Hello /his/.
I was just wondering what people here thought about the connection between ancient Assyrians and modern-day Assyrians.
Is there there any connection between them? I'm a modern-day Assyrian, and although I believe there is a connection, I recognize the fact that there's a big gap between the Neo-Assyrian Empire and Syriac Christianity.
Quick little facts:
>Modern-day Assyrians speak Syriac, which is an Aramaic language. This falls in line with the historical record since the Neo-Assyrian Empire adopted Aramaic as the official language of the empire. Modern Syriac still retains Akkadian loanwords and grammatical structure.
>Modern-day Assyrians trace their homelands to upper Mesopotamia and the surrounding regions, which was the Assyrian heartland.
>Modern-day Assyrians were referred to as Assyrians by their neighboring populations, such as the Armenians.
>A lot of Assyrian symbolism is present in our old churches, such as our old sun god Shamash.
Also, general Assyria thread.
>>1012537
LIES, KURDISH EMPIRE WAS THE FIRST. LEARN THE REAL HISTORY @ koolkurdiklub.com
>>1012537
I don't believe there's been any serious academic study that definitely links the two. What we have are mostly 19th century Romanticists who, like all others, liked to make these connections, and the modern day historians who either defend them with very little evidence or reject them because of the lack of definitive evidence.
>>1012537
Terrorists then, terrorists now.
>>1012537
"Assyrians" from Tur Abdin are descended from Arameans.
"Assyrians" from Mosul and the surrounding area are descended from Assyrians.
Much like "Chaldean" before it, the term "Assyrian" generally denotes a collective group of pre-Arab conquest Northeast Semitic ethnc groups that are united by the Aramaic language and Syriac Christian religion.
Whether or not one is descended from Assyrians or Arameans is also kind of pointless to discern because Arameans were the Hungarans to Assyria's Austria, and the whole point of the exercise is to go WE WUZ SHARRÛ N SHIET anyway.
>>1016017
Who do they descend from if not the Assyrians?
>>1016156
Arabs
>>1016156
Everybody who ever lived in the region including Assyrians to some degree.
>>1016163
>>1016171
Modern Assyrians are racially pure. They'd have African blood if they were mixed with Arabs
>>1016398
>Modern Assyrians are racially pure.
That's a stretch.
>>1016023
Syriacs are Christian retard.
>>1016163
Arabs have African DNA from the slave trade. Assyrians are closer to Armenians, which makes sense considering many lived in Northern Iraq and Southern Turkey.
>>1017869
How are Armenians remotely close to Assyrians? They traditionally have always been around Northern Anatolia and the Caucasus areas, never really in the Levant or Mesopotamia.
>>1017906
Assyrians aren't from the Levant. Assyrians moved up into the mountains of northern Iraq and Southern Turkey later but they were always in Northern Mesopotamia. Look at the DNA.
>>1017916
I didn't ask about Assyrians, I'm talking about the Armenians.
>>1017906
Assyrians are from Upper Mesopotamia. Pretty darn close to Western Armenia if you ask me
>>1017932
Urartu empire a bordered Assyrua and since Syriacs only marry Christians, Armenian-Assyrian marriages were quite popular.
>>1012537
The modern assyrian state is called Islamic State of Iraq and Syria.
>>1018069
Assyrians are a minority there.
Isn't the modern Assyrians is a religious community, not an ethnic one? Are there Muslim Assyrians?
>Modern-day Assyrians speak Syriac, which is an Aramaic language. This falls in line with the historical record since the Neo-Assyrian Empire adopted Aramaic as the official language of the empire. Modern Syriac still retains Akkadian loanwords and grammatical structure.
Yet Ancient Assyrians didn't speak Aramaic themselves, they used it for govern conquered peoples. So did Persians, and eventually the whole region from Egypt to Armenia and Elam spoke Aramaic, there nothing specifically about Assyrians here.
>Modern-day Assyrians trace their homelands to upper Mesopotamia and the surrounding regions, which was the Assyrian heartland.
Yet the region was invaded and conquered many times since then resulting in inevitable population movements. By the time modern Assyrians "migrated" out of the region there were no ancient Assyrian identity left there, I guess.
>Modern-day Assyrians were referred to as Assyrians by their neighboring populations, such as the Armenians.
