Tell me about haiti. Why has it always been a miserable shit hole. Was it bad soil? Lack of domesticateable animals? Bad climate? Lack of staple crops?
Please tell me I'd like to know.
>>1072279
Believe it or not, Haiti (known as saint domingue) was the single richest colony of the 18ty century. It was the single largest producer of sugar in the world, the third largest producer of coffee , and a significant indigo and cotton producer. The colonial trade with the colony also was responsible for 1/8 of the jobs in france.
>>1072279
>>1072279
I've gone to vacation twice in Punta Kana in the Dominican Republic. Which is a beautiful and opulent styled resort town. But the regular cities are also pretty shitty.
Haiti isn't really any worse then the Dominican Republic.
>>1072297
In short, the Haitian revolution fucked shit up. But I recommend you go on bookzz.org and download coloniali and science by James McClellan. The first 50-100 pages are a fantastic overview of what the colony used to be
>>1072279
Look up the revolution.
>>1072322
GDP and hdi disagrees with you
Haitians do their best to get into Dominican republic and have for a very long time
You can't breed decent human beings out of slaves, period. Putting slaves in charge of anything is a recipe for disaster.
>>1072279
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmJLh3QCNgM
>>1072344
Wut?
>>1072374
tldr: Dinduism.
>>1072385
But there are other carrib states doing well and Haiti problems were not solely from the revolution and you are an.idiot to think so while ignoring the other more impactful shit.
"Always been."
No.
The revolution fucked shit up, but much more importantly the MASSIVE FUCKING DEBT the French forced on them removed the possibility of them becoming a successful state.
If it wasn't for France being petty, they'd be the best Caribbean nation.
>>1072411
They deserved all that they got.
>>1072411
Then there was the American takeover, papa and baby doc, various forced removals of presidents from outside forces, earthquake, company interference, forced dependency.
ehhhhh no they could have been ok but the economy was nowhere near as big as it was before the revolution. The truth of the matter was that for producing sugar and coffee slavery was the best answer at that time. Once most of the infrastructure was damaged during the revolution and chattel slavery was abolished there was no way to regain their previous place. That being said it was the French induced debt and the fact that no one wanted to recognize a slave republic in Caribbean that turned it into the poorest country. This lack of recognition also hurt trade even more. Also the government of Haiti was never effective unless it was despotic. Finally, the Haitians deforested their land to the point of catastrophe.
>>1072430
Seriously:
http://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-haiti-minimum-wage-the-nation-2011-6?IR=T
White people.
>>1072411
I mean, yeah, France was being petty of you want to use simple terms. But let's not pretend murdering every single white person on the island was a good idea
All the answers here will try to tiptoe around the answer but it's really as simple as that they're black.
>>1072297
That didn't mean haitians had good lives. Probably only the french ones.
>>1072411
I'm really fucking tired of this meme.
>big mean ole foreign power forced it on them!!
>they're just big meanies!
>poor little guys!
>abloo bloo bloo
You can only get shit forced on you becuse you have no political clout, your leaders are shitty, and your planning, preparation and determination all blowed. Haiti's leaders let it be in a position to be exploited, Haiti's people were too apathetic to get or produce better leaders, Haiti fucked up because its people fucked up and a country that wasn't led by incompetent buffoons exploited the one that was.
It's the people of Haiti's fault bad things happened to Haiti.
>>1072538
I'm not saying that at all. Slaves were such a cheap commodity that it cost less to import slaves than keep them alive
>>1072411
WE WAS RICH N SHIT
Then whitey forced debnts on us despite the fact we DINDU NUFFIN
>>1072552
literally blame the victim: the post
>>1072569
They let themselves be victims and put themselves in a situation to get exploited.
>>1072580
>They let themselves be victims
They were literally kidnapped into slavery...
>>1072580
>Women let themselves be victims and put themselves in a situation to get raped.
This is how you sound.
>>1072411
>kill all french citizens
>be upset when the french don't like it
por que
>>1072590
Shut up you shitposting /pol/tard. That has nothing to do with anything, stop trying to derail the thread.
>>1072586
And then they weren't slaves anymore and were free to choose what to do.
