If the catholic church is not the true faith, why would God send Our Blessed Lady to Fatima to give us a message? Why would she ask for Catholic bishops to consecreate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, instead of asking Orthodox bishops?
Honest question, protestants need not apply
God bless, OP.
They will deny the miracles, in the same way they deny the saints. It's easier for them to pretend there is a huge catholic conspiracy.
>>1118350
To be clear, there actually is a catholic conspiracy: catholicism is a huge conspiracy of God, but it is open and doesn't work in the same way non-catholics think it does.
>>1118353
go on
>>1118350
Sun "miracles" are not unique to Fatima, or even sites with the backing of the Catholic church.
>>1118350
I don't need to, you're just a gullible moron
>>1118388
but about 100000 people witnessed the event. Many of them were atheists and communists who just went there convinced nothing would happen.
Portugal at the time was the most communist and atheist country in Europe.
How do you explain clothes turning dry in an instant after being drenched?
Are you really implying that the miracle of Fatima is comparable to the "sun spinning" that people of Medjugorje claim to have seen? Those people are as a matter of fact guillible, but Medjugorje is considered a scam by pretty much every decent catholic, and the Church has already pronounced its opinion that there is nothing supernatural there.
So explain your point of view please, thank you
>>1118694
>Portugal at the time was the most communist and atheist country in Europe.
no
>>1118694
>>how do you explain
Because it didn't happen the way you claim it did.
This supposed miracle is especially stupid because if the sun ever actually started moving around for real our planet would either be burnt to a crisp or thrown into deep space and freeze. You know nothing about anything related to the way our solar system actually works if you think the sun can just start moving around and the biggest change will be people's clothes drying.
I mean I'd ask for a source for each and every one of these supposed witnesses or something but we both know the best you have is some crank site on the internet.
>>1118694
>Are you really implying that the miracle of Fatima is comparable to the "sun spinning" that people of Medjugorje claim to have seen?
Not him but its essentially the same phenomena of mass hysteria. Ive heard claims that athiests have seen things at madijugorje, and indeed people keep coming there are reporting all kinds of things, when you have a crowd of religously charged people they will start making all sorts of "miraculous" claims that it would be impossible to falsify all of them to the satisfaction of believers.
Likewise many people there and at Fatima reportedly see nothing, probably because they are less susceptible to things like mental suggestion.
Sun "miracles" tend to pop up every few decades at similar events. It suggests that it has more to do with a crowd expecting a sign than with God delivering one.
I say all this as a former catholic, who learned about Fatima in school and sincerely believed it for most of my life
>>1118694
>So explain your point of view please, thank you
Self-verification and groupthink. There, that wasn't so hard, was it?
Whenever you have to pick between the laws of physics unexplicably changing and people just being dumb and gullible, you have to ask yourself which one is more likely. Then you remember that scores of people believe in alien abductions, Big Foot and the Loch Ness monster and then you pretty much got your answer
>>1118708
>This supposed miracle is especially stupid because if the sun ever actually started moving around for real our planet would either be burnt to a crisp or thrown into deep space and freeze
duh, that is why it is a miracle. A miracle is by definition something that cannot happen in nature. Or do you think people could have resurrected without Jesus' intervention? Be real
>You know nothing about anything related to the way our solar system actually works if you think the sun can just start moving around and the biggest change will be people's clothes drying.
I have actually been interested in astrophysics since I was a middle schooler, but thank you for your lesson on humility :3
>I mean I'd ask for a source for each and every one of these supposed witnesses or something but we both know the best you have is some crank site on the internet.
Loads of documentaries on in the internet. Critics are constantly bashing the prophecies, but even they cannot find a plausable excuse to the experience of all those thousands of atheists who got converted to Catholicism in a single day.
>>1118736
I think mass hysteria is very plausible.
>>1118716
>>1118716
>Ive heard claims that athiests have seen things at madijugorje
That is because there are evil spirits at Medjugorje right now. They probably had some sort of experience, but not one coming from "above". Atheists are not exactly the best people to be able to discern what is a legitimate spiritual experience and what isn't either way. In any case there has been nothing of the sort of Fatima happening in Medjugorje, you cannot compare the two phenomenons in anyway. I suggest to watch this and find out how the devil tries to lead people astray when it comes to apparitions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhabDczs0uE
>Sun "miracles" tend to pop up every few decades at similar events.
