How come people don't talk about these empires?
oh boy i'm sure this thread will have a very very high level of discourse golly gee whizz
>>1118143
This map is weird. Usually empire regional maps have like borders and explanations for what existed everywhere and shit. Look at a map of Europe at this time and everything will be "claimed".
Here it's all just barren save a few small kingdoms. Is central/southern Africa really this empty?
>>1118162
hunter gatherers, no dif than a map of the roman empire with a big bunch of nothing above it in germany
i find makuria really interesting
>>1118175
Reminds me of this argument used here. Horseshoe theory is real.
>>1118175
Doesn't take much to go "look at me, I'm a king but better than a king, wowowow!"
>>1118162
because 3/4s of Africa is inhabitable desert
Notice how all the tribes are established on top of the rivers
>>1118196
>inhabitable desert
Meant "uninhabitable desert"
>>1118162
The map was made by someone with a sparse understanding of pre colonial Africa
FFS "Akan" was not an empire, unless you're using it as a synonym for Ashanti
If my autism allows I'm going to create a better map
Central Africa (particularly the jungle) was largely depopulated save a few Pygmies and river folk
And Swahililand isn't even included on the map
Amateur work
>>1118196
More like 1/4th
The other half is grassland
And the last quarter is jungle
>>1118162
This is a map of the currently arable land in Africa. Notice how the best areas match up to the kingdoms?
Most of modern day Africa is either Desert or impenetrable jungle, which has shitty soil anyway. And "small" kingdoms is a stretch. They look small because Africa is huge.
>>1118234
What are people thinking when they spam posts like this on a history board?
>>1118211
People forget this over and over
The Songhai empire at its apex was the size of western europe
>>1118236
Autists love repeating catchphrases
>>1118143
Can you honestly call some of these Empires?
Mali, Songhai, and Ethiopia maybe, but the small shits everywhere?
lol great zembabwe empire.
Seriously though, there are a few states worth learning about pre 1500's and that's about it.
>>1118238
This. Judging by the OP map, it's close to the size of the continental US, lengthwise anyway.
>>1118248
An empire is an extensive collection of states rules by one supreme authority
They do homie
>>1118253
There's nothing pseudo-intellectual about pointing out the fact that you can't dicuss African history without some shitposter going "WE WUZ KANGZ"
>>1118143
Because they're obscure and irrelevant.
>>1118263
Your home board is /tv/
You niggers are worse than /v/, /sp/, and /pol/ combined
At least they're funny and don't force memes
>>1118264
Fair enough, that statement was mainly aimed at the second poster who was blatantly circle-jerking
>>1118273
close, i can give you 2 more guesses
>>1118266
The Romans were divided into tribes, as were the Greeks
Does that imply a lesser degree of political organization?
>>1118254
Is extensive unilateral according to scale?
>>1118278
Kill yourselves /int/
>>1118266
>Songhai empire
>tribal government
No
They don't matter
>>1118283
Not necessarily
>>1118286
almost there, 1 more guess
>>1118291
What's not necessary?
>>1118289
On the village level yeah
Anything above that was run by various governors and bureaucrats
>>1118291
The population of a specific area at a specific time? Probably seemed extensive to them. No?
>>1118295
A state is a state
>>1118304
Extensive refers to the number of states, not their populations
Rome began as a powerful city, but it couldn't be called an empire until it directly ruled 7 or more states
>>1118312
Or until someone called it an empire and a bunch of people agreed. Extensive means wide spread. People on foot and people on horses might have a different perspective
>>1118328
So you agree
>>1118347
I honestly have no clue and won't pretend to. I think the world is quite small after learning how extensive the universe is.
>>1118183
I find Makuria interesting because they stopped the Arabs in their tracks despite being a bunch of nobodies. I guess having an army that hasn't been destroyed by plague and 30 years of war really helps.
>>1118238
The Songhai Empire didn't exist until around the time the Roman Empire finally fell. And I mean the ERE.
For a little context.
>>1118551
That guy actually ruled Mali. His father also tried to sail across the Atlantic and never returned, which is kind of cool.
>>1118586
Askia ruled Mali? You sure about that?
>>1118598
Sorry, I thought you were talking about Mansa Musa.
