So I watched the Revenant a while back ago, it was bretty gud but I felt like a couple of things were off historically.
I also realized that we Americans don't really talk about that time in our history when the movie takes place (1823). Who I felt was really out of place was Fitzgerald, his accent, being a Texan, his father being a Texas tanger etc.
So my questions for you /his/torians are:
1.When did we develop an "American" accent? Particularly the southern/midwest one you hear in the movie
2. Were there Texas rangers in the late 1700s?
3. What was going on in the US during the 1810s-1830s?
Everything in that movie was off historically btw
>>1043070
How so?
I'm genuinely interested, this is a period in US history that is barely talked about.
>>1043052
>What was going on in the US during the 1810s-1830s?
War with Britain, shitflinging between slave states and free states, saber-rattling itching to go to war with Mexico.
>>1043052
>What was going on in the US during the 1810s-1830s?
The American Market Revolution was occurring at this time. And shit ton of religion. Everywhere. Most of the country was Methodist.
>>1043276
So like a revival?
>>1043306
Indeed, American Historians refer to this time as the Second Great Awakening.
>>1043052
>1.When did we develop an "American" accent? Particularly the southern/midwest one you hear in the movie
No idea, ask a historical linguist. I assume they developed based on the various ethnic groups that settled in the regions, and shortly after their arrival and assimilation. My theory is that the Minnesotan accent originated from Scandinavians that settled the region in frontier times. Not sure where other accents came from, maybe they arose for no reason just as a regionally considered cool way to talk and distinguish themselves from others.
>2. Were there Texas rangers in the late 1700s?
The Texas Rangers were founded around 1835 along with the founding of The Republic of Texas. Their numbers were quite small at first and were devoted mainly to fighting Native Americans and Mexicans in their early years.
>3. What was going on in the US during the 1810s-1830s?
The US lost the War of 1812 to Britain, much of America was considered frontier and people started moving west to populate it. The US acquired vast sums of land from the Louisiana Purchase and purchased more from Spain and Britain.
>>1043427
>The US lost the War of 1812 to Britain,
>Britain BTFO of New Orleans
>they don't get to push their border claim on northern Maine
>they fail to create an Indian buffer state out west
>York was burned down
>le "america lost because the white house was burned" meme
>>1043459
You also forgot that American sailors were no longer being impressed, and US sovereignty was proven.
Britain BTFO
For how long were there still a sinificant French population in the US btw?
>>1043927
There has always been a presence of french in north america, even to this day.
The Fur trade continued into the rockies by 1820.
The French continued to stay even after 1763; after the French and Indian War, however their power was significantly diminished in the region.
If you look at the pic I've provided you can see how much territory France controlled, but it was almost all nearly taken after 1763.
Although many French Fur Trader men left back to France after the war, many still stayed behind with their NA wives. Look up Métis. But by 1820 nearly all the beavers had been hunted to extinction in the NE territories, which is why the Fur Trade continued into the Rockies.
>>1043105
When did Bushwhackers become a thing?
>>1044099
Bleeding Kansas (1854-61), which led into the Civil War
>>1043427
>Minnesota
>Scandanavian
Holy shit, it makes sense....
The southern drawl sounds like it has some leftover traits of the English accent, I think thats where most American accents come from.
German, Scot, Irish, English and Scandanavian accents far from home and it ended up with them developing their own unique take on the english language.
>>1045023
That's literally what happened
The south was settled by scots, scots-irish and west africans
Northeast by english, irish and french
Midwest was settled by germans, scandis plus new englanders and from there moved westwards and populated the west coast while southerners moved into texas
Of course this is not including other immigrants like spaniards, chinese, italians, greeks and poles etc etc
>>1043052
"American" accent was actually created in 1600's England.
They were saying y'all and shit.
Seriously
>>1043052
>1.When did we develop an "American" accent? Particularly the southern/midwest one you hear in the movie
The "modern" American accent developed by around 1880, but the U.S. had diverged long before then. There's probably only a couple towns in Appalachia that can properly represent what people sounded like back before then.
>2. Were there Texas rangers in the late 1700s?
No, Texas wasn't even a thing, so there could be no Texas Rangers.
>3. What was going on in the US during the 1810s-1830s
Killing lots of Indians, an economic depression, the near secession of South Carolina, a cholera epidemic, and butthurt over MUH NATIONAL BANK.
>>1045105
Makes you wonder how we'll sound like in a 100 years, I think we all know what road the southwest is heading.
I've spoken to someone from almost every part of the Union but the Maine accent by far was one of the most interesting I've ever heard.
He told me he was from a small trawling town on the northern coast, us'ta go trowlin' fer loobsta.
Think Bernie Sanders times 10.
>>1043459
New Orleans battle occurred after the war had already ended.
The US never set foot on British soil, and didn't make gains in Canada.
Historians generally say everyone won except the Indians, but Britain definitely didn't lose. Having your capital razed is a fact that can't be ignored.
