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Without this turning into a /pol/-tier race-baiting mudslinging shitfest, can we discuss the actual evidence for the existence of gas chambers and their use in world war 2?
From what I understand, as per the current official recount, all gas chambers are purported to have existed only in eastern europe in areas conquered by the USSR. And even in these camps, according the USSR claim, the gas chambers were destroyed prior to their capture, so all existing ones today are reconstructions. The initial claims were that all concentration camps in eurpe were extermination camps, but upon the allies conquering the western half of Germany and the inspection of those camps, the claim was later adjusted to only cover the concentration camps in eastern europe.
Just let me make clear that this is not a contested claim, this is the official version of events agreed on by both sides.
Now, I know the claims. What actual evidence is there for the existence of these chambers and their use in mass extermination? I've seen some unconvincing old photographs with rusty wooden doors that look more like entrances to bathrooms or sanitary deposits rather than actual gas chambers, since a functional gas chamber would need to be airtight.
I understand there are witness testimonies, but are there documents from the nazi side explicitly detailing the use of gas chambers on a massive scale? Are there any signed orders for the use of gas chambers? Any photographs or blueprints?
Again I'm don't want any /pol/tier mudslinging, just actual informative discussion on the existing evidence.
I find its really hard to even discuss this because of the vitriol that gets tossed. Someone once called me an anti-semite because I pointed out there were no gas chambers in bergen-belsen, even though this is something universally agreed on by all historians.
Wasn't done by gas chambers. They aren't even efficient. The killing done was by ss firing squads. That's the only civilian killings ng that has sufficient evidence
>>1046242
OP, if you didn't want a shit flinging mudfest, you should have not come here. I wish this thread luck.
>>1046265
I find it so fucking funny how Nazis both will complain about how the Genocides commited by their ideological kin are made up and that the ones committed by their enemies are hushed down.
I know, it don't stop from one of them actually being right, but it's still funny to watch.
Don't know about documents, but for me the testimonies are evidence enough. What would the survivors have to gain from faking the gas chambers? We can verify that the victims definitely died in the camps, so why would they make up such an elaborate, specific story about gas chambers? Also, assuming that the gas chambers were kept fairly secret within the Nazi hierarchy, it would make sense to destroy any documents.
>>1046321
There are also people in the camps that claimed their weren't gas chambers at all though. With just as elaborate stories Why would they lie?
>>1046321
>What would a persecuted minority have to gain from making their persecutors look even worse.
The answer is a lot.
When you look at all of the claims made by Holocaust survivors, some of them are pretty crazy. Does that mean that there were no gas chambers? Honestly I don't really know what to believe anymore, but I'd like to see more evidence than just claims, because anyone can claim anything and there's a huge incentive for the Jews to make their situation look even worse than it was.
>>1046321
but the disparities in their claims are so wide.
>Masturbation torture
>different color smoke for poles and ukrainians
wtf?
>>1046242
>From what I understand, as per the current official recount, all gas chambers are purported to have existed only in eastern europe in areas conquered by the USSR
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof and Gross Rosen were also in the areas conquered by the USSR.
Hitler a good goy he dindu nuffin he just trying to get more reichsmarks for dem programs
>>1046338
>doing your own research
You didn't do any research, you read 5 "infographics" and watched a youtube video.
>>1046385
>I'm not smart enough to contribute to the thread in a meaningful way, so I'll spit out memes and make myself look like a retard
>>1046380
It was never the Germans plan to have all of these killings take place within the Reich.
All of the large death camps were built within the General Government of Poland.
The Holocaust wasn't a masterminded operation that had years of planning, the "Final Solution" developed as the Wehrmacht gobbled up new territories. The Germans originally intended to expel the Jews from Europe, to the East was one idea they danced with, even Madagascar. However, as the war situation grew worse, the Germans were faced with a crisis. Through their conquests of 1939-1941 they acquired millions of new Jews, gypsies and undesirables, along with millions of Soviet prisoners of war. The Germans realized there would be no way to not only feed these populations, but shelter them as well.
This led to mass starvation among soviet prisoners in which nearly 1% of the total population would die in these open air transit camps.
The Nazis realized that with the war the way it was, they couldn't export all these Jews either. So they interned and later killed them in Poland.
>>1046242
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html
Read this, as well the other answers.
Also, the whole conspiracy theory makes no sense, as soviet propaganda barely focused on the Holocaust. They talked about attrocities commited against the avarage Russian civilians in general, they didn't really emphasized the killing of Jews in particular (also, Russian Jews were mostly killed on spot by firing squads, not in Auschwitz). This is because they wanted to frame the war as 1. a great patriotic war, where the Soviet people repelled the invaders 2. a part of a greater class struggle, with German bourgeoisie trying to re-enslave the liberated Soviet proletariate.
So why would the Soviets go through with faking a genocide, building gas chambers, forging documents, bribing survivors to confess lies etc., then mostly ignore the whole thing.
Btw, people only started focusing on the Holocaust in the 1960's, because of Eichmann's trial and the first major works being written on the subject. Before that, it was only seen as just one episode of the Nazis cruelty, not their ultimate crime. Hell, the term Holocaust wasn't even commonly used until a documentary in 1978 popularized it. But this process only happened in the West, in the Soviet Union and the communist block, the Holocaust was rarely discussed until 1989. Probably because commies didn't really want to talk about Jews, because they wanted to create societies without religious and ethnic identities.
