What exactly is the Apple?
It wasn't an apple, for a start.
The largest corporation in the world.
>>1043014
Of course it was an apple.
>>1043009
dude, it's just a metaphor
>>1043009
>tree of the knowledge of good and evil
>what is this fruit it bears?
>>1043055
This. It literally tells you what it is in the Bible. They ate the fruit and gained the knowledge of good and evil.
More importantly, they disobeyed God because they thought they knew better. The Original Sin is a sin of pride.
>>1043059
Or they were just too naiive to know better, since they didn't have knowledge of good and evil?
Can you judge them for that?
>>1043059
knowledge of good and evil =/= original sin
i mean for fucks sake God had knowledge of good and evil. does God have original sin?
if u go back further into genesis u will find that god literally made adam fall asleep into a coma and then he had intercourse with his ribs and made a woman from having sex with his lower ribs.
Adam was the Apple in God's Eyes or whatever is what im trying 2 tell u all
>>1043059
>More importantly, they disobeyed God because they thought they knew better. The Original Sin is a sin of pride.
Sounds like a really petty and poorly planning god, if he would put temptations in plain sight and forbid them without any clear reasoning.
>>1043036
I don't like knowledge being the embodiment of sin. That's even worse then literalism.
>>1043387
I kinda like it if you see it as material knowledge as opposed to spiritual knowledge. There is no evil in God's kingdom therefore knowledge of evil is baser knowledge that conditions the soul, causing us to forget spiritual truths and binding us to this existence.
It was literally just a fruit tree. God was just testing us. There is no magical transformation described. There's no mention of reason, or sentience, or anything like that. The knowlege we gained is that it's evil to disobey God.
>>1043326
He told them they could eat literally anything else in the garden. He told them if they ate the fruit form the tree they would die. They had no reason to distrust him. It was a dick move.
>>1043430
but it's knowledge of good and evil, not knowledge of evil. are you saying God doesn't have knowledge of evil? then he isn't omniscient
>>1043009
A magic golden ball that a precursor race used as choke chains for humanity.
>>1043509
Wasn't that the plot of Assassin's Creed? The first one, I mean, before they started to milk the series dry.
>>1043520
Yes it is. Thank you for explaining the joke.
>>1043009
A very stupid metaphor
>>1043522
I only ever played the first one and got about halfway through the second one. It seems like they've gotten really shitty, have they?
>>1043530
They have.
>>1043026 Literal translation is "fruit" actually.
>>1043466
Of course God knows evil, he just isn't tempted by it for the very reason that he is omniscient and omnipotent. The reason it's Good and Evil is because it represents the free will and choice we have as humans. In fact in this context Good and Evil are one and the same as they are both expressions of material entanglement as opposed to connection with God. I can help save lives in the third world but what good does that act do for the my or their soul? The body, like avert thing material, is temporal in nature. The soul is not.
Therefore the Knowlege of Good and Evil is knowledge of the material world as opposed to knowledge of God. It's the temptation inherent in free will
It's painfully obvious when you read it that there is no such thing as origenal sin or even any sort of going on at all. This isn't part of the text.
It's also pretty obvious that the snake never lied. He told them that they would be like Gods and know good and evil. Adam and Eve learned good and evil and all futures humans do.
The key change after eating the fruit was that man became less connected with nature and become civilized. The fruit represents higher knowledge.
>>1043596
>and all future humans do
wew lad
At best, I'd say a sizeable portion of experienced adults have a vague apprehension of good and evil.
>>1043464
>He told them if they ate the fruit form the tree they would die.
That's not reasoning. And a lie to boot.
>>1043464
this doggy should burn for eternity
>>1043613
They became spiritually dead and God took the fruit of life away from them meaning that they were under material death sentence.
>>1043618
>They became spiritually dead
Nice meaningless babble.
> God took the fruit of life away from them meaning that they were under material death sentence.
