Why aren't people class conscious?
Class doesn't matter any more, its all ethnicity and sect nowadays.
>>1012482
Class consciousness
>>1012501
>Implying that sects and ethnic ideologies are not the result of economic relationships between people
Because its fucking boring.
People used to be, then the Labour movements collapsed and people bought the neo-liberal pill and started competing and backstabbing their fellow workers.
My dad has complained about numerous times how in the 70s, workers were united, break rooms would be filled with radical political debate, people would discuss striking etc, while now, lunch rooms are people talking about how much they are going to get pissed on the weekend, sport and other braindead moronic shit, not only that, people just let their bosses roll over them without any pushback.
>>1012482
because marxism, for better or worse, has been subverted by gender and identity politics
>>1012501
Ethnicity and race has been used very well to divide the working class and ensure unequal wealth distribution
Why should they be?
Because of the omnipresence of ideology.
The People has a false consciousness of free-will and democracy, believing that being either conservative or liberal would imply representation of its interests into the politics controlled by the ruling class. This false consciousness misleads the population to believe that the problem is not capitalism itself, but some structural or moral issue that corrupts society.
Even when we have """anti-capitalist""" protests, like the Occupy Movement, we realize that the discourses are reformist rather and not revolutionary. The masses are made to believe that there is an "ideal capitalism" to be made, where the wealth wouldn't be concentrated in 1% of world population, they don't realize that the only answer to capitalism's inequality is abolishing it.
>>1012523
My dad says the same. People just don't care anymore.
>>1012482
Because politicians have mastered the art of looking like a common man to chumps
>>1012526
Most people who engage in identity politics are class conscious as well, they just care about their racial or gender issues more than classist issues.
It's more to do with the rise of Neoliberalism and the crushing of labor in the 1980s.
>>1012523
That's a good point and I would like to add more.
Back then the relationship between work-exploitation was more visible in first world countries, now this relationship is almost invisible. Because much of what was consumed was produced by the working class of such countries, so in order to put food in table, a working class family had to work hours in a fabric, assembly line or metalworks.
Nowadays there was an improvement of the working class in these countries, and much of these industries were relocated to third world countries, were workers labour in slave conditions for a low salary and the government control the unions, avoiding strikes. Such things happens in China, and we don't see it. First World people lives in capitalism and doesn't see the true face of it. Liberal teens buy their iPhones and doesn't gather consciousness over the conditions of Foxconn workers assembling it, or maybe they hear about it and simply don't care, because they live in the virtual reality of consumerism.
Ideology and Alienation.
>>1012482
Because it makes you resent the people who are the most capable of helping you advance your career.
Because most people have at least one friend who is richer than they are because they worked hard and studied smart.
Because most modern American unions are nothing but mafia rackets that take a cut of every paycheck you earn.
Because most people realize that they'd have to act just as dickishly as their bosses do if they were in their position.
Because most people understand that communists are full of woo woo bullshit and every time they take control of a country it turns to shit.
>>1012482
Not even leftists care about class consciousness anymore. They're all about african muslim trans dykes.
>>1012568
No, you are just a le mad leftist. Trump says funny things and words that I like, how can he be bad? You just want to destroy America with Mexicans.
>>1012644
"left" is a broad term. these can be called "leftists", but they are not real socialists. Actually, the remaining marxist thinkers of today criticize this "left" that concerns more on minorities and idiosyncrasies than the big screen of corporate exploitation and tyrant globalism.
>>1012482
Because people are individuals, not classes.
>>1012576
>Most people who engage in identity politics are class conscious
The American ones don't seem to have any class awareness at all. They are only focused on gender, sexual and race issues.
Mentioning class can even be seen as a bad thing
For example when discussing male "privilege", mentioning the fact that the majority of men in history were peasants/slaves/workers and mentioning class privilege of the male and female nobility will get you labelled in all sorts of ways
A paradox I see in Western Europe and the US.
The "evil" right wing/conservative/nationalist supporters are many times average or even poor people, while many progressive leftists tend to be upper class.
Maybe that's why many political ideologies have become jokes.
>>1012482
The wealthy are obviously quite deeply class conscious, and it wouldn't be convenient for them if the rest of humanity was too.
>>1012622
Capitalists have the control of the majority of the planet's media dude, they don't need you to apologize for them.
>>1012482
Because class is a spook most people stopped believing
Just because I share a class with someone, doesn't mean I agree with what he says. I'm a man, not a statistic who is lumped with others who happen to share my same condition.
Class is a spook btw and you should all be ashamed for being collectivists.