Your definition of "sun miracle" is absurd. Those people simply know about the event at Fatima, they look at the sun, and convince themselves it is spinning unto itself. Of course that is delusion. In Fatima though the sun dance throughout the whole sky
> when you have a crowd of religously charged people they will start making all sorts of "miraculous" claims
These "claims" have been confirmed by thousands and thousands of atheists and communists who hated both religion and the Church. They went there for the sole purpose of ridiculing the event, and yet they were convinced. These "miracles" do not happen often at all, and you should only look at those the Church acknowledges
About Medjugorje this video is pretty short and explains the problems with it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob8bHdjiPZA
>>1118736
>>god magic prevented the earth from being fried or thrown into deep space when the sun started moving around
Yeah no, this is why nobody takes this shit seriously.
>>Loads of documentaries on in the internet. Critics are constantly bashing the prophecies, but even they cannot find a plausable excuse to the experience of all those thousands of atheists who got converted to Catholicism in a single day.
This didn't actually happen so I have no idea what you think this proves. Seriously, portugal was not an atheist country in the early 20th century.
>>1118736
>thousands of atheists
>in one of the most catholic countries in the world
Shit, aprt from spain and italy portugal might be the most religious country in west europe.
>>1118743
if things went according to the accounts, then no. You are just assuming there was mass hysteria out of incredulity. Which as you well know, is a fallacy
>>1118748
Now perhaps. But back in the day Portugal was the most communist and atheist country in Europe. People thought the communist revolution would have occured in Portugal back then, and not in Russia.
The conversion of Portugal is one of the miracles of Fatima. Miracles are not only about "sun" events, you know? Many of them have to do with the faith. Just like pic related converted millions of South Americans
>>1118748
Yeah this whole thing is just really fucking dumb. I mean why in the fuck do theists even bother with this idiotic garbage?
>>herp derp de sun is moving around in da sky and god magic is why the eurth ain't been negutehively effectred by it.
Seriously? I mean the bible at least was written far enough back in history that the origins of the text are vague enough to allow for some bullshitting.
You can't say the same about early 20th century portugal.
>>1118747
>Yeah no, this is why nobody takes this shit seriously.
Miracles are by definition things that escape the laws of nature, as God is above nature and the only one who can bypass it.
>This didn't actually happen so I have no idea what you think this proves.
I didn't think you were an atheist. There is no point in discussing God with someone who denies him.
>Seriously, portugal was not an atheist country in the early 20th century
It was, certainly more than its neighbours
>>1118736
I love how in all of this, you never take human fallibility into consideration. Do you realize that human have been baffelingly wrong on literally innumerable things, in the most horrific fashion imaginable?
It's as if human jugdement is some kind of infallible tool to you, despite being wrong again and again, with examples such as "Those stocks will just keep on rising", "We'll be greeted as liberators", and "No, the Titanic cannot sink, what are you, stupid?"
>>1118753
>if things went according to the accounts, then no. You are just assuming there was mass hysteria out of incredulity. Which as you well know, is a fallacy
>>says the guy who thinks the sun can just dance around in the sky and we're okay because we're protected by his imaginary friend's magical powers.
Uh-huh. You are stupid, and incredibly gullible. i have never been happier to be a "fedora" then right now.
>>1118744
Ah of course, spiritual experiences and apparitions that do not conform to Catholic doctrine are the work of demons, but those that do come from the most high!
I know exactly why the church has (rightly) rejected Medjugorje. its just to bad they dont turn a critical eye to other supposed apparitions
Listen to yourself, the confirmation bias dripping from that statement is absurd.
Confirmed is a strong word. there are certainly alot of people who claimed to have seen something, and I am sure atheist who were converted. Atheist are just as prone to suggestion and hallucination as anyone.
>>1118764
>I love how in all of this, you never take human fallibility into consideration
I do, but you will have to show me how people failed. Your argument is that since people are fallible, they will always make mistakes, especially when you want them do. Since you cannot fathom the possibility of miracles, you attribute fallibility to people who experienced them 100% of the times, but that is just out of bias.