Do you think there's a difference between
>if you eat this fruit, you will die of its effects
and
>if you eat this fruit, you will die I will come in and shoot you in the head
>>1043596
I agree with everything you said except the nature of the knowledge.
It can be seen as material knowledge, as you implied with 'less connected to nature' (although technically nature is material too) and also demonstrated by the apple, which fills our material need for food. However it is only 'higher' knowledge by a material standard, not a spiritual one.
This should clear up any confusion as to why apparently 'higher' knowledge is presented in a sinful light
>>1043560
It was a grapefruit.
>>1043625
>meaningless babble
As opposed to meaningful babble? It's dogma bro.
To be in a state of mortal sin is to be spiritually dead.
And God didn't say they would die from the immediate physical effects, just that they'd die that day, which they did.
>>1043638
>And God didn't say they would die from the immediate physical effects, just that they'd die that day, which they did.
Except they didn't. They were cast out. Purely on the whim of god. Don't redefine the word "die" in your vain attempts at rationalizing a bankrupt religion.
He lied about the effects of the fruit, the snake was literally right and pointed out that god was a liar.
>>1043638
>And God didn't say they would die from the immediate physical effects, just that they'd die that day, which they did.
As opposed to what? The idea of the human being living longer than a hundred years+change is not scientifically possible.
Genesis wants to imply that humans were immortal and that all animals were vegetarians until a fruit was eaten. This is high fantasy. It's also a completly unsustainable enviroment with any sort of reproduction dooming them.
>>1043648
It's mystical and supernatural.
>muh science
Fuck off.
>>1043464
They also had no reason to distrust the snake.
And unless god lied to them they were immortal and as such had infinite time to be tempted by the snake.
Unsupervised as well since god just apparently wasn't omniscient at the time because reasons.
>>1043685
>*tips empty head*
>>1043690
Sorry, there really isn't an effective counter to the fedora meme.
>>1043733
I'm sorry I couldn't outmeme you, sir. You have won this argument with the magic meme power.
>>1043662
>>muh science
>Fuck off.
Fuck off back to the cave you crawled out of and away from the computer, magic man.
I've always believed that the Knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't necessarily the giving of knowledge about what is good and what is evil, but rather it represents man choosing for himself what he thinks is good and what he thinks is evil.
Essentially it's moral relativism. It's when man chose to do evil and call it good and vice versa.
If you believe that Adam and Eve lived in naive simplicity prior to eating the fruit, it could even symbolize the giving of true free will whereby they could choose God of their own accord, but at the same time allowed the possibility of evil choices to enter the world.
>>1044134
>knowledge of
>means you get to choose
Sure. And slavery means freedom.
>>1044148
1. I never said you "get to choose". What is wrong is still wrong and what is right is still right. I said merely that it represents man choosing to call good what is evil and the other way around. Like people saying that abortion isn't murder or homosexuality isn't a sin. They can say that, but it doesn't change the nature of either of them.
2. Just because it says "Knowledge of" doesn't mean it has to represent a literal giving of knowledge. If you believe in a literal Adam and Eve, then maybe you need also a more literal definition of the events of the garden of Eden. I don't. I'm not even saying that what I think is right. I'm just offering an opinion.
>>1044134
What Scriptural evidence do you have for that?
>>1044180
I don't have anything specific. I am pretty sure I read it in either a church father or contemporary theologian. It would have been an Orthodox theologian because I read mostly Orthodox theologians.
I believe free will or an ability to choose must have been present in the beginning, but that they perhaps weren't aware of the fact that they could choose between good and evil (maybe like angels in the beginning?) until that point.
To be honest, it's just the most satisfying explanation of it that I've heard outside of Augustine's traditional understanding.
> Tree of the knowledge of good and evil
Is this a metaphor for consciousness
>>1043009
The red pill
>>1044162
Yes you did, you evasive cunt. That's what moral relativism is. You don't have to use the same exact wording to convey the same idea.
