What /his/'s opinion on Austria-Hungary? What can you tell me about it?
>>1060052
Neglected military and not a nation-state.
That's all I know, I really like the Hapsburgs but idk much in this period of their history except for WWI.
>>1060062
>/his/ opinion
When the board started there were numerous threads on the subject and people were kind of fucking maymaying it like it was 10/10 GOAT-tier. We then agreed it was fucking shit. There some /A-U/tists still lurking tho
>what can you tell me about it
Read A.J.P. Taylor's book on it, it's the best work I know on the subject
>>1060075
>We agreed it was fucking shit
Why? Why was it shit? Looked like it had pretty big lands to me.
>>1060080
Imperial Russia and the Ottomans had "brety big lands :D:D" too
>>1060052
It was better than what happened afterwards.
>>1060104
But it would have been much worse had it not collapsed
>>1060075
As for as I know the Austrians have a good military record, they tend to be overshadowed but they're still pretty good.
Only if the civilian government paid more attention to the military, like Prussia where the army was always first.
>>1060052
the austri part of it good i guess, the bohemian germans and hungarians were shit tier. their foreign policy regarding serbia and internal policy regarding orthodox Christians was the primal cause for WW1 and every shit thing that happened because of it
>>1060052
>Ruling body was literally called k.u.k.
POTTERY
>>1060115
>battle of Craiova
>Prusso-Austrian war
>>1060130
>battle of Craiova
What?
>>1060143
Karansebes*
>>1060250
things_that_never_happened.jpeg
The meme didn't go far enough
>>1060075
It was 10/10 GOAT tier you faggot
>>1060052
Looked like a disgusting tumor growing in europe
>>1062087
Hungary was pretty much a big cancer Tumor in the empire.
>>1060099
Imperial Russia lasted for 400 years. Seems like something was working for it to survive as long as it did.
>>1062079
It was a 0/10 shit tier collapsing in on itself bureaucratic nightmare, and everyone inside it wanted it to fucking end except the Habsburgs themselves, Fuck your meme
>>1062145
Nice try shitaly
>>1062090
Trianon was the chemo
>>1062162
t. Still butthurt Hungarianfag
Build a wall and shut the fuck up
>>1062163
Fuck off s*rb
>>1062177
t. S*rb
>>1062187
OK, I'm S*rb, Italian, Gypsy, whatever the fuck you want. Explain to me how the A-U Empire was 10/10
>>1060052
It was the EU of the 19th century!
>>1062078
>tfw no tripartite monarchy
>>1060052
Austria-Hungary was 10/10
>>1060250
Literal retard spotted.
>>1060111
Yeah, no fascism and communism, the horror.
>>1062090
It's not like we were asking to be annexed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Greater_Austria
Would this have worked /his/
>>1063774
Maybe, it would have been the only way to proceed into the 20th century without the empire falling apart from nationalist minorities. The Hungarians might bitch though considering the amount of power they had in the monarchy, they didn't even want the Croatians to be considered equal because it would mean they lose some legitimacy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trialism_in_Austria-Hungary
Austria-Hungary was the reason Germany got dragged in the World War and had to fight Russia and Italy. The German/A-U alliance was a disaster for Germany because it made A-U problems Germany's problems.
Germany/Prussia should have destroyed the Austrian Empire altogether when it had the chance, let the Habsburgs with a rump little Austria, give Tyrol and Salzburg to Bavaria, Galizia to Russia and turn the other provinces into satellite states with German monarchs.
>>1063866
>1914
>Hey Franz, start a war plz, have a blank cheque
>2016
>Germany dindu nuffin it was Austria all along! :D:D
>>1060052
Hapsburgs are cool, but Austria-Hungary is a shit. Interesting, but shit. On another note, it's kinda sad that Austrians are overshadowed as top turk removers
>>1060052
A shit nation.
The military wasn't anything noteworthy and the only achievement was the stopping of Turks after losing more than half their territory.
Extremely outdated tech and no innovations of their own.
Prosecution of minorities.
Absolutely retarded lack of industrialization because >lol, monarchy.
Oh, and seriously inbred leadership.
All in all a disaster and not much more.
>>1060130
>Prusso-Austrian war
the least people know it was a two front war against Italy at the same time.
>>1063877
I didn't say the Germans were blameless. The leaders was impulsive and incompetent and most people went along with it. Germany was lucky to still exist after everything it did during WWI for a stupid cause that wasn't even theirs in the first place.
>>1064304
>only achievement was the stopping of Turks after losing more than half their territory.
They still stopped them, I wonder what would had the disjointed "holy roman empire" done if the turks reach them.