>>1118551
>bankrupt an entire region because your empire has too much bling
God damn, those guys knew how to party.
Because they suck, and dont contribited in nothing to western society
>>1118294
Not an argument.
>>1118211
>Zimbabwe
>Best it can do is tan, mostly brown
It still hurts, my brus
>>1118143
Nations that didn't develop their own written language are clearly inferior and don't deserve to be discussed.
>>1119087
There are literally five civilizations in the entirety of pre-modern history who independently developed a system of writing.
>>1119087
So inferior tgeir people are making Wgite males an endangered specie
>>1119087
So inferior their people are making White males disappear from the planet
>>1118206
Don't forget the Bamum kingdom !
>>1119087
This.
what do you mean op? people talk about the persian empire and ptolemaic egypt all the time?
>>1119087
So Ethiopia deserves to be discussed?
They're not talked about because they didn't have guns germs or steel. Or farmland. Or domesticateable animals.
>>1119744
they had pyramid space stations though
and everyone was kings and queens back then
You know when talking about an EMPIRE I would expect something more grand than a bunch of huts encircled by a wall.
>>1120048
At least it's a proper stone structure and not a building made out of mud.
>>1120059
Yeah, but does it deserve to be called an empire? One would think the requirement for empire should be higher than "it's better than a mud hut."
>>1118183
>hunter gatherers
So why call them "empires"?
>no dif than a map of the roman empire with a big bunch of nothing above it in germany
Except nobody's going to call Roman-era Germanic areas "empires".
>>1120069
Never said it did. None of the subsaharan states outside of eastern africa come anywhere close to Eurasian or Mesoamerican civilizations.
>>1120085
That is one of the more hilariously deluded things I've read recently.
>>1120086
>the Sahara is a myth
>>1118211
Arable land is made.
Also note the deep green areas along South Africa's east coast, which was left unused just like the rest of the continent, and never even had an "empire".
>>1118391
The makurians had an treaty with the arabs that prevented the muslims from attacking in exchange of slaves and economic/trade privileges. I'm not trying to say they didn't stop the arabs, the nubians had to defeat the caliphal armies in battle to achieve this situation, but it's a correct assertion that nonetheless can't be made without further explanation.
>>1119087
Why?
>>1118551
>Lasted about 150 years
Longer than the mongols, Alexander's empire, Aztecs, Incas, Swedish empire, the German empire, etc. and they're discussed here all the time.
>and it's one notable "achievement" was mining so much gold that their kings bankrupted the near east when they went on Hajj.
That was Mali my friend
>>1120100
>the Sahara is 3/4 of Africa
wew lad
>>1118238
More like controlled a vast amount of jack shit. People sometimes think real life is a Paradox map painting game or something and don't comprehend population destiny. Pic related is the population density of Roman empire, outside of Anatolia and the coasts it was mostly nothing.
>>1120138
>destiny
Density hurr
>>1120112
>they're discussed here all the time.
That's because they're actually interesting and meaningful.
>>1120138
This map was done in MS paint with the spraycan tool
>>1120138
Where's that map from, friend?
>>1120161
Indeed. Your point?
>>1120168
I wipe my ass with it
>>1120174
Great post anon.
>>1118143
Because, while THEY WUZ KANGS, these empires aren't as note-worthy as Ancient Egypt.
>>1120260
>Alexander's Empire is discussed
Then we're not discussing it at all if we're referring to it's successor states who all did far more than the Macedonian empire. Collectively attributing these successor states to Alexander is akin to claiming the barbarian kingdoms of Western Europe are Roman.
Alexander was a shitty empire builder and definitely doesn't deserve credit for what is known to be the work of others in perserving Hellenistic culture in the Middle East (Ptolomie, Seleucus)
>Mudbricks
This is actually very useful material in their environment that they were fine with and they were better than Sumeria.
>Africans are worthless
Is that why Timbuktu was a great center of learning? Or why one of the Malian Empire's Emperors was extremely wealthy beyond thought? You also have Ethiopia and the Swahili city states
>>1120334
>was a great center of learning
speaking of which, I hear islamists destroyed everything last year. Also slavery.
>>1120164
http://members.home.nl/peetershans/rome.htm
>>1120334
>Collectively attributing these successor states to Alexander is akin to claiming the barbarian kingdoms of Western Europe are Roman.