Please tell me how knowledge implies opinion. Without redefining the word to suit your preconceived notions first, because I can do that too.
>hurr durr, when jesus says "slaves obey your masters", he actually means all humanity and is referring to our senses, telling us to embrace hedonism
>>1044253
The word for knowledge represents both cognitive and experiential knowledge. With knowledge of the ability to do evil comes rationalization.
But whatever. It's just an opinion. I don't know why you're getting so mad about it. Disagree with me, but there's no reason to call me a "cunt."
>>1044266
>knowledge of the ability to do evil
Do you think eating that fruit was evil?
Serious teological question for Christians : could God beat SSJ 3 Goku without backup from angles? like 1v1 nigga gg no jeshua
>>1044302
It was disobeying a command of God, so yes, in that moment it was evil (obviously it's not an eternally immoral act because there are no fruits we cannot eat and we already have this "knowledge").
I think with the decision they realised their ability to do evil and with knowledge they understood the whole spectrum of good and evil. And with that knowledge of evil choices, they came to know other ways of behaving. And because of the sensation of doing wrong ("feeling good" in many cases even if that's only fleeting and not worth it in the long-term), perhaps rationalize what is evil as good based on experience.
Or not. It's an opinion I haven't really thought a lot about. It's not really pressing to me.
>>1043026
most likely a pomegranate
apples didn't even grow there at the time
>>1043387
it isn't
Its certainty, which according to the socratic definition of knowledge certainty is a definite aspect of it.
I think man was supposed to be filled with doubt, but god is there to make things perfect, so we just need to have faith in him that everything is going to be okay.
even if we might think otherwise.
>>1044322
How do you know where the Garden of Eden is?
>>1044321
>It was disobeying a command of God
>evil
kek
That aside, you just conceded that the tree is irrelevant, which makes me wonder what the hell it was even doing there, or why it was so important, given that "corrupting influences" like the snake dude were allowed to run around and educate A&E on good and evil anyway.
>>1044423
I said "with knowledge they understood". I was more saying that they realised they could make a choice with the snake (an evil one) but the fruit gave them the whole spectrum of good and evil.
But, yeah, what you're saying is close to what Augustine thought. So it could be that too.
>>1044237
Explain how Adam could name all the animals if he wasn't conscious, heretic.
>>1043009
It's self-consciousness. They were animals, they ate from the tree of good an evil, the achieved self consciousness, covered their sex in shame.
>>1043009
It's a lie.
The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not an apple. It was unique, and is heavily guarded right now.
The real fruit actually gave our ancestors the knowledge of good and evil, and they went from as created, in a loving dependent relationship with the living God, to separated from God (dead), trying to live life by the knowledge of good and evil.
It's the Fall of Man, where mankind went from spiritually alive to spiritually dead, by one sin. And by that sin, all mankind was condemned.
And there did not need to be any redemption. God owes us nothing.
>>1043059
Unbelief.
>>1044625
>tfw interpreting the fucking Genesis literally
>>1046057
Basically it's the story of how humans were hanging out as monkeys in the garden of Eden, like what you think when you see a dog living the dog life and feel envy, and then they became humans and everything went to shit for them.
>>1046118
I'm not saying that the Genesis is wrong. I'm saying that taking it literally is wrong, for it is a (fictional) story about something real.
>>1044423
The devil and the tree are viable alternatives in order for you to exercise your free will. You can choose not to worship God, and not to love God, because He made that possible for you.
>>1046082
The devil is a liar, and a thief, and a murderer, from the beginning.
He lied to Adam and Eve.
He stole the entire world from Adam.
He killed humanity.
>>1046087
There's no other way to understand it.
>>1046134
>fictional
Incorrect, baseless bias and opinion. Adam and Eve are your ancestors. If they're fictional, you're fictional.
>>1043076
The Jews don't consider it "original sin". Just increased responsibility. So that's one interpretation.
