Why did the Catholich Church go full retard and start selling indulgences?
Didn't they realize people cpuld get quite pissed from it?
>>1102282
>Why did the Catholich Church go full retard and start selling indulgences?
Repairs aren't cheap. They needed money for shit.
>>1102282
it seemed to make sense, to the people moreso than to the church
>>1102282
What a poorly worded question. While the subject is a legitimate topic, your manner of presenting it is offensive.
Your post is troll like and should be considered
BAIT
A
I
T
Clearly it's sinful to withhold salvation for all by bankrupting the One True Latin Church. To prevent such bankruptcy, the Church made the most benevolent and ethical choice it could: ensure the salvation of the rich while also ensuring Mother Church could exist for centuries to come. Anyone against indulgences is clearly against salvation.
>>1102333
So basically trying to protect themselves by making a decision that isn't popular but will help them in the end?
>>1102291
And then they lost northern Europe because of shit.
>>1102343
And northern Europe can go to hell for being a faggot that can't go up to the Church and ask.
>>1102351
We did go up to the Church with a hammer though.
>>1102282
Lets get one thing straight, indulgences only take time off purgatory, they do not insure salvation under church doctrine.
You can still get indulgences, they just put limits on selling them to prevent abuse
>>1102356
And you should burn using a hammer when you could of used your head and been nice and be with the system to ask the Pope to please stop this paying money for indulgence.
Martin Luther is a supporter of the Jews.
>>1102282
To be really fair, both the Catholics and Protties started to ignore the parts about usury and got really rich off it.
I mean how can something that was illegal and a mortal sin for 1000 years become OK to do.
I suppose even the Church turns a blind eye to money making when it lines their pockets.
>>1102371
Martin luther did try to ask them nicely though. Then they tried to have him burned for it.
>>1102282
>Didn't they realize people cpuld get quite pissed from it?
DLCs were not a thing yet, They could not know about people opposing buying upgrades.
>>1102381
>Post shit on the door
>nicely
That's the wrong way to do it.
>>1102384
He was just posting a rant on their time's facebook
>>1102424
Then maybe he should of kept his whore mouth shut on the message board and thought up of a way to go to Rome and go ask the Pope about the indulgence situation.
>>1102371
>Martin Luther is a supporter of the Jews
Either you are trolling or you are ignorant as fuck about what you are talking about. Martin Luther was extremely hateful of jews and openly advocated jewish genocide
>>1102451
Only after he stopped being funded by the Jews you kike loving protestant.
>>1102440
Maybe the pope shouldn't have burned thise that tried to do that at the stake.
>>1102490
Maybe Martin Luther should of again, kept his whore mouth shut and not nail the fucker on the goddamn door.
>>1102503
And for the first time, maybe the Pope should have kept true to his humble duty rather than becoming so corrupt people like the Borgias could become popes.
>>1102527
You mean die in Rome because pagans got triggered that he was trying to spread the word of Christ?
Maybe you should realize that it doesn't matter and money for indulgences work because it makes the damn Church look better.
>Protestant hate
Why is this so common on 4chan discussions? This is a humanities board, so surely you must understand the Protestant Reformation was inevitable? Regardless of specific theology, it was ultimately a matter of authority and control. The rise of the middle class and the redistribution of authority since the early middle ages made the matter of church authority an obvious target, it's like being upset that your sand and rock dam collapsed in a stream.
>>1102547
I think it's counter autism against the fundies on here
>>1102547
Pure contrarianism.
>>1102568
Sniff
>>1102547
Because of what happen next. The whole:
>sola scriptura
>Sola Fide
>Fuck Peter
>lets support the Jews
>lets ruin the art here and act like Muslims
>let's help jews make up shit like atheism and nihlism
>lets help push back actual science back like evolution
Name me one fault in the Catholic Church.
When a group is in power for so long they tend to forget that they can be overthrown.
>>1102560
>>1102568
I always suspect it's a bit of that ethnic barrier that Catholics/Protestants run into with one another and is more culture/class/national origin related. Get two atheists together and you will hear, "Well, I don't believe in God, but Catholic theology makes WAY more sense..." and vice versa, and the two will still argue.
>>1102547
Fuck off Marxist.
>>1102580
It wasn't like they almost got btfo by an irrelevant shithole to the east of Germany afew years prior to that.