Fallibility =/= being always wrong.
You will have to prove me they made a mistake, something more tangible than "I don't believe in miracles therefore they cannot have witnessed one". That is an argument out of incredulity and bias and cannot be accepted.
>>1118766
>Uh-huh. You are stupid, and incredibly gullible. i have never been happier to be a "fedora" then right now.
As they say, ignorance is bliss
we'll see who'll have the last laugh
>>1118761
>>Miracles are by definition things that escape the laws of nature, as God is above nature and the only one who can bypass it.
This is a nonsensical statement as there is no evidence for the existence of the christian god.
>>I didn't think you were an atheist. There is no point in discussing God with someone who denies him.
Nice cop out. Your own church says that it's parishioners are not required to believe this silly crap.
>>It was, certainly more than its neighbours
>>socialist movement exists in country due to dissatisfaction with the current government means country is more atheist then it's neighbor.
>>portugal's neighbor was spain, which had a civil war between traditionalists. including christian traditionalists, and liberal, socialist and anarchist groups.
You know nothing about either cosmology or history.
>>1118753
But that's wrong. While it's true that in 1910 the syate forcefully separated the church from the state and in fact imposed some bans like wearing the garb in the street or bell ringing just 15 years later Salazar discontinued those practices before any significant impact on religious composition could be made. And in fact you could argue that "the miracle" was either orchestrated by clerics or a result of peoples' faith and their revolt against secular movement. Portugal was and remaind strongly catholic.
>>1118759
If you don't have anything constructive to contribute please refrain feom trolling
>>1118744
And its not incredulity by the way, its just a skeptical eye. The prophecies are less than water tight, and that other similar events have taken place in regards to the sun, suggests the possibility of repeatably and the mundane.
Even the church would concede that when a scientific explanation is possible it is to be preferred.
>>1118768
>> spiritual experiences and apparitions that do not conform to Catholic doctrine are the work of demon
Logically so. The Catholic doctrine and dogma is unchangable and inspired by God. Since God obviously does not change his mind, it is only fair to assume that private revelations that go against Catholic dogma do not come from God. This is only one of the things the Church looks to, when discerning if an apparition is true or not. I sent you that video exactly so you can educate yourself.
> its just to bad they dont turn a critical eye to other supposed apparitions
No, that is not the reason. The Bishop of that region (who is the one who is supposed to affirm the authenticity or not) already said that there is nothing supernatural about it. If you want to know more about the reasons why the Church has not specifically condemned it, watch this video. None of the reasons have to do with the faith or the dogma of the Church:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFb46ZlkCrE
>Listen to yourself, the confirmation bias dripping from that statement is absurd.
Perhaps it is your confirmation bias that sees confirmation bias in me, think about that ;)
>Atheist are just as prone to suggestion and hallucination as anyone.
Sure, but as usual you only see suggestion and hallucination when things go differently from what you believe in. You are moved by bias and incredulity more than anything else.
>>1118780
>If you don't have anything constructive to contribute please refrain feom trolling
Oh fucking please, this whole fucking thread is a gigantic shitpost that the janny should rightfully delete.
Furthermore, anybody who says something extremely stupid on 4chan can expect to be mocked for it. Nobody gets immunity from this.
>>1118777
>This is a nonsensical statement as there is no evidence for the existence of the christian god.
No evidence is enough to those who don't want to believe. Specifically those who do not WANT.
>Nice cop out. Your own church says that it's parishioners are not required to believe this silly crap.
We are supposed to strongly reject what the Church rejects. What the Church approves, when it comes to private revelations, we can choose whether to believe or not, but they are not part of dogma. If a private revelation is accepted by the Church, it means it conforms to dogma anyway. So I really see no contradiction there at all.
>You know nothing about either cosmology or history.
socialism =/= communism. You must be american.
>>1118788
Sure, but the way you write can also be seen as really stupid and inane, so, tip that fedora other way.
>>1118793
>No evidence is enough to those who don't want to believe. Specifically those who do not WANT.
Blah blah more cop outs.
>but they are not part of dogma
This isn't part of your dogma because guess what? Your church knows that it didn't actually happen.
