For example, here's one I consider 'interesting': historians and researchers are certain that the original story concerning the Binding of Isaac in the Old Testament actually ended with Abraham killing Isaac as commanded.
According to one source (Terence E Fretheim in The Child in the Bible edited by Marcia J. Bunge, Terence E. Fretheim, Beverly Roberts Gaventa, pg. 20), the entire story of the Binding of Isaac "bears no specific mark of being a polemic against child sacrifice"
Scholars point to verses 20-24 of Genesis (which come right after the Binding of Isaac): the description of a rash of newborns placed right after the main story suggests the existence of some direct cause-effect connection between the two. From the perspective of a sacrificial mentality, these numerous progeny could not have been conceived without the preceding payment. More importantly, the names of the newborns in these passages appear to be code, due to their rarity/implausibility as actual names. Respectively, the names are: Re’umah – "see what"; Tevah – "slaughtering"/"slaughtered"; Gaham – "flame" or "burning"; Tahash -"skin" often used to cover the tabernacle; Ma‘akah – "blown" or "crushed. In other words, when deciphered: "[somebody] had been blown, slaughtered, put on the tabernacle and burned".
The addition of the ram and Isaac's survival are hypothesized to be later additions, possibly from the period around the Babylonian Captivity.
>>1057822
I'm just curious, going along with this theory, where does the supposed nation of Israel come from. The formation "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" is repeated throughout the pentateuch, and from what I understand, that formulation is pretty old.
>>1057822
Why do you find lies interesting?
Isaac had no children prior to the event, and had children afterwards.
>>1057822
>the entire story of the Binding of Isaac "bears no specific mark of being a polemic against child sacrifice"
This is true. However, there are plenty of mentions of child sacrifices to Molech being forbidden.
>>1057850
>>1057882
A hint that Isaac may have indeed been sacrificed is the name for God used in the story. The Biblical text calls the God who instructs Abraham to sacrifice his son “Elohim.” Only when the “angel of God” leaps to Isaac’s rescue does God’s name suddenly change to the four-letter YHWH, a name Jews traditionally do not speak out loud.
Elohim commands the sacrifice; YHWH stops it. But it is Elohim who approves of Abraham for “not withholding your son from me.”
Continuing on, Isaac is never again mentioned in an Elohim storyline. If one were to read the parts of Isaac’s "life" where the Elohim name is used, Isaac disappears completely from the story.
But even the YHWH portions don't particularly give the impression that Isaac lived, since he seems to fade away after the sacrifice, with his life story told in just one chapter, compared to more than a dozen chapters for both Abraham and Jacob. Note also that the parts dedicated to Isaac recount events recycled from Abraham's life (Abraham signs a pact with the king Avimelech, so does Isaac; Abraham passes off his wife, Sarah, as his sister to avoid being killed by Avimelech, and so does Isaac with Rebecca).
>>1057822
>>1058279
This is a cute hypothesis and I'm sure it satisfies the fedoras who are looking for something, anything to show that the Bible is not a special book and that YHWH worship is indistinguishable from other ancient Semitic religions. However from the opening verses of Genesis, the Bible presents a radically different cosmology than the other contemporary near eastern religion. One need only compare the singular Biblical God who creates universe out of nothing simply because He wants to with the panoply of deities found in writings like the Enuma Elis which presents creation as the result of cosmic warfare with the corpse of some god being the material from which the world is made. The Isaac story is another example of the different perspective offered by the Bible from the other belief systems of the period. If God didn't spare Isaac, then the entire point of the story (namely that the God of Abraham is different from the other gods) is lost. Of course this is exactly what proponents of the Isaac death theory want to show; that the God of the bible isn't different from the pagan deities. Yet they can't explain why the Genesis creation narrative is so radically from the other beliefs of the ancient Near East. Also this whole business of Elohim and YHWH being two separate deities is preposterous and merely another example of enemies of the Bible grasping at straws in an attempt to support their pet theories.
>>1058364
>One need only compare the singular Biblical God who creates universe out of nothing
The Hebrew Bible never stated that God created ex nihilo, and the understanding was that he'd shaped the Earth from already extant primordial elements. Also, the Biblical cosmology is in no way "radically different" from the cosmologies of any of the other Semitic religions, and in fact, shares extreme similarities with them all.
In Deuteronomy in the Song of Moses it is mentioned that El Elyon divided the nations according to the number of the sons of Israel. rather nonsensical as this is before the Israelites were a people. in the dead sea scrolls however "sons of Israel" is instead "sons of El", a reference to the Canaanite myth that there were 70 sons of El for the 70 nations. also the passage ends by saying that Israel is YHVH's inheritance. this implies that YHVH was a subservient god to El Elyon, from whom he recieves a single nation as his inheritance from his father
>>1058421
>this implies that YHVH was a subservient god to El Elyon, from whom he recieves a single nation as his inheritance from his father
I remember reading something about this: that is, that Yawheh was originally a subservient deity that had a female goddess as a consort.
>>1058279
>Continuing on, Isaac is never again mentioned in an Elohim storyline.
Except that's wrong. "Elohim" and "Elohai" are the same root, the former is just generic, wheras the latter implies possessiveness.
And "Elohai Yitzchak" is all over the place. The burning bush is probably the most famous example.
>>1058461
yep, Asherah. I can't back up this claim but I think it's interesting so fuck it: apparently the wisdom literature of Proverbs is similar to proverbs of Ishtar. who was synchronized with Asherah to some extent.
>>1058364
>cute
>the fedoras
Spotted your motivations almost instantly.
>>1058486
how does this refute his point? is there some Elohai's used for God in Isaac's life story past childhood?
>>1058505
That's who I was thinking of, Asherah. I remember reading once about Asherah later morphing into the feminine 'shekinah' concept, which Jews hold to be the more 'maternal' aspect of God.