>>1102576
>let's support the Jews
How can you be this wilfully ignorant? At least read On the Jews and their Lies
>>1102590
>medieval Bohemia
>irrelevant shithole
This thread is embarrassingly retarded
>>1102597
>How can you be this wilfully ignorant?
I'm assuming that you are an American. And, with that. You support Israel, because Israel is the state for the Jews.
Now, if you're going to say that Martin Luther hated the Jews, now let me ask you this, is Martin Luther a Prophet?
Protestantism in America mostly support Israel and the Jews. If you ignore that then you are willingly ignorant of the situation, you goddamn kike.
>>1102576
>>Name me one fault in the Catholic Church.
Corruption.
I could be really snippy here and point out that they seriously believe in the christian god when there is no good reason to do so anymore, but really ignoring that you still have the matter of tremendous amounts of corruption.
Especially if we're talking about the catholic church of the late middle ages/early renaissance
>>1102606
>I'm assuming that you are an American.
No.
>You support Israel
No.
>is Martin Luther a Prophet?
No.
Are you actually retarded or just pretending? What the fuck does Luther have to do with American imbeciles if he existed centuries before America was a thing and most Americans aren't even Lutheran?
>>1102576
>Perfectly logical
>Perfectly logical
>Yet, Catholics: "Fuck Paul, fuck scripture, fuck St. Augustine."
>Let's worship icons
>citation needed
If your definition of Protestant is purely western Christian denominations that are not in union with Rome, then of course you can make any generalization you want and attach it to the term "Protestant". How about I focus on some Mexican woman's belief that fulfilling God's will is to endlessly reproduce?
>>1102611
>Corruption.
So what? Do you not like art?
>>1102614
>What the fuck does Luther have to do with American imbeciles if he existed centuries before America was a thing and most Americans aren't even Lutheran?
>people in the Lutheran Church were forced to apologized about what Martin Luther said
>Protestants, the fucking stem of Martin Luther autistic sperging now helps the Jews out
It doesn't fucking matter what Martin Luther said if the fucking people don't do it.
>>1102622
American protestants are mostly baptists and reformed, not Lutherans. You fucking mental cripple. Also nice backpedalling.
>>1102622
>>corruption is no big deal because of pretty paintings and statues
lol
Besides which abrahamic religious art isn't really my thing. My artistic tastes run closer to the pornographic and the violent then they do the sacred as defined by monotheists.
>>1102622
>muh art
Your art can get fucked, idolater.
>>1102604
I was just playing retarded for a comedic effect.
>>1102619
>sola fide is perfectly logical
It isn't, you aren't saved just by knowing Christ, you must act like Christ, be Christ-like, to know that you can still sin and must repent.
>"Fuck Paul, fuck scripture, fuck St. Augustine."
Augustine is Catholic doctrine famalam.
>Let's worship icons
You don't worship a fucking icon, it's called revere.
>citation needed
Israel being a state.
>How about I focus on some Mexican woman's belief that fulfilling God's will is to endlessly reproduce?
Then I'll tell you that it's the Mexicans belief.
>>1102626
>American protestants are mostly baptists and reformed, not Lutherans
Proofs?
>>1102643
Are you a Muslim? Because only people who act like Muslims endorse shit like that.
>>1102629
I try not to be judgmental of statements or motivation of statements. But you are an absolute edge lord
>>1102547
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html
>>1092888
>>1092906
>>1092937
>>1092975
>>1093063
>>1093097
>>1093138
http://www.protestanterrors.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd66KXIbAjc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL2Hyve-kwg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_4RFoknrwc
>>1102648
If you didn't live in the shittiest country of Europe (Poland) you'd look religious statistics yourself.
Reminder boys.
>>1102660
I don't live in Poland. I live in America, no I'm not a spic.
I just wanted to have a fucking discussion on the Catholic Church selling indulgences.
>>1102682
It was acceptable during the time, money was needed for repair to make the Basilica great, something else for it too, etc etc etc.
>this triggers the papist
>>1102695
>being a Muslim is okay
>>1102700
>>1102648
>Ephesians 2:8
>St. Augustine's writings and beliefs much more readily conform to Reformed Protestant theology than post-Counterreformation Catholicism.
>Because it's called something different it is different!
You bow to it, you invoke Saints in prayer. But it's not worship just because you call it "reverence"? If I were to be in public "naked", and I inform the police officer that I am "nude" not naked, do you think I will not be arrested?