>>socialism =/= communism. You must be american.
And we have gotten to the semantic hair splitting now. Both socialism and communism are heavily materialist philosophies favored by left-leaning atheists.
>>1118784
No, that is not the reason. The Bishop of that region (who is the one who is supposed to affirm the authenticity or not) already said that there is nothing supernatural about it. If you want to know more about the reasons why the Church has not specifically condemned it, watch this video. None of the reasons have to do with the faith or the dogma of the Church:
I didnt mention the reason.
was raised Catholic and I already know this stuff. I did a lot of thinking and research before I left.
>Logically so. The Catholic doctrine and dogma is unchangeable and inspired by God. Since God obviously does not change his mind, it is only fair to assume that private revelations that go against Catholic dogma do not come from God
Protestants say the same thing about Catholic miracles. Your statement only makes sense to people who already believe as you do.
>Sure, but as usual you only see suggestion and hallucination when things go differently from what you believe in. You are moved by bias and incredulity more than anything else.
No I see those things because they are somewhat more plausible. as I said here>>1118782
>>1118774
>Since you cannot fathom the possibility of miracles, you attribute fallibility to people who experienced them 100% of the times, but that is just out of bias.
No, that's out of the fact that you consider human judgement apparently infallible, when there are also millions of people who believe that the pyramids were build by ancient aliens and that the world is rule by an elite of secret lizard people. I guess that's also true now.
If you've proven any bias, it's your own. I'm simply saying that people being gullible is a whole lot more likely than the laws of physics suddenly changing without anyone ever noticing, except of course for a subgroup of religious people, a subgroup you conveniently subscribe to. Because I'm totally the bias one here and such a miracle being true wouldn't benefit Catholicism at all.
>>1118780
>>1118780
>15 years later Salazar discontinued those practices
So after Fatima the country became more religious. Kind of proves my point.
>"the miracle" was either orchestrated by clerics or a result of peoples' faith and their revolt against secular movement
Except that is completely wrong. As I said it was full of atheists and communists who went there for the sole purpose of laughing at the faithful for believing in "le sky daddy XDDD". You can read the story in communist newspapers from the time, and they confirm the miracle.
>>1118782
>its just a skeptical eye
It is not skepticisim when you suppose that miracles "cannot" happen. It is simply incredulity.
>The prophecies are less than water tight
not really
>other similar events have taken place in regards to the sun
Again no. That is what similar events have done, to try and gain legitimacy by copying things. It is also not a coincidence stuff like this happens in Medjugorje. By associating a true miracle with false ones, people start believing that the true one didn't actually happen. The devil is an enemy of the Church. Of course you don't believe it exists though, so I cannot point to that.
>Even the church would concede that when a scientific explanation is possible it is to be preferred.
Absolutely. But if the Church does not find any, then there is no reason not to attest to the miracle happening.
>>1118804
>>Blah blah more cop outs.
>everything that does not agree with me is a cop out
ok kid
>This isn't part of your dogma because guess what?
Fatima is accepted by the Church, you are misinformed. Private revelations are not dogma, as I have already explained, in no case. Don't make me repeat myself
>Both socialism and communism are heavily materialist philosophies favored by left-leaning atheists.
So I was right, you are american. You are the one spitting hair now. A socialist society and a communist one are completely different, in both their structure and their goals
>b-but muh philosophy
>>1118810
>So after Fatima the country became more religious. Kind of proves my point.
No, it continued being religious, 1910. Edict failed to do jack shit is my point.
>>1118807
>was raised Catholic and I already know this stuff. I did a lot of thinking and research before I left.
That led you astray, as I can see. Also I can't take your word for it that you did "a lot of research".
>Protestants say the same thing about Catholic miracles.
I don't get what you are referring to. Protestants usually do not believe in miracles at all, let alone miracles from those who believe in "babylon" or whatever.
>Your statement only makes sense to people who already believe as you do.
this is just so stupid I am not going to address it
>No I see those things because they are somewhat more plausible
plausible =/= true. You have no reason to assume 100000 people, thousands of them atheists, all had a hallucination. By definitely excluding the possibility of the miracle being true, you are only attesting to your bias
>>1118810
>It is not skepticism when you suppose that miracles "cannot" happen. It is simply incredulity.
