How realistic is the Kingdom/Society of Westeros from Games of Thrones? It is often said that Westeros is a realistic representation of middle age
we don't really know much about the politics of that fantasy setting to make a judgement
there are variously powerful nobles and a king, which is, well, which was a thing
>>1086857
It's basically the Victorian view of the middle ages taken to the extreme. A grain of reality, but heavily distorted.
>>1086857
Some of the societies don't seem too realistic. More so in Essos though, like the Dothraki.
>>1086857
It definitely is not realistic, even taking into the account the influence of all supernatural factors.
For me the most cringeworthy part is the whole Deanerys' arc. Her anti-slavery revolution is something absurd. Nowhere in history before the Modern Age Europe did anyone think about abolishing slavery or serfdom. There's absolutely no evidence that figures like Spartacus thought about abolishing slavery. If anything, they cared about their own freedom and placing themselves at the top of the ladder.
>>1086909
Slavers' Bay revisionist fuck off.
>>1086909
>Her anti-slavery revolution is something absurd. Nowhere in history before the Modern Age Europe did anyone think about abolishing slavery
>Translation: I interpret Anti-Slavery as Marxist bullshit and I am being triggered
Imperial China pretty much abolished slave trade due to the amount of surplus labor lying around.
>>1086909
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
>>1086909
>Nowhere in history before the Modern Age Europe did anyone think about abolishing slavery or serfdom.
errr anon
>>1086947
>moving the goalposts
What do you think are our equivalents of the Westeros religions?
Faith of the Seven - Catholicism/Orthodoxy
R'hllor - Zoroastrianism
Many-Faced God - Hinduism?
Others - Pagans
>>1086947
To add, also nowhere before the Napoleonic Wars and Gunboat Diplomacy, slavery or serfdom were abolished by an external intervention. If anything, it happened due to internal factors, usually because the whole institution was already anachronistic.
>>1086909
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline#Early_timeline
>>1086947
>Be Muslim Merchant with Slaves.
>Can beat slaves
>Can rape slaves
>Slaves can't do anything about it.
>Be Tenant Farmers in Imperial China
>Be beaten
>Be abused
>This is bullshit.
>Complain to Magistrate.
>Landowner suddenly in hot shit.
>>1086961
>Only europe graciously freed da isleybs out of the kindness of their hearts!
>No one else did!
>>1086971
>>Complain to Magistrate.
On paper, yes. In reality, the magistrate would be the landowner's pal or, even better, his cousin and peasants would be in hot shit instead.
>>1086979
Reading ability 0/10
>be a white god
>abolish slavery
>third worlders go back to it a short while later
at least we tried
is it just me or are the boltons way too edgelordy for a medieval clan
>>1086984
>the magistrate would be the landowner's pal or, even better, his cousin and peasants
The magistrate is often from another province.
>>1087000
Every house there is pretty edgelord.
>>1087011
>The magistrate is often from another province.
And he would certainly go lengths to become the landowners' pal, for his own good.
Imperial China was far from the beaurocratic centralistic beast it's often assumed. It was completely dependent on the landed gentry's support to stay afloat.
>>1087018
>landed gentry's
No such thing. The Feudal Aristocracy fucking died shortly after the Three Kingdoms period
Landowners were usually just merchants, and more encomendiero than feudal duke or some shit.
They'd have to contend with the powers of military officers and the bureaucrat-upper class.
Anyway the point remains: there were premodern societies have abolished slavery.
The books are a bit better, but they're not strictly accurate... But it's a fantasy novel, it's not supposed to be strictly accurate.
The book has some discussion on precedents/the right of lords (the wanton execution of a couple Lords by King Aerys), the duties of lords (e.g. Tywin sends The Mountain raiding in the Riverlands as "bandits" before the war even begins, Edmure [acting Lord] wants to invade the Westerlands but his father overrules him and sends the surviving peasants to the King to secure Royal support).
There's a lot of shit added to it to pad out the history but it's not the worst.
>>1087030
>No such thing.
John K. Fairbank writes otherwise. In fact, according to him, the whole Imperial structure held together with the aid of gentry. Each dynasty lasted as long as the gentry supported it.
>>1087030
>Anyway the point remains: there were premodern societies have abolished slavery.
But this does not contradict what I wrote. Read it. Again.
>>1087030
rich merchants, bureaucrats and large land owners all made up one general class, since people tended to invest their fortunes into land
>>1086857
If anything, A Song of Ice and Fire nicely depicts a feudal kingdom with houses forming much of the political organization of the realm.
Other fantasies treat medieval style kingdoms as meme nation-states with clearly defined borders and national flags and everyone having a sense of belonging to said kingdom. Meannwhile in ASOIF there's shitloads of regionalism.
>>1086957
The 7 Roman Paganism
R'hllor Arianism
Many Faced Nizari assassins
>>1087056
This. The dunk and egg stories do a good job of showing the division between people that were even in the same kingdom.
>>1086857
Nah. It operates on the idea of the Middle Ages someone with a wide but pretty much diletante knowledge of the era might have, so it doesn't really resemble the actual workings of a medieval society. The elements are all there, like there's lords, armours, peasants, and some stuff directly inspired by real history, but that's where it ends. Once you start looking into actual workings of the society, it becomes clear that it's just a themepark version of it.
So for instance you have a continent the size of South America, inhabited by like 30 million people that has only two major cities. Or the Mongol-lookalike being a major threat while lacking basically everything the real Mongols had, aside from horses and bows.
GRRM's poorly written rapefic has little to do with real Medieval history or societies.
>>1087078
care to elaborate?
>>1086857
It's a mixed bag of medieval, renaissance and modern stuff.
Aside from the supernatural there are a few things that bother me.
Mostly the a linear technology used by various people living in close proximity. One entire land is outfitted in plate armor while the other only has mail or CoP, one land uses 8th century viking longships while the other uses 16th century galleys or 15th century carracks. etc etc.
Also: Why are the houses not intermarried to a high fucking degree?
>>1087110
>Also: Why are the houses not intermarried to a high fucking degree?
