Now that we're going to have Tubman on the twenty I thought it would be timely to go over the history of the underground railroad.
What was the success rate of the average slave that tried to escape via the railroad? I was always told in history classes that the majority of slaves were caught and made an example of, but if 100,000 really did escape how many were caught?
Did any presidents or notable political officials like Calhoun or Clay mention the railroad?
Is Tubman's legacy warranted or was it just memed up over time because she was a black women first and a pioneer conductor of the railroad second?
And Polacks, calm yourselves. While I don't share your seething rage for basketball Americans I do believe that from an historical achievement standpoint this was a lousy choice considering how superior Fredrick Douglas was and cosmetically unappealing this new twenty will be.
>>1015997
They just picked her because she's the only african american woman anybody ever heard about in the school books.
I am interested about the success rate, but i think that figure would be really elusive. It would be hard to measure successfully escaped slaves, they'd obviously be living off the books.
>>1016044
I do agree that they picked Tubs because it was an easy way to kill two representation birds with one stone, but I disagree over her relevancy. Rosa Parks is touted as the most important female figure of the civil rights movement and personally I would have preferred that she got the spot.
why would you ask /his/ instead of actively researching the topic? you could easily research her accomplishments.
>>1016109
Because these people don't bother reading or doing research on their own and prefer to be told because they're idiots.
>>1016066
>Rosa Parks is touted as the most important female figure of the civil rights movement
You're right, and i actually meant to mention that in my post before i forgot. But i think her face is too recent, it would be kind of strange to see it contrast with a bunch of dudes from the 18th and 19th centuries.
It's gonna look weird regardless, but i think putting jacksons face on federal reserve notes is kind of a disgrace to his legacy anyways.
It ain't her fault she wasn't exactly easy on the eyes.
While in the grand scheme of things she's not too significant she was one admirably damn hard bitch. Could do far worse.
As far as catch rates go, you have to keep in mind most escapees just picked a direction and booked it. The Railroad was as successful as it was because it was an organized series of safehouses and people with plans and knowledge of the lay of the land.
I am from Georgia. I grew up in a house that had an underground little bunker you could only get in through a hole in the back of a closet. You had to squeeze through. I used it as a little club house as it was fairly large inside.
My mom said our house was on the underground railroad and slaves would hide out in there before getting picked up by an abolitionist mailman who drove past the house at the time.
I learned a great deal about slavery in school. Probably a more accurate and unbiased look at slavery and reconstruction South than most people ever got.
The Underground Railroad was operated by many powerful people. Government officials, northern Church leaders, rival businessmen to attack competitors assets and to destabilize the south. A few do it because it was the right thing to do, but many did it because of a political means.
Remember: Harriet Tubman was a slave from a plantation in the North competing with plantation in the South. Because of the large amount of resources put into the Underground Railroad, the success was incredibly high. If you could get a ride, you could be up in free territory within a week or less. Those who got caught, got caught because they tried to go on their own and on foot without any help.
Harriet Tubman did not do much. She would bring runaway slaves to white men who would give them a free ride up North. She was also a scapegoat. Her face was on all the wanted posters so if she got caught, the real perpetrators would be safe.
I am not supporting slavery, I am just dispelling a lie
>>1016167
Wow, she managed to rile up a mob, point in a direction, and say "charge" or "attack".
Guess that means she accomplished more than a president of the United States, huh?
>>1016177
sheeeit, more than i'd do
>Hamilton gets to stay because some shitty play made him relevant recently
Why not just put fucking Burr on the $10 bill, he actually won.
>>1016177
The issue here isn't what Tubman accomplished, it's about what Jackson did accomplish (Injun relocation, slaveholding). Like it or not, most people don't see Old Hickory in a positive light these days.
>>1016195
I suppose, but I'm not one to prescribe modern morality onto actions of the past and then subsequently judge the person or people in question based on them.
