The Bayonet is not an iconic weapon today, but at one point it held a central place in military culture. There were manuals and even bayonet fencing.
We've had enough sword threads for awhile so post stuff about bayonets.
Whats the best length?
>>1130346
>muh bayonet
>>1130366
The bigger, the better
Moisin Nagant is bestest
>>1130346
When going through basic training the need for a bayonet was described as....
''Wars have been fought by people with pointy sticks for centuries. The 21st is no different, and when it comes to close quarter fighting, a pointy stick is all you need''
Then we proceeded to get thrashed for 3 hours.
The bayonet is pretty iconic. It is an icon for a huge amount of history.
>>1130497
So what was training like?
drills? sparring?
>>1130497
and then the SMG came
>>1130520
Basically giving you a good run about til you're knackered. Then they get you worked up, shouting and screaming at you etc
then you go down the bayonet gallery attacking different sandbags full of fake blood etc
The actual use of it is a drill following an army publication for bayonet fighting. It's all done so that if you do come down to it, you're not flailing about like a spastic and it's quite methodical.
>>1130528
SMG's are useless when out of ammo, or the person holding them is so shit scared of getting bayonetted they run off.
Bayonet charges and the use of them have been effective in the falklands conflict, Iraq and afghanistan.
>>1130569
>SMG's are useless when out of ammo
my gods, a machinegun, without ammo... useles you say?
>>1130599
My point is you need to fight without them when needs be.
>>1130346
In the Philippines, under the American Legislature and Commonwealth, we had Bolo Bayonets consisting of native blades with bayonet mounts for attaching to the trusty Springfield.
I heard that bayonet combat didn't happen very often because often the side being charged at would flee, or the chargers would stop charging if the enemy didn't flee.
How accurate is this?
>>1130602
>My point is you need to fight without them when needs be.
That doesn't actually happen, though.
>>1130820
Well if you're close enough to be using them and they run away its job done. If your that close to be using them and they don't run, your that close anyway and you fight.
>>1130838
The running out of ammunition? Not sommuch these days.
The use of the bayonet is commonplace in every engagement if closing with the enemy.
Bayonets are pretty cool. Pointy stick is my favorite historical weapon.
>>1130855
>The use of the bayonet is commonplace in every engagement if closing with the enemy.
I don't think that's correct, anon.
>>1130875
Certainly is dude. If you're taking a position that's occupied, bayonets are fixed.
>>1130346
bayonet fencing championships in France 1916
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMglDHI_ORs
Bayonets are just the current form of the the first and final word on melee weaponry
>>1130892
"Units which served in Afghanistan have reported that in most cases only two out of every 10 soldiers would have been able to "fix bayonets", had the command been given.
Among the weapons used by British soldiers which were unsuitable for bayonets were the Belgian-made Minimi machine-gun and the M16 semi-automatic rifle.
It is not possible to fit any bayonet to the Minimi, while the MI6 can only take an American blade, which the British Army does not possess."
notice the "hade the command been given" thats because that command is never given
>The use of the bayonet is commonplace in every engagement if closing with the enemy.
stop talking out of your ass, this isent 1860
common practice when taking a position thats occupied is a full clip and another soldier rigth behind you
this is ofc if you disregard the use of fragmentation grenades, concussive grenades or flashbangs
ofc its still part of basic training in more or less every country in the world
I can confirm that 1914 French Army Doctrine had a very unhealthy relationship with the supposed "glory" and "decisive strike" of bayonet (called the Rosalie) charges.
Jesus fuck thousands of French men died in the Battle of the Frontier because of this stupid fascination with the "unrecoverable blow" administered to the enemy via bayonet charges.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkjEtFMmWdY
>>1131086
>clip
>>1131095
Often outmodded ideas about war continue to influmence even when they are outdated. People still though that melee combat was nessary to break enemy lines.
Heck even after WWI there were still officers insisting that Calvary armed with swords had their place because of the shock value of "cold steel"
It didnt help that there were some brutal trench fights during WWI that convinced some people that the era of close combat was not over
>>1131110
sorry i ment mag
Its always a good idea to argue semantics if you cant argue the actual substance of the comment
>>1131127
I'm not that guy you were arguing with, "clip" just triggers me too much.
>>1131095
>wherever i go i must also charge
>>1131086
Site that source before you start talking out your own arse mate.