There's quite a bit of cousin-marrying in the books (Tywin Lannister was married to his own cousin)
>>1087089
>The Mongol-look alike is mostly just a plot device.
We're not discussing the narrative value of various plot elements, but their historical believability. And the Dothraki are entirely unbelievable as a culture that thrives and threatens a large part of the continent, rather than being just hillbillies in some backwater.
>>1087056
It's way to neat though, in real life quite a bunch of people might hold allegiance to like four different guys and their realms were scattered across the realm rather than being magically in one place.
>>1086909
>not being realistic
>cringeworthy
I've always had difficulty with this. Say a novelist or production co. or whatever wants to make a realistic and well-researched piece of fantasy/science fiction that would impress guys like you, but at the same time have the pleb audiences (the bigger target dem, and therefore more money to be had) still be enganged and entertained and never bored.
Is there a work of fiction in existence that you think balances these competing urges, if not ASOI&F?
>>1087115
I mean Stark-Lannister or Tyrell-Baratheon marriages. Or appanages being created for siblings of the king. If one of the 7 houses manages to produce only daughters and marries said daughter to the leader of another house you essentially got two of those regions i.e. Reach and Stormlands now joined together.
>>1087120
Not really. Even the 7 main great lords have subdivisions between them. The whole Bolton-Stark Butthurt is evident of this.
>>1087132
There was some marriages like that - the Martells in Dorne tried marrying their heirs to the Lannisters in the Westerlands, Renly Baratheon (Stormlands) married Marg Tyrell.
Hell, the Tully (Riverlands) were married into both the Vale and the North (there's also a couple Tully married into the Lannisters, I think).
There are quite a few political marriages tbf, the show just does a really shitty job of portraying it.
>>1087144
How come none of the great houses suffer from lack of male heir? In Medieval Europe it happened quite a lot.
I am not sure how long that seven houses thing has been around but if it has been around for more than 200 years it's almost a given at least one would have merged with another due to inheritances.
>>1087158
>How come none of the great houses suffer from lack of male heir? In Medieval Europe it happened quite a lot.
Plot armour, probably, and there was always a cousin or an uncle who would inherit instead.
There were some instances of having only females with houses dying off (Orys Baratheon married the only daughter of some Stormking, they've been Baratheons ever since).
>>1087163
>and there was always a cousin or an uncle who would inherit instead
They tried that in France once...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War
Sometimes the claim could not be inherited by say a sister of the last king but it could be passed along to her husband, not that cousins and uncles accepted this of course. A reason for war as always.
>>1087158
>I am not sure how long that seven houses thing has been around.
About 10,000 years. Brandon Stark built the Wall 8,000 years ago and there's been an unbroken line of descendants from him. Also, technology has not progressed in that time.
>the shitty worldbuilding of George RR fucking Martin
>>1087191
Holy fuck.
8000.
No way he's descendant from him though, his heirs have been cucked at least ten times during those 8000 years.
The book plays with ideas from different eras.
The feudal system, dynastic ties and loyalties are partly realistic. The intrigue part is a bit romanticized and is more common to the courts of later era absolutist rulers when the role of aristocrats had diminished.
The hedonistic and openly sexual and vulgar part might be partly true, open homosexuality less likely so, at least during the middle ages. If looking back at the secular music of the middle ages, then it was quite "simplistic" and mostly about knights (like Roland or Cid), dancing, love and human virtues. The "body related" themes were uncommon before Rabelais and his Gargantua. So culture wise Westeros is a mixture of middle-ages, renaissance and perhaps even a few modern ideas (like those of nation, class or state).
There is one important but missing parts: cities, merchants and handcraft guilds. Some cities in middle ages had special rights, their own independent councils, laws and even armies. Rich merchants could have had a lot of influence and control some important trade routes etc.
Religion-wise it seems a bit too tolerant. The Old Gods is a probable hint to paganism which coexisted in some forms with the official Christian churches. Still, it never came to openly abandoning Christianity - this could lead to severe persecutions. A more realistic Westeros would end up in bloody religious wars - after all, a large part of European history is influenced by religious wars. On the other hand, the rising importance of Church of the Seven and their autonomy, pious knights etc seem realistic to some extent.
Linguistically the continent(!) of Westeros should be more diverse. For instance it took a few centuries to form the modern French from all the different regional dialects and languages. A unified and standardized language is a thing of the modern age (17th century and onward).
>>1087191
>Also, technology has not progressed in that time.
Nah, there's references to iron and bronze age transitions. The Wall was built in the stone age.
Literally a Victorian wet dream about the Middle Ages
>>1087191
I always thought the 8000 years thing was more of a way of expressing, "Long ago" than a literal timeframe.
>>1087224
He doesn't give a fuck about any numbers. When he saw the Wall for the first during the production of the TV show, he asked angrily the producers why they made it so tall. When they replied he'd written in the books that it was 700 feet tall, he just went "oh" and claimed he'd never realized how tall it would be in real life.
>>1086857
>It is often said that Westeros is a realistic representation of middle age
I don't know about that. It's common knowledge George RR Martin based his series on the War of the Roses, despite the whole setting being Europe at 90 degree angle.
The English war of the roses is the tale end of the middle-ages though the sderies imagery is certainly medieval fantasy.
Just like real life Westeros. Especially the dragons.
>>1086857
It's not, and it's not supposed to be. It's a mostly realistic depiction of how history in a fantasy world would unfold, as in: people have humane motivations and failings, societies work in a somewhat realistic manner, geopolitics and economy is taken into account, unlike in most fantasy stories.
But it's only inspired by medieval society and history, not a direct copy of it.
Also, Westeros' history in a long term is completely unplausable. It covers ten thousand years, yet there is basically no technological progress, and even societal structures stay pretty much the same (feudal monarchies).
>>1087319
How did the Lancasters even lose that war?
>>1087360
By being led by an utter incompetent and his corrupt lickspittles.
>>1086909
Showfag detected. In the books, that's the point of that whole story arc: she takes over three cities, puts the slaves in charge in all of them. in one city, the masters regain power in a few months, in another city, the slaves can't set up a stable government, one coup follows another, civil war breaks out and most of the city starves to death. eventually, masters from other cities re-enslave the survivors. The third city is also on the verge of a civil war, the only reason it doesn't fall into complete chaos is because her entire army is stationed there.
