We all know Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard were.
But what about Muhammad, Yeshua, Mosheph, and Siddhartha?
Were they trying to create cults? subcultures? Religions? Were these distinct concepts to them? Did they think they had a chance in hell, or were they just bored men?
I think the motivations of the historical central figures of the major religions is far more interesting than the resulting Faith(s).
Muhammad just wanted to be deified and rule the world
>>1119844
Have you ever read the quran
When you read the Quran, it is immediately obvious Muhammad was trying to fix all the "problems" he saw in Christianity and Judaism. Islam is not so much its own religion as a toolbox to be applied to existing religions.
>>1119844
This nigger
>>1119844
You retard or something
>>1119814
Middle east, early first century
A myriad of cults come and go
The scrolls speak of the messiah
Stories about this messiah are all around. They speak if wonders.
>Jesus is a 1st century meme
>>1119872
I know it's harder to tell with Yeshua since his historicity is more open to debate than Siddhartha and Muhammad, but I wanted the question to be open. So what about the other guys?
>>1119888
how about you read a fucking book nigger
>>1119814
There's actually a revisionist thread of early Islamic history that argues exactly what you're describing - that Mohammed wasn't trying to create a new religion, but a new "believers" movement similar to the Arabian tribal model from when he lived. Look up Fred Donner and/or Patricia Crone (Donner being the more conservative and Crone being the more liberal historian).
>>1119891
Which one? The Qur'an? Already did. Unoriginal, full of contradictions and edgy as sin.
>>1119905
>expecting originality from an Abrahamic religion
>>1119814
Yes, Muhammad was of course trying to create a new religion. Or rather, he believed he was bringing back the old religion, Islam is supposed to be a huge reformation. Well it was at the time, modern Islam is fucked.
>>1119844
Most ignorant post ever made about Islam. Literally contradicts the most central tenants of the religion.
>>1119905
If you read the quran there would be no way you could think Muhammad wanted to be deified.
>>1119905
>inb4 reply about Christians
That's usually what follows, let us observe
>>1119905
So is the bible.
>>1119905
The point my fellow /his/torians wanted to make is that Muhammad DECIDEDLY did not want to be deified.
You can talk as much shit about him as you please, to be fair he did quite a lot of nasty stuff, but one thing he did not do is search for deification. That's more up Jesus' alley.
>>1119923
>A bunch of passages about how the Prophet (peace be unto Him) is the best and most excellent of all human beings, you should always do as the Prophet (peace be unto Him) says, goy
>>1119814
It's generally understood Jesus's original teachings were not taken as a separate religion but a new branch of Judaism.
Buddhism is a rejection of a lot of Hindu beliefs. It may be seen as a new religion or an extremly different form of Hinduisms depending on what branch you are following and which perspective you take.
>>1119940
Those passages don't exist. They do say to follow him, they never call him perfect, in fact the quran calls hell of out him for making shit up at one point. You're demonstrating again how you haven't read it. I'm an ex muslim, i have read it.
>>1120047
So religion is github?
>>1120047
Chapter 33:57
Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! you also should invoke blessings on him and salute him with the salutation of peace.
Chapter 68:05 (Referring to the Prophet)
And thou dost, surely, possess sublime moral excellences.
Maybe I was wrong in saying he wanted to be deified, but there's definitely a cult of the Prophet here.
>>1120061
>Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! you also should invoke blessings on him and salute him with the salutation of peace.
Send blessings towards me, like God does. Also greet me by saying "As sala'amu alaikum" or "alayhi as salam" since he's dead now.
>And thou dost, surely, possess sublime moral excellences.
You're a good guy la.
I mean, this is incredibly mild. Jesus called himself God.
>>1119844
this.
>>1119919
>Most ignorant post ever made about Islam. Literally contradicts the most central tenants of the religion.
It's a ruse my friend. Mohammed just pretended to be humble, because he knew people will quasi deify him because of that. Mohammed declared himself "the seal of the prophets", meaning he will always remain the most important person in Islam. If a Muslim ever claimed god spoke to him, he would be branded a heretic instantly.
Mohammed's humility is the same as Augustus declaring himself "primus inter pares" - it's just an elaborate ruse.
>>1120061
Aha, you have to resort to blatant lies then?
68:05 says
>[68:5] You will see, and they will see.