Also they don't think the snake was anything more than a talking snake. I believe the first reference to the snake being Satan was in Revelations.
>>1046110
You have to get bored of this shit eventually. There's no way going through the same shitposting routine everyday could keep a functional adult entertained.
>>1043009
it serves as a metaphor of what makes humans different from animals.
Basically, when we know right from wrong, in a moral sense, we should be acting accordingly. Unlike animals, who can't reason, and therefore can't do anything wrong.
But again, the bible is sort of stupid in that regard, as Eve couldn't possibly reason before taking the fruit, and therefore the act shouldn't be considered wrong.
Guess the old testament god was a bit of a twat.
>>1046156
In the Hebrew the word denotes an enchanter, a sorcerer.
>>1043074
God told them not to eat the fruit or else they would die. The serpent said that GOD didn't know what he was talking about and eating the fruit won't lead to death. Eve choose to trust the serpent over God and Adam choose to trust Eve over God; they have no excuse.
>thinking the Bible, especially Genesis, is anything other than allegory and metaphor
W E W
E W E
W E W
L A D
A D A
D A L
>>1046148
word, that idiot actually thinks women aren't made of a rib!
>>1043009
Orthodox view:
We ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We ate the fruit too soon, we were immature, we needed to walk the Garden of Eden for eons before we grew up spiritually in the presence of God to be able to take the fruit. We were expelled from the Garden not because God was mad but because He was afraid we would eat from the fruit of life and live torturous existence in eternal separation from the God. Like a children pushed away from the burning stove on which they just burned themselves.
Basically, on Earth, our godlike intellect part developed too soon without the spiritual part guiding us how to behave, resulting in us destroying each other and the world around us. Jesus came to show us the way to fix this
Something they shouldn't have done.
>>1043648
>omnipotent creator
>b-but it's not scientifically possible!!
>>1043009
Shrooms
>>1046583
Yeah I'm sure a bunch of camelfuckers who anthropomorphisized where rain came from didn't write down their oral stories of creation and didn't literally believe them.
Wew lad. I'll tip my imaginary fedora for you, because that's exactly what you're planning to retort.
>>1043009
The significance of the fall for me lies in that fact that, until they actually ate from the tree in their initial state of innocence, true knowledge of good and evil was incomprehensible.
The only choice capable of reaching such understanding would necessarily be an act that disobeyed God, that was in its very nature evil.
Being born into sin is the necessary violence which opens up the space for us to be received by Christ the redeemer. God sacrifices his son not to offer salvation, but so that in the existential crisis of his death ('Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani'), no trace of Him remains beyond his mortal life, excepting that pure goodwill of Christian spirit which faith inspires, even when we are left with no choice but a forced choice of evil.
>>1047057
Nothing in the history of human knowledge has been shown to break the laws of nature and science. A miracle is by definition something that isn't possible. You might as well postulate about how a genie works.
>>1043446
underrated
Was the snake the embodiment of satan or was it just a random snake that could talk?
>>1043446
So how is disobeying God "evil"
It sounds like that disobeying God causes him to harm people. God created disease as punishment for disobdience. In other words the people suffering from sickness right now are doing so because thousands of years ago Eve ate an apple, some of these people suffering might not even know shit about Christianity or God. Humans had to invent medicine in order to defeat the destruction God brought.
This just makes God sound like an antagonist. Obey him unconditionally or he will create suffering and distribute it randomly. He sounds like some sort of alien super villain or demon king.
>>1043009
> what is the apple?
You answered your own question there
>>1048068
The idea that it was Satan did not emerge until after The Apocalypse of John was written.
Although what's odd is that God punishes all future generations of snakes. He makes them lose their arms so they are forced to crawl on their bellies and their diet has to consist of dust.
>>1048134
Revelations wasn't interpreted until fairly recently as mentioning that Satan was the serpent in Genesis. several medieval painting depict the serpent in the garden as having a female upper body
>>1048096
He is an antagonist.