>>1072557
Cont. The average life span of a slave on saint domingue was a little over 4 years. The work was absolutely brutal and relentless. During harvesting season the sugar boilers needed to be running day and night to process sugar cane into a refined product. But the French planters were just as keen on improving their plantations. They invested tremendously in improvements. Infrastructure was improved and huge irrigation works were constructed to put previously arid soils under cultivation. One central valley of haiti is in fact a desert and it through irrigation it was made into a fertile area.
Tldr the soil or crops were not bad at all. French planters were very attentive to innovation and the colony was seen as model of agricultural production before the revolution
>>1072598
>And then they weren't slaves anymore
Which is why everyone shunned them, because they broke out of slavery. So what exactly are they supposed to do? I mean, I'm not saying they did a good job or anything (certainly they didn't, not knowing how to do anything but menial labor), but they were in an impossible position to begin with.
>>1072595
i also think thats how it sounds though
maybe..
maybe YOU'RE the shitposter??
>>1072411
>>1072443
>giving coherent explanations
Get off my board
>>1072606
I though they killed whitey after they stopped being slaves
>>1072613
You're trying to steer this into sexual politics and rape cases, no, you're the shitposter.
Niggers.
>>1072606
>So what exactly are they supposed to do?
Why does it always come down to this? Does my inability to more adequately navigate 19th century international politics in your mind somehow justify their decisions as competent or reasonable?
The facts stand, they made their decisions and they were unprepared for global politics and they paid the price.
>>1072631
He was pointing out that your argument is retarded by using reductio ad absurdum, one of the most basic forms of argument. Rather than trying to argue back, you threw a hissy fit and derailed the argument yourself by accusing the other guy of derailing.
The Revolution, followed by just a series of downfalls directly related to it.
First was after the revolution, Haiti was absolutely fearful that the French would come back for retribution, so they exhausted national resources building a network of fortifications that fell to disuse after no invasion happened.
During which, the entire Imperial world refused to trade or recognize haiti as they feared it would give legitimacy to a slave revolt state. The haitians tried to offset this by occupying the neighboring Dominican Republic for 20 years before they were forced back.
The French eventually did return, and offered to recognize Haiti in exchange for paying a massive debt as reimbursement for the lost colonial revenue. Haiti was in no position to refuse as French ships of the line were in Port-au-Prince ready to open fire, so they accepted.
After that it was just one uneducated leader, military coup, and economic disaster after another. Haiti never had the political clout to bargain for much of anything due to their inept leaders and corrupt military governments.
The Duvailer family did have some influence on the world stage, levering the US for favors in exchange for helping to stamp out Communists in the Caribbean, but after that there was nothing.
Poor resource management ruined Haiti's economy, the stigma of producing sugar tied to slavery meant no one was going back to the sugar fields to drive the economy, so Haiti plummeted to a status beyond saving. The Earthquake was just icing on the cake to knock it to official Failed State status.
>>1072645
>He
Yeah sure.
He was using a shit analogy to bring rape politics into this when it has nothing to do with anything. The purpose was to try and equate me with some misogynists because leftist have to turn every argument into a moral one y equating anyone that disagrees with them as evil.
And now YOU'RE derailing the thread by droning on about how equating nation building to a rape case is perfectly reasonable and tolerable all because you don't like what I'm saying. Fuck off back to /pol/ or whatever shit place you come from.
Only successful slave revolt in history.
Makes it pretty unique.
But yeah, after they fought off Napoleon's grab at them, they were fucked.
USA wouldn't recognize them because the South didn't want to recognize slaves. Europe said no to colonies revolting.
Kind of hard to have an export driven economy with no exports.
Also shit leaders and French debt and then US occupation in the 20th century...
They also still had race wars between half blacks and all blacks.
>>1072660
>The purpose was to try and equate me with some misogynists because leftist have to turn every argument into a moral one y equating anyone that disagrees with them as evil.
The purpose was to show that your argument made no sense.
But this is exactly what you're doing yourself by calling anyone who disagrees with you a leftist or /pol/.