>>1058535
Because the formulation indicates a continuity of ancestry. "I am the God of your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and THAT is why I'm going to free the Israelites from slavery"; a formation like that makes no sense if according to the E source, Isaac is sliced up and isn't the father of Jacob.
Plus, isn't the Yahwest source generally considered to be older than the Elohist?
>>1057822
Given the relitively late date of the bible compared to many of middle eastern tradtions that we know of, it would not be surprising if there was an older version of the story that was altered because latter generations found it morally repulsive . I doubt we will ever no for sure
>>1058554
this doesn't seem to be related to your previous comment though. anyways the Deuteronomist source if I remember correctly uses YHVH normally and is considered one of the later parts of the Torah.
>>1058573
Most of the first half of Exodus is attributed to J, which means that the statement that Isaac drops out of the J storyline bunk; he'd have to have sired Jacob, which precludes his dying in the binding.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that chain of logic, but that is what I meant from the start.
>anyways the Deuteronomist source if I remember correctly uses YHVH normally and is considered one of the later parts of the Torah.
Part of the problem is that all 4 of the "main sources" use YHVH on occasion, although most of them are from J. You usually have to go to secondary hallmarks to winnow it out for certain: For instance, you usually attribute the burning bush to J because of his preoccupation with the link between soil and humanity (Moses must take off his shoes and touch the ground with his skin because he is treading on holy ground), and the face to face diction and bargaining with God,, which you have here, and not the dream/vision game that E and the others usually give.
>>1058597
And I just realized I shot myself in the foot by demonstrating that the burning bush narrative was actually probably J and not E who thinks Isaac was sacrificed. Oops. Let me think about this a bit more, there's a flaw in here but I can't quite put my finger on it.
>>1058554
>Plus, isn't the Yahwest source generally considered to be older than the Elohist?
Traditionally, but realistically there is no clear dating for any of the sources of the Torah and barring absolutely extraordinary discoveries there never will be. I do agree that if there is a trace of a tradition where Isaac is in fact killed, it's only a trace; anything more leaves us with a genealogical conundrum as to the identity of Israel's father. I don't think any of the major sources of the Torah contained such an ending to the story.
More on the original topic of weird ass biblical passages, there's Exodus 4:24-26:
>24. And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
>25. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, "Surely a bloody husband art thou to me."
>26. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
The "him" of the first verse is presumably Moses, but the pronoun-heavy and generally bizarre nature of the passage makes it a bit hard to tell. The Jewish scholar Hyam Maccoby read the passage as saying in somewhat tortured fashion that when Moses, when he met God, tried to kill his own son; in other words the story is about Zipporah substituting circumcision for child sacrifice to YHVH. I recommend his book The Sacred Executioner for anyone who is interested in this sort of whackadoo shit.
>>1058621
>>25. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, "Surely a bloody husband art thou to me."
>>26. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
Actually, it's even weirder than that. I remember being sharply rebuked in a bible studies class for translating it the way you just gave, but וַתַּגַּע isn't really "threw" or "cast", it's root is "touched" or "pushed".
I mean, the former gives this mental image of whatever the hell's going on, Zipporah performs the circumcision and throws the foreskin down as if to say "Look, I did it!", but a closer reading shows she's actually physically touching it to Moses's feet (connection with ground holiness from such?) after performing the circumcision.
You get similar weirdnesses elsewhere in Exodus too. Go check out the episode where Moses kills that Egyptian. His crime gets reported despite nobody seeing it (except maybe the guy who was being beaten/killed?) except not really, because it's just one slave sarcastically mentioning it. And despite the fact that you have a neutral formation "Two men were fighting", Moses rebukes 'the one that was in the wrong'.
The slave's retort is doubly weird, "Who made you a ruler and judge over us?" When the previous narrative is quite clear that Moses grew up in the Pharaoh's palace, can wander around work sites as he wills, and generally seems to be in a position of authority,
What can I say, there's a lot of unclear writing in the Pentateuch.
>>1058621
>anything more leaves us with a genealogical conundrum as to the identity of Israel's father
aren't Jacob and Abraham considered to be originally part of separate traditions? Jacob is usually in more northern locations than Abraham such as when he sets the boundary with his father in law, setting down the future boundary between Israel and Damascus. if this is true and they were later combined into one history in Genesis by a later editer than the genealogical issue really doesn't matter
>>1057822
Its obvious who is shilling this theory, muslims. If Issac died, then Ishmael is the true heir of Israel. Its the same exact thing with the Khazar theory. Inventing myths to undermine the myths of the jews.
>>1058715
>Its obvious who is shilling this theory, muslims
t.Christcuck shill
>>1058279
why do you and others feel compelled to write YHWH but not LHM for Elohim
just write Yahweh and Elohim. really no need to be an obnoxious wall breaking twat.
>>1058715
Except according to Islamic theology, it's Ismail, not Isaac, who gets offered up by Abraham, and if this is correct, he's the one who gets his throat slit.
>>1058715
>If Issac died, then Ishmael is the true heir of Israel.
wat. muslims had Ishmael take the place of Isaac in the story. having the story be an actual human sacrifice undermines their narrative that the Quran is 100% accurate
>>1058740
since YHVH became forbidden to say out loud we don't know how it was originally pronounced, unlike Elohim. Yahweh is a very accurate guess but it's not for certain
>>1058715
cant avoid reading this post in the voice of the guy from panel three of pic related
>>1058770
it being forbade from being spoken has nothing to do with its possibility of phonological reconstruction. do you understand that?
something like sumerian is different only because we have literally no reference intrinsic (no recorded pronunciation of any words) or extrinsic (it's an isolated language).
>>1058740
>why do you and others feel compelled to write YHWH but not LHM for Elohim
Because we literally have no idea how YHWH is supposed to be pronounced, whereas we do for the word 'Elohim'.