And Greeks were referred to as Romans in the Middle Ages by their neighboring populations, nothing special here.
>A lot of Assyrian symbolism is present in our old churches, such as our old sun god Shamash.
Well, this is an interesting point.
I personally think modern Assyrians are descendants of a large population of Syrian-speaking Christians in the region who didn't converted to Islam in 7-10 centuries AD, without any links to ancient Assyrians from 7 century BC.
>>1018107
>Are there Muslim Assyrians?
There are, if we define it in any way other than religion. It just so happens that we choose to define "assyrian" as a christian semite from Iraq.
>>1018114
Do they consider themselves Assyrians? Do they speak Arabic or Syrian? How is Muslim Assyrian different from an Arab from the same region?
>>1018122
Muslims arent nationalistic the way christians are. If you are a muslim, you consider yourself muslim.
Islam dictates that all muslims are part of one single state, the muslim state, or caliphate. It just so happens that since the Ottoman empire died, we haven't had a caliphate.
>>1018131
So, my point is, modern Assyrians aren't that different from Muslims around them, except for religion they practice. Both groups are descendants of per-muslim population of the region, there is nothing special about the modern Assyrians that links them to the ancient Assyrians. The same thing with Copt in Egypt.
>>1018131
You have on right now ;)
I'm a Chaldean and I've always been confused because my parents never gave me a straight answer. Is there any real difference between a "Chaldean" and an "Assyrian" and if so what?
>>1018151
Look at modern Bulgarians. They have nothing to do with the old time Bulgarians.
Bulgarians used to be Tengrist, now they are Christian.
They used to be nomadic, now they are settled.
They used to speak Turkic, now they speak Slavic.
They used to write in Hunnic, now they write in Cyrillic.
They used to have asian facial features, black hair, lean short bodies, now they are typical southern Europeans.
Basically they are completely different people in every single perceivable way, yet they kept the name, and continue to call themselves Bulgarians, and nobody doubts that or gives them shit for it.
Old Bulgarians were even as bad as old Assyrians, pillage&rape types that took Roman land and kept demanding tribute every year. It is a very good comparison, I feel.
It doesn't matter of the modern Assyrians have anything to do with the old ones, people are allowed to choose what nationality they belong to these days. Nicolai Tesla was born in Austria, educated in Austria, lived in the USA, worked in the USA, died in the USA, only ever went to Serbia twice, and the first time he was arrested and ran away, the second he got sick and had to leave to treat himself. He probably spend more time in the ocean than in Serbia. Yet he is a famous Serbian nationalist. This is allowed and accepted. If someone says they are Assyrian, you really have no argument against that. It is a subjective, personal choice and a description of one's self.
>>1018155
Saudi Arabia is the only state that can start a caliphate, and if anything ISIL is in the way.
Basically the Jordan king has to die without a hair, somehow get absorbed into Saudi Arabia, somehow UK and USA not acting, and then a caliph declared, Islam reformed to meed the demands of a modern world, and all Muslim majority states invited one by one to join, or join by popular revolution.
Obviously Russia and USA have to be convinced that this is a good idea, so that they will stay out of it, and keep Turkey and Iran out of it. These two big states that have their own agendas will be the hardest to convince to join the caliphate.
Also consider that if such a caliphate were to be created, it would be the biggest state on the planet, with the largest potential for power. So I don't think its existence will be allowed by the current world leaders. It has to be sneaked in during a time of conflict elsewhere, maybe Japanese nationalism or European infighting.
>>1018170
I have nothing against modern Assyrians calling themselves Assyrians, my only objection is about their supposed link to the ancient Assyrians. And no one really thinks modern Bulgarians are descendants of Bulgars in any significant way, just like no one thinks that Russians are Norse or that French are Germanic.
>>1018185
This sounds like a very convoluted and complicated process. Wouldn't it work as a kind of popular revolution with a charismatic Muslim leader?
You're certainly right that the powers that be wouldn't allow it to happen, even in muslim countries (Egypt for example), but does it really have to be a political entity WITH control over mecca?
>>1018192
A caliph must be from Muhammad's tribe, must be part of the majority religious movement in his state, the state must be majority Muslim, and he has to be elected by all Muslims in that state.
