why are people against hedonism? do they hate pleasure?
>>1001152
because hedonism doesn't make you happy
>>1001152
dude weed lmao
>>1001157
what does make you happy?
>>1001167
achieving long term goals
so basically, the opposite of hedonism
People don't hate pleasure, they just realize its stupid to base your lifestyle on it.
>>1001174
>achieving long term goals
according to who?
>>1001178
personal experience.
eating junk food, playing videya and wanking to porn hasn't really made happy
>>1001174
but that's just another form of hedonism, which is why nobody has ever been able to propose a system of ethics that ultimately doesn't reduce itself to hedonism. ie ethics is just the building of walls
>>1001181
>eating junk food, playing videya and wanking to porn hasn't really made happy
these are the things that i do and feel very satisfied and happy with life.
>>1001185
no its not
hedonism = desire to acchieve short term benefits
>>1001188
nah senpai, those things are addictions and make you feel empty inside
>>1001193
your definition is not very good, since you don't really specify what happiness is.
>no they don't
There are pretty solid evidence that internet pornograhpy causes addiction
>>1001181
Graduating and getting a serious gf haven't made me happy, but neither has going back to wanking and vidya
>>1001196
>since you don't really specify what happiness is.
do you have some sort of objective definition of happiness then?
>There are pretty solid evidence that internet pornograhpy causes addiction
what makes addiction in it of itself "bad"?
>>1001198
Probably because you don't really view those things as achievements. More like something society expects you to do
>>1001199
>do you have some sort of objective definition of happiness then?
I would differ between short term pleasure and the happiness of acchieving long term goals
>what makes addiction in it of itself "bad"?
It makes you feel unhappy and empty
>>1001152
Hedonism is pleasure in excess.
The truth to happiness is not confining yourself to single-term solutions that ignore the very complex routes and reasons we seek it. Some people want/need only either hedonism or ascetism to be truly happy with themselves, but I know from personal experience that my own happiness comes not from attempting to achieve either, but by trying to do both to my own preferable degree. One must ask himself first what is happiness. Is it the joy of the moment or the pleasure taken in one's accomplishments? I choose to say that happiness is no one defined thing, and only and end goal of enjoyment. Every person's individual free choices and desires is what drives them to their personal happiness, and any attempts to define happiness for a group of people is both futile and pointless.
>>1001204
>I would differ between short term pleasure and the happiness of acchieving long term goals
to achieve longterm goals will give you pleasure, therefore your arguing for a form of hedonism.
>It makes you feel unhappy and empty
my addictions make me feel great, if they didn't i probably wouldn't have them as addictions.
>>1001214
>arguing serious points with weeb images
Never change, 4chan
>>1001214
>to achieve longterm goals will give you pleasure, therefore your arguing for a form of hedonism.
Not him but pleasure of hedonism and pleasure of a longtime goal are not the same type of pleasure. The fact of pleasure is consistent, but the nature of it isn't.
>>1001202
I don't know what I see as achievements. I don't want anything.
Did I achieve enlightenment by accident?
>>1001214
>to achieve longterm goals will give you pleasure
Yes, but you need to pass on shot term pleasure, which requires discipline. For example, children are really bad at it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_oy9614HQ
>my addictions make me feel great, if they didn't i probably wouldn't have them as addictions.
There is enough scientific evidence of harmful effects of addiction, I dont really see any point in arguing it
>>1001219
Your achivements are made in your own mind, and most likely constructed from traits and states that you actively cognitively consider positive or 'good'. Any state such as physical fitness, wealth, desirability, etc. is something that you consciously value and deem 'good', and will therefore make you feel a fulfilling sense of achievement once pursued and achieved.
>>1001220
Short term pleasures do not negate long term ones. While some seriously impede the process, long term goals of happiness can be achieved just as well, if not exclusively, by choosing to partake in short-term goals.
>>1001216
cute anime girls bring me pleasure.
>>1001217
>Not him but pleasure of hedonism and pleasure of a longtime goal are not the same type of pleasure.
according to who?