>>1086857
Seemed more Renaissance age than middle age
I'm guessing the Targaryian reign was the "middle ages" of that world
>>1087360
>How did the Lancasters even lose that war?
The king died in a pitched battle he didn't even have to engage in.
>mfw /his/ has better GoT discussion than /tv/
>>1087454
>Lancastrians
>King died in battle
Lol wut?
>>1087533
Everywhere has better everything than /tv/
>>1087533
Every board has better discussion about anything than /tv/
It's remarkable given that /b/, /v/, /a/ and /pol/ all exist but /tv/ really is the worst board of all and it's not even close
>>1087534
I was referring to Edward III of York, since they actually lost the war.
>>1087533
I was on /sp/ during the height of the shitposting and /tv/ is worse
At least we're funny and original
/tv/ just forces memes like the redditors they are
>>1086909
What the fuck. Slavery was illegal in Scandinavia by the 14th century and serfdom never existed.
>>1087568
>I was referring to Edward III of York, since they actually lost the war.
2nd "war"*
>>1087000
Eh, to a point.
There's no way in hell that Ramsey would've been able to get away with half the shit he's pulled, at least in the show.
>>1087571
I do have a soft spot for baneposting but in general everything out of /tv/ is utter shit
>>1087568
>Edward III
>died in battle
>in the Wars of the Roses
Again, lol wut?
>>1087609
Fuck... Richard*
That one was just dumb.
>>1087609
He faked his own death after Crecy and had a doppelganger play a mentally challenged version of himself, in real life he was actually a vampire.
>>1087632
He wasn't a Lancastrian though.
>>1086909
>Deanerys' arc.
Essos isn't Europe though. Its an analogy of the Middle-East and Asia. I thought the faux-mongols and the brown skinned people made that clear.
>>1086955
You don't understand what that means. The Chinese did not abolish slavery for moral reasons.
>>1087396
This is pretty much what's happening in the show as well
>>1087667
Do they even have those?
>>1087110
> Why are the houses not intermarried to a high fucking degree?
They are, but genetics doesnt work the same way in GoT that it does in real life
>>1087667
Dany's abolition got her an army and the fanatic support of the lower classes of an entire region of the world
>>1087213
>There is one important but missing parts: cities, merchants and handcraft guilds.
This is the most unrealist part. Westeros only having five cities, and then Essos being ultra-urbanized is just shitty geography.
>>1087726
Her opposition to it was moral, she probably wouldnt have done anything about it if she didnt gain from it
>>1087359
>Also, Westeros' history in a long term is completely unplausable. It covers ten thousand years, yet there is basically no technological progress, and even societal structures stay pretty much the same (feudal monarchies).
You must remember that the history of Westeros as presented in the books is the history as recorded by the maesters.
They see the past carrying the same technology and the same societal structures, but unless Bran warps into the weirwood net and see the First Men in plate armour and having kings and lords, there is no reason to believe that this is any different from people in our own Middle Ages giving contemporary clothing and architectural styles to their biblical and classical painting.
>>1087725
>and handcraft guilds
What sort of handcraft guilds were prominent? Like looms?
>>1087213
I was wondering, where did merchants come from in High Medieval society? (900-1300) Like were they peasants who got cut a break to travel the world for profit? Were they nobles? Solely Jews? Did nobles or cities patronize them or were they independent?
>>1087751
If her motivations were more strategic, she would have continued marching West with her giant freed slave army. Instead she's sitting around in some desert shithole trying to nation build because her motivations are not strategic at all. Her entire campaign is based on 'muh feels'.
>>1087774
She's sitting in Meereen because she has no particular attachment to westeros and wants to prove herself capable of governance. And she cares about the people
>>1087763
Usually from non-inheriting nobles or successful member of the middle class. There has always been a merchant class in societies
>>1087762
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livery_company#List_of_companies_in_order_of_precedence
>>1087789
Her entire life's goal has been to retake her birthright in Westeros, it's the entire reason she went so far East in the first place. Your second sentence is spot on though and it's basically what I've been saying the whole time. She's not motivated by strategic self-interest, she's motivated by her morals and ethics. That's why she abolished slavery, because she cares about the people and she sees slavery as grossly criminal towards the slaves. This isn't something that ever really happened on any large scale in our real history. The Chinese example that I was originally responding too was not driven by moral or ethical reasons, but by strategic and economic reasons.
>>1087213
>There is one important but missing parts: cities, merchants and handcraft guilds. Some cities in middle ages had special rights, their own independent councils, laws and even armies. Rich merchants could have had a lot of influence and control some important trade routes etc.
This. Fantasy writers have no concept of economics and it always bugs me. At the very least, the Free Cities could've formed something like the Hanseatic League to safeguard commerce or even the Lombard League for mutual defense.
Take the Westerlands and its gold mines. You can't have an economy solely sustained on mining precious metals. The Kingdom of Hungary was Europe's primary source of gold and it didn't always benefit since Western merchants would bring in manufactured goods while Hungary merely produced cattle, wine, and gold. Do the Lannisters mint currency for all of Westeros or is that solely the crown's privilege? Does the crown maintain a ban on exporting gold and silver so that they can carefully recycle their currency via taxes back into the market so that lords, merchants, and smallfolk can use it for domestic consumption, invest in profitable ventures, and then remit it back to the government?
>Linguistically the continent(!) of Westeros should be more diverse. For instance it took a few centuries to form the modern French from all the different regional dialects and languages. A unified and standardized language is a thing of the modern age (17th century and onward).
This especially.
The North should speak the Old Tongue like the Wildlings do since it was the language of the First Men. Dorne's First Men and Andal tongues should be heavily salted with Rhonyish since they're a completely alien culture to the First Men and Andals. The Stormlands should have a different dialect of the Common Tongue compared to the Vale or the Reach or the Westerlands.
>>1086909
The moment she tries, it fails almost instantly. Now had the abolition been completely succesful with no downsides, now that would have been "unhistoric" and not authentic.
