Got done watching Empire of Dust and it got me thinking about the situation in post colonial states such as the state of Congo featured in the documentary.
According to the belgian who made it, peopld there would ask him when the belhians were coming back despite the history of atrocities that took place under belgian rule. Condescending Chinaman here often waxes about how the nation he's working in has done nothing but decline since their colonial overlords left.
Is there a solution to this, though? These places seem to have missed two hundred years of development and there doesn't seem to be any practical way to remedy that, it's not like they can just become colonies again, that wouldn't really help the formation of a stable, independent nation-state.
>>1140265
Condescending but right.
The Congo people are pityable but wrong in their beliefs.
To make things work, they have to move past the past and go for the future.
>>1140265
>the history of atrocities that took place under belgian rule.
That was mostly under King Leo. The official Belgian administration was pretty good.
The problem with Belgians is that when they left, they didn't leave any institutions behind. Most of leaders were Belgians, so you are left a country with no legistlative body, no legal institutions. Without those, infrastucture is useless when you have no one to take care of them.
So the big question is, how do you import those? The American way of bombing democracy isn't really bringing results we'd hope.
>>1140265
Didn't the Chinese also benefit from colonial rule? And then let shit slide?
>>1140334
Two points
1) China wasn't colonized. It was bullied into opening its borders. The only bits of China colonized were the concessions, which are cities but most of the time, bits of cities. Chinese modernization was done by the Late Qing/Republic & Warlords/and the victorious CCP, with help from western firms & governments
2) Hong Kong isn't a fucking wreck.
>>1140302
Eh, It works most of the time.
When you're dealing with places like Iraq or Afghanistan, there isn't a hell of a lot you can do. I'd count Japan, Germany, and South Korea as pretty good outcomes for a colonial power.
>>1140302
>no legistlative body, no legal institutions. Without those, infrastucture is useless when you have no one to take care of them.
If it was America it wouldn't matter at all. People would still go to work, private sectors would continue on and eventually pickup where the gov left off. People would just take care of it. Same for most of Europe, I would think.
I understand this is now and things change, but really what's the difference between their situation and the days of pioneering the wild west?
It's like Liberia. Enslaved by freedom.
>>1140359
>I'd count Japan, Germany, and South Korea as pretty good outcomes for a colonial power.
Worlds apart from actual colonised nations. None of those nations were ever colonised.
A symbiotic form of rule would actually work wonders for many of these countries I think.
I mean we already give them millions in aid and the money clearly isn't being used properly. So why not take some form of systematic control over them and get something in return while building them up?
>>1140265
Yes! There is a solution!
Tumultuous colonial revolts that totally displace the existing administrative class virtually never work, because no one has any idea how to run a society.
Currently, many post-colonial african countries got caught up in socialist economic policies. They aspired to socialist autarky, and this is unattainable. The solution to the economic dilemmas of these countries is free market economic policies and significant state investment in infrastructure and education.
One of the biggest issues is how "soft" these states are. To effectively transition from their current existence as backwaters into modern states, or at least middle-income states, western powers must allow dictators to take power.
Basically fuck their sovereignty, they're making all the wrong decisions.
>>1140265
A war of rent takes a long time to finish.
Isis is attempting to turn Syria into a war of rent right now.
Tutsis should conquer the Congo.
>>1140265
>Is there a solution to this, though?
Don't assassinate those trying to find a solution.
>>1141090
you dumb fucker, these idiots had no idea of how to run the place. Of course americans who know how to run things or had experience would just continue. jesus christ
>>1141112
Korea was colonized by Japan
>>1141090
America would be in chaos too if government suddenly would disappear. I mean your budget ceilings have shown what kind chaos that alone has caused.
>>1140265
They don't understand history. The Congo suffered due to a lack of security brought about by the cold war, arms proliferation and proxy wars.
>>1140265
The way things are going, the only way I can see some semblance of civilization returning to African is when China finally just takes over the continent wholesale. The Africans simply weren't culturally ready to assume the mantle of national leadership. It's not that they are stupid or genetically inferior, it's just that Western and Eastern civilizations have had more sustained practice with maintaining modern nations.
Things will probably degrade until either some bright figure from within Africa and whips things into shape in his corner of the continent, or an outside power steps in and takes up a leadership role. Western societies are too crippled by their colonial pasts to even think about retaking control; the Arab nations could take over themselves but they're having their own internal issues; this leaves China, which is already moving forward with settlement plans, infrastructure takeover, and resource buildup within Africa. I bet you that maintenance clause in the railroad contract they talk about in Empire of Dust is really an excuse to get a foothold in the Congo by maintaining a constant Chinese presence. God help the Africans if the Chinese do manage to take over. They're not haunted by colonial guilt and they have that whole "Middle Kingdom" mentality going on.
>>1140302
do you really any reading to seriously support that position though?
As far as I know, there was plenty of africans that went to study in europe.
Thats why there was an organized and consistent independence movement in the first place.