>The Mexicans' belief does not have to line up with Church doctrine, but the Protestants should.
>>1102657
>>But you are an absolute edge lord
How so? I like violent computer games and various sorts of pornography more then I like religious art. The only thing that is "edgy" about that is my willingness to admit it.
>>1102660
> He thinks Poland is the shittiest country in Europe
>>1102658
Works done without faith are purely for selfish temporal purposes. Works are a result of faith, but they do not lead to salvation. An atheist, heretic, or pagan doing good deeds is surely not righteous just pro-social, for what is his motivation if not to be as Christ?
>>1102744
Help those around him?
>>1102744
Please.
>And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 10:22
>For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
Matthew 12:37
>And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
Matthew 19:17
>He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Romans 2:6-8
>For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Romans 2:13
>For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Hebrews 6:4-6
>>1102727
That argument makes no sense, you conceded that Mexicans can believe something, something that happens to be non-existent in Roman Catholic doctrine. Yet the fact that Mexicans are "people" a vague term allows them this right, that Protestants do not have?
>>1102648
>Proofs?
Less than 5% of Americans are Lutheran. If you can't look that up in 5 seconds you're truly a lost case.
>>1102744
>>1102761
>For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:20-22
Read the passages in >>1102658 again. I could go on and on.
You are Biblically illiterate.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd66KXIbAjc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL2Hyve-kwg
>>1102766
Okay, let me reword it.
One is a tribe of people, a fucking ethnic group. The other is a religion. It's like Arabs and Muslims.
>>1102769
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NRSV)
>8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 4:6-7
>6 So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Romans 3:27-28
>27 Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.
>>1102769
>Conflating works as a result of faith with acceptance of a life of self-centered hedonism and rejection of works.
Is this why your church had to label Luther a heretic instead of actually debating with him?
>>1102834
Why should anyone listen to a heretic?
>>1102834
>Conflating works as a result of faith with acceptance of a life of self-centered hedonism and rejection of works.
But that's what Catholics actually think, they are that retarded. No idea how you can spin "God has blessed you with his grace, which results in faith, which results in works" into "YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT :DDD", but Catholics are apparently capable of performing such mental gymnastics.
>>1102845
>YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT :DDD
But that's wrong. You can't do whatever you want.
>>1102863
>>1102881
How is pointing out basic facts and laws strawman?
>>1102863
>Catholic reading comprehension
>>1102820
Faith without works is dead.
>>1102900
Faith without works is not faith, yep.
>>1102906
okay so let's say someone after a lifetime of being an asshole accepts Jesus on his deathbed. does this man not actually have faith and is still doomed to hell?
>>1102926
Depends.
>>1102926
Do you understand grace? We as humans do not know who is saved, to say whether or not another we ourselves are saved and another is not is vanity and judgement.
>>1102926
You can't consciously accept faith, you have to be blessed by grace, which is irresistible. It's not your choice.
>>1102945
but this is pretty black and white. according to you faith without works is no faith. he has no works. therefore he has no faith
>>1102955
alright Calvin
>>1102952
as always fall back on "it's a mystery"
>>1102968
What has he done? Was it mortal or venial sins that he committed?
>>1102974
both
>>1102984
Then he's damned to hell.
>>1102987
even though he's seen the error of his ways and asked God for forgiveness?
>>1102586
>Marxist being used correctly for the first time in 4chan's history
Amazing.
>>1102992
Yeah, his body has sin.
>>1103009
so then God is not merciful nor has Jesus paid the price of sin
I don't see how Catholics can put so much faith in the Church.
It's obviously prone to corruption. It was at least originally made with God in everyone's hearts but clearly being man-made makes it susceptible to man's follies.
The mental gymnastics used to justify thIs shit is Creationist-tier.
No one has bothered to answer the OP's question. I'll do it.
The Catholic Church sold, and indeed continues to offer, indulgences BECAUSE IT CAN. Because it has full power to do so, and that power was granted to it by Christ himself.
"I shall give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven."
That is the Church's great power, given to it by Christ: the power to forgive sins. Moreover, Christ was not specific, but instead affords the Church great discretion in how she may go about binding and loosing.