>Extremely outdated tech and no innovations of their own.
Vienna, later Budapest, Kolozsvar, Krakko, Brasso etc. were all considered center of culture and progression.
>Prosecution of minorities.
Austria-Hungary was considered one of the most liberal places in Europe. They did allow churches and education for minorities, if they reached 20% anywhere.
Yes, there was germanization and magyarization, just like they had similar shit in France or England.
>Absolutely retarded lack of industrialization because >lol, monarchy.
They were late in this, yes, but it did industrialize after 1867, so it did catch up, by 1910 it was considered equal in this regard, Budapest was the industrial center of the Empire like London or Paris.
>Oh, and seriously inbred leadership.
Can't argue with that tho.
>and not much more.
Just look at East-EU today, this Empire was the key to make this place into an equal power to the Westerners. Today we have disjointed micro-nations with barely viable militaries and poverty. None of these countries can survive on their own (maybe only Romania, but they are really eager to disprove me).
>>1064433
And before you just on me with
>muh oppressed nations
it should had became something like the US, the proposed "United States of Austria" could had worked with some refinement and renaming.
>>1064439
It never would have. The reasons are complex and many, are you willing to listen or not?
>>1063877
so much this
>>1064507
Why do you think it would be neccessary there being a civil war. Switzerland is similarly a multi ethnic country; but civil war is not in the realm of possibility.
A-H could easily have become a confederation like switzerland if there were no ww1 and ww2.
>>1064522
No it couldn't have, and the reasons are so many, that it boils down to "nobody but the Habsburgs themselves actually wanted the Empire to stay up"
>>1064522
There are absolutely no similarities between A-U and Switzerland.
>>1064525
>>1064531
My point is simply, that before the war, there was a process of devolution of power to minorities, to ideas of federalization and so on.
And it's far from certain the country had to implode to civil war or something similar without the world war going on. You are judging this now as neccessity with hindsight because of what happened in the balkans.
Civil wars and empire collapsing mostly happened after wars, not just out of the blue.
>>1064439
>muh oppressed nations
In reality, it was just the leadership not giving into nationalist demands. It's not like AH annexed an independent Transylvania and Slovakia etc. These were traditionally part of the Kingdom of Hungary and always had a mixed population, which wasn't a problem before nationalism. So the Habsburgs ruled over a state (decidedly not a nation state) that some people decided that they don't want to be part of. They said no, you will not secede, or will not reform the empire completely to suit your nationalistic ideas.
Really, not too different from how Lincoln and the North reacted to the demands of the Southern states. But Lincoln won, so he is considered a hero, while the AH leadership lost, so they became viewed are evil opressors. Because Yugoslavia, Czecoslovakia and Romania were so much nicer to their German, Hungarian and Bosnian minorities (no).
>>1064558
The decentralization was too little and waaay too late. The Empire has been dead since the 1878 Balkan War. By the time WW1 happened it was a rotten corpse in the middle of Europe.
>>1064569
What a bunch of lying shit and the cringiest analogy I could think of.
>>1064569
Also, they forced minority schools to also teach the majority language. Something every country does today, because of course you would want all citizens to speak the majority language. Little Entent propaganda at that time however interpreted this as OMG, I'M TRIGGERED, THEY ARE ERADICATING OUR CULTURE
>>1064575
What is it with the revisionist faggotry on this board?
>>1064569
Notice the name United States of America, it is country of Americans, now notice that in Austria-Hungary is not only state of Germans and Hungarians
>>1064575
Oh right, because Hungarians sure were the majority in Great Hungary(they were around 45% according to their own census,, probably at around 40% in reality) and so were ze Germans in the rest of the territory. Fuck right off
>>1064570
>>1064569
You're also overstating how unpopular A-H was. That the population was being oppresed. It was far less oppressing than any other mostly ethnically homogeneous nation state.
There was a plebiscite in Carinthia in 1920, whether it should be in yugoslavia or remain in austria. And although it was populated by 70% slovenes, they voted to remain in austria, cause yugoslavia was a chaotic shithole. So there's that. The population didn't feel that oppressed, some nationalist intellectuals did.
>>1064597
wew lad, you could feed a herd of cattle with that strawman
>>1064597
But it did, there were mass protests through whole empire, lower classes of AH were not medieval peasants whatever you might think.
>>1064597
And you think that sentiment was mirrored by the Czechs, Croatians, Hungarians, Ruthenians, Serbs, Romanians, Slovakians or Bosnians you lying sack of shit?
>>1064597
Also bear noticing the fact that although it's a region(and now country) inhabited by Slovenians, called Slovenia, you call it Carinthia. You bias is protruding like an uncircumcised cock at a nude Bar Mitzvah
>>1064610
Just as a curiosity, where are you from?