Minimi doesnt have a bayonet, its a support weapon. We dont use M16's either.
When clearing positions, you fix bayonets. I dont know what the US do, assuming you're from there, but we do.
>>1131118
>>1131135
I just got out a French magazine I bought some years ago which is mainly a collection of primary sources. There's a whole section dedicated to bayonet charges and how the French High Command took several months to come to the painful realization that "le feu tue" - "bullets kill". Now the best part is an extract from "le petit journal illustré" of September 20th 1914. It was written by a certain Henri Houssaye, member of the Academie Française who probably never saw combat.
it's a 3 page long, disturbingly erotic depiction of what an infantry charge is supposed to look like. It's really fucking pathetic describing men "dazzled by the glory of the moment" "furiously charging" while singing the Marseillaise. The enemy is (for some reason) completely taken by surprise and simply forgot to fire his heavy machineguns. The gallant French infantry continues in charge in a "state of patriotic euphoria as the trumpet continues to sing its heavenly blood-stained tune".
Then the French reach the enemy lines massacre everyone and like some kind of human wave just drown the Germans out and single handedly win the battle.
I swear it's disgusting. Who knows how many young lads because they fell for this kind of memes perpetuated by stupid academics?
I feel stupid for asking this.
But why did infantry wait until the last second before fixing bayonets for hand to hand combat?
I've always assumed because all that added weight at the very end of the barrel made aiming the gun more difficult, but I've never actually confirmed that's the real reason.
To add to that naivete... if you're dealing with a ranked formation of smoothbore muskets firing a volley, just how important is that decline in accuracy?
There was a Scottish general in the British Army in mid-19th century, told by one of his ADCs that the men were running low on ammunition. He reportedly replied: "Thank God! Then I'll be at them with the bayonet!"
>>1131256
>I've always assumed because all that added weight at the very end of the barrel made aiming the gun more difficult, but I've never actually confirmed that's the real reason.
The bayonet blocks the barrel, you can't fire a gun with a bayonet on it.
>>1131263
>The bayonet blocks the barrel, you can't fire a gun with a bayonet on it.
what is this 1590?
DON'T LOOK DOWN YOU HORRIBLE LITTLE MAN!
IF IT HAD HAIR ROUND IT, YOU'D FIND IT SOON ENOUGH!
How 'tis done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE
>>1130393
enjoy being unable to hit anything further than 100m
>>1130554
this, if you were a absolute sissy
OR
follow the japanese official bayonet training that the allies maliciously rebranded as warcrimes once the war was over
>>1131159
Marines train with them quite often.
>>1130346
A central place? I'm fairly sure it was always seen as a undignified weapon used by the masses.
Officers carried side-swords for a reason you know.
>>1131159
>We dont use M16's either.
British special forces use the Diemaco/Colt Canada C8, which is an AR derivative.
>>1130569
Didn't the japs do banzai charges and were mowed down by Americans?
>>1131460
>>1131812
melee against machine guns may not be very effective, but as far as their melee training went the Japanese were pretty good. They would train bayonet vs bayonet, bayonet vs sword, unmounted bayonet, etc.
From what I read they beat European powers (England I think) in peace time fencing competitions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSRmQCqMNhM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJSrlwLOGuo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSRmQCqMNhM
>>1131921
That's cool to know, but man. How did the japs overlook something so obvious as the American 30. Cal?
>>1131921
>>1131812
>Grandfather was in Burma with the British forces
>Had one of those Gurka knives, Kukri I think they're called.
>Asked him how he got it,
>Told me this story, not entirely sure if it's true
>About how when the Japanese were frustrated at the shooting and not getting very far in the jungle (since you couldn't fucking see anything) they would draw sword and bayonet and charge to fight hand to hand
>You could always tell, because they would do this shouting at each other thing, probably to work each other up into enough of a frenzy that they were willing to make the dash.
>Usually, what would happen is they'd come bursting out, they would shoot a bunch, 3/4 of the Nips would go down before they hit their position, but the remaining guys would do quite a bit of damage before they could be brought down, or were shot at the risk of friendly fire incidents.
>Anyway, one day, after a lot of maneuvering and shooting and running in terror, his unit found themselves out of position, but linked up with a unit of Gurkas
>Under fire, trading shots with the Japanese.