The problem is that the existing colonial institutions were thrown out of the window
>>1141867
really have any reading*
>>1141830
god help the africans if china goes full colonial there.
Europeans will look like saints
>>1140287
>The official Belgian administration was pretty good.
Actually they were pretty dogshit. Check how awful their education was.
>>1141867
>The problem is that the existing colonial institutions were thrown out of the window
Actually the problem was retaining a colonial structure instead of moving past that. A lot of African states kept a colonial like model because that was the only one they knew since ruling a managing a colony is very different from ruling a nation.
>>1140265
>that wouldn't really help the formation of a stable, independent nation-state.
Maybe that isn't the point,
>>1141653
This.
>>1141830
There are plenty of stable African states. Stop bunching up all Africans states under one group.
>Things will probably degrade until either some bright figure from within Africa and whips things into shape in his corner of the continent,
Those guys get killed quite often. See the activists trying to bring accountability to multinationals getting assassinated.
China has no care about maintaining a pressure they just want trucking money and that's it.
>>1140265
Obligatory post
>>1140334
No. No.
>>1141216
All utterly pointless we find a cheap cure / vaccine for AIDS.
>spend x training up generation
>1/3 then catch HIV & die
>>1140359
There's a lot you could do, it's just that the Americans and Russians only knew how to do one thing and one thing only.
>>1141216
>One of the biggest issues is how "soft" these states are. To effectively transition from their current existence as backwaters into modern states, or at least middle-income states, western powers must allow dictators to take power.
This only works for mostly monoethnic states. When you try it with a state teeming with unique tribes and language groups it spirals into disaster as only the dictator's tribe starts to develop along modern lines, but does so to the detriment of everyone else in the country. Eventually it comes to bite them in the ass.
>>1141377
Barely. 1905
>>1141830
The difference is China pays. It doesn't take.
>>1141936
Actually if you had an idea a proper health care system and fucking education (see what I did there) curbs HIV you dolt. On top of that we already have medication that lets an HIV positive mother not give the virus to the child.
>>1141991
Have you seen the fucked up shit multinationals and corporations do in developing countries? Hell in Canada one guy wrote a book and a company successfully sue for slander. He couldn't sell it anymore but he or some other close associates posted the book for free online since at least the news it out.
>>1142000
That doesn't change the fact China and Africa AGREED.
Can't say the same for European colonies.
>>1142000
On topic of Canad we have a lot of nasty shit that isn't really out in the open in regards to mining and developing countries.
>>1142026
I'm not disagreeing with you. Actually I didn't mean to respond to you and it was a mistake on my part.
>>1142038
Thought so
Only /pol/ and anti-China shills are like that.
>>1141237
>In scores of incidents, whites were humiliated, beaten and raped; priests and nuns were singled out for special insults. Seized by panic, the white population fled in thousands. The Belgian government at first tried to persuade Lumumba to permit Belgian troops stationed in the Congo to restore order, but when Lumumba refused, it unilaterally ordered Belgian forces into action and arranged to fly in reinforcements. As Belgian troops took control of key points like Léopoldville airport, Lumumba became convinced that Belgium was trying to reimpose its rule. He broke off diplomatic relations and declared that, as far as he was concerned, the Congo was now at war with Belgium.
>In an increasingly volatile mood, he [Lumumba] demanded that the UN force be used to expel Belgian troops. After meeting him in Léopoldville on 16 July, the head of the UN operation in the Congo, Ralph Bunche, an African-American awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his United Nations work, reported that ‘Lumumba was crazy and that he reacted like a child’. The following day, Lumumba issued an ultimatum threatening that if the UN did not remove all Belgian troops from the Congo by midnight on 19 July, then he would invite the Soviet Union to intervene. At a time when Cold War rivalry was at one of its peaks, Lumumba’s threats infuriated the United States and pitched the Congo into the middle of a Cold War confrontation.
>>1142078
He had a point
Belgium invaded the DRC
Downhill? The Congo was never good. Don't try to paint colonialism as the good ol' days.
>>1142026
>Corrupt governments looking to make a cheap buck of China's quest to strip mine it
>China doesn't even employ locals, ships it's own workers in, builds massive buildings to house them which fall into disrepair after they leave
>don't set up any permanent infrastructure for the Africans, strip mine any long term resource potential of the Africans
>African governments use the money to pay themselves and then pay the army to keep them in power
>Just because it's not the West doing it, it's ok
O, glorious, benevolent China!
>>1142090
>mutineers and rioters are sweeping through your country committing atrocities against foreign nationals
>your government is clearly in no position to protect said foreign nationals
>that foreign nation offers its forces to restore order and preserve their foreign nationals
>tell them to get fucked
>express shock when they send their forces in regardless
>>1142090
Are you referring to that specific incident? If your government is physically incapable of stopping mass rape and ethnic violence there is absolutely nothing wrong with another state stepping in and stopping said mass rape and ethnic violence.