God is evil, but he's all powerful so you should listen to him.
God doesn't need to be good, and only retards spew that he is.
Taking the fruit was not an act of "evil"
Humans at the time had no knowledge of good so they could know God wanted them to be good. They also had no knowledge of evil so they could not know taking the apple would be evil.
The snake is just an animal, which knows neither good nor evil.
It is the fruit of good AND evil because you cannot have good without evil. God himself is neither good nor evil, because he is completly developed. Humans started out neither good nor evil for the opposite reason, they were undeveloped like the snake. Once they gained knowledge they gained the ability to be both good and evil. Humans are now tasked with becoming "like God" and going beyond good and evil.
>>1044311
Only if god wanted to
>>1043581
If God is never tempted, how can he be virtuous?
How can you be courageous if you never feel fear? or compassionate if you're never tempted by hate?
>>1047033
why the fuck was it so close
you dont leave the stove on, give the kid a ladder and then blame him for it
>>1044311
God is like a Platonic form. He can't be killed.
It's like asking if SSJ could beat up the number 5.
>>1048580
What if you told the kid not to touch the damn stove?
>>1048519
What a load of Gnostic bullshit.
>>1048611
Adam by the stories own fucking logic can't tell right from wrong. He can't know obeying God is good if he doesn't have knowledge of good.
To use the stove analogy it's like telling a child not to touch the stove but the child is so young it doesn't know what the words mean.
>>1049105
Gnosticism is literally the only correct form of Christianity. Enjoy sunshine brother.
>>1049169
its as simple as obeying God. a human's conception of good or evil doesn't even come into it.
>>1049223
>its as simple as obeying God
You're telling someone who doesn't have a concept of good or evil (Adam), how to be good. Reading comprehension level: low.
>>1048611
The point of telling kids not to touch the stove is so they wouldn't burn themselves. God is doing the burning in this analogy. The genesis equivalent of this is
>don't touch the stove, or if you do, when I come home I'll bash your skull in
>>1049223
How the fuck is he supposed to know obeying God is a good idea? He cannot comprehend the idea of good? He's basically an infant.
>>1043629
It was a lemon
>>1048564
Good does not feel those things. He empowers us to feel them. The son could have virtue however.
>>1049612
>Good does not feel those things.
And yet he's often described to.
>>1043618
wow god is such an asshole for literally no reason that makes sense
>>1046079
you actually believe this?
>>1046144
so the devil is god and the snake was the good guy.
>>1049200
not a christian but if i had to be one, id probably be a gnostic one.
>>1049750
I like to day dream about what would happen if the Gnostics won and their beleifs were what was seen as socially normel. I like to imagine the Southern HillBilly preachers giving sermons to Rednecks about the need to pray to Sophia. Edgy teenagers would listen to metal bands about the Demiurge. Easter, a pagan holiday would still be celebrated but we would be told finding the eggs represents "discovering the hidden Gnosis" rather than being a fertility symbol. It would just be normal to walk into a house and see they have a big golden Abraxis emblem on the wall.
>>1049808
I wonder that too, especially when im reading about it. tbqh, ever since I was a child, christianity always felt like it was telling halftruths, lies and just keeping vital information hidden for no other reason than control, under some hidden guise of the one true religion. it just feels off and wrong to me.
>>1046556
how were they supposed to know which entity was good and which one was evil?
Who /hisssss/ here?
>>1050025
/hisssss/ here.
>>1043026
It was most likely some sort of fig
>>1043009
It's the "fruit of consciousness," representing man's evolution from a non-reflective, guiltless animal state of mind.
>>1043615
If the dog can talk he can also know better.
>>1050185
The narrative of 'original sin' seems to fall apart when we bring in evolution. If it wasn't a conscious, deliberate action then we can hardly be blamed for it. God, as architect of the universe, programmed our monkey brains to develop into a 'fallen' state.
