the chain is "How do we take this based religion and boost it's number?"