If you're referring to the colonization, then no, Belgium did not, as there was no DRC before Belgium arrived.
>>1142111
>>China doesn't even employ locals, ships it's own workers in, builds massive buildings to house them which fall into disrepair after they leave
Actually a lot of workers are Africans. They only bring Chinese in if there aren't enough Africans to fill a certain role. In places where they used to have industry a few years back they use local labour and in many places they set up training programs for African labour because importing Chinese to work temp is more expensive then training a bunch of Africans to do the work.
>>1142181
Also Belgium interest supported the split of Katanga off from Congo and Moise Tshome.
>>1141830
For sure.
However there are African countries which are still stable and have good institutions.
In order for some of these African countries to improve, they must turn away from socialism and employ state capitalism.
>>1140265
Education and capital. If the IMF, WTO and co. weren't fucking around with peoples lives this wouldn't be the situation.
>>1141216
>The solution to the economic dilemmas of these countries is free market economic policies and significant state investment in infrastructure and education.
Halfway there, first all foreign organisation should let them alone. Second the state should protect industries, develop human capital and personally run all the enterprises that are optimal under natural monopoly. The free market is NOT the solution for developing nations.
And seriously? A dictator would just go straight into corruption, that's just stupid. Of course again political stability is needed but not the kind that is likely to just exploit the nation, most important for stability is just that world powers keep a hands off approach and don't put up trade barriers against their cheap exports.
>>1141237
Stuff like this makes me want to cry.
>>1140346
Northern China was civilized by the Japs, and the Chinese don't seem all that grateful for it.
>>1141830
Botswana rejected the IMF and had the greatest sustained growth of all time.
They're currently propped up by exports but hopefully they will use their accumulating wealth to deal with their health problems and diversify their industry.
>>1142221
The funny thing about capitalism vs socialism debates is it's all retarded. The only way growth has ever happened, regardless of where you are, is through nationalistic industrial policy. State capitalism is the only way.
>>1144247
>Northern China.
>Under Jap rule
What are you smoking?
>>1144253
what is machuko
>>1144254
Northern China means all of China above the fucking Huai River you doofus.
As for Manchukuo, why should Chinks be grateful for nips wanting to split their country apart? Manchurians are a culturally dead people to begin with.
>>1142181
>since the whole point of the UN is to help stop shit like this.
I don't think the point of the UN is to fight against "foreign occupiers" trying to prevent atrocities against their foreign nationals
>>1144262
>As for Manchukuo, why should Chinks be grateful for nips wanting to split their country apart?
Built infrastructure, brought medicine, tried to teach the Chinese civilization. Unfortunately, the Chinese chimped out and fucked themselves over.
>>1142181
UN is just the colonial grand exchange.
China is a big of a made up concept as the DRC. It be like if rome formed in europe and included a series of lands that were never actually in rome or were a vassal for 5 years, thousands of years after rome proper
>>1144306
>He believes the Greater-East Asia Co Prosperity Meme.
"Guys, guys, Asia for Asians! But we're attacking China first and disrupting the Republic's Anti-Commie War for reasons!"
>>1144306
Same applies to shitskins islanders as well. I remember living in Guam and being surprised at how many of the people from various surrounding islands used the Japanese terms for electricity, lights, and toilets.
>>1144315
>MUH ARTIFICIAL CONSTRUCT
Hello R3ddit!
>>1144323
>Japan leaves
>Chinese literally destroy what little culture their had
>Now cook their food in sewage, have fallen behind sub-saharan africa economically.
>>1140265
>it's not like they can just become colonies again
>Implying the Chinese aren't colonising them and other parts of Africa for their mineral rights.
>>1144252
In aiding third world countries, for sure.
South Korea was such a country that benefitted from such, then when it was ready, expanded and changed its economy to help move it forward even more.
>>1140265
>>1144337
>Disrupts Nationalist war efforts versus Commies.
>ITS UR FAULT :DD
>>1144323
kek chinks just can't stand being on the other side of the leash
>>1144315
"Everything is constructs! The Congo? Post-Colonial Construct.China? Uh, um, Construct that took a millenia or so to build. See! Nothing is real! Sheeple."
>>1144364
People in china don't have the same race or culture or religion
>>1144348
>tfw the stains in your history prohibit you from engaging in colonial adventurism
>ywn compete with industrious hanbros in a race to bring civilization to the dark continent
>>1144372
"Duuuude, countries could not have a universalist state identity that unites people. This could only be constructed!"
>>1144380
You could join a corporation and do the same thing.
>>1144372
Well, good thing it's called "Middle State" then, and not "Hanland" or something.
>>1140302
>we want freedom!
>okay here it is
>wait, but we're not ready!
abloobloobloo
Fun fact; Congolese immigrants are pro-Flemish seperation because they know it was the Walloons that fucked them over.
>>1144238
You have to pimp your country out to get the help form those organizations and often the help comes with a caveat or shit that no sane country would want to do.
>>1144245
Most of Africa was under dictators so supporting shitty ones won't do much.