Jackson was a product of his time. I harbor no ill will towards the man, he did what he felt he needed to do to ensure the prosperity of the United States and frankly? Despite all the shit he gets he was still one hell of a president. He accomplished a lot.
The guy paid off the entire U.S. national debt at the time. Entered office with about $58 million in debt, six years later the debt was 0. There were later issues with the economy but that was largely due to a bubble that was going to pop at some time or another any way, not Jackson's explicit doing.
>>1016225
While I do agree to an extent that Jackson was a product of his time, and I do not wish to ignore his military and presidential achievements, even his contemporaries though some of his actions were extreme (https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/jackson-lincoln/resources/davy-crockett-removal-cherokees-1834).
>>1016103
>There were thousands of people who supported a particular individual who called for Tubman's face on the 20$
This is essentially meaningless since there is an equally high number of people that would have liked to see Elanor Roosevelt, Susan B Anthony or another female historic figure. There were only about 150,000 or so vote in some little publicized straw poll for Tubman to get the top spot. Hardly an earth shattering majority.
>Tubman also led the Raid at Combahee Ferry freeing upwards of 600-700 enslaved people.
This hardly seems like an achievement worthy of immortalizing someone on currency. Tubman's achievements seem more like signs of resistance and struggle rather than successfully changing the livelihood of freed-men. When I compare her to Fredrick Douglas, W. E. B. Dubious, Booker T. Washington, or the civil rights leaders of the 1960s Tubman's escapades, while still admirable and inspirational, seem less worthy of note because they didn't really change anything.
>>1016147
>rival businessmen to attack competitors assets and to destabilize the south.
Thanks for the insight, this in particular is eye opening and reminded me of the context of the pre-civil war era United States and just how vicious divide between the north and south was.
>>1016195
>not liking President Action Jackson
>>1016279
>>1016177
She was an illiterate, enslaved, disabled black woman who made dozens of trips to the south using her knowledge and skills to move through tens of thousands of homes vested in her death and what she stood for.
She led troops and rallied enslaved people to grab their own freedom and represents the most underclass people in the United States at the time.
She is much more relevant than the men who come from wealth and never had the kinds of obstacles Tubman faced and overcame.
>>1016329
>She is much more relevant than the men who come from wealth and never had the kinds of obstacles Tubman faced and overcame.
Now that's simply not true.
Wouldn't it make more sense to put a native on the $20 bill? Especially if we're looking to redress Andrew Jackson's wrongdoings.
>>1016329
>she is more relevant that Presidents of the United States of America because she had a hard life
>mfw
Literally what?
Shit man, I guess we better get to work on those Brendan Fraser $50 bills because that fucker has had one hell of a time lately.
I genuinely hope you aren't American in that you are so willing to disgrace and dishonor the people who spent the majority of their lives trying to create an environment in which you could live and shitpost in freedom.
>>1016351
No, again. As a non-white American male what you are saying is a categorically false statement with absolutely no validity or credence in the real world.
I get you are trying to rile people because this is 4chan, but come on now. Your posts are literally
>lol yee boi lets stick it whitey, it's our time now!
Put some effort in, this bait isn't the quality I hoped for.
>>1016347
Sacagewea got her coin, so I guess we'll have to wait a bit more for a native leader or figure. Though it'll be hard since most were against American expansionism.
>>1016329
>>1016331
I also disagree that she could be considered more relevant than the financiers and organizers of the Underground Railroad from an accomplishment standpoint.
>>1016147
>She was also a scapegoat. Her face was on all the wanted posters so if she got caught, the real perpetrators would be safe.
I feel like this captures the essence of why she was chosen to be the face of the new twenty. Tubman obviously did not organize, manage, or finance the majority of the escape operations but she did overcome immense odds and is a symbol of the gritty resistance that hundreds of thousands of enslaved people went through to find freedom. I mean just look at her fucking face; you can tell this is a person that lived a life so brutal that the hideousness what she saw carved equally disgusting features upon her. I have yet to see a Harriet Tubman portrait or photo with her authentically smiling, this is most likely because she lost the ability to do so after watching slaves get recaptured through fugitive slave laws or botched escapes.