>>1072658
>the entire Imperial world refused to trade or recognize haiti
Why not trade with the Latin American nations once they freed themselves? They had no love for slavery.
About 20 hours, or a 600 page books worth of shit on Haiti.
http://www.revolutionspodcast.com/
Not that I think 4chan will listen. "niggers lol" is a way easier explanation for plebs.
>>1072679
>The purpose was to show that your argument made no sense.
No, the purpose was to derail the thread with nonsense about rape because he's an idiot that equates nation building to rape.
>you're doing yourself by calling anyone who disagrees with you a leftist or /pol/.
I'm calling him a leftist because of his tactics.
>>1072683
>They had no love for slavery
U wot.
>>1072694
Fucker you know what I god damn mean.
>>1072699
No I don't.
>>1072702
With a noticeable exception of Brazil there was a general tendency in Latin America to not import slaves from Africa or otherwise engage in the wholesale slave trade with Africa so a bunch of rebellious slaves wouldn't have been an enormous issue with the majority of them.
Is that satisfactory you teen cunt? Can you go look for an ego boost somewhere else? Maybe find some other inadequately specified post you can nitpick so you can feel like you've challenged yourself with something today?
I'm trying to find out if there was a reason they didn't trade with nations like Mexico that reached full independence in 1821 and was anti-slavery. That's fucking all. But you want to show off on some pointless bullshit to feel special today.
Srsly, get a fucking life anon.
Shit.
>>1072722
The guy was talking about the period before they gained French recognition in 1825 and slavery wasn't abolished in most of Latin America until after that, so I didn't really get what you meant by them 'having no love fro slavery'.
>Is that satisfactory you teen cunt? Can you go look for an ego boost somewhere else? Maybe find some other inadequately specified post you can nitpick so you can feel like you've challenged yourself with something today?
>I'm trying to find out if there was a reason they didn't trade with nations like Mexico that reached full independence in 1821 and was anti-slavery. That's fucking all. But you want to show off on some pointless bullshit to feel special today.
>Srsly, get a fucking life anon.
>Shit.
Had a bad day, anon?
>>1072753
>The guy was talking about the period before they gained French recognition in 1825 and slavery wasn't abolished in most of Latin America until after that, so I didn't really get what you meant by them 'having no love fro slavery'.
Thank you.
>Had a bad day, anon?
Yes, actually, I don't feel like arguing about pointless shit and just want my query resolved.
>>1072687
listening to it now
>>1072357
whats with all the appeals to emotion? literally just bait and nothing more
>>1072526
They never killed all whites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ4dA6kZsEs
perfectly explained
>>1072800
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre
>>1072279
It never had a chance. From being ruled by military dictators to literal monarchs, to living on a small island whose only valuable resources were cash crops, to 98% of the people being exslaves who just wanted to own their own homesteads, Haitian society was never destined for anything but failure.
>>1072808
Some were left alone you know.
Not saying it didn't happen
>>1072811
>It never had a chance.
If it hadn't agreed to the French demands for recognition it could have restructured its economy, been more politically stable, and wouldn't have operated under crushing debt during its formative years.
That president was just a stupid fucking idiot.
>>1072394
But if that were true the /pol/ universal "niggers r dum lol" theory of history wouldn't be correct
>having denbts turns your land into salt
>>1072815
>During February and March, Dessalines traveled among the cities of Haiti to assure himself that his orders were carried out. Despite his orders, the massacres were often not carried out until he actually visited the cities himself.[12]
>The course of the massacre showed an almost identical pattern in every city he visited. Before his arrival, there were only a few killings, despite his orders.[18] When Dessalines arrived, he first spoke about the atrocities committed by former white authorities, such as Rochambeau and Leclerc, after which he demanded that his orders about mass killings of the area's white population should be put in effect. Reportedly, he ordered also the unwilling to take part in the killings, especially men of mixed race, so that the blame should not be placed solely on the black population.[19][20] Mass killings then took place on the streets and on places outside the cities. In parallel to the killings, plundering and rape also occurred.[20]
>Women and children were generally killed last. White women were "often raped or pushed into forced marriages under threat of death".[20]
>Dessalines did not specifically mention that the white women should be killed, and the soldiers were reportedly somewhat hesitant to do so. In the end, however, they were also put to death, though normally at a later stage of the massacre than the adult males.[18] The argument for killing the women was that whites would not truly be eradicated if the white women were spared to give birth to new Frenchmen.[21]
>>1072820
Read guns germs and steel haiti has poor soil and no domesticateable animals
>>1072827
Are you trying to be funny?