Protecting industries is harder then it seems because stronger nations can bitch to the WTO or trade deals are heavily against the developing nation. Even then there's a lot of factors into making trade hard like like of infrastructure, weak tax revenue, massive subsidies and tariffs.
Certain foreign organizations should be left alone but only the good ones ie the ones that setup stable institutes or citizenry empowerment or improvement and permanent solutions.
>>1144340
You don't have the same climate now as you did back then where you had other countries willing to babysit you to get you on your feet.
Copying the competition's tech is not a possibility because while china is untouchable little Rwanda or Indonesia is though.
>>1144391
Thing is DRC as a colony was VERY VERY far behind other African colonies. and stat wise it showed badly.
>>1144383
Why are constructions invalid anyway? All knowledge, concepts, etc, and many things in the real world are constructed. That doesn't mean they're invalid.
>>1144397
>Thing is DRC as a colony was VERY VERY far behind other African colonies. and stat wise it showed badly.
Well, if you're not ready for freedom, but you're asking for it, and you're granted it, don't come back years on bitching about how it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be.
>>1144398
Dont talk to me, talk to anon few posts up
>>1144380
>tfw the stains in your history prohibit you from engaging in colonial adventurism
People who say that think they'd be the ones in charge but 95% you'd be the grunts or the guys they'd send to die due to some tropical disease to set up a place for the actual skilled people of worth to the colony.
>>1144398
Because there are actually valid people and cultures within the PRC, while the PRC itself is essentially a giant corporation that makes Austria-hungary and the soviet union look like valid states
>>1141867
>As far as I know, there was plenty of africans that went to study in europe.
For the Congo, you could count one two hands the number of university educated blacks at the moment of independence. All of those educated in the humanities. That was the problem: no educated upper class to rule.
>>1140265
w-what there's no doc named Empire of Dust
>>1144397
I think you took what I said the wrong way. I blame the IMF and the like with no implication that I expect them to change their behaviour and be the solution, contrary to what some people think I don't think IMF policy is a case of misguided theory - I'm 100% sure they're doing what they're doing on purpose.
>Most of Africa was under dictators so supporting shitty ones won't do much.
No one said that though, in fact the opposite was claimed. Do not support dictators under any circumstances.
You're right about the strategic acceptance of foreign enterprises and in general I'm aware of the problems you bring up but that doesn't mean those are the wrong solutions - since it's the only thing that ever worked. What do you think should be done?
>>1144693
You have to keep in mind the starting point : the congolese were still at the "naked jungle cannibal" stage when the Belgians arrived.
In 50 years they developped the Congo pretty damn well. They didn't create any rocket scientists but they stamped out cannibalism for instance.
>>1144707
Don't worry I see what you mean, since you can't control the trade rules at least take in the businesses that will benefit your nation in the long run.
>>1144727
to clarify this post was an addendum and not a reply
>inb4 autism
>>1142178
No they don't.
They bring in Chinese and only use Africans if 100% forced to.
You're retarded.
>>1142178
I visited Namibia, you cant fool me Xing Ping.
>>1140265
The Balkan states missed out on enlightenment, renaissance, industrialization, among other things. When the russian emperor was liberating Bulgaria he stayed in hovels and huts, upon liberation their capital had 12000 people, of which 3500 were jews and moved away.
They worked out okayish, and are surely better places to live, work and trade in than the African states. The capital has nearly 2 million population today.
>>1141922
>when your boss is talking shit but you can't respond cause he'll just fire you
We just need to install a brutal dictator who is actually a puppet for the UN into these countries. Teach them english and christianity and they'll improve within a few generations. Honestly africans don't really have any culture which is worth preserving so it's probably for their own good that it's wiped out as soon as possible.
Also drones to terrorize dissidents whenever they will inevitably appear. Do they actually have any natural resources worth exploiting though?
>>1144975
>>>/thewhitemansburden/
>>1144975
No the chinese are just there for shits and giggles
>>1144913
>You
>You
>You
>Motherfucker I wasn't colonized by anyone, nor did I run the government post colonialism, I'm 30.
If it wasn't for Deng Xiaoping and Nixon the Chinese guy would be in the same spot.
>>1144349
>Nignogs chimp out, having civil war round 1,856,900 killing 1,856,900,000 overpopulated nignog babies
>Civilized power intervenes after their chimp out kills some of their own citizens.
>Bring progress and education
>Nignogs complain that you interupted their pointless civil war.
We should just Quarantine China so they can kill each other as much as they like.
>>1144975
>We just need to install a brutal dictator who is actually a puppet for the UN into these countries.
Mobuto, in other words? Yeah, great plan.
>>1144372
>race
>religion
wew not all minorities are Uighurs
>culture
most minorities are more or less Sinicized.
>>1145005
>fuck you white people
>white people pls help
I think that events outside the scope of this board might have something to do with the Congo's current situation.