>>1058791
and how is this possible with no vowels?
>>1058819
How do vowels even enter into it? If you look at very, very old Hebrew manuscripts, none of the words have vowels or cantillation of any sort (or punctuation, for that matter), which only starts appearing in the middle ages, at which point all words, even the tetragrammaton, have them.
What's next? Modern Hebrew words are impornouncable because you look at Israeli newspapers and they don't have vowels either?
>>1058832
are you retarded? if we wrote english without vowels we would pick up what the vowels were naturally from being native speakers. knowing the full pronunciation is impossible without the knowledge of a native speaker since the vowels aren't written. if there are no native speakers left that are willing to pronounce it for generations the pronunciation is lost
>>1058842
>if there are no native speakers left that are willing to pronounce it for generations the pronunciation is lost
Now prove that this is the case. Oh wait, you can't.
>>1058846
>Now prove that this is the case. Oh wait, you can't.
kek, you are retarded. this is common knowledge. ask any observant Jew to pronounce YHVH
>>1058715
I don't think OP was going for that, but I can sorta understand the logic you are describing. There are some bizzaro /pol/ Christians on this board who in their quest to delegitimize Judaism, argue a biased interpretation of the OT revised to fit NT canon (which Jews do not follow), and sperg about how Jews are in denial about Jesus and are deserving of their suffering for not performing the same allegorical eisegesis in their commentary. Nevermind that the Jewish version of the OT is far older than the Christian revisions and that both narratives can exist without invalidating the other's claim due to differences in opinion and interpretation. Its like George Lucas putting Anakin's ghost in at the end of the Return of the Jedi.special edition - it was cool for fans of the Clone Wars (Christians), but it pisses of fans of the OT (Jews). That the later writing answers (unasked) questions in the first does not mean that it is required to properly interpret the original.
The Muslim claim against Jews is pretty selfish, considering they borrowed from both Christian and Jewish theology, while being in denial of their own unique pre Islamic pagan roots.
>>1058849
A prohibition of such which pops up in the Mishnah. It was pronounced, and relatively regularly, during the temple eras.
https://archive.org/stream/encyclopaediabri15chisrich#page/311/mode/1up
And by that point, you have a continuity of tradition as to how all the various divine names were pronounced in Rabbinic circles, which means there isn't the time for the pronounciation to be lost from having "no native speakers left that are willing to pronounce it".
Idiot.
>>1058819
because phonological reconstruction of vowels does not depend on adjacent vowels as vowels themselves come into existence after the fact of consonants.
>>1058842
the question of the pronunciation of hebrew is entirely different to something like the example I gave (sumerian) where it is actually lost because aside from individual words being absent, the entire language itself is absent. with hebrew this is simply not the case. this is the fact of the matter: if the pronunciation is known of just a couple old hebrew words, then the pronunciation of the word Yahweh can be scientifically reconstructed.
>>1057897
These come well after the story of Isaac. Those are discussed in Judges, during the exodus
>>1058386
>The Hebrew Bible never stated that God created ex nihilo
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
- Gen 1:1
Not after the battle, not out of a corpse, no just IN THE BEGINNING.
>he'd shaped the Earth from already extant primordial elements.
The Earth wasn't made until the third day.
>the Biblical cosmology is in no way "radically different" from the cosmologies of any of the other Semitic religions,
A covenant making monotheistic deity is unique to Israelite civilization. This is a fact.
>>1059269
Israelite civilisation arose DURING the production of the 4 major narratives which were redacted into the Torah, and the Torah shows obviously signs that prior to the monotheistic revolution in jewish culture, that the stories were part of a polytheist culture with traditional semitic religious features.
Fuck me mate. Your magic book isn't an adequate source for itself. Because it is a complex bookie wookie heavily redacted long after the development of monotheistic Israel.
>>1059269
You can't have a proper discussion about the origins of the abrahamic religions on this board thanks to people like this guy. You won't convince anyone that the bible is legit and you won't be convinced that it isn't so why even bother?
>>1059269
You're an idiot, plain and simple.
>>1058279
You're seriously ignorant. YHWH is Elohim.
>>1058386
It's a shame you're blinded to the truth, Jew.
>>1058505
>I can't tell God from demons, the post.
>>1058558
>Given my bullshit lies and ignorance, isn't it more likely that my lies are more real than the truth to me?
>>1058661
Moses thought that the people would recognize him as their leader.
They did not.
40 years later, God appointed Moses as their leader.
>>1058364
You sound like you're literally shaking.
>>1058715
Pretty much. Liars, and people who love lies hate the plain truth of the bible.
The plain truth is that God stayed Abraham's hand from killing his only begotten son, but did not stay His own hand from killing His only begotten Son. And Abraham even told his people, his son, that God would provide Himself a lamb for the sacrifice. That Lamb's name is Jesus.
And just as Abraham knew God could and would raise Isaac from the dead, God raised Jesus from the dead.
The only way to not understand that is to have been blinded by God Himself.
>>1058770
It's intentionally designed to not be said out loud, so that the person does not say it out loud incorrectly and thus blaspheme God.
>>1058832
Your Hebrew is obviously weak.
>>1058866
The tanakh is the Old Testament, albeit organized differently. There are no grammatical differences of note.
>>1058955
I would be hard pressed to find anyone who loved God and who believed killing babies is fine with Him.
>>1058386
While you have some points and there are similarities. There are also many differences. It is like those people who claim Machiavelli wasn't doing anything new and then mention similarities but completely ignore the differences.
>>1059269
To be fair beginning is indefinite here so we could read it in a beginning.
>>1058364
i can picture steam coming out of your ears
>>1060890
what about divine command theory
>>1060863
>>1060865
>>1060866
>>1060867
>>1060880
Fuck off, Christcuck samefag.