>>1016363
The financiers were everyday people who had the means to support people like Tubman who went behind "enemy lines" to gather enslaved people seeking freedom for themselves.
>>1016362
>You can't refute the will of the people most of whom are women and/or people of color.
Dude stop, I'm dying. My sides can't take this kind of abuse. Holy fuck, I needed a good laugh today. Work has been piling up lately, it is nice to know people on 4chan will still make an effort to take the piss out of something and contribute a chuckle-worthy post on occasion.
Keep doing you, Kunta Kinte. Keep doing you.
>>1016351
Your ideology is almost exclusive to western academia, which is a very upper middle class institution, and the only people who think like you are wealthy and whitewashed by western academia.
That said, tubman was a badass, and i think she's a good choice, but this "fuck privileged white men, muh power structures muh systemic oppression UP THE WoC!!!!!" nonsense needs to go. We all know you're probably a 1/16th native american girl from connecticut.
>>1016362
>You can't refute the will of the people most of whom women and or of color. Though by all means ignore the reality of the situation.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/05/12/harriet-tubman-20-dollar-bill/27173135/
It was a hashtag based straw poll vote that only received wide press attention after the votes had been counted. I am certain that had even a third of the American public been aware of such a vote or a truly advertised and organized democratic either Rosa Parks or Elanor Roosevelt would have won, or maybe Susan B. Anthony.
>>1016351
Nigger I'm a half asian.
Not everyone is either WASP or a negro.
>>1016362
>The wonderful thing about all of this is her relevancy was proven when people advocated for her and she actually got it.
It really is wonderful. I love how all the opressed X of color are literally conditioned to petition for pure tokenism, and will be overjoyed with their token gains.
>>1016392
>I am certain that had even a third of the American public been aware of such a vote or a truly advertised and organized democratic [election had been conducted]*, either Rosa Parks or Elanor Roosevelt would have won, or maybe Susan B. Anthony.
>>1016384
You can think of this as a big lol but the beauty in all this is the 20$ bill will have a disabled black enslaved woman because minorities wanted her on there.
>>1016391
False. Subaltern Studies was formed in India and later centered around the Americas but is common discourse in most academic settings in the Global South.
I can't blame you for not knowing though.
>>1016392
>>1016406
But you don't know because even after the poll no large group of people supported another candidate.
>>1016393
IDC
>>1016405
Funny enough I'm an anti-capitalist who by and large dislike the idea of a woman bought and sold using currency is now on it but I find people wanting to disrupt our worship of Nationalists/Expansionists/Imperialists to be great too. The radicalisation of American people is a slow one but little things like this are signs of said change.
>>1016415
It is and your post shows it
That faggot is obviously baiting for attention
>>1016432
The funny thing is I'm not really baiting.
>>1016442
Oh, you said it so must be true. My apologies.
>>1016430
>Subaltern Studies was formed in India and later centered around the Americas
Marx and Gramsci were the whitest, bougiest around, and they are your philosophical foundation. You've been whitewashed and i am pretty sick of your neocolonial ideology already.
>>1016448
Yes it is actually true that anon is thankful that there will be less white people in the future and the reality is that this view is relatively common which is why white people need to be vocal about defending our racial interests because many are actively cheering for our destruction.
>>1016529
Some dumb asshole lazily b8ing isn't an excuse to start spewing your dumb shit, /pol/.
>>1016479
The basis of subaltern studies are of those white radicals however the studies, books and research is based squarely on South Asian, Latino and Black people's.
If that's white washing then everybody that stems from Judaism and Christianity is a Semiticist Washing. You're reaching, funny but not based on reality.
>>1016529
You can call it cheering but really I see it as a swansong of the global community. Europeans are doing it by themselves quite well.
>>1016548
And as we all know, anonymous posters on Cantonese Rain-Dance appreciation message boards are completely trustworthy.