>>1145681
But the Japanese literally didn't improve shit in China. They did in Taiwan and Korea, but they were actual colonies being administered in peace time.
Japanese "colonization" in occupied parts of China was basically the same as German authorities operating in occupied parts of the USSR, i.e. no actual control and a huge part of the populace is actively fighting you.
>>1144711
Lol other powers got much more educated folk with people just as uneducated.
The education system the absolute worst because it was all dumped on missionaries to do the work much moreso then other African colonies.
>>1141922
It's an obligatory retard post
Just saying "dude europe governed you so you should know XD" means fuck all
The African colonials were not taught anything about running the institutions left by Europeans
It was a group of iron age cultures kept in an iron age culture to exploit the continent for resources to fund industry in the mother countries.
No shit just up and leaving and handing it off on them would result in it all falling apart. Colonialism was handled poorly, but the way decolonization was done (mostly because of the US demanding fast decolonization), and the cold age climate it happened in fucked Africa up even more than colonialism did
>>1146830
Slow decolinisation would be the powers taking everything not bolted to the ground, securing resources to be theirs and leaving.
>>1144323
It was either the Japs take Manchu or the Russia/other european country would takeover all of China. Japanese created a buffer between the european plans and China.
>>1144372
so now race exists eh?
>>1144391
>Fun fact; Congolese immigrants are pro-Flemish seperation because they know it was the Walloons that fucked them over.
highly doubt it but still kekked
>>1144711
>they stamped out cannibalism for instance.
no they didn't. also, i wouldn't call cutting people's arms off for failing to meet rubber quotas "civilization"
>>1142078
>‘Lumumba was crazy and that he reacted like a child’
well shit...
>>1145681
China's biggest mistake was killing themselves rather than killing others. Had the Ming Dynasty not been convulsed in civil war at the time of the Manchu invasion, the Ming armies could have mounted a successful united front to defeat the Manchu invaders. Chinese culture would have been preserved and the Ming probably wouldn't have been so fucktarded managing contact with an industrialized Europe, since the Ming court was very favorable to Jesuit scholars, and the Jesuits and Portuguese both compared the Ming favorably to existing European states at the time, suggesting that China could have caught up easily with Europe had the Manchus not gained control.
>>1144450
>People's
>Republic
>of China
>>1148073
Take your christian memes back to your containment thread
>>1141237
Lumumba was a socialist. All African socialist regimes turned their countries into shitholes. Julius Nyerere, Ahmed Sékou Touré, Mengistu Haile Mariam, Idi Amin etc... there is no reason to believe Lumumba would be different and the only reason why people remember him fondly is because he died before he could fuck up (Thomas Sankara of Burkuna Faso benefits from the same thing).
The one who actually had a solution for the Congo was Moise Tshombe. Like Seretse Khama in Botswana, he wanted a pro-western, pro-free market liberal democracy which concentrate in doing what Congolese was good act, extracting mineral resources and exporting them to the First World, instead of deluding about creating an industrialized country in the middle of the jungle.
>>1148170
NIGGA Moise Tshombe was a COMPLETE retard lol.
You have no idea how much of a corrupt idiot, pawn and cuck he was to foreign mining interests.
>extracting mineral resources and exporting them to the First World, instead of deluding about creating an industrialized country in the middle of the jungle.
Relying on mineral resources solely for development and ignoring development of local industry and diversification of your economy is a sure fire road to getting yourself FUBAR'd
Seretse Khama is NOTHING like Moise and it's an insult to his legacy.
>>1148170
Idiot.
>>1148716
worked for Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and the UAE.
>>1148955
And the situation Congo was fucking in is completely different then the one those gulf states were.
>>1140302
I'm sure if these values can simply be "imported". Colonialism can work. Japanese occupation of Taiwan is a great example.
>>1140359
I think even Iraq and even Afghanistan can work but it would require a foreign power remain occupied for maybe 50 years. Tribalism, which is common in Afghanistan, can be broken down. Iraq can be hard as Sunni-Shite animosity appears to run deep. Wasn't it T.E Lawrence who said that Iraq should've been 3 countries?
>>1141216
Chink have no remorse for what they've done, which makes them far more supperior compare to stupid whitey, they could eat cha siu pork rice next to a mount of black corpses and they dont give a fuck.
>>1144913
>he'll just fire you
Good luck finding another dude who fluently speaks French, Chinese, Swahili, English and whatever other languages
If anything Eddy is the most valuable employee in there
>>1146444
Manchuria saw better economic growth then the rest of China, and the PRC is still dependent on Infrastructural developments there to this day.
>>1142111
Nice memepost
>>1144306
Jesus christ the /pol/ posting is reaching critical levels
>>1149037
Did Japan want to colonise Taiwan for resources?
>>1144337
>ally with the literal commies
>attack only the nationalist government for 8 years straight
>kill 40 million Chinese and destroy the KMT's reputation
>lose all of fucking North China to the Soviets in 4 days
>"hurdur your fault commies took over"
>>1144339
Colonies = free exchange between local government and Chinese companies?