>And suddenly, the shouting to each other.
>Herecomesanothercharge.
>Gurkas calmly put down their rifles
>Pick up their knives.
>Just wait.
>Japs come charging in.
>Gurkas just wait for them to hit, and start carving them up.
>Got one of the knives off of a fallen dude, was amazed that anyone would actually play the Japanese hand to hand game back at them, and what's more, win.
>>1131956
Gotta love those crazy bastards.
>>1131956
I would not be surprised at aboriginal troops beating the Japanese at their own game, some of those guys had handled blades all their lives. compared to the average Japanese solider they might have a lot more time in with live blades.
The Japanese army had a much stronger connection to martial arts than most since kendo was used as a recruiting tool, but kendo is somewhat removed from battlefield sword work
The Japanese would often go to martial arts experts outside the military to work out their training regime.
>>1131956
Damn this is a crazy war story of I every heard of one.
>>1130497
lol ok gramps
>>1130346
My wifes step father was kinda drunk one christmas and he started telling me about the Korean War and how the US Army had 6 inch bayonets and that the North Koreans had 17 in bayonets so they had a helluva easier time getting within the North Korean turn/stab radius and taking them out.
>tfw step father in law taught me how to kill gooks with a bayonet
>>1131256
Have you ever carried a Gun around? The longer it is the more of a hassle it is. Especially in forests, bushes or jungle etc. Let alone how it will effect your aim and arms after a firefight.
Some guns had a folding bayonet which never really caught on but by and large a compact gun is a better gun as long as it does not interfere with the guns intended use.
Fuck yes! I love bayonet fencing and Jukendo!
>>1130520
Modernly, its aggression drills, sandbag charges, etc.
Some camps of the USMC do a little more with oak rifle blanks capped with a rubber tip, hockey gloves, and boxing masks.
Point is (rimshot), its not as it was when it was when bayonets were an active part of combat.
Practical swordsmanship and bayonet sparing both died in the Second World War. Before that, padded jackets, specialized fencing guns and fencing masks were used in practical lessons.
(con't)
>>1132275
>>1132277
>>1131263
butt plug bayonets haven't been used for a long time anon.
>>1132278
Here is a great pic... Back from WWI and earlier, there was an obvious class disparity between nobles (commissioned officers) and enlisted men, yet the act of fencing was a common need to interact. These were commonly part of promotional evaluations, to advance in rank.
>>1132278
Those do look very similar to the jukendo ones. Ive read that jukendo as it exists today was purposely bloodied after the war, things like use of the butt and sideways thrusts were removed, but it does look very similar in its current form to prewar videos Ive seen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2eRNk6GoS0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDNADgnf_4I
>>1132297
Finally, lets talk about one of the last living bastions of the art, outside of HEMA practioners: Jukendo.
Much like Kendo, Naginatado, Yarido etc, it can interact and be used against the various other weapons.
>>1132304
Thats because the pic is of a Purpleheart armoury piece. The USMC onces tend to be heavier and shorter than a Juken though.
Pic is a Juken vs Naginata
>>1132304
Purposely de-bloodied I should've said
>>1132307
The main difference I see between them and their military predecessors is the military stuff looks a lot more aggressive. The older videos occasionally show them using the butt or the shaft was well.
Its a pity it has not spread along with kendo, I imagine it would raise images of Japanese war crimes in certain parts of the world.
>>1132297
French uniforms during WWI have to be the most beautiful in history. Cool posts bro.
>>1131474
>Officers carried side-swords for a reason you know.
You mean, because they carried pistols as their primary ranged weapon rather than rifles, and didn't necessarily fight in line formation with the rest of the men?
Because it had nothing to do with the dignity of the bayonet. It was basically a modernization of the pike, and was necessary in the age before semi-automatic weapons, when you could not reload and fire again in close quarters combat.
>>1132329
>military stuff looks a lot more aggressive
Just like modern fencing, its a sport extrapolation. Kendo is the sport to Kenjutsu, as modern line fencing is to actual saber or rapier fencing.
>Its a pity it has not spread along with kendo
Oh, we exist, but Kendo as a whole is not popular in the west. I do Kumdo (korean kendo), Kendo, and got a jukendo set up. Played with naginata a bit
>>1132343
I was gong to make that point, in the swordsman thread there were some epee duels posted, and it was very similar to modern epee but somewhat more aggressive.