>>1087849
Who protects that Great Bank that Stannis took a loan out to pay for his mercenaries?
If it was a kingdom, then there is the question of why they'd allow so much money to go to a usurper for Joffery and then Tommen's throne.
>>1087922
The bank is in a free city in Essos that I can't remember the name of that's basically filled with freed-slave crypto-Jews who lend money to everyone. They have the big not-Colossus of Rhodes.
>>1087922
>Who protects that Great Bank that Stannis took a loan out to pay for his mercenaries?
Braavos, and it's not the city-state that protects it, it's that the bank has so much money they'll just hire mercenaries to ruin anyone who doesn't pay them back - and they'll make sure the successor pays them back.
>>1087922
The Iron Bank has ties with the Faceless Men, the premier group of assassins in that universe...which begs the question why aren't these guys doing more of a role in the geopolitics? Even the Assassin Cult in Alamut played a major role in Near Eastern diplomacy.
Andy if anyone does try to default, they'll bankroll the debtors' enemies so that their loans will be paid off.
>>1088036
Maybe the Faceless Men do have a huge role in geopolitics, but nobody knows about it because they're face changing magicians?
>>1087191
Yes, thsi is the element I've hated the most in the series.
They've been in the middle ages for like 10 thousnd years.
>>1088092
I considered that, but what exactly have they changed? The only thing I considered was the Doom of Valyria because it's awfully suspicious that Braavos announced itself to the outside world after that cataclysmic event. Probably was responsible for Hardhome's destruction too as weapons testing for what they would do the Valyrian Peninsula.
>>1088129
The time periods are meaningless and probably much shorter, and technology has changed hover that time
>>1088132
I'd imagine they're more involved in the politics of the Free Cities than in Westeros, and we don't really get to see all of the intricacies of the Free City politics.
>>1086857
Not really
>you can literally murder a king and take his place
>as a woman
>dude lmao it's ok I paid the guards who were watching
Dornish law seems weird.
>>1088226
They rhoynar come to westeros under a queen anyway, so I think its safe to say they have different standards
>>1088226
That didn't happen in the books, it was a piece of show-series retardation (it's not like they haven't fucked other plots up before).
>>1086984
>magistrate would be the landowner's pal or, even better, his cousin
do you even legism faggot?
>>1088036
>>1088092
>>1088132
I was thinking that the Bank does have ties with the Faceless Men, but since they're essentially a cult devoted to for lack of a better word "balance/neutrality", the bank can't significantly manipulate geopolitics because the Faceless Men has a sort of code of honor and only lets them kill for specific reasons, such as contract breaking.
>>1088259
That too. They seem very interested in making sure that nobody abuses their power. It'd be interesting to see where the orders fall from though. It could be something along the lines of that movie Wanted, where a weird religious cult of super assassins supposedly gets their orders from some divine source, but it's actually just the guy at the top making things up and tricking everyone for his own gain.
>>1086857
un-
>>1086909
NEWS FLASH: "Game of Thrones" is a work of fantastic fiction, not historical fiction, you mentally impaired fellow.
Besides, you're wrong in your opinion regarding premodern slavery.
>>1086957
>The seven
It's most like catholicism with the multifaceted individual God and the worship diffused into other entities much like saints. Just the two mixed into one.
>Red God
I would say this is actually heavily influenced by Christianity as well, maybe the early church?
>Old Gods
Pagans
>Drowned God
Different pagans
>Many faced God
Random death cult
>>1086857
>how realistic is a kingdom where a dumb bitch has dragons a dude married a witch and an imp made it to his thirties.
Very realistic actually.
>>1088989
Wow how informative...
You really didnt need to post....At all.
Your input has added nothing to this discussion. Time for bed kid
>>1088870
>work of fantastic fiction
That's no excuse.
Shitty world-building crushes suspension of disbelief. It can come across as contrived, even intuitively to lay people, while for people in-the-know it comes across as lazy research.
All of the top selling and/or most memorable books of all time have one thing in common: the author put a shit-load of work into fleshing out the details and making absolutely sure that its a story that anyone can fall into and get lost exploring all the details.
>>1087125
such a book has yet to be written desu senpai
Garbage
>A literal nation of people who utterly refuse to grow crops and live ENTIRELY by piracy allowed to exist
>Steppe barbarians who don't even use archers yet are considered a big threat
>Continent the size of South America ruled by an absolute monarch
>7 kingdoms instead of a clusterfuck of duchies, kingdoms, principalities, free cities, etc
>Shallow as fuck religions
>one language COMPLETLY unchanged for over 2,000 years
>>1087125
>Is there a work of fiction in existence that you think balances these competing urges, if not ASOI&F?
I always thought the movie Red Cliff was a fantastic compromise between the need for historical authenticity with the need for mass appeal. John Woo flat out stated that he was going for balance in that regard
And that theme music though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvGnZye9Fvs
>>1087213
i enjoyed this analysis. gj anon
>>1089144
>>A literal nation of people who utterly refuse to grow crops and live ENTIRELY by piracy allowed to exist
Don't get me started on why Ironborn are retarded as fuck. I hate it when people compare them to Vikings. The Norse were BIG into commerce as well as exploration, piracy, colonization, and conquest.
>>Steppe barbarians who don't even use archers yet are considered a big threat
The Dothraki use composite bows, but they're retarded compared to the Huns, Avars, Khazars, Bulgars, Magyars, Pechenegs, Cumans, Mongols, and other steppe-based nomads. Genghis Khan and his Dogs of War would make mincemeat out of Khal Drogo.
>>Continent the size of South America ruled by an absolute monarch
Well to be fair, the Targaryens DID have dragons to enforce their rule.
>>7 kingdoms instead of a clusterfuck of duchies, kingdoms, principalities, free cities, etc
Yeah this is one of my biggest gripes. I can sorta understand that 7 kingdoms consolidated after centuries upon centuries of warfare. The strongest realms absorbed the other ones, but realistically Westeros should be as fractured as Medieval Europe was.
>>1089119
>That's no excuse.
That's no excuse for what?
>>1088129
They think they've been in the middle ages for like 10 thousand years. It's like baroque paintings of biblical events where St. Matthew's sitting around with a rapier on his belt.