Not at all. Alexander conquered the territory and upon his death it was split among his generals and officers. At best it represents dynastic shift rather than cultural and political discontinuity.
>Alexander was a shitty empire builder and definitely doesn't deserve credit for what is known to be the work of others in perserving Hellenistic culture in the Middle East (Ptolomie, Seleucus)
Wrong. Alexander was a pretty adept Empire builder, as is seen by his massive efforts to colonize the East, build Hellenic cities, and integrate native Persians into the ranks of his army.
He had plans for massive population transfers from Greece into Persia and vise versa to advance an agenda of a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural Empire.
The #1 reason the Hellenistic successors faltered so much, besides their inflexibility in battle, was their utter rejection of Alexander's plans which ushered in a segregated class system.
>This is actually very useful material in their environment that they were fine with and they were better than Sumeria.
>better than Sumeria
You're going to have to provide proofs for population size, density, agriculture, craftsmanship, and technology.
>Is that why Timbuktu was a great center of learning? Or why one of the Malian Empire's Emperors was extremely wealthy beyond thought? You also have Ethiopia and the Swahili city states
latetotheparty.jpg
>GREAT ZIMBABWE EMPIRE
How? It's so far down...
>>1118143
Empire of Mali and Morocco were pretty cool
>>1120376
>Dynastic Shift
It was never intended. It was a full on war among his generals and just shows Alexander's lack of premptivness to pick a heir. Again the barbarian of Europe can claim to be Roman but their achievments can't be attributed to the Romans as they directly had nothing to do with it.
>Wrong
All the stuff you listed were characteristic of the Persians. He never innovated or contributed to empire building unlike what the Romans had. Also, you're forgetting that Alexander was massive Persiaphile and I doubt these Iranic biased forms and population exchanges would go well with the Greeks who hated the Persians.
>Faltered
They may have been decedent but still carried on the task of preserving Greek culture. Remember the Library of Alexandria? Flourished under Ptolomie control.
>Provide proof
I'm on a shitty phone with slow internet so it will take some time but I am defintely sure that Africans were adept to architecture than the fucking Sumerians.
>Latetotheparty.jpg
What do you mean? As in why Africans took so long to have accomplished something? You have the Nok culture as well as Kongo.
Why do people on a history board of all places only care about history when it's "important"?
Shouldn't someone genuinely interested in history want to know it all, get all perspectives and uncover all that was concealed? Isn't learning for the sake of it a reward enough?
Why does a civilization have to have influenced our own western culture in order to be "important" enough to discuss? Seems like a stifling world-view to me
>>1118143
> Empire
of
> Ghana
>africans think that this tiny piece of shit is an empire
laughingwhores.jpg
>>1120447
Without Alexander's conquests there'd have been no Hellenistic kingdoms. Their achievement might be preserving and spreading Hellenic culture, but Alexander gave them the stage and set the tone.
>Also, you're forgetting that Alexander was massive Persiaphile and I doubt these Iranic biased forms and population exchanges would go well with the Greeks who hated the Persians.
It wasn't going over well even while he lived. It caused at least one mutiny. And the poor reception by the Greco-Macedonian troops was why the diadochi didn't follow through.
When I say 'faltered' I mean they got assfucked by Rome. The only Hellenistic kingdom to give Rome a real fight was Macedon, probably because it was relatively homogeneous compared to Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire.
Thanks for bringing up Alexandria though, on the topic of cities that were bastions of learning and knowledge..
>Nok & Kongo
That they used iron is impressive but I can't find anything concrete about architecture.
WE
WUZn't
>>1120447
>It was never intended
Newsflash: rulers almost never intend for dynastic shifts and struggles to happen.
On the contrary, rulers invariably try their best to avoid that shit.
>shows Alexander's lack of premptivness to pick a heir
The guy died suddenly, barely in his 30s.
I don't need to read the rest of your autistic ramblings to know you're just plain being stupid.
>>1120494
In Kongo most buildings decay super fast because the moisture and heat really fucks up buildings and plant life reclaims buildings fast.
Hell there's proplbably a lot of archeological shit to be found in their area.
>>1120467
People come here to confirm their biases or stroke their historical dick.