>>1050186
Children can talk, dipshit.
>>1048096
Tips fedora
>>1043009
The name of the tree in direct translation from hebrew would be "the tree of knowing good and bad", however the word used for "know" in the book is only and always used is context of sex, IE Adam "knew" Eve and so on.
In other words the tree awakened their sexual desires which is why they covered themselves up because they were embarrassed.
t. Jew
>>1043026
>spot the protestant
>>1050226
Good point
>>1050185
I agree with this. I think it's the transition from automaton-like animal thinking to self-awareness. Maybe that Julian Jaynes bicameral mind idea is the same thing.
>>1043059
>knowledge of good and evil
was a figure of speech meaning "everything"
>>1048564
God isn't virtuous, he is virtue.
God isn't good, is his goodness.
>>1050433
Good one! There's no way he's coming back from le atheist hat man may-may. Sick burn.
>>1046583
If you're just picking and choosing on what to believe you're just cosplaying.
>>1050191
Congrats on realizing evolution is a narrative contrary to the Word of God.
"original sin" = death. The spiritual death of humanity. The loss of the Breath of God that made man in God's image.
>>1050503
Jews are blinded by God and do not understand Moses and the prophets.
t. Bearer of Truth
>>1043596
>It's also pretty obvious that the snake never lied.
All he does is lie.
Everything he says is a lie.
They died, spiritually, that day. They were separated from God, Who is Life, that instant.
>>1046944
The Creator coded DNA.
I'm pretty sure He can clone a female from a rib.
>>1047033
So in other words, you have no explanation for why God said "surely the day you eat of the fruit, you will die", and they lived for centuries after that.
>>1048157
It's unmistakable. Not sure why this is even a topic of debate:
Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
>>1049200
It's literally satan worship.
>>1049750
If you were going to be a black man, would you be a yellow black man?
>>1051203
you have absolutely no proof that it is the truth other than belief which is not measurable, except by maybe how fanatic you are.
and im pretty sure i would rather have someone who told me the truth instead of punishing his "children" for shit that he was vague as shit about in the first place and put within the reach for absolutely fuck all reason at all.
your god is just an asshole and there's no way around it.
>>1051303
I do, though, and you obviously have no way of knowing what I know, so your opinion is kind of baseless.
You're basically saying either there is no truth, or "you can't know what I don't know".
>>1051303
Your god wants you to join him in a burning lake of sulfur forever.
Mine is making me a mansion on a floating city.
I suggest reassessing your options.
>>1044374
Because the book of Mormon told me it was in America
>>1051327
I never said I had a god.
>>1051319
again, you have no proof other than what you believe. believing =/= knowing.
>>1051445
You were born to one, and he desires your destruction.
God, on the other hand, is holding open adoptions.
your call
>>1051448
I do, actually. A universe full.
But you don't see evidence properly; you only see what you want your bias to support.
>>1051448
Believing = knowing.
Trough believing the realities of God come in contact with you.
It's only way a mortal can approach God.
>>1051463
again you have no evidence it was your god that created it. for all you know it could have been Jupiter.
>>1050186
you can talk and you should know better than to post retarded statements online
>>1043026
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
Is there a book that analize those stories of the Bible, that helps you think about those. I mean im not atheist, but i dont want to just read as "a dude who walks on water xD" im more with this guy >>1043036.
>>1051472
Knowledge is a subset of belief, and saying you "know" something doesn't instantly make it true.
The fruit is sex. Adam and Eve is a metaphor for adolescence.
>>1048096
canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook
>>1043009
Degeneracy
>>1050509
>>1053899
so what does the snake losing its legs represent metaphorically?
>>1054929
the book of job is shit
>>1044374
the geography in Genesis is roughly the same as mesopotamia. both the tigris and euphrates ran through it
>>1051190
no no, the serpent it's refering to is leviathan. leviathan is way too big to be in the garden and was a sea monster