>>1089251
For sloppy writing.
Some people might use the term "historical accuracy" but I agree with you that it doesn't make sense to say that about a make believe world. However, this make believe world still has to pass the modern muster of believability before people will take it seriously, and in this case that means knowing enough about medieval society to talk at length about how a comparative society might function, and how it might be different under the influence of things like magic and dragons.
not that I think ASOO&F is sloppy writing, in fact I think it's one of the best examples in the genre. We wouldn't be talking about it if it wasn't
>>1089306
If you think that people repudiating slavery is an instance of "sloppy writing", you are an idiot.
>>1089326
*sigh* This is why we need IDs.
I wasn't the guy who said that. I'll at least give it to him that it feels a little ham-fisted at times, but I guess that's the idea is that these kind of things can happen in a world where an idealistic woman inherits deadly dragons.
>>1089345
>*sigh* This is why we need IDs.
Or alternatively, that is why you should clarify that you're not the person with whom the poster your're replying to is clearly having a conversation, before you proceed to post as if you were part of the conversation all along.
>>1089144
The Ironborne are suppose to be viking but the most shallow interpretation of them, ignoring Scandinavian trade and agriculture. The fact their people weren't genocided by simply blockading them from mainland food is silly.
Also I'm pretty sure the "wardens" are autonomous and the Kings authority is limited to nominal in most places. That's seems a good parallel to what happened to the Holy Roman Empire.
>>1089355
IDs come with the perk of discouraging people from samefagging and shitposting and it makes my 4chan experience a gentler and less involved one after a long day because it stops this exact kind of shit from interrupting the discussion
>>1087078
... Have you even read the books? There are hundreds of populous cities on each continent.
It's a pretty good representation of how a theoretical universal monarchy might operate.
aka there is constant infighting and scheming which only ceases the moment someone strong enough to bind the lords together appears and these periods are fleeting before the next huge civil war over succession or the kings authority
>>1088129
There's a good in universe explanation for that.
I'm guessing the multi year winters fuck their shit up
>>1088248
I'm feeling like "Have him unprovokedly stabbed!" is now the series sole type of content.
>>1086909
Achaemenids had slavery abolished and that was pre 1000BC get your shit together Breh
Westeros is a layperson's idea of what medieval society is like. He doesn't actually know very much about history.
>>1089145
This
Red Cliff is the shit
>>1087755
The Andal invasion happened 6000+ years before the series' events, and they already had steel weapons, so I guess they were at about the same level technologically as during the war of the 5 kings etc.
In real life, the oldest steel tools are 4000 years old, but steel weapons only became widespread only in the 1st millenia BC. We has steel for about 3000 years and look how much we progressed technologically.
It's fucking pulp meme shit, even disregarding the supernatural.
>le "everyone is either a lord sitting in his castle or a dull shit eating peasant" meme
>edgy grimdark atmosphere
>ravens as a method of communication
>2 languages existing in the entire world
>the eastern continent feels more like a romantic idea of Mesopotamian antiquity than anything medieval
>constant war, sadism, rape, fanaticism, incest, assassinations, unmitigated psychopathy, faggotry, cuckoldry, torture and generally just stupid exploitation porn
>>1086857
>It is often said that Westeros is a realistic representation of middle age
Nobody says that. Hippies know jack about history.
>>1086857
The scale of it makes it a tad unrealistic.
>>1087056
whats the meaning of the upside down shields
>>1090306
The psychopath population was far higher back in they days before security camera so a medieval european landscape having lots of psychos makes a ton of sense as only in recent time have they dropped in numbers.
>>1090361
killed off houses i think?
>>1090385
Psychopaths and those with such leanings are still around, thy just tend to fill somewhat different societal niches.
>>1090401
Yes but what was it that stopped psychos from breeding?
The justice system so only the intelligent psychos are left in Europe while the idiots are extinct, in GoT the justice system is so shitty that idiot psychos can thrive.
>only Confession purges sin
No, what does it is Absolution, you fat fuck.
>>1087125
The Three Kingdoms >>> Game of Thrones.
>>1090393
You got it right.
>>1089144
>>Shallow as fuck religions
Really so bad?
>>1090543
Yes
It is
Christ, where's the philosophical tradition? The folk practices? The sacred language? The heresies and schisms?
>>1089710
Yes, actually they seem to be a pretty productive area. The fact that they keep talking about the "Old Ways" should be prove enough that "Iron Price" is more an mumble ideal which is constantly remember by some religious zealots and warriors wanting to show how hardcore they are than an actual fact.
>>1090560
>The sacred language
?
>>1087191
>>1087206
>>1087222
>>1087224
>>1087228
>>1087262
There's many valid complaints to be raised against the books, but those timelines aren't one of them.
It's explicitly mentioned by Sam Tarly that the timeline makes no sense and that the chronicles were copied and re-written, so that there's references to knights and steel armour in times when those things didn't exist.
And the shift from bronze to steel is explicitly mentioned at other places and some artifacts from the previous era still exist, like Bronze Yohn Royce rune armour.
>>1089552
For Westeros there's Oldtown and King's Landing and that's it. Lannisport, White Harbor etc are said to be a lot smaller.
>>1091798
No just no.
>>1089710
Ironborn are Viking Spartans more or less.
>>1087191
I think that was realistic in that it shows how inaccurate Medieval historiography was.
This is relevant in ASOIAF's geography as well - the further east, the crazier and supernatural places/people allegedly are. Similar to some of the wacky conceptions Europeans had of distant lands up until the later part of the 2nd millennium.
>>1088989
Sleep tight
>>1090317
There's more truth to it than you might think. Of course there are Wuxia elements present, but for that specific time period and conflict, the horseback commander and his personal retainers acted as a spearhead for a drive through the ill-disciplined enemy array, akin to the methods used in northern Europe during the Dark Ages. Once battle had been joined, they tended to perform in a motivational rather than coordinating role by exposing themselves unto danger in the front ranks. These dangerous clashes of arms between individual leaders and their companions provided the basis of the countless epic duels of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Not unlike in the historical novel, success was often determined by the personal courage of commanders and their immediate followers.