Nice bait
>>1144340
Jesus christ this bait
>>1144350
(You)
>>1144372
(You)
>>1144450
>literally in control of all of Mainland China
>1.4 billion people under its control
>$12 trillion economy
>92% Han
>nuclear power
>recognized as The China by 184/193 nations
Oh yes it is definitely not legitimate
>>1144771
>moving goalposts
(You)
>>1144833
(You)
>>1144859
(You)
>>1145046
No.
China 1970 was somehow less of a shithole than the DRC.
>>1145681
>>Civilized power intervenes after their chimp out kills some of their own citizens.
>>Bring progress and education
Wew this is some interestig revisionist history.
>>1147524
Except even after the Soviets conquered all of North China in 1945 after a 4 day BTFO of the Nips, they didn't continue onwards to defeat the Nationalists, and instead withdrew.
Nice bait.
>>1149481
There's other Congolese that can do the same.
Guangdong for example
>>1149734
Nah If another Mao copy cat came in China would be wrecked.
>>1149513
So if America conquers Britain to colonize it with pure-blooded Americans, but improves it a little while killing 4 million British, that's okay?
>>1149757
A wrecked China would still be better than a decent DRC.
>>1149513
That's because Manchuria contained the first heavy industries of China.
The first Manchurian heavy industries was built by Zhang Zuolin of the Fengtian Clique. After Japan controlled Manchuria, it was in upheaval and war and didn't do much if any development in Manchuria. After the war, Manchurian heavy industries was taken by the Soviets and later rebuilt by the Soviets.
Japan had fuckall to do with Manchurian economy.
>>1149786
This
The Japanese extracted raw resources from Manchuria and used it like a colony, ethnically cleansing Chinese, and moving in Japanese settlers.
Meanwhile they tested new chemical weapons everyday on unsuspecting villagers.
Soldiers would hand out newly poisoned candy to the starving Chinese children. There's videos of them convulsing in pain and puking blood.
Thanks Unit 731!
>>1141958
>it's just that the Americans and Russians only knew how to do one thing and one thing only.
Be super powers?
>>1149059
Of course Iraq and Afghanistan can be made to work. We managed to do it with the Philippines after all. The problem is that all the methods we used to civilize them are all outlawed now.
>>1141987
So Italy's colonization of Ethopia doesn't count, America's colonization of the Guam/Philippines/etc doesn't count? Why is 1905 the cut off for colonization considering most colonization didn't begin until late in the 19th century?
>>1149729
Holy shit
>>1144364
who the fuck is that guy
>>1149729
Someone get this hothead out of here!
>>1140265
>doesn't seem to be any practical way to remedy that
Sure there is: Education.
What do you think, if Africa had the same level of education as Europe, that it would be any different economically?
It was on the cards all the time, but Europe never cared, never even cared about democracy and rule of law in Africa. The French and English supported one terrible dictator after another. Africa needed to be poor for Europe to be rich, that's the sad truth. Ruthless practicality was always the spirit of "oh so noble" Europa.
Makes me ashamed to be European.
>>1149947
>What do you think, if Africa had the same level of education as Europe, that it would be any different economically?
Yes. Education is a piece of the puzzle, but Africa still suffers from lack of economic diversification, problems of capital accumulation, and lack of infrastructure.
If Education alone was the answer, the Republic of Congo would be a shining success, not a war torn shithole.
>>1145046
>If it wasn't for Deng Xiaoping and Nixon the Chinese guy would be in the same spot.
>man if china were still undeveloped than it would be undeveloped
>>1149961
14k-17k died build a railroad in republic of Congo after ww1 and only through their protests and causing France a state of emergency in the Colo.you was France forced to sign the anti forced labour deal.
>>1150272
Just an interesting fact.
>>1149947
>>1150272
You just seem to be affected by a pretty serious case of white guilt. Are you still in university? If so, let me remind you that:
>you are not responsible for things that you did not do
and that
>western ethics and governance ideals are still the yardstick by which the world judges fairness and transparency
to balance out the negativity.
Recolonize it. It's what they want.
>>1140265
Niggers are a few hundred thousand years behind in evolution.
Just give it time.
>>1150293
I was just stating an interesting fact faggot no need to pull that white guilt shit on me you shit kid.
>>1150326
Uh oh, seem to have touched a nerve :)
>>1149961
>lack of economic diversification, problems of capital accumulation, and lack of infrastructure.
And sufficiently educated people cannot build that?
>>1150324
>mfw the iron age was hundreds of thousands of years ago
>>1150338
RACIST.
>>1150337
>lack of economic diversification,
Lack of skilled labour and limited industry asides from resources.
problems of capital accumulation
You need taxes and poor people aren't qa good tax base along with needing to incorporate a system to make sure people pay up if they can. You can get loans but since you are a new nation that cones with risks and people not feeling confident in your ability to pay it off.
>lack of infrastructure.