>>1016548
>I'm not baiting! Keep taking me seriously so I can make you angry on an anonymous image board
Sure thing
>>1016430
>Subaltern Studies was formed in India
Indian academy is extremely westernized, they absolutely love Western ideologies like Marxism and hate hate hate true Indian philosophy and ideology such as Hindutva.
>>1016566
Okay and the basis of most European notions and ideas are rooted in Middle Eastern morality and logic.
>>1016555
>Politically the American Negro is nothing but a football and the white liberals control this mentally dead ball through tricks of tokenism: false promises of integration and civil rights. In this profitable game of deceiving and exploiting the political politician of the American Negro, those white liberals have the willing cooperation of the Negro civil rights leaders. These “leaders” sell out our people for just a few crumbs of token recognition and token gains. These “leaders” are satisfied with token victories and token progress because they themselves are nothing but token leaders.
Malcolm X
You're controlled opposition m80.
Everyone who considers themself to be a person of color is so whitewashed that their opinions as minorities should be completely disregarded. The term PoC is just an academia meme to manufacture solidarity between the white woman's pets.
>>1016430
>But you don't know because even after the poll no large group of people supported another candidate.
http://www.womenon20s.org/results
Here's an example of how close the voting results were, furthermore I believe there are two primary reasons why there isn't a larger movement for a different woman on the twenty: most people still want Action Jackson to maintain his position despite his hatred of central banks and paper money, and people opposed to this are generally afraid to call out how disgusting Tubs looks for fear of being called racist and attacked by an online witch mob. I suppose a close third is that most women and minorities are just happy to have a female of color on legal tender and are generally appeased by the treasury department's decision despite Tubs perhaps not being their first choice.
>>1016580
True, which is why they were so imperial.
Marx was a lot more recent than Abrahamic religion though, so his effect on postcolonial studies and critical race theory are larger.
>>1016044
>they'd obviously be living off the books
Ones who made it to Canada probably didn't see any reason to hide being an escaped slave. Hell, they might use it as proof of patriotism.
>US didn't do no good by me
>>1016585
So is quoting Malcolm X out of context supposed to stop me in my tracks?
He is talking about the blue blood black leadership who literally shared blood with many politicians throughout the US and who were mobilizing black people for various moments by sheer volume. However the radicalization of minorities in the United States is happening and this Harriet Tubman/Marian Anderson/MLK inclusion in currency is showing once again a disdain and disillusionment with white male leadership and history.
The idea that their can be a separatists black capitalist nation within a nation as X advocated for is an impossibility and it's silly. I find it much better to gather the minority majority of the nation together over small things and slowly build for bigger and more institutional change.
Nice try though
>>1016615
>Ones who made it to Canada probably didn't see any reason to hide being an escaped slave. Hell, they might use it as proof of patriotism
>canada din du nuffin
please, we're just as niggerhatin' as our southern neighbours.
we just cover it up by being less relevant.
>>1016623
>However the radicalization of minorities in the United States is happening and this Harriet Tubman/Marian Anderson/MLK inclusion in currency is showing once again a disdain and disillusionment with white male leadership and history.
I think the black president was a better signal of that anon, old news desu.
But lets try and get this thread back on track and out of the dredges of shitposting. If possible let's focus on the political reactions to the railroad, or maybe some idea of how successful the underground railroad was generally?
>>1016633
I see where you're going with this but demonizing white men won't get you very far in what is essentially a vote that consisted of a fraction of the population, 352,431 to be precise.
>>1016623
>I find it much better to gather the minority majority of the nation together over small things and slowly build for bigger and more institutional change.
As a minority i honestly think you cucks are fucking disgusting. Your head is so full of Marxist gibberish and Alinsky propaganda that you can't see the forest from the trees. You're making mountains out of molehills and whitewashing entire groups in your wild mission to attack a perceived hegemon. These "small things" have become mansplaining, microaggression, and poop swastikas because you're so desperate to find oppression wherever you look.