>>1072593
That doesn't change the fact that it's true: Haiti's current state has more to do with historical and environmental circumstance than some farcical lack of "will". That's a plain observable fact.
>>1072660
I'm really fucking tired of this meme.
>big mean ole anon forced it on them!!
>they're just big meanies!
>poor little guys!
>abloo bloo bloo
You can only get shit forced on you becuse you have no political clout, your brain is shitty, and your planning, preparation and determination all blowed.
It's your fault and your fault alone you got accused of being a rape apologist.
>>1072832
I smiled a bit
>>1072817
From everything I read about it, the people of post revolution Haiti were mostly concerned with just farming wheat to feed themselves, which was worth fuck all it revenue to the government, who needed all the money the can scrounge up just to pay for basic buerocracy, and this is assuming it ran perfectly and had no corruption problems at all.
I don't see how such a small nation could have thrived in such an environment.
>>1072580
That's not really how basic human interaction works if you're not a retarded sociopath.
>>1072322
>Punta Cana
How did those prostitutes treat you?
>>1072411
>Haitans genocide the whites
>The evil french are just being petty
Kill yourself
mad/10
>>1072567
That is not even close to what the other poster was saying. You're trying to discredit a valid observation by regurgitating cookie-cutter rightist propaganda. We all know it.
>>1072844
This isn't basic human interaction this is international relations. Everyone is trying to exploit everyone else as far as politics deems able, those that don't are the ones getting exploited.
>>1072552
Crimes don't stop being crimes because of the circumstance of the victim. Your greentext memes will not persuade anyone otherwise.
>>1072850
>racism is rightwing
of all the dumb shit I hear on /his/
>>1072841
That's not what I'm hearing on the podcast, they seemed to have two sources of revenue early on, initially they stuck to the plantation system and then in the south of the country they were taxing based on trade in the ports and the US seems to have lifted their embargo in 1810 and the two had begun trading.
>>1072855
Crimes do however do stop being crimes when there's no law against it.
>>1072841
Not to mention being near a super power that can pretty mych project it's influence to dominate you jsut liek every other carrib/central American state.
This is exemplified when America invaded Haiti because it was scared of it losing influence on the nation to other European investors.
>>1072857
Leftists think racism can only be applied to blacks since blacks and other minorities can't be racist
>>1072820
It does.
Agriculture, like all important factors of a civilization, is directly correlated with capital. A bad agricultural system will prevent the production of food and harm the food economy. Poor economic conditions will result in less resources for farming (such as those needed to prevent desertification or poor topsoil).
>>1072855
What "crime" exactly do you think was committed?
>>1072827
That argument is perfectly valid when applied to the regions that are actually discussed in that book. No one in this thread has tried to use them here. You're attempting to satirize an argument which doesn't exist. Everything you wrote was pointless.
>>1072357
>Dr. William L. Pierce
>>1072838
>blowed
>>1072878
>That argument is perfectly valid when applied to the regions that are actually discussed in that book
No not really.
>>1072851
Because niggers lost any sense of it really meaning anything useful ages ago.
>>1072851
Some are, some aren't. Look at this nigger, he ain't that dumb (smarter than you at least).
>>1072895
>literally half white
>even then he's just a shitty pop scientist
>>1072845
Prostitutes? I never left the resort and was barely 16 at the time in 2005 when I went there. Though there were a lot of slutty European girls also there, I nearly got raped by a German guy.
>>1072871
That has literally nothing to do with the argument. You're just reaching for a subject where you can most easily make fun of leftists.
You aren't even responding to the post you're replying to, for fuck's sake. Try harder.
>>1072895
He's the black version of Bill Nye.