>There is enough scientific evidence of harmful effects of addiction,
would you mind linking to studies just about addiction, and not about anything like drug addiction? i can not seem to find any on just addiction on its own.
>>1001234
>according to who
No authority involved, it is simply an observation of someone who believes himself to have experienced both (myself). Speaking from personal experience as someone who was a devoted hedonist, it is a very fine and pleasurable state, but is also not the same type of pleasure as that of achievement in a long term-goal. Unfortunately, this may be something that cannot be concretely understood until experienced on a personal level.
>>1001174
>>achieving long term goals
this is hedonism
>>1001196
this is why you can't escape it. hedonism is not the desire to achieve short time benefits unless that's your idea of happiness. y'all are a bunch of delusional idiots who think that you can somehow twirl yourself around the notion of happiness being the ultimate motivator. why would you want it to be something else? do you feel as if your life is that unique?
>>1001205
this is another possible definition, but it's not generally accepted.
>>1001152
Because hedonists are obnoxious assholes who make a fucking philosophy out of something that's natural for all living beings, and that is to maximize the amount of pleasure and reduce the amount of pain. We are all hedonists by nature, no need to make a big deal out of it.
But if you try to give theoretical excuse to your physical and mental degeneracy then you're trash and deserve to be treated like that
>>1001287
>that is to maximize the amount of pleasure and reduce the amount of pain.
>but the way you're doing it makes me angry
>>1001287
>physical and mental degeneracy
Said who? If i feel great and want others to feel great also i deserve to be treated like what, trash?
Nigga u trippin
>>1001227
if you spend your days watching porn and playing videya, what sort of long term goals are you gonna achieve?
Whilst id agree hedonism is prevelant (and also i feel important to have) in a young mans life, i feel at some point you have moments of inner speculation which asks if this short, intense moments of happiness is enough in life. For some it is but in my opinion these people are simple and thus aspire to only fufill base wants.
However if you have the value of thinking past your own existance (prehaps it can come if you have children/someone special in your life?) then you think of putting expense towards them. Or if you have more ambition you change the world around you for what you percive as the better.
ill give you my life as example.
>A wastral of the highest order, collecting benfits, dossing in a YMCA and instead of growing up, drinking, eating going out and fucking.
> stealing when i wanted some new clothes or food if i had spent all my benifits on alcohol or new video games.
>comfortable in life but still depressed for some reason.
>meet girl.
>fall in love with said girl
>around the same time brother kills himself.
>realise that I am the last child in my lineage and therefore responsibility falls on me.
>bro was smart and was going to be a literal rocket scientist
> at the time thought cool i can be as much of a mess as i want now
>I now have a good job and plans to marry my gf soon and give her a baby. go for the cliche of house with dog too.
> want to get involved in local politics now too so i can raise my future kid in a world i helped make better for them.
so i think once you have one of these, lets say 'Revalations' in your life along with maybe people you value taking more precident over you, you'll not be more hedonistic than a normal human being, even though self intrest is in every man really.
>>1001305
You don't have to fully commit to either side. You don't have to spend the entire day endulging in hedonistic pleasure, but can still devote some time to pleasuring yourself. Likewise you do not need to spend all day in preparation or working for future goals, but can still devote an amount of time to it. To put it simply, don't choose extremes, choose a middleground of hedonism and ascetism. Do not force yourself into simple dogmatic structures of fully one thing or another, but work as much as you can to fulfill both. Granted, now and then one of the sides will take precedence depending on your own wishes, but what I'm saying is that you shouldn't fully commit to either, but commit to the degree that you're happy with to both.
>>1001321
If you don't fully commit to recieving short term pleasure, you dont fully embrace hedonism
So, to answere OPs question, the bad thing about hedonism is that you dont get shit done
>>1001317
This is indeed a very thoughtful post, but if life is about finding pleasure in the way you want it (which would be the personal choice of goal for most people who consider it), then why value what some people seek to find (hedonistic pleasure) either lower or higher than long-term pleasure just because that is your own personal values on the subject? While I agree that long-term values and goals can cause happiness that is much more fulfilling and pleasurable than hedonism, this does not mean that hedonism in itself is less pleasant, because it is so only on a shorter time-span. To go to the extremes of long-term pleasure building is to completely neglect pleasure in the current moment, and I'd even go as boldly forward as to say that you probably value ascetic virtues and long-term goals higher than hedonism because you haven't previously strived to attain them. It is, simply put, the pleasure you are not used to before.