>>1131299
>How 'tis done:
Their stupid bullpup rifle doesn't even allow them to use a bayonet properly, they have to remove their right hand off the grip and cup the butt of the rifle.
Also; why do the British use such a gay helmet?
>>1132372
Epee is for faggots. Rapier is best.
>>1132380
Both are for effeminate faggots and circusmen. Real men fight with sabers.
>>1132384
I am a circusman.
My rapier does me just fine.
>>1131159
>US do
The United States is singular, britbong faggot.
![a2e13e6832e9f98f827d8bd31755940b[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/w2Pfgg5.jpg "a2e13e6832e9f98f827d8bd31755940b[1].jpg")
>>1131921
>melee against machine guns may not be very effective
of course not, bayonet have been made obsolete 50 years after the napoleonic wars
i was just joking about the japs who happened to use real people to train their recruits in close quarter combat... so if you were a prisioner chances are you could be used as a training dummy or a live target in a shooting range
but this is a pratice they have been doing pretty much since ever, chopping people in half with a 1000 folded steel katana was part of the wapanize kurture
>>1131256
Maybe it's faster to reload without the bayonet in the way.
>>1131256
bayonets add extra weight to the tip, unbalacing the weapon and making it harder to aim properly.
this is why riflemen/jaegers were completely defenseless against any kind of cavalry attack (they had sabre briquets but those are good to spread butter on your bread only) and the same reason why napoleon never wanted to have a rifle regiment in his army (along with "it takes too long to reload") - he opted instead to arm his lightest regiment (voltigeurs/tirailleurs) with muskets like the rest of the troops
>tl;dr: if you want to hit something at long range, having a weight on the tip of your firearm won't help
>>1131086
Clip?
>>1130820
Pretty accurate. People don't want to get stabbed. Life is not like a Total War game where units will fight until the other side runs out of men. There are accounts from the Napoleonic wars of people shooting at each other from just a few meters away and reloading rather than engaging in melee and risk getting bayonetted.
>>1133879
Sometimes as soon as the enemy charged into me in Napoleon,my men would rout immediately.
>>1133879
Units in total war games do not fight until most of them are dead unless you're talking about either elite units or city/fort defense battles.
Alright /his/
Spike or Blade?
When was the last war that bayonets played a significant role? We're talking 19th century, right?
>>1132550
>of course not, bayonet have been made obsolete 50 years after the napoleonic wars
¨
ok.jpg
>>1133951
blade for skirmishers, spike for line infantry
>>1131159
all i know is that in the whole, entire 1990-1996 series of conflicts in ex-yu, there wasnt one known instance of ''fixing bayonets'', not even once
even with actual trench warfare complete with everithing from creeping barrages to tank supported charges there was a far bigger chance someone would fix a tromblon when 'clearing' than a bayonet
not that bayonets werent used, there were fucktons of them and they were used a lot, in combat and out of it, just that no one would be so retarded as to waste time on actualy fixing them on the firing end of a small calibre automatic weapon
actualy i cant think of one recent conflict from 1950 onwards that iv heard, read, or seen footage of people ''fixing bayonets'' unless its a drill
that said id venture to claim, completely without sourcing it, that no one uses bayonets any more
no one
it would be the most retarded thing you could do and people would laugh at you
>>1134025
>The Scots Guards attacked Argentinian positions with bayonets fixed at Mount Tumbledown in 1982.
> In May 2004 the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders attacked with bayonets after running out of ammunition.
>In October 2011 men from the 1st Battalion, Princess of Wales' Regiment charged with bayonets fixed after their convoy was ambushed
>>1134468
Not to mention all the instances of urban combat, such as the battles for Fallujah, where house to house clearances were conducted with bayonets fixed
>>1131432
Bruh.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
It's one of the most accurate rifles ever made.
Ever.
>>1132343
Is there any way you could practice in HEMA OR even SCA? I was in the kingdom of the West for a long time and things were pretty stagnant as far exotic things go, personally I was very skilled with glaives, short spears, and war maces. I would imagine jukendo or bayonet battling would go over very well with them, as long as you explained the purpose of your match, and how the two combatants would be dressed, the lethality of the weapon, and agree upon a list of kill moves, it shouldn't be a problem.