>>1060955
I subscribe to it. You are correct. I should have said "murder babies" instead of "kill babies", because "kill babies" includes "kill babies on orders from God".
A feat both necessary and terrible to behold, which is likely why Joshua stopped prior to ridding the promised land of all Canaanites (and why we have ISIS today).
>>1060956
Go back to class, learn what samefagging means, and come back when you're 18.
>>1060962
fair enough
>>1058870
But they just started using the Adonai vowels on YHWH. Making it like Jehovah but the word itself seems to be more akin to a verb for he exists or something related which is the rub.
Not the guy you were arguing with, by the way.
>>1058866
>The Muslim claim against Jews is pretty selfish, considering they borrowed from both Christian and Jewish theology, while being in denial of their own unique pre Islamic pagan roots.
But can't anyone argue that about anything? I bet you say the Jews got their religion from pagan Semites and Zoroastrians and that Christians from pagan Romans, Greek philosophy and Judaism. Again the differences are important and the changes. A Muslim is very different than a Jew or Christian and all of these religions are very different from different systems of polytheism which are in turn very different from one another. Besides Islam's claim is to be a return to God's religion that has always existed to some extent and in some manner that it has similarity to Christianity or Judaism isn't strange.
>>1058870
>The talmud is sacred, the post.
>>1060980
>But they just started using the Adonai vowels on YHWH.
Who said that was the right thing to do? Doesn't that seem rather random?
>>1060993
Exactly which is why people aren't sure how to pronounce YHWH, although I personally think it would be Yahweh as in a verb.
I think the argument for why they did that is that it removed them more from profaning God's name hence the whole ha Shem and G-d thing now. It just keeps going.
>>1061006
Isn't that obviously the case? That mispronouncing God's name is blasphemy, and so the best way to not commit blasphemy, a sin punishable by death, was to not even try to pronounce the unpronounceable YHWH?
And to either gloss over it or to say HaShem?
I think the really odd thing is that people who built a golden calf and worshiped it, and then murdered Jesus, think blasphemy is mispronouncing God's name.
>>1061014
I don't know. I can't remember a very explicit statement about not saying YHWH. I know it developed to being a once a year affair with the tabernacle and the priest but I aleays find it odd how Jews emphasize this.
And it isn't odd that they prefer doing this to other things (to take a modern example, Jews who don't believe in God but won't eat pork) because they are very legalistic just like Christians are very spiritual. Just look at Christians that will do literally anything but think their belief is the only important thing in the sense that they might be nudists, adulterers, or baseball card collectors but still very Christian. I think Muslims tend to take a middle approach with some deviations and inclinations at times.
>>1060980
No they didn't.
"Adonai" vowelation would be kamatz attached to the aleph, a cholem attached to the dalet, and a chireq attached to the nun.
Meanwhile, "YHWH" gets a sheva attached to the yud, a cholem attached to the hey, and a kamatz to the vav.
They're no more related than lots of random Hebrew words which share a pair of vowels attached to different letters in different spaces.
>>1060990
>I am quite literally retarded: the post.
Prohibition against pronunciation of Jehovah is Mishnaic in origin, it was done earlier, which leaves no real gap for the "true pronunciation" to be forgotten
>>1061014
>I think
Bullshit. You're like the ducktalk from 1984, speech devoid of any sort of thought.
>>1061041
>No they didn't.
I meant the reading of YHWH as Jehovah. Doesn't that use the Adonai vowelling?
>>1059300
> the Torah, and the Torah shows obviously signs that prior to the monotheistic revolution in jewish culture, that the stories were part of a polytheist culture
Yes I'm sure the signs are 'obvious' to any unbiased objective rational scholar without any kind of agenda. It's just these ignorant sky daddy believers haven't been enlightened by their own intelligence to see them!
>monotheistic revolution
Which just happened randomly by a coincidence! You see, the objective critical scholars realized that Israelites used to be polytheists but then became monotheistic one day because reasons. It's all very deep and you wouldn't understand so there's no need to elaborate.
>Your magic book isn't an adequate source for itself. Because it is a complex bookie wookie
and a tip o' le fedore to you as well good sir!
>>1061052
>I meant the reading of YHWH as Jehovah. Doesn't that use the Adonai vowelling?
No, not at all. I mean, there are a couple of shared vowels, but they're not in the same order, not attached to the same letters, and you have additional vowels that are not in common.
"Jehovah" would be written as
יְהוָה
Wheras "Adonai" would be written as
אֲדֹנָי
>>1058846
This is literally what happened when Israel was founded O_o. Different Jewish people arrived and weren't able to understand each other cause their bible lacks vowels. They all pronounced words differently.
>>1061070
Didn't follow the whole discussion but how retarded are people ITT if you have to point those things out? I mean this is pretty much what you learn in the first week of an ulpan.
>>1061057
>Yes I'm sure the signs are 'obvious' to any unbiased objective rational scholar without any kind of agenda. It's just these ignorant sky daddy believers haven't been enlightened by their own intelligence to see them!
Not that guy. But what exactly are you saying? We pretty much now that YHWH was a war-god during the Iron Age who had competing gods.
>>1061041
>Prohibition against pronunciation of Jehovah is Mishnaic in origin, it was done earlier, which leaves no real gap for the "true pronunciation" to be forgotten
As I said, it's hilarious that Jews think mispronouncing God's name is blasphemy, but killing God's Son is okay.
>>1061116
Oh please GTFO.
>>1061113
>I have never read the Mesha Stele, the post.
>>1061120
Imagine how ignorant your forefathers were to be standing in the presence of YHWH, Who said to them "Before Abraham was, I AM", and still not know He is your God.
Oh, wait, you don't have to imagine that level of ignorance. You're there. You live it. Even with 2000 years of hindsight.
Remember what Gamaliel said? Kill the shepherd, and the sheep will scatter?