The minority law created a year after the Ausgleich in 1867 stated that the state must create schools that use teach in minority languages, and stated that it's everyone's right to learn in his own language. Hungarian was not a compolsury subject until the 1880s. Even modern liberals would disagree if a country would try to create a system like this.
Yes, AH leaders denied requests to change the administration in a way that would give minorities autonomy, they wanted to stick to the status quo, which was a mistake. But show me any law in AH that discriminated against people on ethnic grounds, that made minorities second class citizens. That would oppression. What happened was just sticking to the status quo and unwillingness to reform.
>>1064522
> A-H could easily have become a confederation like switzerland if there were no ww1 and ww2.
No it couldn't've. The lead up to WW1 was that of nationalism sweeping across Europe and a decent faction of intellectuals fapping over France's rights. Franz Ferdinand was handing over powers to the various parties before his assassination, ever so slightly dismantling the authority of the crown even if it was just to quell discontent.
Hungary was dead-set on becoming independent, Austria saw everyone else as rabble to be ruled over and the various Slavs couldn't agree on anything.
>>1060052
The k und k was serious business.
>>1060052
>hungary
>not fixing that fucking cross on top of their emblem
How the fuck did you expect your kingdom to survive when your heraldry is leaning like a drunkard you fucking fags?
>>1064631
https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narodni_pokret_1903._godine
english texts on this topic are sparse, you can google translate this, and notice that croats had autonomy and were generally more loyal to monarchy
>>1064649
>>1064636
>Except independence.
Even then the Slavs couldn't agree. You have some Slavs wanting to go annex Serbia, others wanting to leave altogether then others that just wanted autonomy. It was a complete clusterfuck and allowed the rulers to just dismiss them as being unruly and volatile people.
>>1064633
Again, yes there was nationalism; but it wasn't something A-H couldn't handle in peace time. The problem became that during war, the young men didn't feel they were fighting for their own motherland, but for various barons and dukes. Without war, it was a functioning state.
A-H was also almost entirely catholic, culturally the nations that made it up were not completely different. And franz joseph was extremely popular He spoke most of the languages of the empire.
It's far from certain it'd ended in civil war or that it would implode; and it's entirely likely that it would have ended as a federation, like the swiss or something like the british commonwealth.
>>1064670
No it wouldn't have. ANd FJ II was on his deathbed, not having any popular successors. The Empire would have been dismantled long ago had it not been for England's fear Russia would just take over the Balkans and Turkey and Russia's fear France would take over Italy
>>1062078
Fucking Croatians man. Why not have the third part be "yugoslavia" instead of just Croatia, we were part of Austro-Hungary as well.
>>1064680
>3 parts
Oh cool, let's see how the Romanians, Polish, Ruthenians, Czechs, Slovakians and Serbs feel about that
>>1064686
You have no idea how diplomacy in the 19th century worked do you? Also, I like how you didn't address my points, just dismissed them
>>1064687
Franz Ferdinand was supposedly trying to reform A-H into federal state where every nation would have its own federal state, but I doubt it would change much in the long term. A-H was pretty much dead no matter what, giving nations political power in form of states would probably just make the death easier for all the nations that then had trouble defining their national borders.
>>1064689
What points even? Russia was allied with A-H for the longest time until the crimean war. The holy alliance. Then they had the league with three emperors alliance as germany/a-h/russia, almost until the 20th century. The fuck up was world war 1, as i keep saying, and that's also when a-h and germany went full imperialist mode. If they kept peace and the status quo, it'd been fine.
>>1064707
OK, I see I can't convince you no matter what,
>all your arguments are faulty
>or straight lies
>or is just fantasy masturbation
Have fun lad
>>1063774
Romania and Italy existed and so the Transylvanian, Triestian and Trentian state would want to join them. Ukrainians and Poles also had their people in Russia and Germany, they might have lobbied for war with them.
These would be the two issues such idea would have.
Other than that there are also Hungarians who were generally opposed to the idea of turning the dual monarchy into triple, quadro etc. monarchy
>>1064710
>Triestian ... state would want to join them
Nah, Trst je naš! Trieste would join with Carniola and everything would be right with this world.
>>1064719
That still doesn't solve Transylvania, Trento, Ukrainians and Poles having their compatriots abroad...
>>1064728
>slovenian Irredentism
That's borderline Monty Python. What can you be proud of anyway, Zlatko Zahovici, Maribor Branik and fucking salamanders?