33:57 says
>[33:57] Surely, those who oppose GOD and His messenger, GOD afflicts them with a curse in this life, and in the Hereafter; He has prepared for them a shameful retribution.
Basically if you don't follow him God will punish you and you'll go to hell, not worship him.
Pathetic dude
>>1120102
If he wanted to be deified he wouldn't have banned icons of himself or anyone else.
>>1120107
What blatant lies?
>"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (33:40)
>>1120110
I never said Jesus was better.
Mohammed aka "The last prophet FOR ALL ETERNITY" vs Jesus aka "the very son of GOD". It's a shitfest folks, get your heads out of your asses.
>>1120090
Jesus is God.
>>1120118
He is deified in the Shahada.
>>1120107
The fuck are you talking about, you stupid nigger?
[33:57] Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! you also should invoke blessings on him and salute him with the salutation of peace.
[68:5] And thou dost surely possess high moral excellences.
>>1120118
>humility is valued
>humility is holy
>having no face in a painting makes you stand out from all the people with faces in the painting.
>using humility for self aggrandizement is one of the oldest political techniques in the book.
>>1120150
>>1120134
Wherever you're getting those from, it's completely wrong.
http://al-quran.info/#33
http://al-quran.info/#68
>>1120149
Yes, part of the reason i left the religion, but you wont actually find that shahada in the quran. Modern Islam has found a way to worship Muhammad, my argument is Muhammad didn't want to be worshipped.
>>1120158
You're really grasping at straws. He went completely out of his way to avoid being defied. You're using the argument that this therefore was somehow a method to actually be defied. No, thats weak.
>>1120143
>claiming that they are similar in magnitude
How is this magnitude defined? Claiming that "I am the last man that god will ever speak to" is an extraordinarily egomaniac claim beyond all magnitudes.
So you see, both claims are so fantastic I can't really tell which one is greater. When somebody tells me the weather will be hot, I don't even believe that before I see for myself.
>>1120167
>my argument is Muhammad didn't want to be worshipped.
Why is his personal life then included in the Quran?
>>1120180
You know he said he's the last prophet, not the last messenger.
>>1120192
Because it was made up by him throughout the last 23 years of his life. It's obviously a lot to do with him, it doesn't mean he wanted to be worshipped. I don't know how him saying Dont worship me I'm just a guy could be any clearer.
>>1120167
>Wherever you're getting those from, it's completely wrong.
Says so in your own website famerlan, http://al-quran.info/#33:
"Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets, and Allah has knowledge of all things. "
40th verse
>>1120180
It's just because you're a bit dense, that's it. Claiming you're the LITERAL son of God, and thus literally GOD himself, an omnipotent deity, is somehow similar than claiming to be God's last prophet?
>I can't really tell which one is greater
It's because you're an idiot who's in denial about the historic Jesus Christ - a guy who claimed to be God but refused to show ANYTHING proving he was. Then he died on the cross.
>>1120143
You know He exists. What He did suffices.
Even in the quran Jesus > Mohammad.
Jesus born of a virgin; not so with Mohammad.
Jesus ascended alive into heaven; not so with Mohammad.
Jesus called the messiah; not so with Mohammad.
Jesus lived a sinless life; not so with Mohammad.
"god" contrived to rescue Jesus from death; not so with Mohammad, who was poisoned by a Jewess.
Even in the quran, Jesus > Mohammad.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
>>1120208
>refused to show ANYTHING proving he was
He did turn water into wine, cured blind, and all the other miracles - according to the Bible. Besides, his whole theology was about suffering and not giving a fuck, "turn the other cheek" and all that stuff. It was very consistent actually that he died on the cross.
>>1120208
Let's see. He fufilled hundreds of prohpecies about the messiah, and the messiah's to do list included things like dying and establishing an everlasting throne.
He lived a sinless life.
He turned water into wine, healed the blind, sick, palsied, lepers, deaf, mute, demon possessed, and raised the dead.
He walked on water, calmed storms, fed 10,000 people with a few loaves and fish several times, cured a woman of a bleeding disorder, cured a withered hand, caused cripples to walk, and made several prophecies about His own death and resurrection that all turned out to be true.
What He did suffices.
He probably just wanted Arabia to be unified by a Judeo-Christian tradition.
Along with Jesus, Muhammad was the greatest charlatan of all time
>>1120237
You're right up there pal.