Indulgences are the Church exercising the power of the keys. They are people paying a fee and receiving time off from penance in Purgatory. They are completely in their rights to do this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with indulgences from a theological perspective. Luther was right to call out the bribery and corruption of his time, but he went too far in condemning indulgences themselves. The Church has God's permission to offer them, and whatever other form of forgiveness for sins they see fit.
>>1103028
Because Christ said the Church wouldn't fail. He said it would endure to the end of time. That's pretty powerful.
>Didn't they realize people could get quite pissed from it?
Yeah, kinda, but like every other retarded economic policy since the dawn of complex societies:
"Yeah, this is probably gonna screw us in the long run, but LOOK AT ALL THIS MONEY WE ARE MAKING, DAWG!"
>>1102906
>>1103214
What don't you get? James actually supports sola fide. Works are a product of true faith, not something separate.
>>1103259
But that's entirely what the Church teaches. The whole point of "justification by works" is that works are a manifestation of genuine faith.
This is yet another instance where Martin Luther was actually pretty stupid and misunderstood things. It's like if Larry The Cable Guy had decided he was going to invent his own brand of physics.
>>1103294
Luther was a wreck desu.
>>1102522
>live in Protestant country
The dour eye of his holiness will have to travel far. Meanwhile I'll have all this condom-less sex.
>>1103344
>some europeans abandon the faith
>protestant countries
>today those countries are the most cucked
justice feels good, man
>>1103294
But Luther didn't throw James out.
>>1103027
>so then God is not merciful nor has Jesus paid the price of sin
No, he did. By having the people in Hell come to Heaven. The price of sin is for back then and the fact that you can be forgiven of said sin.
The first clear attitude to emerge on the relation between Scripture, tradition and the church was the coincidence view: that the teaching of the church, Scripture and tradition coincide. Apostolic tradition is authoritative but does not differ in content from the Scriptures. The teaching of the church is likewise authoritative but is only the proclamation of the apostolic message found in Scripture and tradition. The classical embodiment of the coincidence view is found in the writings of Irenaeus and Tertullian.
These both reject the Gnostic claims to a secret tradition supplementing Scripture. Apostolic tradition does not add to Scripture but is evidence of how it is correctly to be interpreted. This tradition is found in those churches which were founded by the apostles, who taught men whose successors teach today. These apostolic churches agree as to the content of the Christian message, in marked contrast to the variations among the heretics. It is important to note that it is the church which is the custodian of Scripture and tradition and which has the authentic apostolic message. There was no question of appealing to Scripture or tradition against the church. This is partly because the apostolic tradition was found in the church but not just for this reason: the Holy Spirit preserves the church from error and leads her into the truth. The real concern of Irenaeus and Tertullian was not with the relation between Scripture and tradition but with the identity of ecclesiastical with apostolic teaching. Any exposition of their teaching on Scripture and tradition which fails to show this is to that extent defective. (A.N.S. Lane, “Scripture, Tradition and Church: An Historical Survey”, Vox Evangelica, Volume IX – 1975, pp. 39, 40
Protestants explain
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjgyfzjrcnMAhUMCsAKHSFACm4QFggmMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FNew_Perspective_on_Paul&usg=AFQjCNEDN9D_dLGUxtx6z4rfuVv3DAeJYg
By contrast, many recent studies of the Greek word pistis have concluded that its primary and most common meaning was faithfulness, meaning firm commitment in an interpersonal relationship.[14][15][16][17] As such, the word could be almost synonymous with "obedience" when the people in the relationship held different status levels (e.g. a slave being faithful to his master). Far from being equivalent to "lack of human effort", the word seems to imply and require human effort. The interpretation of Paul's writings that we need to "faithfully" obey God's commands is quite different from one which sees him saying that we need to have "faith" that he will do everything for us. This is also argued to explain why James was adamant that "faith without works is dead" and that "a man is saved by works, and not by faith alone", while also saying that to merely believe places one on the same level as the demons (see James 2). The "new" perspective argues that James was concerned with those who were trying to reduce faith to an intellectual subscription without any intent to follow God or Jesus, and that Paul always intended "faith" to mean a full submission to God.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjhrcKFrsnMAhUGD8AKHYGEAF8QFggdMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F185285%2FWhy_Luther_is_not_Quite_Protestant_The_Logic_of_Faith_in_a_Sacramental_Promise&usg=AFQjCNEyW3XfXB9qm3vtd3-V573bCFVxcA
Which Sola Fide?