That's actually what makes that time period unique, as it was a time in Chinese history of such wealth disparities that individual actions of courtiers affected the fate of nations.
>>1090385
Middle ages didn't have any more psychopaths than any other period. If anything the biggest sadists lived in the 17th and 18th century.
>security cameras are the only reason why we don't torture and rape each other every day
Are you a Brit?
>>1091304
Hebrew, Koine Greek, Arabic, Sanskrit, Sumerian, etc
>>1086885
You mean nomad horse fuckers? Sounds like Mongols to me.
>>1090560
We only really get to look into a few of the major religions in the story, but the ones that are explained have everything you're whining about. I mean, a huge plot point right now is the fighting between the two different interpretations of the Faith of the Seven.
>>1090560
>m-muh 'sacred language'
>what is High Valyrian in the Faith of R'hllor
>>1092634
>Implying so hard
>>1086909
Ahem, the Normans abolished slavery in England upon conquest (or a bit after but still in 11th century)
>>1089145
>>1090230
>>1090317
>>1092327
>be peasant from the Xuchang hinterlands
>prime minister gets a hard-on for cucking the Sun clan
>get conscripted as a spear levy
>sailing down the Chang Jiang in a river boat
>那是不是我 starts playing
>>1089372
>>1086857
>It is often said
it is not
>>1086947
and that's exactly what happens in daenerys's absurdly unrealistic anti-slavery revolution
>>1086857
>Westeros is a realistic representation of middle age
'no'
>>1086857
Have you ever seen those Renaissance paintings of the Classical Greco-Roman world where everyone is dressed like it's 16th century Venice? GoT is basically that for the Middle Ages.
>muh realistic political scheming
Next time you hear someone claim something like this, imagine them insisting to you that Julius Caesar would have worn bright pink pantaloons.
>>1092476
They are a parody and very very simplified version of Mongols
The fuckers don't even dress like Mongols
>>1094621
It is sadly, usually by normies and newspapers
>>1087533
/tv/ is just a billboard for capeshit marketeers to peddle their filth
>>1087960
That actually happens btw. They bankroll Stannis because the "legal" rulers, the lannisters, don't make payments on their giant loan from the bank.
>>1094665
they don't dress at all
>>1087849
>At the very least, the Free Cities could've formed something like the Hanseatic League to safeguard commerce or even the Lombard League for mutual defense.
Myr/Lys/Tyrosh Norvos/Qohor have in the past, the main concern in western Essos seems to be to keep Volantis in check since it's much larger than anyone else.
>>1086857
Honestly, what I find most unrealistic about ASOIF (never really watched GoT, but they're based on the books) isn't the historical era mashups, or the continent spanning empires.
No, what totally kills my suspension of disbelief is how a world in which betrayal is so ubiquitous and consequence free manages to have held onto a government larger than a few hundred people for centuries. Even Machiavelli noted that if you're constantly being a dick to everyone, your neighbors all band together to kill you; and that the best way to get a reputation for honesty is to actually be honest.
The civil wars that are tearing apart westeros should have started a century ago if not earlier by everything Martin writes, and he doesn't really give any indication as to what held the Targaryen empire together once the dragons died out. Unless people magically became bigger dicks in the timeframe of the books as opposed to then, you would have expected things to fall apart roughly 5 months afterwards, not centuries.
>>1097101
I dunno, I'm sure if we got in a time machine and went back and really got to know aristocrats from War of the Roses era England, we'd think they were petty, backstabbing jerks, too.
Hell, I know people in the modern era like that.
>>1089119
He's right you know. I think TSOIAF is pulp crap for teenagers and women but it's still fantasy. It doesn't have to follow what actually happened in the middle ages, since it's not portraying the middle ages.
>>1098756
>I think TSOIAF is pulp crap for teenagers and women
And I think you're a pretentious weasel. I know enough straight, white, Christian, Trump supporting adult men who fucking love those books to know that you're either a stick-in-the-butt snob who hates fun or you're talking out of your ass.
>It doesn't have to follow what actually happened in the middle ages, since it's not portraying the middle ages.
I never said it did. I said if the world is not fleshed out and believable, it won't hold people's attention. People know when they're being fed a line of trite bullshit, and people smart enough to know better (i.e. the people who would care about it enough to be your raving fans) have a hard time suspending their belief for something that they know to be poorly researched bullshit.
>>1094609
> Various counties
Thanks fuck stick, very insightful
>>1086957
In terms of political roles The Seven is like Christianity, R'hollor is like Islam and the various others are forms of paganism (even the monotheistic ones). I don't know about the actual religious equivalents, but to my mind that isn't very important.
>>1087725
Really though, If you completely take away the idea that Westeros is some South American sized continent and more like the size of Germany, the population and urbanisation is actually pretty realistic
The size of Westeros has no implications for the story and It has never officially been stated how large it is, all size estimates are semi-canon so for all intents and purposes and may aswell be any size you want it to be - within reason of course.
The population and urbanisation of Westeros is pretty comparable to that of ~1200's Holy Roman Empire
>>1100161
>R'hollor is like Islam
No its not.
>>1098842
>I know enough straight, white, Christian, Trump supporting adult men
OK? What the hell does that have to do with my post? It's a poorly written book, go look up the passage where Oberyn is fighting Clegane, it's literally on par with deviantard fanfic.
>>1089372
I prefer this one Þbh, the fingers being kerry is pretty accurate
>>1087849
>At the very least, the Free Cities could've formed something like the Hanseatic League to safeguard commerce or even the Lombard League for mutual defense
They did, read the books
>Take the Westerlands and its gold mines. You can't have an economy solely sustained on mining precious metals
IIRC only the lannisters thrive on not just gold, but also trade, the westerlands themselves are incredibly fertile
And I agree with you on the language part, it really is retarded how GRRM didn't think it through
>>1100253
There are fucking spergs on deviantart that could make more original continents than this fat fuck if he just copy pasted Bongland.