Ok I am not the guy saying miracles cannot happen. that something I could never prove anyway. I think they are unlikely, granted but I am not beyond being convinced.
>not really
They predicted the war would end that day.
>Again no. That is what similar events have done, to try and gain legitimacy by copying things
That is certainly your take on it, but its not very convincing. There are other elements of the Fatima story that are similar to other religious/ historical events. The focus of the event being a young woman having visions for instance is a theme shared in both the Catholic church and other religions.
>>1118838
>this is just so stupid I am not going to address it
You said: Logically so. The Catholic doctrine and dogma is unchangable and inspired by God. Since God obviously does not change his mind, it is only fair to assume that private revelations that go against Catholic dogma do not come from God.
Who besides a Catholic would agree with your statement?
>>1118808
>that's out of the fact that you consider human judgement apparently infallible
I don't. I have no reason to believe it failed that day
>when there are also millions of people who believe that the pyramids were build by ancient aliens and that the world is rule by an elite of secret lizard people. I guess that's also true now.
False equivalence, and there was never an alien appearing to 100000 people of different social class and beliefs. Actually the fact that a similar thing never happened is kind of proof that yours is a false equivalence that results from your will to reject anything that does not conform to your materialistic and atheistic point of view
>If you've proven any bias, it's your own
Projection
>except of course for a subgroup of religious people
As I said, and I will repeat, thousands and thousands of atheists who went there expecting nothing to happen.
>Because I'm totally the bias one here and such a miracle being true wouldn't benefit Catholicism at all.
Miracles neither benefit nor harm the Church. If they benefitted as you say, then the Church would simply accept all of them, instead of hineously analysing them as they have always done before giving their judgement
>>1118810
>communist newspapers from the time, and they confirm the miracle
Post it. Also as someone who lived behind the iron curtain I can tell you a lot of "communist atheists" only declared as such as not to get in trouble while practicing at home or in our case church, because as much as hardcore christfags want us to believe that our commie government didn't give a shit what people believed in as long as everyone worked and obeyed.
>>1118847
>Who besides a Catholic would agree with your statement?
Why would someone disagree with it? Even if you are a Protestant, if you know Catholic doctrine, you would agree that is the stance of the Catholic Church.
Even if you don't believe in God, that is Catholic doctrine, so I don't see why anyone would disagree with my statement.
If you think the Church approved private revelations that go against dogma, then you will have to show me which ones and in what they differed from Catholic dogma.
>>1118850
Tell me papist, is anything in this whole Fatima story falsifiable? Or is falsifiability conveniently some kind of heresy whenever it doesn't benefit your church?
>>1118747
Oh yeah and I would like to know what a bunch of sketchy youtube videos is supposed to prove. There are youtube videos that "prove" the earth is flat. You need a lot more then "documentaries" on the internet to prove something.
>>1118856
Certainly that is the Catholic stance, but that was not my point.
You remind me of a relative. a very educated man but incapable of even entertaining the idea the church proper could be wrong about something.
>>1118860
>papist
stopped reading there
>>1118863
then read books about it, it's not like you cannot learn about the events either way
>>1118865
>incapable of even entertaining the idea the church proper could be wrong about something.
The Church makes mistakes all the time. For example they disobeyed Our Blessed Lady and did not reveal part of the Fatima message. That is something Catholics are extremely pissed off about, and I am ready to bet God is too. The Church nowadays lives through very perilous moments, it is not a secret. That said, dogma and doctrine remain unchanged, and that is what we have to preserve.
>>1118856
Banning the loans
Slavery
Executions of infidels and heretics
Separation of state and church
Those were all at one point included in the catholic dogma.
>>1118874
>>then read books about it, it's not like you cannot learn about the events either way
Lemme guess, the books that agree with you on this issue and where you probably got these silly ideas from? That isn't good enough either. :^)
>>1118874
By church proper I kinda meant dogma
>>1118880
None of these are private revelations, you are going off-topic and doing damage control. Try again :3
>>1118881
No, read any book you'd like. Actually read more than one, each one having a differing opinions. Good luck m8 :3
>>1118882
The dogma cannot be wrong because it comes from God. If anything it is our understanding of the dogma that is flawed.
