How come pagan invaders like Anglo-Saxons and Danes all eventually caved to Christianity? Seems strange that conquerors would readily accept the religion of their enemies. Especially since Germanic paganism was a much more suitable ideology for a warrior culture.
Because Christianity = civilization back then.
>>1046954
Because Christianity was politically convenient and it promised that the good guys would win unlike Germanic mythology which is very melancholy.
Why did the Ptolemies start fucking their siblings, calling themselves Pharaoh and put make up on?
Sometimes the conquered culture is strong enough to influence the conquerors.
politics
>you cant attack me now, haha, the pope told me im a "christian" now
>ahaa ill take this up aswell
>what a joke get out of jail card
>>1047027
Did Saxons have that much correspondence with the Roman Church when they started Christianizing in the 7th century?
Regardless it didn't help much against the Danes.
>>1046954
>Especially since Germanic paganism was a much more suitable ideology for a warrior culture.
If you are interested in learning about Christian warrior culture I suggest you read this:
http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/344bern2.html
And this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Rule
They are also good reads for any Christian man, if any of you are. A great example of Christian manhood and what it means.
>Once he finds himself in the thick of battle, this knight sets aside his previous gentleness, as if to say, "Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord; am I not disgusted with your enemies?" These men at once fall violently upon the foe, regarding them as so many sheep. No matter how outnumbered they are, they never regard these as fierce barbarians or as awe-inspiring hordes. Nor do they presume on their own strength, but trust in the Lord of armies to grant them the victory. They are mindful of the words of Maccabees, "It is simple enough for a multitude to be vanquished by a handful. It makes no difference to the God of heaven whether he grants deliverance by the hands of few or many; for victory in war is not dependent on a big army, and bravery is the gift of heaven." On numerous occasions they had seen one man pursue a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight.
>Thus in a wondrous and unique manner they appear gentler than lambs, yet fiercer than lions. I do not know if it would be more appropriate to refer to them as monks or as soldiers, unless perhaps it would be better to recognize them as being both. Indeed they lack neither monastic meekness nor military might. What can we say of this, except that this has been done by the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes. These are the picked troops of God, whom he has recruited from the ends of the earth; the valiant men of Israel chosen to guard well and faithfully that tomb which is the bed of the true Solomon, each man sword in hand, and superbly trained to war.
Pretty much all of England's original inhabitants were Christian, and many of the Anglo-Saxon and Danish chieftains' were Christians, which helped a lot. Even better was that so many priests and missionaries were very educated men, variously thoroughly adept in accounting, medicine (which got Harald Bluetooth to convert after a fashion), preaching and singing and chanting (beautiful and worthy to some of the Germanics, who were really a very poetic people), date keeping, writing and communications, etc. It got so that, with enough pestering and showing that those who followed Christ were intelligent and seemingly lucky, most pagans converted, though some pagan customs would keep for a generation or two, or even to today.
>>1047027
t. CK2 player and historical illiterate
>>1048001
Oh and not only of individual Christian manhood but if you read the Latin Rule it is an outline of real Christian men who lived as brothers at war and what it meant to them.
Same reason poor people have always aped the religion of rich and influential people
>>1048042
Saxons were the rich and influential ones though, once their settlements started expanding.
>>1046954
There were instances of Christians honestly impressing Pagans. Whether it was the common people or the nobles, Christians either showed up and provided strong cases for their faith, or were the natives when a pagan government took control of their home.
I can think of the great, and very based, St. Boniface. He showed up in what is now Germany. Saw the locals danced around a certain tree from time to time. He asked why and the locals said it was where the god, Thor resided.
Intrigued, Boniface took of his shirt or rolled up his sleeves - depending on the account you read - before grabbing an axe. Hacking away at the tree, the locals were upset. He told them if Thor lived here and was real, he would surely strike him down for attacking his tree.
Once the tree fell and Boniface stood atop its stump in sweaty victory, the locals began to talk. Of course the local pagan nobility got upset and organized a mob to slay the based Boniface. His actions did impress the general pagan population and started the process of some Germanic pagans to turn over to Christ.
Another example I know off-hand is that of Grand Prince Vladimir of Kiev. Leading the Rus meant a very strong Norse influence with Slavic admixtures. The paganism was diverse there, and well rooted into the local Slavs and continually growing Norse population. Vladimir organized human sacrifices every year, as the local deity Perun demanded of his followers. One year a name was selected by the general populace: Ioann. A young man who lived a generally normal life. His father protested however. He refused to give his son up to sacrifice. He brought the case before his liege. When Vladimir asked why he would deny his son the honor of dying for the god, Perun Ioann's father responded: we are Christians, and believe in the much more powerful almighty God. Vladimir was intrigued and listened to Ioann's father.
He claimed -
>>1046954
Christianity is basically a religion purpose-built to convert heathens.