>>1121081
>Hell there's proplbably a lot of archeological shit to be found in their area.
Only from the colonial age.
>>1120494
>Without Alexander's conquests there'd have been no Hellenistic kingdoms. Their achievement might be preserving and spreading Hellenic culture, but Alexander gave them the stage and set the tone.
This is a flawed argument. When on the subject of the Hellenization era of the middle east, Alexander aside from constructing a few cities had very little to do with the fine arts and learning Greek culture had during this time. The library of Alexandria became prosperous under Ptolemy rule, the Selecuids built many cities that became centers of Hellenistic culture as well as aiding greatly to the colonization of the Middle East. It didn't matter if he conquered the territory if he wasn't personally responsible for those prosperous times. Give credit where it's due.
>When I say 'faltered' I mean they got assfucked by Rome. The only Hellenistic kingdom to give Rome a real fight was Macedon, probably because it was relatively homogeneous compared to Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire.
The Seleucid Empire only had major problems with the Jews and in fact their policy of multiculturalism was borrowed by Alexander who tried doing so in his empire. The other issue as well was over expansion. The Ptolemies suffered because of terrible rulers.
>Thanks for bringing up Alexandria though, on the topic of cities that were bastions of learning and knowledge..
Which was thanks to the Ptolemies.
>>1121193
>Alexander didn't spread Hellenization because he didn't personally produce works of art and learning
dude
>>1118143
because everyone hates black people
>>1121355
t.black person
>>1121088
Fair enough. Dubs confirm the truth
>Great
>Zimbabwe
>Empire
>>1120138
I think this "map" must've been meant more as an illustrative sketch, but I really must point out that it does not depict a population pattern that is at all consistent with 400 AD. Fifth century BC maybe, although you've still overemphasized the Euphrates river and Britain while under-emphasizing the Nile valley and delta, the Peloponnese, etc.
Let's just talk numbers. In the first century or so of the imperial period (Rome's height of power), the population of the city was about a million, the population of Italy was probably about ten million, and the population of the empire was in the neighborhood of a hundred million (or maybe more like half that number, depending on what assumptions are made about who the census counted etc.). Population estimates in the ancient world are pretty fuzzy, but it seems to be the case that about half the Roman population lived in Europe, with the other half divided between Africa and Asia, with the Asian population growing and the African population shrinking over time. By the time of the fall of Rome in the west, the eastern parts of the former empire had further increased in demographic importance, foreshadowing the continuity of roman rule in the east.
>>1119087
iirc some west African groups developed their own language out of a Arabic script
>>1120093
And what are you basing this is? Their building materials?
>>1120467
You're on a white nationalist website, if you want a mature history discussion I recommend going to one of the many history forums that are out there.
>>1124001
>You're on a white nationalist website
ever get tired of chasing ghosts?
>>1123985
Ajami script evolved into its own weird thing
It can be used to write down the Mandinka, Hausa, Fulani, and Wolof languages
I'm personally interested in talking about them, but the reason they don't receive very much attention is because they simply weren't as impressive, long-lasting, or effective as the states of the rest of the world. They also didn't keep good records, so it's hard to know the details.
The ones in East Africa are most worth talking about, but even they weren't terribly impressive. At the very least though, they weren't as pathetic as the ones in West Africa.
If you really think Sub-Saharan states are underplayed by modern historians, I don't know what to tell you other than that you probably have a social agenda because if anything they're overplayed using weak, purely anecdotal evidence.
>>1124001
>You're on a white nationalist website,
i thought it was jihad friedly imageboard
>>1125895
>They also didn't keep good records, so it's hard to know the details.
They kept better records than many better known civilisations. Likewise they were more well impressive, long-lasting etc. how many times have we been memed about native americans?
>they weren't as pathetic as the ones in West Africa.
I'd wager you're the one with the agenda.
>if anything they're overplayed using weak, purely anecdotal evidence.
Nope. The only African cultures who receive any attention are the Maasai and the Zulu, neither of which were very important or extensive. There are still fuckloads of manuscripts from the Sahel and Ethiopia which are left untranslated, vast areas left unexcavated and so on. It's a subject that's been left to sleep. Of course there are other civilisations that have been understated too, Central Asia and Indochina are pretty unknown too.