Purpose shows the fighters why you want to, they will want to aswell.
Lethality of the weapon demonstrates where the point end is, black tape is a blade, red is a point, they have rules for weapons, check your local kingdom.
The kill moves are important. A jab to the hip isn't a kill. To the gut is. A cleave to the hipeople IS a kill, to the gut isnt.
Man I miss my house.
>>1132493
They don't understand unity, since their supposedly United Kingdom is held together by an iron fist in North ireland.
>>1130509
This. It's just not comparable with the sword because, for a long time, the bayonet coexisted with the sabre and it's the sabre, not the bayonet, who took the place of the sword. The rifle with bayonet was more comparable to the spear and other polearms.
>>1134772
SCA, no. Its post period. There is no documentation for bayonets existing pre-1600ad.
That said, find a WMA/HEMA group whos interested, and make or buy some wooden musket/rifle blanks as desired (I live near the colonial part of Williamsburg, so its easy for me). Get some fencing dagger blades, and some hose clamps (I like alchem flex daggers and amazonia daggers for the more realistic width.) Toss on a three weapons mask and a fencing jacket or gambeson, and go nuts.
http://www.alcheminc.com/daggerblades.html
http://www.jamesthejust.com/Blades.htm
>>1133959
>played a significant role? We're talking 19th century, right?
Eastern Front, WW2. The fact that few people were outfitted with SMGs and the house to house nature of urban fighting meant CQC was a real possibility. Bayonets exacerbated that fact. They also saw extensive use in the Pacific, but generally speaking only amongst the Japanese. The US Marines rarely fixed bayonets unless it was absolutely necessary due to the fact that the M1 Carbine was the weapon of choice in the Pacific. The Army fixed them rather often though.
>>1134722
i was talking about using an excessively huge bayonet would fuck up your shots on target
>>1132493
>The United States is singular
>States is singular
. In May, 2004, a detachment from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders surprised a force of 100 insurgents near Al Amara, Iraq with a bayonet charge. British casualties were light, but nearly 28 guerrillas were killed. And as recently as October of 2011, a British Army lance corporal named Sean Jones led a squad of soldiers from the Prince of Wales Royal Regiment in a bayonet charge against Taliban fighters in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. After being ambushed and pinned down by militants, the 25-year-old ordered his squad to advance into a hail of machine gun fire. “We had to react quickly,” Jones remarked. “I shouted ‘follow me’ and we went for it.” He was awarded the Military Cross for his actions. Even in an age of GPS-guided bombs, unmanned drone and network-centric warfare, 300-year-old technology — like the simple bayonet — can still carry the day.
>>1138950
States is plural. The United States refers to a singular entity and is thus singular. You don't refer to the Netherlands as a plural despite having a fucking s at the end of it.
the ukraine
>>1132106
every soldier should want to be trained to kill with knives n' such just in case it comes down to that, shouldn't they? it would be something I hope I would ask about if they didn't go over it.
>>1131118
Fighting in trenches was different than fighting in the open.
And despite how the war was going, there were situations where cavalry charges changed the tides of battle, especially on the eastern front, but yeah, most of the time cavalry was just mobile mounted infantry.
>>1131956
>linked with gurkas
So gramps had nothing to worry about, then?
>>1139266
Somewhere I saw a video of the last US Calvary exercises, either shortly before or after WWII. trotting was no longer fast enough because of machine guns, even then that clearly is not fast enough in most situations.
We talk alot here about trench fighting, but I wonder what the actual statistics on it were
>>1132013
>gurkhas in burma
>aboriginal
>>1133944
>random peasant inside the town plaza
>kills your general.
REEEEE
>>1140709
Bad choice of words, but would I be wrong in my suggestion that they probably handled blades all there lives?
>>1140724
Sending your general into the town plaza meat grinder
You kinda deserved that anon.
>>1132373
they don't HAVE to do that, it's just what they're trained to do. It has nothing to do with the design of the rifle.
>>1131207
>Now the best part is an extract from "le petit journal illustré" of September 20th 1914. It was written by a certain Henri Houssaye
>it's a 3 page long, disturbingly erotic depiction of what an infantry charge
If anybody would know where to find this one in english I would be very grateful, sounds like a fascinating read.