>>1045132
This. Supposedly the general American English accent of today is closer to the English that was spoken in England back in the day than today's general English accent (RP) is.
>>1045164
I'm curious to see how much Spanish will impact the American accent. I live in Texas, and the typical Texas accent doesn't really sound Spanish at all. In fact, it goes to great efforts to mis-pronounce Spanish loan words i.e. "Pedernales" pronounced "purd-en-allis", "Guadalupe" pronounced "gwad-a-loop", not pronouncing j's like h's, etc.
>>1045164
There's this episode of American Dad where a future Stan travels back in time, being all cyborg like and shit. He speaks a type of American English mixed with Mexican Spanish and I believe Chinese influences. Sounds really trippy. But it might honestly not be all that far off.
Found a clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyTOPwarPG0
>>1045263
Yea its the same where I'm from, high deserts of California.
California is fucking weird, you got that really clear, almost no accent general english most people speak in SoCal, that really faggy accent from NorCal and in the Central California you've got a mix of both and a lot of Okies whose grandparents came over during the Dust Bowl. I grew up around these people and most dudes in SoCal think I'm from the midwest.
On what you said about the spanish, I think it'll only get worse as we continue to pronounce spanish words with our accent. The original meaning will probably be lost and completely foreign to native spanish speakers, America once again takes over.
>>1045240
>http://www.livescience.com/33652-americans-brits-accents.html
I've heard a few reconstructions about what Elizabethan-era English would have sounded like. It's a weird mix of Southern American and Australian.
Of course, it's a reconstruction and might be bullshit, but it's pretty interesting.
>>1045205
>The US never set foot on British soil,
And they never set out to
Ultimately Britain achieved none of their goals
While America DID achieve one of its main goals, stopping British naval impressing.
>>1045787
Here's an interesting video of an odd accent coming out of Tangier, Virginia.
Wouldn't be surprised if this is how the colonials talked in that region.
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=afd_1377039963
>>1045263
>>1045319
Spanish probably won't be that big of an impact on american accents, except maybe in the most southern areas along the border. Most latin americans who are either 2nd or 3rd generation loose any hint of an accent and completely blend into the non hispanic white demographic like charlie sheen, mitt romney and my buddy ryan. If the federal government collapses then it might give spanish the edge it needs to muscle in and become more impacting in the northern areas
>>1043427
AFAIK the US never purchased any land from Britain.
>>1043927
In the early days after the Louisiana purchase the main (white) language in that area would have been French. But I don't think that lasted for too long until the area was swamped by Anglos.
>>1046567
You can hear a hint of french in people from Louisiana, especially the more coonass motherfuckers who actually use french words every now and then
>>1043639
American sailors weren't being impressed before the war.
>>1043052
>What was going on in the US during the 1810s-1830s?
War of 1812
Jackson and the bank
Manifest destiny was in the thinking
>>1045240
RP isn't a normal accent. It's spoken by a tiny, tiny proportion of people. Even the younger royals don't speak rp anymore.
>>1047028
Where did it come from then?
I've always heard that the brits can tell what class you are by your accent.
>>1048748
RP is often believed to be based on the accents of southern england, but it actually has most in common with early modern english dialects of the east midlands. Daniel Jones and Alexander Ellis are usually given credit for 'discovering' it
>>1043052
>When did we develop an "American" accent? Particularly the southern/midwest one you hear in the movie
Not so early before the film starts. American colonists probably had some peculiar speech traits from the very beginning, as there was a whole ocean between the mother country and the colony. But distinct divergence is thought to have occurred after the independence, when British innovations were no longer mimicked by colonials to appear leet and cultured.
So "General American" is archaic in some regards, and innovative in others. "General American" dialects are also much more alike due to massive migrations from the East Coast, with speakers carrying their dialect with them. Britain didn't have mass migrations in the islands from, perhaps, the Viking invasions times, so Britts were always much more diverse for much a smaller territory then Americans.
Midwest dialect was probably influenced by Pennsylvania Dutch and Irish-Scots migrants from the East as a base, but became much more distinct way later in the XIX century due to massive German-Scandinavian migration. Minnesota is a prime example.
In 1823 I don't think local colonists yet spoke a dialect different from one spoken in Western New England, you'd need a couple more generations and European migrant waves to change it.
Can't say much about the Southern dialect though.
>>1047028
If by the younger royals, you mean Prince William and Prince Harry, they most certainly do speak with the RP accent.
>>1050033
There's a meme in linguistics that William Shakespeare spoke with a Southern-ish accent. This isn't true, but Southern accents preserve more features from Early Modern English than British English today does.
Interestingly, there was a different system of accents in the South back a few hundred years ago, different from contemporary Yankee English and even modern Southern accents. They were called High Tider or Tidewater speech, and they apparently came from Virginia and spread across the South, but disappeared in Modern Southern English.