>>1125936
>They kept better records than many better known civilisations.
Could you link me to them? Not that it's your responsibility to educate me. I would gladly read whatever you put in front of me.
>I'd wager you're the one with the agenda.
It's colourful language, but I do think it's true. I evaluate the end result when paired with what was available to be kind of pathetic, in terms of working with one's resources.
>Nope. The only African cultures who receive any attention are the Maasai and the Zulu, neither of which were very important or extensive.
I agree that those two groups get way too much attention. I can only speak to my own experience in school, but during world history, there was a lot of attention thrown onto West African civilisations, even though their achievements and influences were limited compared to the East Africans, who were not even mentioned. I view this unbalanced focus as political, as almost all of the blacks here are of West African descent
>It's a subject that's been left to sleep.
I'm surprised there aren't people clambering to be on the cutting edge, then. Academics usually like that kind of thing.
>Of course there are other civilisations that have been understated too, Central Asia and Indochina are pretty unknown too.
That's true, but in Indochina's case, there's a lot that's been left behind. A LOT. If by Central Asia you mean Western China, there are unfortunate political reasons getting in the way.
>>1120349
Interesting article about a man in Timbuktu saving hundreds of thousands of medieval manuscripts from Al Queda in 2013. It would be a shame if they were all destroyed by ISIS.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-librarian-who-saved-timbuktus-cultural-treasures-from-al-qaeda-1460729998
>>1120486
it literally says underneath it that it was a protectorate of the British Empire.
whos saying that i was an actual empire? i'd like to meet your imaginary strawman
>>1118143
>Carthage
>Ayyubids
>Umyyads
People talk about those.
>>1126547
>I'm surprised there aren't people clambering to be on the cutting edge, then. Academics usually like that kind of thing.
Well it's a niche field. Think of all the historians in the world. Then eliminate the ones who aren't interested in East Africa. Then eliminate all the ones who aren't interested in 15th century Ethiopian literature. Then eliminate all the ones who can't read Ge'ez from that period.
And then you still have to convince monasteries and churches and libraries to let you look at their manuscripts, compensate them if you want to bring them somewhere for further study, and so on.
It's a lot more effort than writing yet another commentary on verse and poetry during the Hundred Years War or what have you.
>>1127006
That sucks. Isn't Ethiopia a relatively stable place compared to the rest of SSA? It would be great if they could uncover and dig up more history about that place.
>>1126547
>Could you link me to them? Not that it's your responsibility to educate me. I would gladly read whatever you put in front of me.
The Epic of Sundiata is the epic of Mali and Songhai. This is the only translated history I could find, though I know there were more translated by the French in the 19th century
https://books.google.com/books?id=kdEsWyzLnD8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn:9004128220&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwict_LJ3NXMAhVMx2MKHeyuDOkQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Here are a few manuscripts that the library of congress had, mostly regarding religious and Sufi text, antrology/astronomy, mathematics, legal documents.
https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/mali/mali-checklist.html
And here's a release from the tombouctou manuscripts project which has started to catalogue, translate and digitise manuscripts. There were two others projects devoted to this but they have since ended or shut down. This shows images of manuscripts and summaries of what they're about.
http://www.tombouctoumanuscripts.org/images/uploads/ScriptandScholarshipCatalogue.pdf
Sorry if this isn't great but I got bored of looking.
>>1126547
>I evaluate the end result when paired with what was available to be kind of pathetic, in terms of working with one's resources.
All I can say is I disagree. I think they were fine.
>I view this unbalanced focus as political, as almost all of the blacks here are of West African descent
I went to school in Ireland and our first mention of Africa was Vasco Da Gama sailing round it. Our second Mussolini in Abyssinia and the third was about Congo after colonisation. I'm rather surprised that this has been studied at all in America, though I think it's a good thing. It's normal that countries focus on info relative to their history. Maybe it's political but it's the same everywhere.
>>1126547
>I'm surprised there aren't people clambering to be on the cutting edge
there's a lack of funding, the only people interested are Islamic scholars, who I find dubious
>>1127244
>there's a lack of funding
This pretty much. There's an anecdote by Demeke Berhane when he and his team went to collect a bunch of Ethiopian manuscripts in the 60s to keep tourists from buying them off of locals who had ransacked abandoned mosques and churches and didn't really know how valuable what they were selling was.