How many people still follow Jesus?
>>1061122
The Mesh Stele is 200-300 younger than the time I was referring to. Also the text might be interpreted as a proof for polytheism. So what you are you saying?
>>1061123
I don't even know what you are talking about. My "forefathers" are all atheists/communists with a military or philosophical background. And I am not Jewish, Mr. pathological anti-judaist.
>>1061116
>As I said, it's hilarious that Jews think mispronouncing God's name is blasphemy, but killing God's Son is okay.
It's amazing how wrong this statement is. I just want to sit back and admire how you can pack so many bad ideas into so short a framework.
Mispronouncing the name isn't the problem; in fact, that's why you have deliberate mispronunciation of other divine names. The problem is uttering the divine name for no good purpose.
And yeah, Jesus isn't God, or God's son, or any such twaddle.
>>1061126
Yeah, most things are written after the fact.
Except of course the bible, which includes about 30% content prior to the fact.
But you keep confusing Chemosh with YHWH, see how that works out for ya.
>>1061135
Nothing worse than Jews in denial.
I actually worship a Jew, which of course you would know if you knew anything worth knowing.
>>1061140
>deliberate mispronunciation of other divine names
Yes, to blaspheme them. Because names are important.
Keep sitting back in awe, though. I like that.
>>1061140
>And yeah, Jesus isn't God, or God's son, or any such twaddle.
He is, though.
>>1061142
In case you haven't noticed but I am not the guy you were arguing. Fact remains that YHWH is considered a warrior god in his early days.
So yeah.
>>1061148
To be fair, the curse isn't for killing God's only begotten Son, but for wanting to.
And then for making His sacrifice on your behalf meaningless.
>>1061148
It's almost like there isn't a "J" is Hebrew....
>>1061149
He's also God when it's peace time. He's the God of the mountains, and of the valleys. He's the God of fair weather and calamitous weather. He's the God no matter what is happening, because He is God.
The only thing God did for the Canaanites was to put them out of their misery.
>>1061158
Shhhhhhh, don't tell the JWs. They'll panic!
>>1061158
We're talking about vowelling here and nobody spells Yehowah. There's also not a v. But he spelled Yahweh and not Yehowah and then says see, the vowelling is different than Adonai while I say it is like Yehowah. This is good bait.
>>1061168
It's spelled, in English, YHWH.
It's unpronounceable on purpose.
That concept seems to elude most of you.
>>1061160
Yeah now. And now brace yourself: Things might have been different 3200 years ago! I guess it's hard to believe but literally every theoretician agree on that.
Have you ever read anything on the origins of the Jewish faith written by a scholar?
>In all likelihood, Hebrews of the patriarchal period (second millennium B.C.E.) as well as many first-millennium Israelites and Judeans were not markedly different from many of their polytheistic neighbors... Most scholars conjecture that ancient Israelite-Judean religion (the practices and beliefs of the actual inhabitants of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah in the first millennium B.C.E.) was at the most monolatrous (promoting the worship of one God, Yahweh, without denying the existence of other gods) rather than monotheistic (asserting the reality of one god only).
>"In the Hebrew scriptures, we find a theological image of God rooted in the social structure of Israelites monarchy. Since this is a monarchy confined to a single ethnic group, the image of God is one of henotheism rather than monotheism".
Too lazy to quote anything that is not online.
>>1061168
I'm sorry, I'm having trouble understanding where you're going with this.
As for the pronunciation, 'Y'how'vwah" is probably most accurate, moreso than "Yehowah", since you don't have a segol at the beginning, and with a very soft vav.
And yes, the vowleing is far different from "Adonai", which I pointed and even spelled out in a previous post>>1061070
What exactly is the "bait"?
>>1061177
>written by a scholar?
Spotted the logical fallacy: appeal to authority.
Dude, I hire experts. With doctorates. No matter what position I want to defend or attack, I can find a "scholar" who will say exactly the opposite of what the other side's "scholar" says.
>>1061196
Find me someone from a peer reviewed paper denying the polytheistic origin of YHWH. Go ahead. And of course I appeal to authorities in the way that I don't run around in the desert looking for 3000 old artifacts to examine them. Also you not answering my questions makes me think you didn't read anything scientific on the Jewish faith. I studied 6 months in Be'er Scheva and took mostly classed on the origin of Judaism, so I know and saw 1-2 things. Everyone of my teachers was Jewish and hardcore Zionist but still less deluded than you.
Have the most famous quote from the Deuteronomy indicating that YHWH one faced competition:
>There is none like God, O Jeshurun
who rides through the heavens to your help ...
he subdues the ancient gods, shatters the forces of old ...
so Israel lives in safety, untroubled is Jacob's abode ...
Your enemies shall come fawning to you,
and you shall tread on their backs.
>he subdues the ancient gods,
>gods
>Monotheism has been defined as the belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God
So yeah. I am gonna watch a movie now. You blew the chance to talk with someone who is neither a nazi nor a retard.
>>1061160
>The only thing God did for the Canaanites was to put them out of their misery.
Canaanite became Israelites you buffoon. There are a plethora of "canaanite" idols found in Jewish homes up until the babylonian captivity. Early jewish temples follow the exact design of canaanite temples. Canaanite cities were largely abandoned - almost none show any signs of destruction. The few that do have destruction layers dating hundreds and hundreds of year apart. At around the time the canaanite cities are abandoned signs of new occupation occur in the canaanite hill country (like Galilee). The bottom half of pic related is a good example: one of the pots is israeli and the other is canaabite. They're identical. The conquest of canaan is a tribal origin myth and very similar to pretty much every other tribal origin myth.
>>1061196
>Spotted the logical fallacy: appeal to authority.