>>1064731
NO of things like TIGR - (oe of the) first anti-fascist organisation in the world, OF - (one of the first) armed rebellion during WWII in German occupied lands. The fact we mostly freed ourselves with little to none foreign help in WWII.
And we like to mentally masturbate on thoughts that one day Trst and Koroška will be ours again.
>>1064744
First I'm shitposting.
Second only the centre of Trst was always of Italian majority, the suburbs were always mostly Slovenian. And hey by that account, Koper, Izola, Piran and more would also be Italian, as they also had at time Italian majority in it, just saying.
The Charintian referendum was a bit different and it's hard to say why people decided against Yugoslavia, but the popular, even if it is probably over simplified answer is because of the hate and fear of Serbs.
>>1064649
>leaning like a drunkard you fucking fags?
It represents my nation: no one dares to fix it, because if you accidentally break it, you have to take responsibility for it.
No one wants to be written down in history as the person who BROKE THE HOLY CROWN, so instead we pretend it was always like that.
>>1064601
>Czechs
Until like 1916? Yes.
>Croatians
Same.
>Hungarians
Of fucking course, they were the ones who choose to stay with Austria in 1867.
>Ruthenians,
This is a though one, they were more likely wanted actual recognition as a nation, actually thats why even today they have movements for breaking away from Ukraine.
>Serbs
I give you this one, serbs were mostly greedy fucks.
>Romanians
Same as serbs, yes they wanted to join Romania.
>Slovakians
The what? They barely had any nationality until WW2, they barely fucking cared, originally they were supposed to stay with Hungary, but then panslavism happened, and they spoke slavic so Czechs considered them their people.
>Bosnians
They had freedom if religion, they were happy as fuck. The muslims, I mean, serbs are a different topic.
When will the meme that A-H was on the brink of collapse and rotten and everyone wanted to secede from die?
Yeah it was like that in 1918 or 1917 maybe.
>A-H was undevelopped poor shithole
The first Austrian stock exchange (the Wiener Börse) was opened in 1771 in Vienna, the first stock exchange of the Kingdom of Hungary (the Budapest Stock Exchange) was opened in Budapest in 1864. The central bank (Bank of issue) was founded as Austrian National Bank in 1816. In 1878, it transformed into Austro-Hungarian National Bank with principal offices in both Vienna and Budapest.
The gross national product per capita grew roughly 1.76% per year from 1870 to 1913. That level of growth compared very favorably to that of other European nations such as Britain (1%), France (1.06%), and Germany (1.51%).
However, in a comparison with Germany and Britain, the Austro-Hungarian economy as a whole still lagged considerably, as sustained modernization had begun much later. Like the German Empire, that of Austria-Hungary frequently employed liberal economic policies and practices.
In 1873, the old Hungarian capital Buda and Óbuda (Ancient Buda) were officially merged with the third city, Pest, thus creating the new metropolis of Budapest. Many of the state institutions and the modern administrative system of Hungary were established during this period.
Economic growth centered on Vienna and Budapest, the Austrian lands (areas of modern Austria), the Alpine region and the Bohemian lands. In the later years of the 19th century, rapid economic growth spread to the central Hungarian plain and to the Carpathian lands. As a result, wide disparities of development existed within the empire. In general, the western areas became more developed than the eastern. The Kingdom of Hungary became the world's second largest flour exporter after the United States.[41] The large Hungarian food exports were not limited to neighbouring Germany and Italy: Hungary became the most important foreign food supplier of the large cities and industrial centres of the United Kingdom.
However, by the end of the 19th century, economic differences gradually began to even out as economic growth in the eastern parts of the monarchy consistently surpassed that in the western. The strong agriculture and food industry of the Kingdom of Hungary with the centre of Budapest became predominant within the empire and made up a large proportion of the export to the rest of Europe.
Meanwhile, western areas, concentrated mainly around Prague and Vienna, excelled in various manufacturing industries. This division of labour between the east and west, besides the existing economic and monetary union, led to an even more rapid economic growth throughout Austria-Hungary by the early 20th century.
Austria could preserve its dominance within the empire in the sectors of the first industrial revolution, but Hungary had a better position in the industries of the second industrial revolution, in these modern industrial sectors the Austrian competition could not become overwhelming.
The empire's heavy industry had mostly focused on machine building, especially for the electric power industry, locomotive industry and automotive industry, while in light industry the precision mechanics industry was the most dominant. Through the years leading up to World War I the country became the 4th biggest machine manufacturer in the world.