The University of Addis Ababa gave him and his team a small amount of money for travel expenses and basically told them anything else they needed would have to come out of their own pocket, so they spent most of their time putting on kitschy fundraisers.
And not to disparge his work but all they got out of it was a few 19th century Islamic texts imported from Egypt and Sudan.
>>1127300
tonnes of malian documents were sold to tourists too, usually for like twenty dollars each. They're all sitting on some dickheads desk, never to be translated.
>>1120075
He is comparing the blank space to Germany not the colored empire spaces.
>>1127244
I'll check these out. Thanks. You didn't have to, of course.
I still have to point out that I think the fact that there's no solid physical footprint left behind or strong remnant of their civilisation is evidence of their ultimate unimportance, but that's not say they did absolutely nothing of interest. It's a real shame it's so hard to study them.
>>1123991
That and the fact that owning tracts of land infested with malaria and lions while unifying some hunter-gatherer tribes under you're control isn't even a tenth as impressive as what say Persia, the various Greek states, the Romans and the Chinese managed to accomplish. Fuck man their architecture isn't even remotely as impressive as what the Aztecs did with Tenochtitlan.
>>1118143
>all those West African civilizations
Damn, they really wuz kings and shit.
>>1118143
Ancient and later Christian Ethiopia were really cool. I like studying them a lot. Ghana, Mali and Songhai were all pretty neat too, as were Morocco. And tons of people talk about Egypt and Carthage.
Everything else is murky to me. I've heard of Kanem Bornu from Paradox's games. I've heard of Kongo as well and I think that they converted to Christianity when encountered by Yurop. I've also heard of Great Zimbabwe from Archaeology, but aside from the ruins of that site I'm not sure we know much about their political history.
Anybody wanna sell the other Empires on there to me? Are any of the ones I didn't mention super great or something? Was Kanem particularly significant?
>>1127750
>Hunter gatherers
Stopped reading there
>>1120112
>>Longer than the mongols
Not true, for the empire itself and especially if you include the successor khanates
Side note: anybody familiar with stuart munro-hay? He's a late archaeologist who was originally an Egyptologist but while excavating in that area became interested in ancient Axum. He's written some great things on that kingdom that helped to illustrate its significance among the great powers of that era. They were majorly involved with trade via the Red Sea (I think).
That having been said, when Africa kingdoms are discussed I usually do see discussion on the Nilotic kingdoms, Mali and Songhai. Seriously, what about the others? Does anybody have interesting tidbits to share about them?
>>1118252
yeah........ neva feuget.... fuck whitey.....
>>1120069
right you have to build tall things to be an empire, cause that makes sense
you faggot
I remember hearing from somewhere that part of why African history and archaeology is an underdeveloped study is that so much of Africa has been a clusterfuck for so long that it's hard to go and do research or digs.
>>1120159
>my fee-feeees
Cry harder.
>>1118143
I expect nobody talks about them because the literature isn't there. Most of those places are now craphole countries that don't output much culture to the rest of the world whereas Europeans, Americans and Asian peoples are obsessed with their empires, feel descended from them and said empires often output vast amounts of literature or culture of some sort with a lasting legacy.
Not going to elaborate on the 'Africa is xbox hueg' point because it's already been brought up.
Additionally they're empires if they're multi ethnic or multi national basically, and if you have a lot of different tribes with different languages and one central authority ruling over them that is a state or ethnicity in itself, well, that's an empire.
>>1120138
Surely this map only accounts for the largest population centers. I refuse to believe that there didn't exist plenty of villages and farms (important for feeding your empire) that existed off the beaten path with less traveled but nevertheless useful routes of travel. Not to mention sparsely inhabited areas with plentiful minerals for mining to render what must have been a sizable profit. The Romans were known for conducting massive excavations of the earth that wouldn't be rivaled in extensiveness for a few hundred years after all.
>>1118143
whats really got me wondering is why they don't talk about south east asia
SEA is fucking glorious and basically what south europe is to north europefor asia. they deserve more attention than they deserve, hell most of them are richer than koreans in most era
>>1118143
>Great
>Zimbabwe
>Empire
>>1128233
topkek