Well you are appealing to sources which were edited over the course of hundreds and thousands of years only. Which is appealing to authority also, but false authority since you fail to entertain any kind of source criticism
>>1061196
>appeal to biblical authority is special and different from other appeals from authority
you're super good at logic, aren't you?
>>1061226
It's called "the bible".
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
>>1061226
>nor a retard.
Very much disagree.
>>1061247
>>1061239
If a few wise Canaanites became righteous Gentiles in the Land of Israel, so be it.
For the most part they were the most wicked people on earth, given 400 years to repent, and failing to do so.
>>1061241
Your inference that "edited" means "changed" is nonsense. The bible is 99.5% intact over thousands of years.
>>1061246
Yes.
See, a special pleading fallacy carries with it "without any reason for the exception".
God is the reason for the exception.
>>1061252
>I'm so dizzy I see circles where there are none.
>>1061256
>If a few wise Canaanites became righteous Gentiles in the Land of Israel, so be it.
>For the most part they were the most wicked people on earth, given 400 years to repent, and failing to do so.
All archaeological, genetic, and linguistic evidence indicate they are literally the same people. This is fact.
Israelites did not emerge out of nowhere 3000 years ago.
>>1061262
>>1061264
>god is the reason for the exception
you're literally quoting the diagram explaining how your logic is circular.
>>1061262
God didn't write the bible though. Which is proven by the different dialects and the contradictions in the text.
>>1061267
Abraham came out of Ur of the Chaldeas.
That seems to confuse you.
He came out of there, and started a new people; his great grandsons are the 12 tribes of Israel.
When the Jews worshiped foreign demon gods, it was the foreign demon gods of the Canaanites for the most part.
And calling Ba'al, El, Asheroth, Molech, etc., demon gods does not make them actual gods; it just means that people worshiped them as gods. As they do now.
>>1061270
>I'm dizzy and I vomit nonsense on Manchurian puppetry boards.
>>1061279
He did, actually, in collaboration with Man.
It's all about making collaborations with Men.
>>1061279
>God didn't write the bible though. Which is proven by the different dialects and the contradictions in the text.
Fool! There are no exceptions. Because the bible is always right. And the bible is always right because the bible is the word of god! And the bible is the word of God because the the bible tells us it's the word of god! And the bible is inerrant text because God cannot lie, because the bible says god cannot lie, and the bible is the word of god, because the bible tells us it's the word of god. Fool!
>>1061281
>Abraham came out of Ur of the Chaldeas.
If Abraham existed he was gentically identical to canaanites, like all israelis.
Until you can explain that away without
>muh circular logic which isn't circular because the source I use say it isn't
then you can leave /his/
>>1061284
>Sorry guys I was wrong when I told you to write that down 500 years ago, please review it
>Also please pep the language up a bit
>>1061281
>Abraham came out of Ur of the Chaldeas.
Yeah so?
>>1061288
It's a shame you think you are being ironic, while missing the point.
All of the 40 or so men who wrote the 66 books of the bible over 1500 years were indwelled with, and inspired by, the Holy Spirit of God, Who brought all things to their remembrance.
The Word of God is true because God does not lie, and God is not wrong.
>>1061293
No Canaanite had the lineage of Abraham to Isaac to Jacob/Israel to the 12 tribes of Israel, no.
As to family, we all relate back to Noah's three sons. And yes, both the Hebrews and the Arabs came from Shem.
>>1061301
Never, nothing, and no. 'twas satan whispered in Mohammad's ear.
>>1061306
OUT
As in, left. Did not remain. Did not stay. Vamoosed.
>>1061310
Is this true for the translated version you read too? Also is there a definite list of god inspired translations? I don't want to read anything that got scientific treatment.
>>1061317
They're not the same at all. Yours attempted to posit a circular argument where the bible is true because the bible says it's true, which any book can do.
The second is the actual inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God being involved in the writing of the only holy book on the planet.
>>1061323
I'm fine with 99.5%, actually, since I have 100% of the Holy Spirit.
>>1061321
Yeah but what does this have to do with the initial point about the Canaanites?
>>1061327
They went their separate ways, the Arabs later to be mostly annihilated by the descendants of Abraham in the cleansing of the promised land. And Ur is up in Iraq; not exactly the same locale.
>>1061324
How desperate a man faithful man must be to argue something like that. I met people devoted to the Christian faith, working all day of their lives with homeless and/or handicapped people and none of them cared whether Mary was a virgin or not. God's message is His message, who cares about petty details? If you need to take stories like those seriously to justify your faith you are the on in deep, deep doubts about it.
>>1061324
>The second is the actual inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God being involved in the writing of the only holy book on the planet.
And your only evidence for the holy spirit inspiring the bible is the bible telling you the holy spirit inspired the bible. If you can't see that the two are logically identical than you are dumber than a dog. And dogs eat their own shit.
>>1061326
>He can't even read Hebrew
How the fuck do you even claim to know what the texts are about? All your knowledge is based on external authorities preparing the text for you. You can't even read the sources you are talking about.
Pic related.
Let's prove God and where to look for Him.
Rome persecutes christians.
The inquisition and witch hunts persecute "witches" and "devil worshippers" that do "magic" (miracles) - Notice the date when black death appeared.
Psychiatry still hasn't been proven to have a clinical test that objectively defines who has a "mental illness" all we have is some photographs, and lots of words where "maybe" "could be" "must have" and other "probablys" appear. And those meds are known (search the internet) to make you unhappy, suicidal, anhedonic, etc.
It is still the same persecution of the same christians but merely pretending.
The bible says (and it has been modified to hell and back by those who hate mankind) that the devil hates humans.
Let's see an example:
Serve your enemies, love your enemies, be poor, be dumb, give your money away. Do not make sure if this is actually God, you do not try and test that, it is "sin", humilliate yourself everywhere and die a virgin, be struck painfully by everyone and don't defend yourself and give the other cheek. God is "testing" you, not punishing you for following the wrong path. Pleasure is bad, suffering good. Your sexuality is evil.