As for differences in accent back then, there absolutely were. The more northern colonies kept in touch with Europe more, were generally wealthier and kept to the coast. In the South, people were poorer and had much less international contact (also, had more slaves, which definitely had an effect on speech (don't tell /pol/)).
>>1050033
So concerning accents, it would be more accurate if the trappers had a hint of european in the speech patterns or a more general accent like say maybe the character Captain Henry?
The southern accent I could believe as it still holds on to some speech pattern of British english, also take in account the French had been in America since the 1600s, they probably had an influence on the American accent by 1823.
>>1050307
A more general, closer to the southern dialect perhaps. A generation was born and raised that didn't quite care about British norms, I'd imagine them being more conservative, therefore even less European influence.
Again, modern British English is mostly more innovative that American English.
Still it's a movie, not a historical reconstruction. Real Hugh Glass history ended way less spectacularly and Toussaint wasn't even there to begin with. So I wouldn't be that autistic about actors' dialects of all things in the movie.
I would also totally disregard French influence by that time. You have to live close by and speak with each other for decades to leave lasting influence, I highly doubt French-American contacts were anything but sporadic encounters everywhere but Acadia and Louisiana.
>>1050440
Just trying to stir up a discussion friend, that period in American history is fascinating, how we grew and expanded at such a rapid speed and how we solidified ourselves as a nation.
Shame it isn't really discussed and seems to be pushed aside in classrooms as kind of a footnote before the Civil War
>>1046969
The occasional impressed sailor would be American, but yeah, the vast majority of impressed sailors were Brits who had deserted the Royal Navy.
>>1046412
Britain achieved its main goal in the war which was to prevent any American annexation of Canadian territory, it was a war they really didn't want to fight considering the whole Napoleon thing.
>>1050491
Because history taught in schools is just basis for ideology. And current state ideology is "muh progressive agenda, muh sacred nigger". So between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War (waged only to free blacks, no less), America might as well didn't exist.
I actually enjoyed the film, how manly it was and how little shit was given to muh feels, muh stronk womyn, muh noble injun, muh liberty and progress agenda.
Maybe some year they'll film something good about the Oregon Trail.
>>1045023
>work security
>working desk at staff entrance
>coworker with generic American name comes in wearing Minnesota college hoodie
>we small talk as she signs in, I mention the Scandi thing and Minnesota because it's literally the only thing I know about Minnesota
>she nods in recognition, and says her family is Norwegian "and my birthname is actually Jennifer Jorgenson"
>she says her name with the nordic J and in a heavy Scandi accent out of fucking nowhere
>mfw they walk among us
>>1050533
>Oregon Trail
I would love to see this made in the same vein as the Revenant.
Also an actual attempt to make a good movie about Lewis and Clark would be great
>>1050553
There's an alright National Geographic TV doc about them on Netflix. Jeff Bridges does the narration and they got guys in period dress to go tripping around the American wilderness.
>>1050546
We should just coax the Swedes and Norwegians into another great Emigration to the States considering the sorry state of their countries (inb4 /pol/)
Get some real cultural enrichment in the US
>>1043052
Weren't the Barbary Wars exactly in the early 19th Century?
One of those small gems I never knew until not so long ago
>>1050571
They were, they helped shiw the world that the US meant business and add a verse to the Marine Corps hymn.
Also it was the first time the US would have to deal with Middle Eastern people.
>>1050571
Yeah. It really amazes me that Thomas Jefferson was the first guy to send ships to shell the Mideast.
There's been some conjecture regarding whether the recent Somalian conflict should be labeled Barbary War III
>>1050571
It's an underappreciated topic in American history. The fact that America as a young nation was able to challenge the Barbary States with moderate success is really interesting
>>1050571
Here's one from the 18th century but its one if my favorite frontiersmen of a bygone era.
If they're gonna make a movie, it needs to be about Lewis Wetzel.
http://www.earlyamerica.com/early-america-review/volume-2/lewis-wetzel-dark-hero-of-the-ohio/
>>1050590
>to deal with Middle Eastern people.
>Morocco and Algiers are now the Middle East
Americans are still defeated by Geography, it seems.
>>1050844
Meant muslims, I bet there were some middle easterns there too.
>>1043052
Make what you will for the accents
http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/texan/drawl/
http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/southern/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_American_English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texan_English
>>1050900
http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/midwest/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_American_English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-Central_American_English
>>1043052
1. ????
2. While Texas was still a part of Mexico in the late 1700s and early 1800s, American "mustangers" did travel into the region to capture wild horses and bring them to markets in Kentucky. The mustang trade was as profitable as the fur trade, but was a black market of sorts.
3. The Second Great Awakening, the Market Revolution, some small slave revolts, the birth of the Whigs and the Democrats, the War of 1812, the acquisition of Florida, and the industrial motherfuckin revolution. Check out these books "The Market Revolution" and "What Hath God Wrought" for good overviews, senpai.