>>1100267
Fantasy maps as a rule are very unoriginal
>>1100267
I think it's breddy clever looking at it this way honestly, even if it didn't take months of thought and planning
>the neck is the english channel that has protected Britain from the mainland for centuries of war
>the vale is mountainous and rugged, a mix of wales and munster, famed for its resistance against invaders
>stormlands are connacht/wales
>northumbria as the northlands followed by scotland as north of the wall
making hadrian's wall The Wall is a bit too obvious I think doe
>>1092476
They were inspired by both mongols and plains indians, and speak a language (in the show) based on romani (gypsy language). So yeah.
>>1100272
The main issue is the arrangemenf of the continents since our continents have the most orderly arrangement possible where as most fanstasy continents are clusterfucks where the continents are spaced out like they are giant islands though this makes the world more unique it ruins the genuine aesthetic of the world.
>>1087591
>There's no way in hell that Ramsey would've been able to get away with half the shit he's pulled, at least in the show
But he has twenty good men at his side!
>>1086857
for those of you that haven't read the books, imagine if medieval wars were fought exclusively through magic related bullshit or assassinations
>>1100639
except that that isn't the case in the books at all
>>1100639
Kek, what. There are battles. Even some famous ones
>>1086857
People considers it realistic because it avoids objective black and white morality and having a lot of fantasy/magic elements. If you ask me, that's enough for a popular show/book that is not supposed to be teaching history.
Ironically, the world is becoming more and more fantastic/magic and we will have a white vs black confrontation with the arrival of the ice zombies. But the series have already been introduced as something completely different and nobody is gonna complain as long as there's still some traitorous cunts in the otherwise blatantly correct side.
>>1100798
The white walkers are not evil, their killing of mankind is like a human removing an infestation in his house. Its a morally grey series all around there are no real villains besides the psychopaths.
>>1087056
Feudalism and nobiliary houses are not well represented at all, though. Westeros is formed by meme regions disguised as houses. There's nothing wrong with powerful lords holding a lot of lands, in some cases lands next to each other, but in general terms a real feudal kingdom should be a total clusterfuck. Specially a big one like westeros.
>>1100827
That's not grey morality at all and the white walkers are clear villains. You can't go team Others, once they enter the scene there's not two sides but "our guys" and literally "the others".
>>1100827
My theory is that they had some sort of pact with humans, which was broken, thats why they attack.
I find it really hard that in a grey morality world like that, the others would simply act for the evil
>>1100939
Maybe it's just not so grey? From the start it was pretty easy to see who were the good boys (Stark) and you have to remember that the books were about to be just a trilogy where all the political stuff was gonna be way less important.
>>1100951
Starks are the good guys, but Lannisters are (mostly) not the bad guys.
Also, Rhollo, the great opponent of the others, isn't exactly portrayed as a good guy
>>1086957
>Faith of the Seven - Catholicism/Orthodoxy
Agreed.
>R'hllor - Zoroastrianism
Agreed, partially. Similar worldview. But the part it plays out in the story, at least in the stage of Westeros, is that of a Christian heresy or even Islam.
>Many-Faced God - Hinduism?
Because of the "small gods as aspects of a higher power" thing? Hard to say. The faceless men seem to take it more like a philosophy than a religion.
>Others - Pagans
Of course.
>>1101025
But you have blatantly good guys and blatantly bad guys. GoT is not so grey, it's just that people compare it with Star Wars or LoTR. It's like saying Bernie Sanders is not leftist because Stalin existed.
>>1101089
Actually R'hllor is closer to manicheism and, therefore, catharism (or how Catharism was perceived to be).
>>1101105
By your definition Sauron wasn't evil either and LoTR is the greyest fantasy world ever.
>>1101101
There are hardly any evil people in GoT its just morally grey assholes mostly, you wouldnt call sweet little Arya who murders people evil now would you?
>>1089144
Not really absolute, though some uppity guys thought otherwise.
The 7 "kingdoms" aren't all that cohesive. There are lords beneath each warden, and petty lords and even landed knights beneath those.
>>1101112
Who the hell is Sauron?
>>1101108
I guess that does fit well.
>>1101101
I dont watch GoT, but in ASoIaF people who are classically good or bad are few and far inbetween
>>1101105
They don't make any attempts to communicate with humans, simply killing all in cold blood.
Thats pretty evil in my book
>>1089699
Vlad was considered a psychopath and turned over by his own people to their biggest enemy for that. And some of his deeds might be over dramaticized.
You will have a hard time building a legacy on such behaviour... the Freys are portrayed right in that context.
>>1101246
Its ok anon I know you are a retard who cant think outside of a goof and evil view of reality or human thinking.
Why would you talk to an insect you plan to kill?
>>1101591
wtf why are you so rude man?
cant you discuss normally, without insulting others people?
>>1087110
>>1087132
3 days late but it's mentioned that the High Lords usually marry their own bannermen. Eddard Stark's dad was apparently unique because he was planning several marriages between Great Houses
(i.e Brandon Stark to marry Catelyn Tully, Eddard was to be fostered by Jon Arryn, Lyanna was to marry Robert Baratheon)
Old fucker had some grand schemes.
>>1100239
>OK? What the hell does that have to do with my post?
You said only teenagers and women read ASOI&F but you know damn well that's not true.
>It's a poorly written book,
Says who? Some committee of fancy assholes? Because these committees of fancy assholes sure didn't think so:
A Game of Thrones (1996) – Locus Award winner, World Fantasy Award and Nebula Award nominee, 1997
A Clash of Kings (1998) – Locus Award winner, Nebula Award nominee, 1999
A Storm of Swords (2000) – Locus Award winner, Hugo Award and Nebula Awards nominee, 2001
A Feast for Crows (2005) – Hugo, Locus, and British Fantasy Awards nominee, 2006
A Dance with Dragons (2011) – Locus Award winner, Hugo Award and World Fantasy Award nominee, 2012
The publishing company raking in all the sales sure doesn't think so.
>, go look up the passage where Oberyn is fighting Clegane, it's literally on par with deviantard fanfic.
I've read some truly excellent fiction on deviant art. We live in a society where it's extraordinarily difficult for talent to make money doing this kind of thing so a lot of people who are very good writers never break out into the professional market. You have a better chance of being elected to congress than you do making the New York Times Bestseller list.