You know someone has been fully westernized when they hate white people more than other minorities. You're trying to use them as pawns for an agenda that you were force-fed in university (a bourgeois, white, capitalist, racist institution).
>>1016664
>You know someone has been fully westernized when they hate white people more than other minorities. You're trying to use them as pawns for an agenda that you were force-fed in university (a bourgeois, white, capitalist, racist institution).
Wew, lad.
I think I get what you're saying, despite the apparent paradox of complaining about perceived hegemony by an imaginary consolidation of powers whilst maintaining the institutional racism of the "white, bourgeois [umm, that's a Marxist concept, btw] University" [so, the "University" exists as a consolidated force, but white privilege doesn't?]
Basically, I'm still confused, but I think I see what you're saying, and your disgust is well-founded.
My solution is this: Everybody just start wearing fucking burqas. Like all the time, everywhere, and with full hijabs and mirrored sunglasses so you can't even tell the color of a person's eyes.
It's the best we're gonna get until technology allows us to roam around in complete robot shells, so I say just put on them gowns and let's finally be post-racial!
Because educating people to undo the dangerous narrative of race as a byproduct of genetics takes for-fucking-evvvaar.
>>1016664
I never went to university, I've been doing political actions and living in alternative communities since I was a teen.
I'd put all my identifiers on here but like to save the trouble know I'm a "ultra minority" lots of intersection, very much interested in dismantling the system. If white folks want to be a part of that dismantling all the better so I don't mind their particular brands of leftism.
>>1016655
Obama would not have been elected if he was raised with his African father, was African American or was not raised by a white woman.
Quite frankly it wasn't radical, though a symbol nevertheless.
>>1016816
well duh, you can't be a foreigner and be president.
>>1016823
I'm saying if he wasn't "the safe mulatto" surrounded by non-black people he would not have been elected. He was the most palatable form of blackness to a mostly unradical left voting base.
>>1016816
Are you a black LGBTQ+ muslim?
The fuck does "ultraminority" even mean
>>1015997
Oh shit, I better stop spending my Jacksons.
>>1016816
>I attempt to be the greatest at the oppression olympics as possible
Top zozzle.
Kys my man.
>>1017091
>The interaction of the myth, memory, and history of Harriet Tubman is not unlike that of any American icon, be it George Washington or Abraham Lincoln,” says Sernett, who retired from full-time teaching in 2005. “One of the purposes of myth is to give status to the myth tellers within their own social environment. Harriet Tubman was very useful as different segments of American society struggled to achieve parity at the table. Whether it’s women or African Americans or the disabled, it’s amazing the variety of different groups who have adopted her as their symbol.
However there are sources she was there, that's the reason why she got a pension from the US government.
>>1017150
What
It's saying she was unjustly used as a tool.
>>1017182
It is noted that people created the myth around here, even while involved, and many people receive payment from the USFG, doesn't mean shit especially during interum years.
>Instead of reading up on her and the Underground railroad I'm gonna to the lazy course of action and ask people.
>>1016329
>never had the kinds of obstacles Tubman faced and overcame
Booker was a former slave. He bought his freedom and attained an education, a major accomplishment. Then, he went on to teach other blacks and wrote books, and did a whole bunch of shit which fueled the Civil Rights movement. Not to mention the fact that he received applause and general approval from both blacks and whites and was pretty much universally liked.
>>1016225
I think its reasonable to say that Indian removal was as clearly bad then as it would be now. Especially when the removal killed about a third of the people being removed.
Additionally, other people at the time saw it as wrong so its clearly not a cut and dry case of changing moral perspective.
>>1017432
His Compromise was about in the face to the Black population who sought an existence outside of pandering to White fear.
He wasn't terrible, I have family who went to Tuskegee but I found him to be without much spin. Dubois was necessary and radical, a true visionary.