>>1072896
Just repeating the same key phrases and inserting "literally" like the teenager you obviously are isn't going to win you any arguments, pol.
>>1072914
But the statement is true.
>>1072912
I'm not sure if that's a compliment or an insult.
>>1072920
Both.
>>1072898
You ever heard of the silly Nigger/Black dichotomy some people actually adhere to others or even themselves??
>>1072919
But the statement is
a) False (please don't make me bring up Mali, Songhay , Ghana, Ethiopia or any of the other "black" states that were objectively successful for long periods)
b) Inapplicable (nations are nuanced constructs whose fates are determined by so many different and often circumstantial factors that genetic or "cultural" issues would be totally irrelevant to success)
c) Nonsensical (the term black or "nigger" is erroneous as it is being applied to a huge array of ethnic backgrounds which, by your own reasoning, should each have their own predilections based on race)
>>1072919
Really? It's literally true? Who's conducting this suicide watch? Who's shift is it in 8 hours?
>>1072279
>Bad soil
Well it looks like the lower half of the country is a sand bar, so there's that.
>>1072279
Honestly, listen to the recent series on Revolutions regarding the Haitian Revolution which does a nice overview of the revolution itself and then a quick overview of Haitian history afterwards.
The long and short of it is that the revolution and bad leadership did a lot of damage to Haiti. Then the debts they had to pay for France to recognize their independence fucked up the economy. Then it's just a succession of awful leaders, coups and horrible tyrants. So outside factors did play a role but poor internal leadership is even more to blame.
>>1072279
Like Liberia, any nation which has ex-slaves as leaders is destined to become the world's rectum.
>>1072807
It's probably my favorite of the series he's done so far. It's surprisingly unbiased as well, or at least not going into full on shrieking "EVIL WHITES~" like you'd expect out of, say, a John Green or something.
>>1072411
>kill almost the entire white population including little kids
>steal a colonial posession and nationalize the wealth of other people
>WHAT DO YOU MEAN THEY DON'T LIKE US???
lol
>>1072534
No, it's as simple as that they're slaves. You can't turn shit into gold and you can't turn a slave into a nation builder.
>>1072322
You're objectively wrong.
A drive through the cane fields shows how many Haitians work for a dollar a day shucking cane in the DR.
>>1072322
GDP per capita:
>Dominican republic
14,984
>Haiti
1,750
>>1073283
Agreed.
The Talleyrand quote about the mass executions of the whites by Dessalines sums up the whole mess after the LeClerc Expedition pretty well- "It was worse than a tragedy, it was a mistake."
>>1073703
Pretty sure that's Joseph Fouche's quote about the execution of the Duke of Enghien
>>1073720
Talleyrand said it, but in a different context (you were right, Duke of Enghien's execution). My bad.
>>1072838
Best new /his/ copypasta.
I'm guessing it was the one-two punch of having no functioning nation-wide social institutions and the price of Haiti's primary exports dropping hard.
The blacks would've fared better regardless of the revolutionary chaos if not for those things. Instead they went from being simple laborers to having an entire country they didn't know how to run and they were up to the ass in debt.
ITT: people being creative to disguise the blatantly obvious fact that the former jewel of the Carribean has been ruined by sheer incompetence of the locals.
wh*tes ruined everything as usual
The slaves killing off all of the educated people during the revolution didn't help them much either
>>1072411
>Implaying that negros can rule themselfs
>Implaying the they wouldnt run the nation into the ground a la Zimbawue in 40 years
>Implying that XIX Cuba wasnt better than that shithole could ever dream off.
>>1072902
Fuck germans, rapey as fuck
>>1072595
>Pulling the pol card when you have been totally assblasted
Pathetic.
>>1072895
You could have put a real academic,and not a meme scientist
reminder that the haitian revolutions was justified
>>1072658
got what they deserved desu familia
lack of white people
>>1072323
>the Haitian revolution fucked shit up
Because slave labour is so awesome, right?
>>1075024
No one said slavery was especially good, simply that the people in charge afterwards don't know anything
>>1072306
Haitians cut down nearly every tree in the country to make charcoal for cooking purposes.