>>1012720
>if I say there's a class struggle enough, it'll surely come true! I'm a little slave to ideology who can't stand on his own two feet so I let ideology think for me!
t. you
Because people think they will rise above their current status like the 0.000000001% of people that sort of have.
>>1012726
but there is a class struggle, dumbfuck, huge corporations makes profit over badly paid workers, I'm merely observing the world as it is instead of denying everything as a spook.
Ideology doesn't think for me, ideology is not an entity, but it is an unconscious state that one should seek liberation from it in order to achieve authenticity.
tell me you are voluntary egoist when you wake up monday morning against your will to make money for someone else and earn to pay your living
>>1012720
Well if you can define these classes for me that would be great. I'd love to know if I'm a glorious prole or a worthless bourgeois parasite. Because every single person fits neatly into one or the other category.
>>1012740
I own my own business sucker
>>1012741
Traditionally, the classes are divided like this, but nowadays the sense is more abstract since economy changed and globalization started to alter the relationship between classes.
Working class: the class that works producing goods and earn a minimum share of what they producing, thus becoming attached with labour to afford its basic needs. Nowadays these classes are more present in third world countries.
Middle Classes (Former Petit Bourgeoisie): A good part of First World population falls here, these are the classes in between the poor workers and the ruling class. Usually Liberal professionals or small businessmen. They afford well enough to have a living without needing to sell their workforce, and consume well what was produced by the working class, generating profits for the capitalists.
The middle classes are responsible for most of the conservative/liberal discourses, being political active but without any revolutionary potential. Congressmen and politicians are middle class mostly.
Nobility traditionally falls here.
The Capitalist Class (Former Bourgeoisie): The smallest class, and owner of most of the capital. They own the means of production and earn most of the profit from the workers. Nowadays this class is invisible since corporations transcended the need of an owner.
The capitalists are responsible for most of the ideology, since they own the media and information, they patron arts and politicians too, installing its hegemony. Many of the so called "rich people" are actually from the middle class, the capitalists are more like owners of the companies that are omnipresent in global market.
It is hard to escape being dependent from them, since they own almost every mean of production, either you will work for them or buy from them.
>>1012762
So everyone who owns shares in a blue chip firm is a capitalist?
>>1012772
No, having ten thousand bucks invested in Wal-Mart doesn't make you part of the capitalist class.
I'm talking about those guys who have shares enough to sit in the round desk with the CEO and make decisions. I'm talking about the guys who would suck a well until it is drought, and leave with a bag of profits. The guy who would talk with the Defense Minister of the US about financing the troops in order to suck resources when the american flag is over some oil land. That's it.
>>1012786
So how many thousand? Is there exact number, over which you become a bad guy? I just want to know so I'm on the right side. How much am I allowed? And who decided how much this amount is? You?
>>1012762
Middle class shouldn't be counted. They are the employees either of government structures or private companies. This makes them closer to working class.
>>1012482
That would defeat the room at the top idea
>>1012799
Look on Forbes, they have some numbers. But as I said, corporations transcended people, so doesn't matter who owns the largest sums, the problem are that nowadays corporations are just money-making machines.
>>1012809
Middle Class is really broad, it could be your family dentist or it could be the owner of some big chain of supermarkets of your area. What differs middle class to working class is that they do not need to sell their labour force to obtain their living needs, they are more independent, they can consume luxury goods, they have the illusion of autonomy, but they don't realize that all the politics they believe and all financial status they have is a product of alienation. They don't realize that their way of living is not a consequence of how hard they worked for it, but a matter of being in the right place during the right time. Nothing separates them from the poor worker
>>1012826
Thank goodness us blind ignorant sheep have such clever fellows like you to guide us out our illusions. How did you manage to break the conditioning? Or is a mind as sharp as yours immune to the silliness affecting less powerful brains.
>>1012799
>wanting an abstract concept defined to an exact number
>>1012964
Ok, so class is only an abstract concept and not rooted in economic reality
>>1012937
Don't be so dismissive. I took a Sociology class in high school and later got into an elite university, where I met several like-minded people. There I learned how to observe the world consciously and without the bias inculcated by the Capitalist hegemony. You can do it too if you care for a better life than you have now.
>>1012937
my dear, I never implied I'm most clever. actually, most people can see through illusion, like for example, it is no secret that the computers we are using right now to read these messages are made by slave-hands on Asia, sold world-widely for a very profitable price, it is almost common sense to know such things.
But the thing of alienation is that even tho people know everything that is going on, people still ignore it because they are preoccupied with daily life things. (and sometimes even with other things created by capitalism itself, like for example, the entertainment industry)
I am alienated by many things too, man. We are all constantly baited by ideology and sometimes hooked, the difference of people like me is that I'm interested in having a good reading to question my being, to wonder if I'm property of someone else's discourse, and this is a branch of philosophy not exclusive to Marxism. Most people don't question, and this is a fact.
