How much was the freethought movement and the Age of Enlightenment influenced by freemasonry? Some say that freemasonry played a huge role, but is there any actual evidence to back this up?
The Craft's fundamental tenet; a brotherhood of good men bound together by brotherly love, relief (charity) and truth. Principles that should be entirely uncontroversial to all who purport to be religious and/or of the Christian faith.
Catholic Church's hysterical, ill-informed and spite-filled treatment of the Craft, over the centuries, not to mention, of course, the Church-sanctioned and Church-lead murders of many Freemasons,
>>1007525
Yea... Freemasonry is almost a religion and it's influenced by protestant and occult ideas.
Which is why the Catholic church deemed dangerous and heretical.
>>1007578
The Church of Peter cannot delay forever its acknowledgement of the validity of the Church of John.
>>1007605
Tf are you talking about?
>>1007525
And yet they use a lot of occult symbolism and are shrouded in secrecy.
That's the reason the Church dislikes them.
And you're a fool if you actually believe the Freemasons are completely innocent of any crimes
>>1007624
The "Church of John" means the esoteric, tradition, the 'mystical' side of Christianity, which is required at this point to bring a new impulse, if you will, and thus help prevent the literal Petrification of the Church
>>1007634
Well we can have all that mystical stuff and not be heretics.
What we need is a re-clarification of the teachings of the Catholic church, we also need to get rid of those homosexuals, pedophiles, modernists, and satanists that run around the clergy.
Doesn't matter if the world doesn't accept the Church, as long as it teaches its truths.
>>1007457
Not in of itself, but the types who pushed it, were also inclined to see support for their ideas in Masonry. Masonry being the study of the self and the world, it became an easy vehicle for anyone pushing an agenda.
>>1007578
It was made by Catholics, for Catholics...
>>1007629
>That's the reason the Church dislikes them.
Yea, they saw a rival and were too afraid to parlay, instead condemning what they didn't understand.
>And you're a fool if you actually believe the Freemasons are completely innocent of any crimes
And you're a fool if you conflate the institution with the members.
>>1007793
>Yea, they saw a rival and were too afraid to parlay, instead condemning what they didn't understand.
The Freemasons were a bunch of snotty nobles who believed themselves too smart for the church, and tried to cut them down in any way possible
>And you're a fool if you conflate the institution with the members.
I was talking about the members as part of the institution.
The Freemasons did a lot of nasty stuff to keep onto the power they earned, only fitting that they're now a joke
>>1007806
>The Freemasons were a bunch of snotty nobles who believed themselves too smart for the church, and tried to cut them down in any way possible
Well no. Gentry were later 18thC adopters of the Craft. And given that Masonry is about supporting the church, your second claim is curious.
>The Freemasons did a lot of nasty stuff to keep onto the power they earned
Oh do elaborate...
>>1007810
Please, I can see you're a freemason and trying to shill your stupid society.
Freemasons like to fluff up their history and heritage and claim to be "muh super important order" but they were a bunch of spoiled little noble brats from the start, no better than the hellfire club.
It's no wonder that when the communists came to power in Eastern Europe the freemasons were one of the societies purged
>>1007850
All i'm hearing are insults without backing. Prejudice getting the better of you?
>>1007856
Ponces playing princes deserve no better
>>1007865
Then i shall address your childish lack of knowledge.
>Freemasons like to fluff up their history and heritage and claim to be "muh super important order"
Are you pretending it hasn't had considerable place in history?
>they were a bunch of spoiled little noble brats from the start
If you'd learned about the Craft, instead of hearing solely from detractors, you'd know it was guild workers to begin with, and common folk made the transition to speculative. Scientific minds progressed it, and only much later sought noble patrons.
>It's no wonder that when the communists came to power in Eastern Europe the freemasons were one of the societies purged
I agree there. It's pretty antithical to communism. Meritocracy and such.
>>1007634
>The "Church of John" means the esoteric, tradition, the 'mystical' side of Christianity
Which we have entire bookshelves written about, both in the West and in the East.
>>1007890
>Are you pretending it hasn't had considerable place in history?
No, I'm pointing out that it's a glorified social club.
>we wuz builders of Solomon's temple n shit
>If you'd learned about the Craft, instead of hearing solely from detractors, you'd know it was guild workers to begin with, and common folk made the transition to speculative
That's what they like to tell themselves, but it's always been rich folks and nobles jerking each other off
>>1007987
>No, I'm pointing out that it's a glorified social club.
With Francis Bacon, Voltaire, Edward Jenner, Beckmann, Bell, Desaguiliar, and most of The Royal Society as members?
>That's what they like to tell themselves
No, that's what history has recorded. You seem to want it to be less than what it is for some reason. Were you blackballed or something?
>>1007793
>It was made by Catholics, for Catholics...
At first, by the time of the unification of the Ancient and the Modern factions of Freemasonry, protestantism was taking root, not to mention that the practice of Kabbalah was brought into Europe, both of which greatly influenced Freemasonry.
As time goes on it gets less and less Catholic and less and less Christian to something of a Unitarian deistic occultism.
>>1008012
Are you implying that the work they did was directly linked to their membership in masonry, or do you think it's more likely they just happened to be members?
>No, that's what history has recorded
There are no almost no records on masonry except the ones produced by themselves, and they were only peripherally linked to the guilds themselves, which weren't exactly poor.
Also unrelated, but do you personally think that the modern rites date their descent back to Hiram Abiff?
>>1008020
Yea, it had to. What with the Hannoverians being the Protestant monarchy in the Masonic heartland. It couldn't stay as overtly Catholic, and had to be universally Christian, which stuck around til 1813, when it retained all the Christian morality, but allowed others to join, and made the Craft degrees non-sectarian.
>>1008036
>Are you implying that the work they did was directly linked to their membership in masonry, or do you think it's more likely they just happened to be members?
A bit of both. Depending on the member in question.
>There are no almost no records on masonry except the ones produced by themselves, and they were only peripherally linked to the guilds themselves, which weren't exactly poor.
Those are still records. Minutes, membership notes and the like. It's not like we have much else to go on, or that it's so flattering. We certainly can see the transition from operative to speculative, when the guilds were certainly quite poor due to lack of work since the Tudors took over and said brick was in fashion.
>Also unrelated, but do you personally think that the modern rites date their descent back to Hiram Abiff?
Nah, no one actually thinks that. Especially since the Hiramic myth was added around 1760. It was Noahchite before that, as well as related to a couple other Biblical plays the guilds produced.
>>1008012
You forgot Napoleon, karl marx, George Washington, stalin, the list just goes on and on and on
>>1008146
They aren't scientists, and three of them are questionable as regards membership. I think Napoleon may have been a member early on, but clearly didn't stick with it to any degree (no pun). Marx and Stalin have nothing indicating membership. The latter certainly wouldn't be fond of it.
>>1007457
Bump
That fucking eye looking through the triangle. What/who the fuck is it?
>>1012495
The omnipresent eye of God. It's a Christian thing.