>>1118891
>The dogma cannot be wrong because it comes from God
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
If you cant even entertain possibilities, how will you ever grow intellectually?
>>1118900
you can grow intellectually as much as you want in everything else, even improve your understanding of the dogma, but you cannot deny it. Simple as that ;)
>>1118900
This assumes they're here for something other then preaching, which is obviously false.
>>1118891
I'm sure during inquisition there were plenty of people who had 'private revalations' about it's fallacy. And in fact because the infallable word of God is interpreted by men who are not infallable church dogma is not exused from being wrong. Who's to say that I'm not divinely inspired to change your obsolete view of the church?
>>1118909
Well that's clear, It also shows that Aristotle got his wording wrong. You can be well educated but still incapable of engaging ideas you dont like. intellectual mind or virtuous mind would fit better.
People post threads here asking why people do not believe in this or that, and when they get an honest answer they attack it, and sometimes the person posting.
newsflash: your beliefs probably are not as self evident as you think they are
>>1118823
>>everything that does not agree with me is a cop out
No, everything that asserts blatant bullshit and then offers handwaving when called on that bullshit is though.
Bullshit like the sun dancing around in the sky while the earth is somehow protected from this due to what is basically magic for example.
>>Fatima is "accepted" by the Church, you are misinformed.
There is a very good reason why your church says catholics are not required to believe in it and that reason isn't "a liberal/atheist conspiracy".
>>So I was right, you are american. You are the one spitting hair now. A socialist society and a communist one are completely different, in both their structure and their goals
What relevance does this have to the simple fact that portugal is not now and was not then an atheist country?
>>1118921
>he fell for the inquisition meme
Watch this video. You will see the example of a woman who admitted she married the devil, and how the inquisition dealt with her
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhabDczs0uE
>>1118926
>everything that does not agree with me is blatant bullshit
>muh incredulity is a fact
ok kid
>There is a very good reason why your church says catholics are not required to believe
It has simply always been Church doctrine. Your implication that they do so because private revelations are bullshit is simply wrong for 2 reasons:
1) They reject almost all of them
2) The ones they accept conform to dogma so accepting them has no effect whatsoever
>>1118921
>Who's to say that I'm not divinely inspired to change your obsolete view of the church?
The Church is to say it, which they obviousy wouldn't because dogma does not change :3
>>1118936
>ok kid
>>says the guy who thinks that both the sun can dance around in the sky and that our planet is protected from the negative effects of this by what are essentially the magical powers of his imaginary friend.
>>Muh church doctrine.
Dude, this thing didn't actually happen, your church doesn't want a schism from the people who think that it does and the people who don't buy it and thus they say that you are not required to believe in it.
The catholic church is cagey as fuck and will be the last of the christian denominations to die out.
>>1118936
>cherrypicking
What about galileo, kepler and others? What about hundreds of innocents who were killed during inquisition
Also
>torturing people till they choose to "confess"
Great job man.
>>1118948
>let me tell you about your church
ebin :3
>>1118952
The convinced people to confess because if they didn't they would be put to death; the whole time was present a medic who would ensure the tortured wouldn't dire from the torture. It was the secular governments who were putting people to death anyway, and many people actually specifically asked to be judged by the inquisition because they treated them more humanely and their sentences were lighter.
This thread is not about the inquisition though. We'll talk about it another time :3
Even if you believe the inquisition was despicable, that is the result of flawed people living and acting in a corrupt world, and has not connection to Church dogma and the message of Catholicism.
>galileo
nice meme. A man who personally knew the Pope and had private meetings with him. He was only treated like that because he acted like a cunt
>>1118967
>ebin :3
Nah
>>in the same post he attempts to engage in apologetics for the inquistion
This is really the ebin meme brah :3.
>>1118977
not an argument ;)
>>1118967
>it's OK to inflict unimaginable pain upon people as long as tou don't kill them.
>that is the result of flawed people living and acting in a corrupt world, and has not connection to Church dogma and the message of Catholicism.
Oh but it was. It was not run by state, it was run by church. And you say yourself people are flawed, so even if God is always right it's highly possible we're interpreting it wrong? Just look at church and how it went from being exclusionist to todays pope confirming that even non believers and heretics can attain heaven simply by abiding by christian morals.