>>1103422
Luther threw free will out. The fact that James said that entails the agency of the audience rather than them being robots
>>1103557
>These both reject the Gnostic claims to a secret tradition supplementing Scripture. Apostolic tradition does not add to Scripture but is evidence of how it is correctly to be interpreted.
wat. that's the same fucking thing
It is time
>>1103606
>>1103608
>>1103609
>>1103613
>>1103615
>>1103616
>>1103029
Peter never even set foot in Rome,Roman catholic church was created by constantine, not Jesus
>>1103617
I'm really confused. don't these people have faith if they are doing good works for people thinking that God wants them to do them? or are they getting punished purely because, even though they had faith, they believed works to be important to salvation and are simply being punished because they held a doctrine that was slightly wrong in Chick's mind?
>>1103593
If any the statement is saying that Tradition is the Church's interpretation of Scripture or at the very least some mechanism that guides one in reading it.
That's no Sola Scriptura. In fact a key condition for this is NO contradictory and variation of how the Christian message is to be interpreted. Oops, we see this very thing in Protestants!
>>1103656
I'm not a protestant. you used word play to discount the gnostic interpretation while holding up your tradition's interpretation. there are plenty of examples of where the Church's "interpretation" is literally adding to the text. for example the trinitarian stance didn't exist until the 3rd century yet I'm sure you have verses you will say allude to it without out right saying it. yet you can't get the trinitarian stance purely from the text itself
>>1103617
I'm pretty sure Jack Chick is burning in hell right now.
>>1103714
I'm pretty sure he's still alive
>>1103688
That was supposed to debunk one of Protestantism's core doctrines, Sola Scriptura.
>>1103732
I know, that doesn't stop me from being able to critique your argument from a different angle
>>1103724
Nah. He died and his body is possessed by a demon to write those shitty tracks to trick Christians into going to hell.
>>1103759
Does anyone actually follow what he says?
>>1103751
All your argument states is that Gnostics have their own tradition and the Christians have their own too.
Both sides use tradition and nobody into Sola Scriptura.
>>1103776
yeah? I wasn't arguing for Sola Scriptura. I was commenting on how you validated your tradition for what is correct
>>1103639
It's always the latter.
>>1103768
/pol/ Christians.
>>1103803
>implying most of /pol/ actually reads the bible or any of the arguments but are "cultural christian" who want to larp right next to the pagan cuckolds
Don't play ball if you don't know what's going on senpai.
>>1103806
Hell, I wouldn't even go that far. I would say that most /pol/ Christians are just looking for an excuse to condemn strangers as degenerates and look for reasons to hate DA JOOOOS.
>>1103814
>Not knowing what goes on /pol/
Half of the protestants don't read the bible.
>>1103565
That would make sense, since "emunah" (Hebrew for "faith") in the Biblical context actually is a variation of "ne'emanut" or "faithfulness".
>>1103637
God created the Roman Catholic Church at Pentecost, after establishing the clergy at the Last Supper.
>>1103861
wew lad
>>1102333
yes christians are jews.
>>1103931
Not according to Christians and Jews.
Jews don't want to consider Christians as Jews.
And neither do Christians consider themselves to the be inheritors of the Jews.
>>1103776
How do we know when "the tradition" is from God, or is Gods will, and not from someone else?
>>1103984
Because if God didn't want the Catholic church to last for a 1000 years he would have destroyed it.
You already have to pay to not go to hell, its not a big leap of faith to pay for other people's salvation.
Its just a scam bro.
>>1103360
And good ole Catholic France is keeping the cuckery at bay?
Lets face it, everywhere is cucked.
>>1104051
you can use the same argument for any other branch of christianity or any other religion for that matter
>>1103040
> He said it wouldn't fail
But it has
>>1103324
Luther removed no books from the Bible, Calvin and friends did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible
>>1104502
Luther tried hard to get James removed, and even today, it's at the end.
>>1104506
Luther may have been critical of James early on, but he softened up on it at the end of his life. At any rate, James is still in the Lutheran Bible, the Apocrypha is as well, what's the problem? So what if Luther had a wrong opinion on something, we don't have to accept everything he said as true.
>>1104360
>France
>Catholic
wew lad, the average person is atheist/agnostic
>>1102282
They had the power they guard the keys they open the doors
Now its the jews
>>1103984
Apostolic Succession and consistency.
Protestants lack both.