You need taxes for that and good revenue sources but that's kinda spotty because resource prices fluctuate, loans are risky and can you maintain it after its completion? Better yet who will do the building?
>>1140265
Not exactly answering your question OP, but my favorite books on this matter are "Why Nations Fail" and "The White Man's Burden", which explain the general failure of poor nations like those in Africa.
While not exactly answering the question of how to build their nation states, these books do illustrate how the current situation came to be, and I think it'll be an enlightening read for you too on the subject.
>>1150379
>Why Nations Fail
Pretty sure bill gates preferred some GGS explanations over this book.
https://www.gatesnotes.com/Books/Why-Nations-Fail
>>1150383
Ah, true I found the book to be a bit underwhelming towards the end especially, and it almost felt like they were dragging out their pet theory of inclusive vs extractive needlessly. I think the value of the book is really in being a context-setter for talking about the development of nations in general.
>>1149822
>Philippines
Flip here, you didn't "civilize" us, you guys basically took over an already existing society and power-structure put in place by the Spanish and a country that by the time you took over already had some (brief) experiment in Western-style nationalism (an experiment America abruptly halted), not the same thing as Iraq and Afghanistan.
If anything, America damaged Filipino nationalism in that your suppression of our revolution, and the destruction of a great European-style city (which you guys helped build), gave us a national inferiority complex we're still trying to recover from.
It's funny though, you Americans are still the best white colonizers since you guys actually cared about turning us into "little brown Americans" and promptly gave us education, healthcare and infrastructure toward that goal and eventually helped set us up for independence (even if you didn't end up footing the bill for a lot of the infrastructure you guys destroyed in the war).
Shitholes like much of Africa shouldn't be intervened with, it's best to let them punch things out and let their institutions develop organically with the West intervening only to relieve some of the humanitarian pressure there.
>>1150592
>It's funny though, you Americans are still the best white colonizers since you guys actually cared about turning us into "little brown Americans" and promptly gave us education, healthcare and infrastructure toward that goal
Why are Flips so brainwashed to think we actually did that for them?
>>1140265
desu, my (admittedly ultra basic) theory is that rampant tribalism in areas like the Congo or in Afghanistan are inherently "new" in that, a tribe typically is named after a source, and that source usually is only a couple generations back who themselves was likely a part of a larger power before breaking away and having a bunch of children. We revert towards tribalism when all notions of a state break down because tribes are ultimately the last bastion of statehood/protection. Everyone has some sort of tribe, even if it isn't named or obvious. We all have cousins and aunts and uncles, and we all have family gatherings.
Being from Somaliland, and learning from first hand accounts how close the old dicator Siad Barre came to destroying tribalism in Somalia is what reinforces my position. It was only when he fell back on his own family that the state began to corrupt and fall apart much faster. This is also why dictators like Saddam appear to be much better alternatives, because they can essentially destroy these sorts of systems overnight and give the images of stability and unity, which is really just unity under fear. Democracies are also inherently very hard to establish straight away from tribalism because Democracy will always favor the majority, or risk overpowering the minority. It's a very difficult game to balance, and it's probably best that a tribalist country move towards an authoritarian rule before transitioning into a constitutional democracy. I dunno just my two cents.
>>1141090
You realize the only reason america was even able to """"""rebel""""""" in the first place was because English cucks were dumb enough to let the 13 colonies completely rule themselves since they established them and only started taking back power right after the Seven Years War
>>1154013
What's it like in Somaliland?
>>1154264
Wouldn't know, although I plan on moving back after I graduate from Ohio State. From what I understand it's extremely stable compared to Somalia proper because it's all ruled by one main tribe. Although I don't like the balkanization of Somalia, since everyone has their own slice of country after Djibouti's success, can't really deny that it's a perfect example of an African state implementing democracy without any foreign assistance or aid
>>1154501
>another fucking Somali living in Columbus
Kill me.
>>1154501
Neat. I've always wondered why the fuck the US never recognized it.
>>1151767
Because they're a bunch of self-hating cucks, it's colonial mentality at its worst.
>>1154013
>my (admittedly ultra basic) theory is that rampant tribalism in areas like the Congo or in Afghanistan are inherently "new" in that, a tribe typically is named after a source, and that source usually is only a couple generations back who themselves was likely a part of a larger power before breaking away and having a bunch of children
Can't say about Congo, but tribes in Asian and Caucasian countries have existed for longer than actual nations of these respective areas. Usually strong leader you're talking about just takes up a leader slot of an established tribe and they come and go while the name stays the same.
Increasing social and geographical mobility of individuals destroys tribalism more effectively than punitive measures from some strong central power.
When people have opportunity to move around freely, safely and at low cost vague borders of tribal groups become moot and people start to get assimilated into one bigger national identity, with tribe either becoming vestigial meme denomination (like blood type in east-asian countries) or just disappearing completely.
>>1150337
Are you sufficiently educated?
Have you built any of that shit?
>>1150351
>You need taxes and poor people aren't qa good tax base along with needing to incorporate a system to make sure people pay up if they can.