>>1012990
>>1012995
>>1012482
They actually are, it's just that the Communist conception of "Class" is ridiculously overbroad and essentially false, and people are conscious of an identity of the one of dozens of classes they're in, not some broad "proletariat" class.
>>1012990
Kek.
>>1012582
>liberals of all people not caring about exploited non-white people
Is liberal just a term to throw out there like cuck now?
We are aware of our class, we just aren't retarded enough like Marxists to want to kill everyone who doesn't belong to our class.
As someone who has been in the workforce for 15 years, most people are good natured and naive.
They don't want to believe they are being exploited, all those unpaid hours of overtime "my boss wouldn't ask me if we didn't need it",
All those unpaid freelance jobs "for your portfolio", I guess they didn't have the money, next time though!
Being told to work weekends when your boss knows you have something on
"I guess it's just going to be that busy!"
The biggest lie of Capitalism is that everyone is selfish and only acts in their self-interest. This is false, this is how exploitation flourishes in Capitalism, people's natural good nature and trust is exploited by their bosses and managers.
Most people can be put into sheep or wolf categories, those that are fine manipulating and screwing over others, and those who are good natured and trust their fellow man.
There is a reason a huge portion of CEOs and Politicians show clinical sociopathy.
I'm a dyed in the wool red now, but I was actually the opposite as a teenager, lolbertarian through and through, didn't take long in the workforce though to beat that stupid out of me.
(yes I know I'm over 30 and still posting on 4chan, fuck my life)
>>1013151
>using the corrupted American definition of liberal
different nations different names, anon.
>>1013311
You know that saying in poker that if you can't work out who the sucker at the table is, the sucker is you? I have some bad news. If you're over thirty and still left wing you fucked up bad
>>1012523
How about this, both you and your dad are fucking losers. If you wanted break room conversation to be intelligent and not brain-dead maybe you should've gotten a fucking education or some skills retard. I grew up in a car and make a 6 figure salary you literally have no excuse
I bet socialists are those who as children whined and cried about kids who got more Halloween candy than they did.
Identity politics is trendy right now.
>>1012482
Class Consciousness
>>1013>>1012799
>being intentionally this obtuse
>>1012482
Class Consciousness
>>1013504
>I grew up in a car and make a 6 figure salary you literally have no excuse
literally the worst argument anyone has ever made and yet it somehow always gets trotted out.
>inb4 muh jealousy/laziness
I'm a richfag
Making money isn't hard you fucking mong, anyone can do it, but not everyone can do it. Don't get butthurt about people who are trying to better their lives.
>>1012482
>Why aren't people class conscious?
The Mainstream Media has convinced them if they work hard enough and long enough, then maybe they can become a member of the Global Corporate Nobility (lol).
>>1014128
Oh so you have nothing definite, only your feels, and a vague sense people you don't like who make more money than you are bad
>>1014563
>better their lives
>by plotting to steal money through government programs instead of making themselves valuable
Lmaooo
>>1013094
How can you miss the point this hard?
Did the man use big words?
>>1012482
This almost mechanical view of humanity is very characteristic of Marxism. This mechanical view becomes much clearer once you apply this general question to individuals. If you had asked why Marie isn't more class conscious, or Anthony, or Jackson, suddenly the answer becomes much clearer; Marie, Anthony, and Jackson are not personally conscious of their social class in relation to others, either because they know about it and don't care, or because they don't know about it at all. When you ask that same question of the general population, 'class consciousness' becomes not only a necessity, but a logical outcome, and the lack of 'class consciousness' becomes an irregularity that requires some kind of explanation. The answer is this: most people aren't class conscious for the same reason that most people aren't curtain conscious, or ceiling fan conscious, or armchair conscious. They don't need to be.
>>1012482
Class Consciousness!
>>1017443
>not seeking to be conscious of and discerning in all things
Sounds like Marie, Anthony, and Jackson are philistine plebs.
>>1017472
Wow, I can see why communism is a raging success across the western world.
>>1012482
Because communism is most popular in expensive universities with no proletariat in sight.
This thread is idiotic. You might as well as ask why more people don't feel Catholic guilt, or fear being reincarnated as a worm
>>1014974
>"Steal money"
>Rich people are valuable
top lel.
>mfw this thread
>>1012482
> Why aren't people class conscious?
They are.
It's just people also believe mass-media too much.