>Norse say you have to die in honorable combat to get to Valhalla
>Christians say all you have to do is pray to Jesus and you go to Heaven
>Norse don't really have a punishment for you if you don't believe in their faith
>Christians threaten you with eternal hellfire if you aren't Christian
>>1048725
‘Your gods are just plain wood: it is here now but it may rot into oblivion tomorrow; your gods neither eat, nor drink, nor talk and are made by human hand from wood; whereas there is only one God — He is worshiped by Greeks and He created heaven and earth; and your gods? They have created nothing, for they have been created themselves; never will I give my son to the devils!’
The sacrifice still went through when a mob pissed off by the denial of their religion's power and reality killed both Ioann and his father. The entire event shook Vladimir up quite a bit. Interested by the thought of his lifelong paganism being weak and too mortal, he sent envoys out into the world.
Their mission was to get information on the major religions of the time: Greek Christianity, Latin Christianity, Judaism (thank the Khazars for that one), and Islam.
He did not like how Jews and Muslims had to submit to circumcision. He also mocked Islam's ban on pork and alcohol. He thought of the Rus tradition of drinking too important to be outlawed.
The Christianity described by his envoys in Italy and the realm of the Franks impressed them. His envoy in Constantinople wrote back with a loss of words. He could not describe how magnificent the faith there was.
Vladimir traveled there himself to see. What he found was a city filled with Christians devoted to the tenants of their faith. When he attended a service in the Hagia Sophia, his decision became easy: Greek Christianity was the way Christ and God were meant to be worshiped and venerated.
>>1048750
>Norse don't really have a punishment for you if you don't believe in their faith
>Christians threaten you with eternal hellfire if you aren't Christian
If they threatened them outright, no one would convert. That's idiotic to assume that Christianity converted people by threatening them with hell and the like.
It made more sense to either show the pagans that their gods are fake, show great works in the mortal world, or tell them of the great love God has for all mankind.
Christians preserved the legacy of Rome.
>>1046954
>Germanic paganism was a much more suitable ideology for a warrior culture.
>Picking rocks and a tree over the Divine Warrior King who slew Death itself
>>1047988
>Regardless it didn't help much against the Danes.
>tfw Alfred got legitimacy from the pope and defeated the greatest army the Danes had fielded to that point and since
>>1048899
thanks double dubs for the spell check, my English is not the best. It's easy to see how easy the pagan bloodlust could be sated by changing the reason for killing others.
>>1048846
Right but that was because of military victories not because the Pope said Wessex was off-limits
People need to realize that paganism is a natural and normal aspect of any civilization or group of people. Christianity is a tool of authoritarianism and subjugation and is not a natural or normal aspect of civilizations or religions. You can't compare paganism to christianity, they have 2 different sources, 2 different purposes and 2 very different results on a population. Lumping every faith together into the "religion" category is so incredibly narrowminded.
>>1046954
On one hand, the tribes called Jesus "Hvita Kristr" which meant "White Christ." White not being pure and beautiful, but cowardly and pale.
On the other hand, Clovis I came to see Jesus as a new god of war after marrying his wife who was a Christian.
The real reason paganism lost to Christianity is that "Paganism" is not so much a religion like Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc, as it is a loose grouping of superstitions. It has no central authority like a Caliph, Pope, or international priesthood to manage and strategize, It has no holy book or founder to form an agreed upon set of beliefs, and it has no way to gather and distribute funds and resources across localities as because of the aforementioned. Paganism did not lose to Christianity, a hundred thousand petty contradictory squabbling local beliefs lost to a unified organized behemoth one by one.
>>1048725
Fucking Christians if God is real why did miracles stop happening right when photography and other means of reliable recordings appear?
If you don't speak hebrew, are a semite, or speak ancient Greek you're just a larper faggot. Doubly so if you aren't orthodox
>>1048725
Can I be a saint too if I turn up to the local church with some petrol and matches?
>>1048009
>politics doesnt affect beliefs
yes sunshine tell me more about hot historical opinions you learned on le internetz
>converting happened because GERMANIC PPL AR POETIC
yea youd fly out of any exam without wings
I can't account for their motivation but the power of Christ is compelling indeed. If the eyes are open to it anyway. And, at those times? Nary a skeptical thought
.
>>1049287
>>1049243
The rise of Christianity is also concomitant with the rise of philosophy, imo
Christianity is more concrete, more incisive, affecting, impressive, applicable, and utilitarian, with less shaky foundations by its more philosophical approach to religion. Same is true globally with any respective organized religion that grew to preeminence.
>>1047027
>pagan kings nominally become Christian for political reasons
>their sons become legitimate Christians thanks to a court full of clergy
The Pope always gets the last laugh.
>>1047003
congrats for not understanding german myhtology.
It is not a doomcult, ragnarok is the end of one world and the beginning of a new. EVERYTHING in the universe was a cycle of death and birth.
>>1048770
In the case of the norse, Jesus was presented as a warrior god. Once conversion was made the real details followed.
And let's not forget that norway was forced by sword and torture to convert by King Olav the holy.
Jokes on him, he got killed by a pagan in a deer-shirt who ran off to island.
>>1049341
So the most philosophically stable religions are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism?