That, and you need the same thing going on in the private sector. You need banks that can offer loans, and in order to that, you need people who have enough spare cash to put in banks.
>>1140265
>According to the belgian who made it, peopld there would ask him when the belhians were coming back despite the history of atrocities that took place under belgian rule. Condescending Chinaman here often waxes about how the nation he's working in has done nothing but decline since their colonial overlords left.
muh the past is always golden
>>1149833
and ethiopa was only 'colonized' (lmao) for 5 years.
yet for some reason it's just as much of a shithole as all the countries around it.
>>1149729
T. Triggered stormfag
>>1154840
When did Chinks become white supremacists?
>>1154647
and you need to convince people to use the banks and they need to have an income high enough they have cash leftover to save and that requires jobs but that requires you to compete with China and Bangladesh which are rock bottom in cost. However you say "It's Africa labour is dirt cheap" but then you realize that transport is expensive because bad roads and SO MANY BOARDERS OMG with delays in between because customs and road quality highly varies within and between nations (imagine being landlocked and having to rely on your neighbors roads to ship goods to sea once they leave your borders), training and building a factory or rearing one. So thus it's a lot of catch-22's.
>>1154617
Just use Ethnic group.
>>1154915
clan would be closer term because familial relations in clan/tribe can transcend ethnic identity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khereid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dughlats
Identification by tribe carried a meaning to encourage genetical diversity (if couple has a common ancestor in 7 generations, the marriage was off -- too bad they only counted male ancestor so it was kinda sham) but by now tribal affiliation here is just a personal factoid.
>>1149947
Only the Europeans cared about education in Africa retard. It was not even a concept before they arrived
pic related taken in Algeria during the French colonization
>>1154843
pol and other variants is the racist/misogynist/ -ist of his, for when you got no argument
>>1149745
Except in WW2, the stakes were raised high with the whole world on their toes. A continuation of colonialistic policy would have driven the Americans/west to pursue the Soviets.
This isn't to mention the fact that China was leaning towards the Soviets side of the faction. Why would they invade their own allies?
>>1150101
>missing the point
What he's saying is that the Chinese guy in the image didn't do anything to make his country developed, yet he's accusing a Congolese man of being incompetent when he didn't do anything to make his country underdeveloped.
>>1155543
The French were also literally trying to make Algeria into a part of France, you retard. Of course that would involve education of the populace, among other things.
The situation in Algeria is not comparable to most of the rest of Africa.
>>1156193
>yet he's accusing a Congolese man of being incompetent when he didn't do anything to make his country underdeveloped.
Nope:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzyaa2tfwBk
He's talking about the Congolese, not Eddie.
>>1156190
>that picture
Whoever made this fucked up, the one labeled Russia is actually an Australian sailor.
>>1149801
The factories were Jap-designed and Jap-run. don't tell me the Chinese actually built it with their own know-how, because nearly all Chinese working in the factories were slaves and died within half a year, hence infinitely high turnover.
The Chinese captured these factories after the war.
>>1149786
Neveros, you used facts, my immediately previous post was rendered invalid before I even posted!
>>1144247
>>1144306
>>1144337
To be fair the Japanese ain't that better, they still haven't thanked the Americans for civilising them today. Pic Related
>>1140334
lol
>>1151767
What I meant was that it was part of the justification to colonize to "civilize" us, and at least, in terms of that succeeded in developing basic services and utilities, bringing literacy up and mortality down. That's a much better record compared to the European escapades in Africa, which is why in terms of track record, funnily enough, you Americans were the "best" white colonizers.
I still think you Americans fundamentally fucked us over in the long term, though, just not as badly as other countries.
>>1141377
I think you might want to learn the difference between imperialism and colonialism before you embarrass yourself further. Korea was not colonized.
>>1154823
Communism.
Colonialism came and built infrastructure. When the whites either up and left or were killed/forced off there wasn't enough expertise to keep the infrastructure everyone relied on
Then the Cold War kicks off and everyone starts arming everyone in Africa to fight/spread communism
The Soviet Union collapses, and now the nations relying on Soviet assistance find themselves with a lot of weapons and very little money. Que the spat of small wars and ethnic cleansings, because the populations just can't sustain themselves.
Now China moves in, building only enough infrastructure to extract resources faster, and further drain Africa's wealth under the flag of Neocolonialism. When the resources run dry? Chaos will reign in Africa like never before
>>1144306
What's with the hajj we're getting from /pol/ lmao
>>1161216
You should check what Italians did in Libya, Eritrea and Somalia: they literally built those countries from zero and they had imho one of the best colonisation model.
>>1161801
DO IT OUR WAY OR WE'LL KILL YOU.
simple.
Pasta is still popular in Somalia though.
>>1161801
Eritrea and Somalia were still heavily under developed and Libya experienced a ton of atrocities.
It was dysfunctional and the Italians were unsurprisingly incompetent and corrupt.