But you're just trolling now so I'll stop and let this thread die
>>1118982
Right back at you. :^)
>>1119000
>pope confirming that even non believers and heretics can attain heaven
He didn't say that, he just avoids saying the opposite in public because of PR. Of course it is wrong, and this Pope isn't a good one (not even the worst we've had though). I suggest you read what Catherina Emmerik predicted about "the time of the two popes".
This is a very particular time for the Church, a time of crisis, it is not a secret.
> It was not run by state, it was run by church
The inquisition, sure. But people were sentenced by the secular state, even without the inquisition, and more harshly so. I have already said I won't be discussing this topic itt.
>so even if God is always right it's highly possible we're interpreting it wrong?
Not really. Dogma does not change. The devil has infiltrated the Church though. Read about the vision had by Pope XIII. The good news is that this state of affairs won't last forever, and that in the end the Immaculate Heart will triumph.
>>1119035
*Pope Leo XIII
>>1119035
I've heard so many conflicting opinions of authority within The Church, I don't even know what is heretical anymore.
For instance, Is the new mass heretical? Is the new ordination rite heretical? Where can I receive the sacraments? Just war? How can I play it safe? It's very confusing for someone looking to convert to Catholicism.
>>1119263
That's the funny thing. Turns out "contrary to (what I assume to be) God" and "contrary to the church" can both change, and if one doesn't line up with the other you get a real problem.
>Medjugorje is a scam
It isn't. I personally know people in my family who experienced things there together and witnessed the appearence of Our Lady. I know you have no reason to believe me, but things are happening there and the same events are described by many people individually. Not just the regular witnesses, but the visitors too.
I'm hesitant to believe those regular witnesses receiving messages every so often, but something is going on.
Dear Sedevacantists, what canon law do you actually adhere to?
>>1119387
>something is going on.
bad spirits
Refer to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFb46ZlkCrE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhabDczs0uE
>>1119263
>is the new mass heretical?
no
>Where can I receive the sacraments
catholic churches. If you prefer the latin rite, FSSP.
>Just war?
yes
>How can I play it safe?
Obeying Church dogma
> It's very confusing for someone looking to convert to Catholicism.
It is confusing because the enemy of the Church work hard to lead people astray
>>1119349
>Turns out "contrary to (what I assume to be) God" and "contrary to the church" can both change
Wrong. Educate yourself.
>>1116380
None of it happened and you are a fool
>>1120055
you sure showed me m8
>>1116380
Why can't you people do miracles as stated that you would be able to?
Go redistribute the mountains of the world that we may see if you are what you say you are.
>>1118350
>They will deny the miracles
What miracles? Do one.
It's very easy to deny things that never happened, and accurate too.
>we have this picture of a virgin appearing in a photograph!
That's cool m8.
How do I know that spirit is who it claims it is?
Your very own bible says to test the spirits.
Well? How do I know?
>I-it looks like in the pictures with the round thing in the head and all!
Uh-huh. Meaning?
>y-you condemn yourself!
Why!? For doubting a "faith" that's not persecuted at all while they claim they are persecuted?
>All will hate you! You will be persecuted! You have to endue to the end!
It doesn't resonate with a catholic life of being at home pretending you are what you are not.
You are so persecuted and hated that your pedos, a known crime, are never jailed.
>T-that's God protecting us.
Oh, so there isn't a persecution that was there to be because suddenly you are all protected and your bible tells lies about persecutions that will never happen and hatred that will never come because of... "protection".
And apparently you people don't even have to do what you were allegedly told to do because of more protection, I'm sure of it.
More than protection I will claim lies, because you are so protected your countries fall to terrorist attacks like everyone else.
This is your moment to do an actual miracle to prove me wrong. See the Everest? Place it in Boston.
>>1116380
The message was garbage and demonic in origin, as all Marian apparitions are demonic.
>>1120608
>larping with yourself
anon no
>>1120574
Gee, if only the bible had something to say about your theory.
Luke 11:29 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.
Oh, hey, it says you're evil.
>>1118694
>Portugal at the time was the most communist and atheist country in Europe.