>>1119814
A lot of good arguments have been made that Muhammad wasn't trying to start a new religion so much as give guidance and focus to an already existing religious culture of Abrahamic Arabs - not necessarily Arab Jews and Christians but not pagan either. For a long time these Abrahamic Arabs had already absorbed a lot of religion from the Jews and Christians around them, and what Muhammad did was to shake up the remaining vestiges of pagan influences in this culture.
Similarly neither Jesus nor Buddha likely aimed for completely new religions independent of or separate from the religious scene they lived and died in. All of them were probably aiming for starting another school of theology within their existing religious landscape where the boundaries between believer and non-believer wasn't as solid and ritualized as it is today. There was likely a spectrum of Judaic or Vedic influenced cultural movements, and only later once these movements spread to other cultures did this chaotic hodgepodge give way to strict, fearful barriers that defined one religion from all others.
>>1120172
>get a big offer
> turn it down
> seem like a swell guy
> get a bigger offer
You've never had this happen to you?
>>1120236
You can make these assertions all day long if you wish, but that doesn't make them true.
>>1120047
>in fact the quran calls hell of out him for making shit up at one point.
Really?
I wanna read that part.
>>1120890
Yes, the past is up for your approval on whether things happened or not.
/his/
Islam is shit, don't convert to it, don't believe the lies muslims tell. Growing up in an Islamic household wasnt great, neither was being forced into Islamic studies and the like.
>>1119814
In the 70's Michael Cook and Patricia Crone published a theory that a new religion wasn't the original plan. Instead Muhammad was more like Pope Urban II or Peter the Hermit (or Jesus really), a preacher who started a movement to lead a pilgrimage to the Holy Land to reclaim it, maybe in preparation for the end times, and that Umar was seen as the Jewish Messiah in his campaign to Jerusalem. After the conquest however the proto-Muslims started to split away from their Jewish confederates and began adopting Christian and Byzantine ideas in Damascus while in Iraq the proto-Shi'ites adopt a new Messiah in the form of the Mahdi and Ali's family. Taking cues from the Samaritans the Quran is written to recast Muhammad as a founding prophet of a new religion, while in Iraq theologians influenced by Rabbinical Judaism start constructing the foundations of Islamic law. Damascene and Iraqi thought is combined under the later Umayyads, and finally stabilized as a distinct religion under the Abbasids.
>>1119814
>Yeshua, Mosheph,
is this a cringe thread?
>>1120102
Muhammad and Muslims see him as the epitome of man, but he is still below god. Jesus is praised as the son of god and god himself.
>>1119814
I have no strong opinion on Mohammed. Morals are just inconceivable over 1100 years ago and we can't say "he was bad or good"
Assuming he wasn't actually a prophet, he showed great respect for Jesus and the teachings of the gospel and of many parts of the bible.
To me, and this backs up with what seem to be the actual beliefs of islam, Mohammed believed that Abrahamic religions have been perverted by mistranslations and intentional deceit by evil people. He sought to bring back what he viewed as the actual religion sent down from God to Abraham.
On the topic of why his personal life is written about so much. I'm not sure. I'd assume its because like most prophets, they included what could be actual events to back up their stories.
>>1119814
>Muhammad, Yeshua
You're going to nitpick on Jesus' name but not Mohammed?
>>1123556
Muhammed's name in Hebrew is same except may be "a" instead of "u"
>>1123613
>Hebrew
( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
>>1123795
Yeshua is the original name in Hebrew and then anglicised to Jesus
>>1119886
Mohammed's historicity is pretty well documented, the other guys not so much.
For Jesus there only a few non-biblical sources. All second or third hand accounts. If this was the historical record for a king or general we would dismiss them in a heartbeat.
>>1119814
>Were these distinct concepts to them
No they weren't. Abrahamic monotheism had been known in arabia and israel for centuries. The quran obviously plagiarised parts of the bible and added its own cherry. Christianity is a jewish religion glittered with european pagan imagery.
As for the buddha, he also derived his ideas from other shramanic religions and some would argue a few from the vedic religion.
None of them are distinct enough to be entirely unique to its founders.
>>1123858
you do know the hadiths were second hand accounts right?
>>1119919
>tenants
kill yourself
>>1120208
>It's because you're an idiot who's in denial about the historic Jesus Christ - a guy who claimed to be God but refused to show ANYTHING proving he was. Then he died on the cross.