>>1049197
white=good/kind
to the old norse, Heimdal was refered to as "the whitest of all gods"
I think christianity was mainly adopted to stay relevant in europe. The rest of the european powers would not trade with nonchristians and eventually pagan kingdoms would be a target for a united christian assault in the form of crusades.
Also, if an upstart wanted to be king in his pagan country he could ensure a LOT of foreign suppoert by adopting christianity.
If you look to the mongols you will see that they never left their pagan religion behind, because they were so strong they didnt need to.
>>1049451
>ran off to island
>island
>>1049641
It's place. west of norway, but before you hit greenland.
>>1049622
>If you look to the mongols you will see that they never left their pagan religion behind, because they were so strong they didnt need to.
I don''t think you know Mongol history.
The Mongols in the Middle East converted to Islam.
The ones in China started blabbering Confucianism/Chan buddhism. In the middle of the Yuan Dynasty they've began worshipping their ancestors as well.
The only Tengriists were the ones who did not leave fucking Mongolia.
Pic related, a Yuan Emperor on his way to sacrifice to his ancestral temple.
>>1049328
No, because
>1. Historically, churches were burnt down all the time. God doesn't really protect them unconditionally.
>2. Christians don't have the highest belief that the destroyer of a church will meet retribution from an angry god
Also,
*tip hat*
>>1048770
>That chess game
I need more of this. Nice mate for the Muslim.
>>1049622
>>1049672
Oh and btw the Mongol Empire led to Buddhism dominating the Mongol heartland.
Only a few Tengriists left really.
>>1047988
The entire reason they began to convert was because of a papal mission sent in 597 to Kent under St.Augustine. The relationship with Rome remained close - from 668-690 the Archbishop of Canterbury was the Byzantine Theodore of Tarsus, sent to Britain by the papacy.
>>1049622
>eventually pagan kingdoms would be a target for a united christian assault in the form of crusades.
the crusades only occurred as a response to severe atrocities, religion can't even really be argued as the casus belli given the areas had already been under islamic rule for like 700 years.
>>1046954
Redbull me on Æthelfleda
WHY wasn't "Brittania" personification based off her, rather than some Pseudo-GraecoRoman kitsch?
I hate historical anachronisms.
>>1046954
They practiced Christianity alongside their pagan religions until they dropped paganism a couple sermons down the line. Some aspects of the old pagan traditions still survive today since they were absorbed into Christianity such as holidays like Halloween, Christmas, etc.
>>1049674
>*tip hat*
As if I needed any more proof the jesus freaks here were roleplayers
>>1049748
>crusades only happened against islam
>what are the baltic crusades
how about opening a book mein néger
>>1049751
Because the Enlightenment.
>>1049751
>Fought invaders out of her homeland like Boudicea, but won
>Fought for Christendom like Joan d'Arc, but was feared and respected by her enemies rather than captured and disposed of
>daughter of Alfred the Great
>the term "lady" was made for her because no feminine "lord" or "King" was present in English at the time
Based Saxon monarch.
>>1046954
Several reasons.
For Danes it was mostly political thing - they converted around the time they've started bordering with Christian nations which they didn't have enormous advantage over. By adopting Christianity their rule over their land was recognised by the Christian world which made diplomacy ways simpler. Similar thing goes for Slavs.
For Anglo-Saxons it's little bit different thing it has more to do with living in a place where they've ruled over significant amount of Christians.
There was also the thing about Christians having monopoly on ancient knowledge, so by converting to Christianity, you've entered the club of Europe which allowed you to access to that knowledge through clergy.
Ultimately the reason was that Pagans could theoretically worship Christ while worshipping their own gods but not vice-versa, so people converted to Christianity out of sheer opportunism while the old, pagan stuff became sort of tradition their kids started to drop constantly(that being said there are pagan traditions still alive in the western world, but they're heavily christianised).
>>1049341
>Christianity is more concrete, more incisive, affecting, impressive, applicable, and utilitarian, with less shaky foundations
>yo I'm the messiah cuz I say so :DDD
>>1049748
Yeah, like the crusades against Pomeranian slavs and Baltic tribes like Old Prussians, right?
>>1049748
yeah those finns sure deserved to be crusaded twice. Once after they had taken on the cross even. Well, if they are good for one dunking they are good for two, that's what I always say. get that double-salvation.
>>1049790
and marriage. Marriage is a pagan thing.
>>1049824
>For Anglo-Saxons it's little bit different thing it has more to do with living in a place where they've ruled over significant amount of Christians.
This is absolute bullshit, anglo-saxon conversion was top-down in society. It was a result of missions sent from Rome, initially from pope gregory I believe.
>>1049436
Yes, but in Christianity God doesn't die like Odin and his pals do.
>>1049827
I think he means the Platonistic roots.
>>1049898
Didn't Jesus speak against adultery?
I know for most Germanic peoples Jesus was characterized as a warrior. There was a time where the Christian trinity was incorporated into the Germanic pantheon.
>>1050508
>JesusxWoden fanfic
>religion
>>1049827
not an argument
>>1046954
cause of shit like this
>>1049672
>Pic related, a Yuan Emperor on his way to sacrifice to his ancestral temple.
Northern Song dynasty