>>1012523
>Le sports are moronic to talk about look at these sheep
Your Dad sounds like a cuck. Sports have been the discussion of Americans in the workplace since the 1890s. Not every fucking discussion needs to be about "Le Class Struggle".
Most people actually are. Do you fucking talk to people at all?
It's just the externalisation of classes have faded because people dress like shit these days and upper-classes have the same shitty tastes as lower classes.
>>1012541
>Ethnicity and race has been used very well to divide the working class and ensure unequal wealth distribution
>implying that hasn't been the case since the beginning of mankind.
>implying that moderm 'racial divisions' aren't simply a product of autistic multi-cultural 'societies'.
>>1018517
Haha OK fucking labor theory of value moron. Guess what, for some reason, labor theory just doesn't work in reality and has never existed, even in Communism, I wonder the fuck why?? Rich people are valuable moron, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet (completely excluding ANY charity work they've done) have done more for human progress than every charity in the last 50 years combined mong.
>>1012482
Because SJWs inverted base and structure.
>>1012666
>these can be called "leftists", but they are not real socialists
Real socialists have more in common with rednecks and serbian nationalists than the majority of people we can call leftists.
>>1018696
>autistic
Making sure your people are all the same and they don't touch any other people seems more autistic.
>>1013504
t. 15 year old
Class struggle is a meme created by intellectuals to instrumentalize common people to fight for their own interests.
What defines history is caste struggle between warrior castes and priestly castes, it's modern iteration being the struggle between the business world and entrepeneurs and the academic world and the intelligentsia. Both use their own methods to enlist the support of commoners. Marxism is the weapon of the intelligentsia.
>>1021937
What interests are those? Which side are the eg scientists whose discoveries power industry on?
>>1022110
a blatant over simplification of class differences, all written with the underlying premise that society is suppose to be fair, and we are morally compelled to do something to make it fair.
>>1019380
>Implying I believe in the labour theory of value
>Implying I give a fuck about charity
>>1022134
>
>>1022151
>>1022162
did I play a string, pal?
Class Conciousness.
>>1022167
the fall of the soviet union
the international political situation became unbalanced in favour for the US and capitalism so western countries didn't even need to try and didn't have to give rights and shit because there was no other option, there was no realistic option for people starting a revolution since there was no other living option
plus other countries like china, india and some africans got crushed by the capitalism and become the slave workers
that's why we even have less rights than decades before, and this will grow until a major breackout like the russian revolution in the early XX century or another world war
>>1014648
Noone believe this
people believe in a good days work for a good days pay, I might live in a cucked shithole (the UK) but it's still leaps and bounds ahead of socialist nations like Venezuela or Zimbabwe that have fallen apart under leftism.
Look what happened when all the "rich bourgeois" white farmers were chased out of the latter for example, the farming sector and economy collapsed.
>>1018572
This is why no one likes commies desu.
They always gotta make everything about their dumb ideology.
>>1021937
I'm not sure if you're just trying really hard to be edgy or not but chances are you don't really believe half this shit you wrote anyway.
>>1012762
Why does Justin Bieber make more money than... Slash?
>>1021937
If ingelligentsia aint worth money, it aint worth shit, e.g useless
>>1022263
who makes more money in this case is irrelevant. pop music is irrelevant.
they are both middle class, doesn't matter how much money in the pockets. Being capitalist doesn't mean being on magazine covers, it means owning the fucking capital therefore influencing governments, financing cheap labour in third world countries, crushing small business, pressuring banking in small economies etc.
>>1012482
I'm very class conscious.
>don't want to live on a council estate
>don't want to associate with ugly, fat, criminal people
>don't want my children to go to school with uncultured idiots
>don't want to work in unskilled labour
I know this isn't true of all working class people, but it's a lot more common with them than the middle class.
>>1024252
But everyone does all those things. Every time you choose not to shop in a small store are you crushing them?
Everyone who has investments own capital. Everyone with a vote influences government. And why are small business preferable to larger?
>>1024637
>But everyone does all those things.
When I say "owning the capital", I mean not owning a sum of money, but owning the means of production, keeping the surplus value of it.
Really few people do that because really few people are able to do that.
>Every time you choose not to shop in a small store are you crushing them?
Yes. And you don't need to be a marxist to agree with it, it is a common law of the market. That was how the antique "artisan" class disappeared in the dawn of capitalism.
>Everyone who has investments own capital.
But as I said above, being part of the liberal strata (lets say a dentist, or some other small independent business) and having some Microsoft shares or speculating in the housing market doesn't make one the owner of the means of production, this hypothetical person would only earn to improve his living standards, but it wouldn't do things like financing the congress to pass laws favoring its interests or manipulating the economy of some country like El Salvador.