Instead of having electricity or importing cheap propane from the USA.
Africans in Africa are slowly doing the same thing. Only China's efforts to industrialize the savage continent might save some of the wilderness.
>>1072538
>That didn't mean haitians had good lives. Probably only the french ones.
Actually no. White overseers in the Caribbean had a mortality rate that was shit, not as bad as slaves though. The plantation owners would only visit their fields once every few years, they'd either go to France or live in a major island city.
>>1075042
>No one said slavery was especially good,
Well you said it was better, at least. Which it certainly wasn't. Haiti was and is a shithole but it was better than being a slave.
>>1075780
Where?
>>1076038
Where what?
>>1075780
No, Haiti would be much better if it still had slavery
>>1074581
Except he couldn't because he would need to find a black one.
>>1077029
So, like, haiti under Dessalines?
>>1072322
Wew lad weak b8.
>>1072687
holy FUCK that is a lot of podcasts on france
>>1072411
As a Dominican, just no.
France's pettiness is not the reason why they've turned a pristine landscape into a deforestated wasteland. Culture goes a long way, and even without the debt, they wouldn't be much better.
The fact that a bunch of disparate slave peoples cannot form a functioning society goes a long way.
NIGGERS.
THERE I SAID IT.
>>1075780
Yes, the economic conditions and prospects were better before.
>>1072323
no...the french fucked shit up by enforcing a blockade on newly free haiti and then extorting billions from haiti as reparations for slavery(as in for slave owners lost slaves ), a debt that haiti paid into the 1900s....so the french sucked haiti dry leaving it pretty crippled
haiti was a colony where slaves came to outnumber the french, where slaves took freedom for their selves and were then punished and rebuked for daring to be free
the french imported and brutalized thousands and thousands....and when a slave rebelion sucesfully takes the island the things get vilent for the white french are we suposed to be more sad for them then for the black haitians weo were then isolated as a nation and put so deep in debt by their former slave masters that they would never properly emerge from it?
is it terrifying that they killed the french? sure it is but to be fair the french set themselves up for it, it is like jefferson said....slavery is like having a beat by the ears, its a dangerous situation cause you cant hold on forever and when you let go what else can you expect
>>1079552
I personally feel no sympathy for an ethnicity that deems it fit to murder a vast swathe of my own fellow whites and even winds up putting the head of a white infant on the pike of one of their banners.
Fuck the oppressed blacks of haiti, their impoverishment is just desserts for their murder of white men, women and children.
>>1079602
how is it also not the frenches just deserts for enslaving and brutalizing the slaves? did they not deserve it?
>>1079602
seriously...the french enslaved and brutalized thousands and thousands of blacks, how do they not deserve to be butchered? but the blacks deserve impoverishment for being justifiably pissed at their slave masters and overloards
>>1079633
how is it also not the frenches just deserts for enslaving and brutalizing the slaves? did they not deserve it?
No, because the Black population of haiti deserved their enslavement as well simply due to the fact that they were and are incapable of managing their own affairs.
>>1079647
Doesn't matter. I side with the people who look like me and come from a similar culture to mine. African blacks are both alien and barbaric in equal measure. I give them no sympathy and regard for those reasons alone. That they act with savagery against white populations whenever they get the chance is just further cause for my own disdain of them and all their works.
>>1079682
t. /pol/fag
I bet you don't think the holocaust is real either.
>>1079707
Nah, the holocaust happened. Some of the specific events that are associated with it are probably fictional though. There probably wasn't soap made out of human fat for example.
>>1075780
Yea but they had trees and weren't getting sucked into storm drains randomly when they were slaves. At least they had some sugar for their dirt cookies.
>>1079682
The French Haitians deserved their butchering because they were manifestly incapable of managing their own affairs.
>>1079910
along with dying after 4 years of work on the plantation
>>1079952
I should imagine they were living better in them 4 years than they're doing with however long they make it now.
>tfw one of the greatest moments in the history of spirit happens only to regress to a less pure reality
>>1079960
How exactly were they living better then? It's not like any of the profits went to them. Someone was living better in Haiti then but it wasn't the slaves
>>1079976
>less pure