So, in short, pleasure is "evil" and suffering "good", anyone able to tell me if these are not the words of a hellish fiend that hates you and takes you for a fool?
When you look for God and the true Christ, you look with faith and skepticism, omnipotence is omnipotence, and a lack of convincing miracles is impotence, and you look from the perspective of freedom, from the one where you are loved and desired as you are. And trust no one (especially not your family) that doesn't prove perfectly that comes from God, you will be able to do miracles yourself when you know it all and all is correct.
>>1061350
And if you insist on going the jesus route: I was punished with sickness, I got 200kg fat in some 2 years (you DON'T get this fat eating in two years), pain, misery, illness, idiocy, dormancy, desire to kill myself, desire to get cancer, desire to go to hell. That doesn't sound like God's blessing at all, and much less if He then "abandons" you to send you to "evil", when you desperately call Him for help. And yes, my life has improved severely after going the alleged "evil" way.
And just so you know what kind of aberations you're dealing with:
>God makes humans
>These are my sons, you are to serve them, as usual you have my power at your disposal, so really, no effort, no nothing.
>No, we will kill them, hunt them, hurt them, torture them, deprive them of pleasure, revile them, make themselves hate themselves and their nature and much more!
Oh wow, why is there a hell?
Don't trust the names of the bible, handle with care the bible if you do actually decide to read it, and see how people want at any cost that you avoid this path.
>God isn't real
This means in your language: Be stupid, do not seek, do not try, trust me, you're better off being stupid and dying dumbly, do not actually do the smart thing and check for yourself, be dumb for me.
Things they claim:
The rich do not go to heaven: Apparently a person that's loaded as fuck is under God's wrath.
People that have lots of sex of different kinds that aren't authorized in the bible go to hell: Apparently a person that's enjoying this much is being punished.
Because you see, people hate bad things:
Riches? Nobody wants them.
Sex? Everybody hates it.
Being beaten to a pulp while turning the other cheek? Oh yeah, everybody does this.
And last, God gives freedom, that's what you will find in the true Christ. Oh, and demons read minds, so consider it.
>>1061354
The word pasta doesn't prove the contents of a post false.
>>1061359
Yeah but the letters tldr prove that I don't care about the posts.
>>1058516
Of course, it's called his confirmation bias, but don't be lazy and not refute him on that basis alone.
>>1061363
Meaning? Are you important to me or something?
I seek my own, anybody getting so buttblasted at me trying to pull people away from what I say in any way they deem possible is not of my own, so you can go die in a fire.
Because I sure as fuck care for humans only.
>>1061350
>The inquisition and witch hunts persecute "witches" and "devil worshippers" that do "magic" (miracles) - Notice the date when black death appeared.
Wrong.
a) The inquisition lasted 500 years and was a very varied process.
b) The main goal was to persecute "wrong" Christians like the Amauriani. Magic and witches played a very small role but make cool memes and movies.
>Psychiatry still hasn't been proven to have a clinical test that objectively defines who has a "mental illness"
There are several methods to establish a mental illness. Clinically, for depression for example, biochemical imbalances are observable.
So yeah I won't care with the rest of the pasta.
>>1061373
>I seek my own
>that's why I post pasta on a Chinese child trafficking page
>>1061324
>>1061341
how are these different, christcuck? like holy fucking shit you got nuked
>>1058742
But how could he and Ibrahim build Mecca with their moonstone if either of them were killed.
CONSISTENCY FAGS
>>1061336
All your good deeds are as filthy rags to a holy God.
Mary did not remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus; she had many children with Joseph, died, and was reunited with Him in heaven.
I have never met a Christian who did not know the bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.
>>1061375
>wrong, we persecuted the "wrong" christians
He's confessing the tale at the same time he denies it, he is saying it: WE PERSECUTED THE TRUE ONES.
>There are several methods to establish a mental illness
Yes, none of which use objective measurements done by a machine that is present in every psychiatric hospital, post that machine here that does objective measurements and demonstrate that it is used as a standard.
Oh wait no, shrinks just ask you silly questions and make shit up.
>>1061123
>Gloating about others forefathers burning in hell
Classic,
>>1061341
Nope. Study prophecy. 30% of the bible is prophetic and tells the future. And God's prophets were 100% accurate and precise or they died.
Only God knows the end from the beginning; only God can tell the future like it's the past.
>>1061342
An Hebrew and a Canaanite are two different people.
There would never be a Hebrew Canaanite, or a Canaanite Hebrew.
>>1061349
You sound exactly like a muslim who says that the quran can only be understood by native Arabic speakers.
Exactly the same.
>>1061383
>Mary
>A virgin at the birth of Jesus.
I don't know why so many fundies try to revamp the miracle of Anal Birth with Virgin Birth. It's absolutely disgusting.
>>1061351
>you DON'T get this fat eating in two years)
You did.
>Go to where alleged "humans" that are angry at God for being allegedly evil.
>Explain that the bible was rewritten by sons of the devil, that God made you a feminine boy because he wants you to enjoy this way and approves of it.
>Suddenly the people that are angry at God for being "evil" do not approve of this doctrine and insist that the true goodness and most holy of things is the "evil" they were criticising in the OP.
>>1058816
Also because while elohim has a plural and thus royal connotation (royalty always referred to themselves as plural because they felt they were the nation/sovereign incarnate), YHWH is implicated as the real name of God. Unpronounceable and holy, the letters are basically a rabbinic dogma signifying this importance.
>>1061386
Arms length away from their God, and they didn't know it.
They know it now.
>>1061400
Elohim. A plural word used in the singular sense.
Trinity. A plural word used in the singular sense.
About the same being.
>>1061406
So you are admitting God never let them know he was their God and now is gonna let them burn in hell for all eternity because of it?