>Everyone with a vote influences government.
But democracy is obviously not constituted by votes. Or you think that a New England shopkeepers has the same political representation as the CEO of Chevron? If you really believe that, you are naive.
>And why are small business preferable to larger?
They aren't. But they are part of the american dream, aren't day? The ultimate capitalist desire of being financially independent
I just said that they eventually crushed by big business.
>>1024702
So shares don't involve owning part of a business and retaining the profits. What is the dividend for?
If I substitute your 'capitalist' for /pol/s 'jew' is there any actual difference in what you're saying. Does the sense change?
In the US the population is so diverse that it!s near impossible for unification in support of anything.
Capitalism has flourished in the country because there is no unity.
It's ironic that the biggest supporters of capitalism have turned out to be liberals through supporting immigration snd breakingdown social cohesion in the name of diversity.
>>1012523
>Both dad and son are commie cucks
>>1024722
>So shares don't involve owning part of a business and retaining the profits. What is the dividend for?
What the hell, I thought I made myself clear. There is a huge difference between being a dentist and having about ten or thirty thousands dollars of shares in some big company and being a billionaire investor and owning stuff like 10% of Shell, Chrevron or any other big company, therefore being part of the company's roundtable, therefore taking decisions that will pressure government to aplly social-political measures that will affect the whole population of a country.
>If I substitute your 'capitalist' for /pol/s 'jew' is there any actual difference in what you're saying.
The only difference is that, unlike the jewish conspiracy theory, there are many leaks of governments favoring certain corporations, or congressmen/presidents/prime-ministers who had their campaigns financed by mega-corporations, doing political lobby for the interests of these enterprises.
If you can't see any of this, I'm sorry for you.
>>1024756
So how many shares are the dividing line? If I own $1m in shares am I at the big table yet? What if I don't own many shares but get invited to the right sort of parties with influential people.
And clearly you aren't checking the ethnicity of these people. Open your eyes to the real nebulous group controlling your thoughts!
>>1012482
Class consciousness
>>1012576
>>1012689
They think about class mostly when the lower classes challenge their privileges. Then they pull out identity politics to neuter the left.
>>1012716
>>1012720
>>1012726
>>1012740
>>1012742
Incidentally, only the working people are not class concious. Read business class mags and they clearly understand their class issues. That is why even industrial capitalists support financial capital even though the financial capital is destroying their companies.
>>1022205
You know nothing about history or why they are what they are.
>>1024771
>So how many shares are the dividing line? If I own $1m in shares am I at the big table yet?
I think you are a newly rich that believes to be cocky just because you drive a porsche and have a few millions in the account, you want to believe you are part of the capitalist class, but you are simply a middle class taxpayer.
1m is not even 0,01% of market value of any decent corporation, try harder.
>>1024840
So how much gets you into the capitalist class? Or possibly people don't snugly fit into these classes of yours? Maybe people with similar income levels don't think alike or have aligned goals.
>>1012482
Class consciousness
No war but class war comrades.
>>1012482
I won't say your magic words, Boneshevik of Communism.
Class consciousness
>>1012523
My father is Yugoslav and he says the same shit. Neoliberalism made everyone superficial, selfish fucks.
>>1012482
No
Free Market
>>1024756
>unlike the jewish conspiracy theory
50% of billionaires are jews, that is no theory.
>>1012482
Because of nationalism and racism promoted by the hegemonic class. Hobsbawm talks about this. You might want to read Gramsci too.
>>1022134
>>1012482
Class Consciousness
>>1012786
glad that im not wealthy enough to be a bad guy, unfortunately my friends has become rich and thus become an evil capitalist, what should i do?
I told them to stop being rich since its an evil thing to do and they will be eradicated in the class war, but they don't care :(
>>1013493
t. 15 year old edgelord
>>1012482
>Why aren't people class conscious?
The worker has two material relationships within capitalism:
alienation from production, which produces class consciousness in the form of proletarian self-emancipation; and,
sale of the self as labour-power, which produces class consciousness in the form of the servile wage maximising consumer, or "false consciousness" if we're using late 19th century terminology.
>>1012786
T. College boy socialist who has never had a real job, or run a business, and has an embarrassingly poor grasp of how corporate governance and accountability works.
Do you actually think there are these fat cats like in a Steve bell cartoon? The real world ain't that simple my boy
>>1013311
>The biggest lie of Capitalism is that everyone is selfish and only acts in their self-interest.
That's the biggest truth of """""Capitalism""""", actually. It's your bullshit projections that are a lie.