The historical Jesus probably never even claimed to be God, but just a guy that God’s spirit was (temporarily) inhabiting. All the trinity nonsense came later.
>>1120054
>I'm going to branch this commandment
>>1124465
Muslims have a very strong faith that the the Quran is the same as it was 1400 years ago. This is a pretty central part of our religion. It is also said that if you try to memorize fake verses you will always end up forgetting them.
>>1123832
I wrote MU and also said it could be "a" instead of "u".
>>1124440
>The historical Jesus probably never even claimed to be God, but just a guy. All the nonsense came later.
ftfy
>>1119814
Muhammad was actually visited by a false angel of light, it was a demon, a fallen angel of deception. Satan and his workers are great mimickers and Muhammad, deceived, established a demonic cult of Allah (false-God) called Islam (meaning voluntary submission to this false-God, i.e. Satan) which he spread by the sword convinced that it was the last revelation of God Almighty.
Islam is none other than Satan's magnum opus, which now has 1.6 billion adherents (23% of the world population) and which will probably be followed by half of the world population by 2050.
>For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
>>1119814
>>1124924
Muhammad was Satan's pawn, merely a man, he was easily deceived.
Jesus is the Christ prophesied in scripture, born of God, undeceivable.
Islam's deceptions are endless:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas#Anachronisms
>>1124481
Again, why the hell would anyone talk about Mu in Hebrew? You are aware he's not mentioned in the bible, contrary to what the Quran says.
>>1120090
>Jesus called himself God
No, only the author of John implied that, and John wasn't written until probably around 120 AD.
>>1127267
Stop pulling dates out of your ass.
http://www.freebeginning.com/new_testament_dates/
>>1127267
and He did make it clear that He is God. Read the Holy Bible instead of spouting atheist memes.
>>1127975
Koran is the only book verifiably written by a prophet.
>>1127984
The Sri Guru Granth Sahib was written by their prophet.
>>1127973
>First and Second Timothy by Paul in the 1st century.
Yeah, what a good valid source you linked to.
>>1127973
There is an insane amount wrong with that list.
>>1127973
Not that guy, but 120 AD has been used as an upper limit to the dating of John, so it's not wholly implausible.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html
Mohammad claimed allah told him: “Were it not for you, I would not have created the universe.”
-Shawkani in al-Fawaid al-Majmoo’ah fi’l-Ahadeeth al-Mawdoo’ah
>>1120351
Not that I can weigh in on whether Muhammed pbuh wanted to start a new religion or not, but I like the idea of treating religion as these historical anomalies rather than getting caught up in their different theologies.
>>1120158
>that pic
>how many layers of metaphor are you on right now?
>like, maybe 5 or 6 right now my dude
>>1123832
yo ramba"m talks about him
>>1119814
Following the ancient theme of using religion as the oldest form of government / way of bringing 'order' to the masses, that (besides Jesus who was smart and got swept up in the times, and Buddha who beautifully overcame mental illness) they all worked with local governments to reform the populace.
Joseph Smith worked with a group of fellow Freemasons to create Mormonism as a study on manipulating populations using religion, but got swept up with the power of being a religious leader and refused to shut down and leave the project with his colleagues.
Muhammad popped up during the peak of the Arab Conquests and suddenly had a new way of controlling the masses of people they were conquering. Rather convenient.
Hinduism is rooted in ancient oral traditions.
Paganism comes from worshiping nature.
Ancient Egyptians rooted their religious beliefs around cycles of life and death.
The human brain is wired to think a certain way and want certain things.
Where did we come from? Where do we go? Why am I here? Why not do this or that?
If you're an orphan child you have no parents to tell you anything. Humans are like orphaned children.
I think originally these are the rough principles behind the being of God and reason for religious rules.
>>1120149
Socrates had some great ideas that he should be respected for, but he shouldn't be worshiped.
What makes Muhammed any greater that the writers of the Old and New Testament? Jesus didn't write the bible.
Jesus was a son of god like all men on earth are. Muhammed was also a son of god, but still just a man.
Just like Socrates, they would be insulted to find people worshiping them and not the things they stood for and taught.
Why is Al-Khwarzmi, one of the founding fathers of Algebra, not considered a messenger of Allah? He received some pretty valuable messages, or so I would think.
>>1128375
>Muhammad popped up during the peak of the Arab Conquests
Didnt he start the arab conquests rather than ride a wave