>>1061385
>post that machine here that does objective measurements
>>1061409
>Elohim. A plural word used in the singular sense.
Except of course, all the times it is used in a plural sense.
>>1061410
Matthew 26
And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! What do you think?”
They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”
>>1061419
In Genesis 1, it's used in the singular sense: Let us make mankind in our image......and He made mankind in His image....
The Trinity. One Being. One God. Three persons, united as One.
>>1061394
No, I sound like someone with a basic training in historical science and a basic understanding of the Hebrew language. If you deny to that you need to learn the language of your sources you are either very lazy or simply retarded. But you are probably just American.
>>1061421
>Illegal night trial, illegal questioning of witness, illegal oath, illegal self-incrimination, illegal lack of witnesses, illegal lack of evidence, illegal everything possible.....
It's kind of a wonder they could even convince themselves they weren't lawbreakers.
>>1061387
>Study prophecy.
Prophecy. Of a book edited over thousands of years. OK bud.
>30% of the bible is prophetic and tells the future
>The bible is prophetic because it tells me it's prophetic
how in the honest fuck have you failed to understand the crux of the argument? It's so. fucking. basic.
>>1061392
And you have 0 archeological, linguistic or genetic evidence for that claim
>>1061430
You are positing that nobody can translate Hebrew into English.
>>1061434
Yes. It's the same as written, over 1900 years ago. And you're living in prophecy being fulfilled. We're most way through Ezekiel 37 and winding our way to Ezekiel 38.
>>1061435
You're the one who lives like an animal.
I believe God.
>>1061421
Yes, and?
We are talking about millions of afterliving Jews that didn't know Jesus was their true God.
What do they have to do with what a bunch of corrupt head priests did to Jesus?
>>1061442
>Yes. It's the same as written, over 1900 years ago. And you're living in prophecy being fulfilled. We're most way through Ezekiel 37 and winding our way to Ezekiel 38.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
How?
>>1061426
Retard. Why don't you look up the ten commandments?
>I am the Lord your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery: You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:2
>Do not go after other gods, of the gods of the people that surround you
Deuteronomy 6:14
>>1061430
Not without changing (some of the) content of it no. It's really basic stuff. They told me that in my first uni course. Translation is necessarily always (partly) translation. Even in bible class we were talking about the Hebrew/Greek works in the original text.
Also you are confirmed to be an American by now since you probably don't even have a secondary language.
>>1061443
Strangely I am surrounded by books and even god-fearing people who laugh at your plebby understanding of the scripture.
>I believe God.
Feel like talking about logical fallacies again?
>>1061443
>believing God instead of believing in God
>They are turned back and utterly put to shame, who trust in carved idols, who say to metal images, “You are our gods.”
>For by grace you have been saved athrough faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, eso that no one may boast.
You don't sound very Christian bruh.
>>1061057
>Yes I'm sure the signs are 'obvious' to any unbiased objective rational scholar without any kind of agenda.
Pretty much. Asherah plus the redacted multiple names and spirit animals. The complex redaction of different thoroughly semetic non-Egyptian worship traditions. The centralising impulse of the Samaritan and Jewish temples.
>Which just happened randomly by a coincidence!
I most certainly didn't say that. Feel free to offer theological interpretations grounded in an intervening personal god. I'll prefer historical materialist ones, but these don't make yours invalid in a scholarly sense.
>>Your magic book isn't an adequate source for itself. Because it is a complex bookie wookie
>and a tip o' le fedore to you as well good sir!
>[a source is valid for itself.]
>>>/x/
>>1063824
And I'm not contradicting myself, I know exactly what he posted, read any magazine: it's all "perhaps", maybe, this could be,
And no psychiatrist has those nor uses those to diagnose you, which is something I said you had to prove aswell and you sure as fuck didn't.
In fact those aren't used at psychiatric hospitals at all. Those are used by NEUROLOGISTS.
Ancient Hebrew has no vowels dumbasses.
It required a Rabbi to interpret the scripture.
>>1063832
And if you doubt it?
A neurologist is an actual doctor of the brain, he physically examines it with tools, determines if there is damage and then sees to it that it is fixed.
A psychiatrist? "Oooooh, I seee the miiiind, whith my naked eyeeees"
Because there are none of those machines in a psychiatric hospital, and I know this because yes, I've been to several.
Know what's on a psychiatric hospital?
Restraints. Things to tie you up, electrodes to torture you with. Things like these.
Because you know, electrocuting you will surely fix (fry) your brain.
Search the internet.
>>1061436
You can't translate the full meaning of any language into any other language. including English => English.
Learn about hermeneutics for fucks sake.
>>1061239
Plus. Hebrew belongs to the Canaanite dialectal continuum and is considered to be a sister language of Phoenician, Amorite, etc. It's really astounding how similar those languages are.
>>1061409
Trinity is not a grammatically plural noun.
>>1061350
>Inquisition starts in the middle of the 13th century
>The black plague reaches Europe in the 14th
Yeah, and?
>>1061421
I think biblefags are hilarious which is why I am reading but to point out only living god would mean that there were other gods and they died? just correct you langue and all will be fine.
>>1061057
>but then became monotheistic one day because reasons
Actually they went from polytheistic > monolatrist polytheists > monotheists over hundreds of years.
This video explains it well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg]
This isn't some fringe theory either, if you attend a Biblical history class at any university that doesn't have the words "Bible" and "without error" in its doctrinal statement this is what they will be teaching
>>1061442
>being this naive
M8, I'm as much of a Christcuck as you can get, but holy shit, how does someone become THIS naive?
>>1063847
Modern Hebrew has now vowel dumbass
It requires a rabbi to read the newspaper.
>>1064872
>It requires a rabbi to read the newspaper.
Actually it does. You don't read deep enough.