Good writing is out there if you're willing to keep an open mind and not be a pretentious ass about it.
>>1100272
Not even fucking trying...
>Kingdoms of Ind
>Nippon
>Araby
ffs
>>1101711
To be fair, that's Warhammer fantasy, which was intentionally made to be fucking cheesy.
>>1086909
>Winter lasts a varying number of years.
>The dead walk the Earth.
>Fucking Dragons.
...and we get to "cringeworthy" over a single blonde on an abolitionist crusade, despite the fact we've seen various rulers attempt to abolish slavery within their kingdoms, or even promise to free the slaves of a nation if they'll rebel against their masters, repeatedly throughout ancient history, as the various wikipedia links attest.
...On the other hand, the fact that said sexy blonde, who was raised an aristocrat, has taken this abolitionist movement to heart, rather than simply part of her world conquering strategy, it is rather out of character.
But freeing slaves, in and of itself, is a par for the course tactic, historically. Sometimes as a strategy, sometimes out of revolt, sometimes out of sheer economics, and, once in a great while, out of pity.
>>1100272
>>1101711
Warhammer Fantasy is not high-fantasy. This is well known and established, which is why the word "lore" doesn't exist in Warhammer jargon, and the word "fluff" is used instead. Because that's what it is, fluff. It's meant to pad out and give some context to a series of table top war game. The fluff is secondary.
Also Araby, Ind, Nippon and Cathay are the secondaries of the secondary fluff. They don't have lore, army books and got wiped out in ___.
>>1101711
Don't forget Cathay, the ancient term for the lands of China. And the "badlands."
Like seriously medieval fantasy is already derivative as fuck you can jazz up the lands and the lore past elves and "Bretonnia." The fucking genre is called fantasy.
>>1101762
>On the other hand, the fact that said sexy blonde, who was raised an aristocrat
The show might give you these vibes because of le strong woman character but this is really not the case in ASOIAF. Daenarys is a weak and scared little girl whose only value is her dragons and Targaryen loyalists. She isn't nearly as empowered in the books as she is in the show.
She is young and naive.
>>1101770
>past
>passed
Fuck me
>>1100272
I always wondered what history would be like if the gods were clearly fucking with you, rather than men simply making the claim to their advantage.
>>1087213
>>1087849
You two are very correct but it's not like Martin didn't think of it. Qarth is pretty fleshed out as it has a metric dickload of groups in it.
The Tourmaline Brotherhood, the Thirteen and the Ancient Guild of Spicers are all trade guilds/groups that are in the city, although they don't play a big part in the story
>>1087849
>Fantasy writers have no concept of economics and it always bugs me.
Well then have I got the anime for you...
>>1087591
In the books Ramsay is Roose's wild dog. Roose is in charge. And northern houses are already conspiring against him, and NO ONE wants Ramsay in charge if Roose goes loose. Really, Winterfell in ADWD is a timebomb with various nobles ready to kill each other.
>>1101764
>"fluff"
I don't mind fluff v lore if the lore doesn't mean anything and is just a background setting for bullshit.
>>1101791
Maoyu Mao Yusha gets second place to Spice and Wolf for that kind of shit.
Although it'd piss off >>1086909 no end:
https://vimeo.com/62316766
>>1086857
>It is often said that Westeros is a realistic representation of middle age
It's not. It way too over the top and grimdark. Martin seems to think that life sucked completely back then, which really isn't the case. He confused the dark ages, a very inaccurate name for the early medieval period, which was the following the collapse of rome to the founding of the
>holy
>roman
>empire
By Charlemagne. And even then, the early medieval period wasn't some hellhole, it just didn't have any very large unifying force in Western Europe, and had very little innovation in Western Europe.
So no, not accurate at all. Especially since a huge portion is based off of the war of roses, which was late medieval period.
>>1087056
All that tincture and metal rule breakage is hurting me.
>>1087056
I wish the noble families and lines of succession were explored alil more. Always reminds me of the HRE-level fracture bullshit France had to dig itself out of in the middle-ages.
>>1087213
>Linguistically the continent(!) of Westeros should be more diverse. For instance it took a few centuries to form the modern French from all the different regional dialects and languages. A unified and standardized language is a thing of the modern age (17th century and onward).
Meh, I dunno - everything seems to be within a seven days ride of everything else - if anything, there should only be one language, save maybe where that water crossing is involved (so two then?). Planet seems awfully small, or the whole story is just really concentrated.
>>1101834
>Planet seems awfully small, or the whole story is just really concentrated.
My guess is the planets very small, unless the books go into detail about travel time. Medieval merchants could travel 30 miles a day if only moving in daylight. Big caravans or military were way slower. But things seem to move at a good speed in the story.
>>1101861
that map is so ugly
>>1101773
This.
>>1086909
>Nowhere in history before the Modern Age Europe did anyone think about abolishing slavery or serfdom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_British_Isles#Before_1066
Do Americans learn nothing about the outside world?
>>1101890
Yeah I don't know. Maybe its cause I'm use to earth continental shores and arrangements, but fantasy worlds look like contrived coasts.
Although speculative Mars map look ok to me.
>>1089144
>A literal nation of people who utterly refuse to grow crops and live ENTIRELY by piracy allowed to exist
Well, that's really only the Greyjoys who abide by the Old Way and shit. IIRC, House Harlaw or House Botley or both are doing pretty well for themselves by farming and trading. Balon is just an old fuck who takes "We Do Not Sow" to heart
The rest is all fair points though, can't fault you there. I just find the Ironborn really interesting is all
>>1101861
This map is actually false. This is the map of the known ASOIAF world
>>1101914
i like this kind of autism
>>1101806
Because the whole country is in a state of a civil war
I am sure life during the 30 years war was pretty grimdark aswell
>>1086909
this, she's like a liberal/feminist whitewashing mary sue. she feminist-ifies a nation of manly horsefuckers.
every enemy wants to sleep with her despite her having taken the big dothraki cock.
also she doesn't give a fuck about murdering her brother.
>>1100253
>The Lands Of Always Winter
wew lad, what a creative genius.