If you had to put an American female on the currency I legit don't think you could do better. Tubman was pretty badass; to be a black woman in her time and place and to make such a name was really something.
>>1016615
>Ones who made it to Canada probably didn't see any reason to hide being an escaped slave.
Don't know how common it was (seems extremely risky), but apparently some slave catchers would operate 'undercover' in Canada. So that's a reason to keep mum.
>>1016306
The divide was huge. The North and South were more like competing companies than different regions. We remember common Southern folks hating the North. They had their prejudices of course, but remember the average fellow both up North and down South lived similar lifestyles and had similar opinions.
The North vs. South animosity was originally politician and businessman vs. politician and businessman. People attribute the civil war to the South's secession when in reality it was more of a split between both regions.
Other than abolishing a human rights violation, the main goal of the emancipation proclamation was to remove a stain and a cause of instability among American markets, which were not secluded to agricultural industries.
The political and economic pressure each side was putting on each other made division inevitable. The only way to bring the nation back together was to economically cripple the South leaving their survival dependent on the North so that the industry of the South would eventually grow into the industry of the rest of the nation, interlocking the two, preventing a split from ever occurring again.
In retrospect probably the biggest failure of the underground railroad is that most of the ex-slaves moved back south (from the Northern states and Canada) after the Civil War, and so were beaten down by jim crow where they could have done much better if they'd kept out of the South permanently.
Before the 'great migration' back north in the 20th century, the blacks who had remained in the northern states and Canada were extremely well integrated and successful. Among other things they spoke 'proper English' i.e. the same English as their white neighbours, and generally weren't discriminated against. Northern black history and culture has been mostly submerged since by more recent arrivals from the South, but for a while it offered some real hope.
>>1016845
>The fuck does "ultraminority" even mean
You know how supersaiyan 2 is beyond supersaiyan? Well an ultraminority goes beyond a superminority.
pic related is a better candidate desu
>>1016642
Please, Toronto is very Afro-centric. They're in love with west indian culture. My parents being West-Indian themselves I just find it uncivilized and cringy.
>>1022139
>West-Indies
>culture
t. Sudaca
>>1016044
She's also the only abolitionist half as hardcore as Jackson, and he hated the national bank.
>>1022086
I hope they make her a dollar bill.
Any other ladies /his/ would be open to seeing on currency?
>>1016044
She was pretty badass, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_at_Combahee_Ferry
>>1016279
That's my issue. She did good but there are other abolitionist or black figures in history who did better; Frederick Douglass went from a slave who taught himself how to read and write to one of the leading abolitionists of his time, a firm believer in racial equality and harmony (and not just WHITES IS EVUL), women's suffrage and even fulfilled some diplomatic roles and was a firm believer in the enlightened liberal ideals of the Constitution.
I would be 100% fine with Douglass being on the money. A great figure and a great American. That's the problem with putting any woman on the money; some of done great things but never as great as the men of the country for reasons of, well, history being male dominated.
>>1016103
>we wuz warrior womins n shiet
Sure to get /pol/ mad
It feels like an OCD thing hahaha
Like, "yeah we could use Douglas or King or someone who deserves it but shit, Tubman covers the lack of females too!"
I worked at a store, when people would bring in ripped dollars I would tape them up for them and take it for whatever they were buying. Id always make the joke about doing surgery on whoever was on the bill.
You have no idea how many people dont know who Hamilton or Jackson are. Its truely revolting.
But the point being is this: absolutely no one gives a fuck whose on the dollar bill. Its so mundane and everyday no one notices. Its like asking why people always choose the same colors to paint houses, even people that would like to see buildings painted in vibrant colors is actually gonna put in he effort to do so because theres no reason to do so. Same deal, whoever cared enough to put forward this idea originally is probably mental
Tubman seems to be the embodiment of the Catholic virtue of meekness.
Before I elaborate, I want to see how many of you will misunderstand me.
>>1016185
>Replacing the man who literally created the US treasury and the most important figure in American currency
Are you fucking retarded or what