Then he can become caliph, and continue to be one until he is seen to sin in any way, or until someone else is voted by the majority to replace him if he falls out of favor (but this really requires a sin, so its a non-issue).
Saudi Arabia's leaders are from the wrong tribe, and sect, for this to work for them now.
However Islam really needs a caliph to reform it, because it is terribly outdated, and not compatible with the modern world. New religious laws are needed, new interpretation of the holy scriptures, and new Sharia law. I think the western powers would do well to push for the election of a caliph and support him at least initially, so Islam can be reformed and updated, else they will continue to see terrorist groups in their countries.
>>1018170
Show me a people who remained culturally and genetically unchanged over 1500 years.
>>1018201
Well. Maybe? You yourself realize how impossible this sounds though, right? It'd have to be an extremely popular person both in the west and the muslim community, he'd have to please both hardliners and reformers. Not at all realistic. Maybe it's the caliphate system that needs an overhaul, but I guess a Caliph would be needed to do that an hence...
What do you think about the Islamic schools of Jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki and so on)? Could they ever initiate this kind of change? Do they have any power?
>>1018205
Basques
Saami
Berbers
>>1018205
The Chinese didn't change their religion, alphabet, language and genetic makeup for a longer period of time. The Arabs didn't either.
Also the 1500 number is very arbitrary. Most English people wouldn't say the English state started with the Picts and Celts. Most Germans wouldn't say the German state started with the Teutonic tribes.
Similarly, Bulgaria started in the late 19th century. Before that it was another entity, a very different state of a very different people, just located in a similar place.
>>1018201
Oh yeah. What about the Ahmadiyya Caliphate?
>>1018219
This is a non-political caliphate. It isn't tied to a state, which is a requirement in the Holy texts.
You need an Islamic state. If there are Muslims living in states other than the Islamic state, they need to be "liberated".
Currently, from a religious point of view, the Islamic state is in a civil war, since there are many independent states of Muslims.
>>1018209
I am not familiar with details about these, and I am honestly not too interested.
The only reason I know a bit about a potential caliphate is due to recent political events and discussion about Islam needing reformation.
Maybe there are other options to be explored, like you suggested.
>>1018223
Hm. Well, no Caliphate then I guess, Muslims are way too spread out. How will for example Morocco and Indonesia ever be part of the same state?
>>1018229
>How will for example Morocco and Indonesia ever be part of the same state?
Morocco is easy, all of North Africa is Muslim, and would all be part of such a state.
Indonesia is harder, since China is in the way, but that is it. If you take the world map and look at it, a line from Spain to Australia is one big Muslim belt, China excluded.
Incidentally, China would support such a state, since it plays against Russia, Japan and India, who are all Chinese rivals.
>>1018229
>>1018233
Forgot my map. Not at all spread out. There are other, more "generous" maps that will paint all of Northern India in green, but I am not convinced that is realistic.
>>1018238
some part of north india are muslim, also western china
>>1018238
Yeah, I guess. Still, such a superstate would be hard to administrate, plus there Shia's in there too. And as you mentioned forming this kind of political power would lead to heavy opposition form US etc
>>1018247
It would be up to the (very strong, actually) Saudi Arabian lobby in the US and UK governments to convince them that a caliph is required to fight terrorism, refugee crisis, ISIL and the problem of Israel and Palestine.
You can sort of rationalize that at least on the surface, and a particularly gifted politician can probably sell it to the masses.
>>1018238
>France
kek
>>1018255
UK is at around 5%, and Russia at over 10% as well, but they aren't depicted on the map and are unrealistic goals. So is France, really, it would never join a caliphate, and nor would Bulgaria, or Macedonia.
Ethiopia and Kazakhstan are a bit wild, and Turkey and Iran have too big plans for themselves to consider it.
>>1018211
>Saami
You do know we were very aggressively breeding them out of existence, right? They're barely any different from the rest of the Nordics (they even mostly live in the capitals and nobody can tell the difference).
Modern "Assyrians" are just deluded Levantines/Arabs
What the fuck did ancient Assyrian nobility even do?
Its history in a nutshell
>Assyria conquers Israel
>Babylon conquers Assyria
Assyrians were known for being a warlike people and expert at siege warfare.
there's not much else to say about it.