From 1854 to 1879, private interests conducted almost all rail construction. What would become Cisleithania gained 7,952 km (4,941 mi) of track, and Hungary built 5,839 km (3,628 mi) of track. During this time, many new areas joined the railway system and the existing rail networks gained connections and interconnections. This period marked the beginning of widespread rail transportation in Austria-Hungary, and also the integration of transportation systems in the area. Railways allowed the empire to integrate its economy far more than previously possible, when transportation depended on rivers.
After 1879, the Austrian and the Hungarian governments slowly began to renationalize their rail networks, largely because of the sluggish pace of development during the worldwide depression of the 1870s. Between 1879 and 1900, more than 25,000 km (16,000 mi) of railways were built in Cisleithania and Hungary. Most of this constituted "filling in" of the existing network, although some areas, primarily in the far east, gained rail connections for the first time. The railway reduced transportation costs throughout the empire, opening new markets for products from other lands of the Dual Monarchy. In 1914, of a total of 22,981 km (14,279.73 mi) of railway tracks in Austria, 18,859 km (11,718 mi) (82%) were state owned.
>>1060052
An European Union done better but still not done right.
>>1064946
Was Moldova seriously that shit even before the state split from Romania? Wow. I know they used to be controlled by the russian empire, but still.
It was okay right up until the Hungarian Revolution of 1848. Austrian Empire was alot more stable and later giving the Hungarians preference meant that others would soon follow like the Serbs.
>>1060075
Fuck off, commie. Even Jews admit that Austria-Hungary was great, the best country they ever lived.
When Jews praise a traditionalist, Catholic monarchy, it's because you know you have the real thing.
>>1060052
I'm a huge fan.
>>1063774
I think the Austromarxist of "National personal autonomy" would work better.
Leftists are such hypocrites. Nationalism for them is evil, bigoted and stupid, except when it's useful to help destroy a traditional multi-ethnic empire, then nationalism is righteous and progressive.
>When I attempted to find a simple formula for the period in which I grew up, prior to the First World War I hope that I convey its fulness by calling it the Golden Age of Security. Everything in our almost thousand year-old Austrian monarchy seemed based on per- manency, and the State itself was the chief guarantor of this stability. The rights which it granted to its citizens were duly confirmed by parliament, the freely elected representative of the people) and every duty was exactly prescribed. Our currency, the Austrian crown circulated in bright gold pieces an assurance of its immutability. Everyone knew how much he possessed or what he was entitled to what was permitted and what forbidden. Everything had its norm its definite measure and weight. He who had a fortune could accurately compute his annual interest. An official or an officer for example, could confidently look up in the calendar the year when he would be advanced in rank, or when he would be pensioned. Each family had its fixed budget, and knew how much could be spent for rent and food, for holidays and entertainment; and what is more, invariably a small sum was carefully laid aside for sickness and the doctor's bills, for the unexpected. Whoever owned a house looked upon it as a secure domicile for his children and grandchildren; estates and businesses were handed down from generation to generation. When the babe was still in its cradle, its first mite was put in its little bank, or deposited in the savings bank, as a "reserve” for the future. In this vast empire everything stood firmly and immovably in its appointed place, and at its head was the aged emperor; and were he to die, one knew (or believed) another would come to take his place, and nothing would change in the well-regulated order. No one thought of wars, of revolutions, or revolts. All that was radical, all violence, seemed impossible in an age of reason.
Then they all became commies. Such improvement.
>>1060062
>Hapsburgs after Maria Theresa
LOL
O
L
LORRAINE
O
R
R
A
I
N
E
Federalize it already!
>>1065303
It still is
>>1065484
That was literally the plan before Ferdinand was shot and WWI started
>>1060052
>>1065403
>Austrian Empire was alot more stable and later giving the Hungarians preference meant that others would soon follow like the Serbs.
Comparing Hungarians to Serbs completely ignores the evolution of the Habsburg Empire and the political and power differences between the different ethnic groups
Mainly there was a huge difference between the political nations of Germans, Hungarians and Croats, and basically the rest owing to historical background.
Hungarians were a historical and political national with their own insitutions, law and tradition of being a sovereign kingdom for 500 years, Habsburgs inherited the crown and made a personal union.
Only the Czech and Croats can be compared, but Croats were subordinated under the Kingdom of Hungary, and the Czeh lost their special privileges in the 30 years war and never fought for it again, which is what the two major Hungarian revolts were about.
Serbs were just some random people that happened to migrate to Habsburgs lands after Karlowitz
>>1060052
Shit tier meme empire with disgusting borders and a nasty dynasty.
Only mistake was the French Republic not massacring the Hapsburgs.
Probably the most unfairly memed on state in history. Just look at the garbage being posted ITT
By all accounts it was a great place to live, especially compared to the shit that replaced it. It should never have been dismantled.