>>1001328
I never said you should fully commit to hedonism, but nonetheless you should indulge in it to the degree that you yourself feel comfortable with. I never advocated this strange notion of black & white thinking that you seem to have where I have to fully commit to either side and/or take a stance. I don't. I'm simply pointing out that true pleasure and happiness lies in the middle-ground of hedonism and ascetism that each man must find for himself.
>>1001317
>>realise that I am the last child in my lineage and therefore responsibility falls on me.
loser
>>1001334
this is not some sort of grey area
if you commit 100% of your time to hedonism, you get nothing done.
if you are 50% hedonist, you get only 50% shit done etc.
>>1001350
>this is not some sort of grey area
Literally EVERYTHING is a grey area. There are no black and whites, only grey, yellow and purple.
>>1001332
This is actully very true in my case. I think the girl i have is very normal, you could argue dull even. So that contrast was an attraction. much as my behavior seemed 'dangerous' so that opposite attracted her. She also liked the idea of improving me i feel (however i would stress im still my own man but have mellowed over the years).
On your point however i would add there are people on the opposite end of the spectum, the 'Workoholics' who only strive that because of there diffrent ego. They strive to do well so they can be wealthy/famous ect later and THEN devulge in there hedonistic fantasies. so all those "get a job!" sort of people are completely ignoring there own hipocrasy.
>>1001342
How am i a loser for that? fucking a woman and creating a being from my genetics doesnt sound like something a loser takes part in. I suppose you could argue my farther was aloser because he popped only two of us out (that i know of) and then procceded to have a vivisection.
Or are you perscribing to the thought that getting tied to having a wife and kids is for losers? just curious to your logic here if thats the case.
>>1001393
I like you, anon, you seem very intelligent indeed. From one self-proclaimed amateur philosopher to what I believe to identify as another, godspeed you crazy bastard, and good luck in your future life search of pleasure on a lasting basis!
>>1001193
That sounds like one of those pseudo intellectual definitions that really just turn into a tautological circle jerk. Based on that definition you could claim that any action was hedonistic.
Worked hard long hours your whole life in a miserable job you hatted with a spouse you hatted to take care of a kid you resent? Obviously hedonism because doing so made you 'happier' than any other option.
It's completely unfalsifiable and therefor worthless as a theory.
>>1001293
No, it that you try to make it sound like your desire to have another cheese-burger is somehow a manifestation of the greatest possible good as is therefor not only praiseworthy but morally superior.
>>1001152
if your brain was constantly flooded with dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine it would feel good but turn into mush, you'd barely be a sentient being anymore after a while
we are supposed to keep pleasure and pain at acceptable levels, not go all out
>>1001152
People burn out on pleasure, and then die. It's very depressing when nothing can satiate your desire for pleasure any longer; that you have become habituated to the very thing that will likely kill you.
Not everybody desires to live like animals.
>>1001174
You are just a sophisticated hedonist.
>>1001152
Because hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure at the expense of everything else. Some people prefer to delay their gratification.
>>1004046
See this
>>1004012
If you take pleasure to mean "Any good feeling" and hedonism to mean "The maximization of your own personal take on what brings you the most [or highest quality] good feelings" then almost any philosophy [but notably not all philosophies] can be redefined as a form of hedonism, making the word worthless as a concept.
The key difference between most forms of hedonism, sophisticated or otherwise, vs other philosophies is
1. Is the good feeling the goal of the action, or the consequence of the action? The idea that one achieves great things purely to experience the feeling of achievement trivializes the action. The pleasure is sought, but its secondary to the action itself.
2. Is the maximization of pleasure of any form actually a thought in the mind of the person following the philosophy? If it doesn't come into their value calculations, its probably not a form of hedonism in any useful sense.
>>1004073
You don't get to redefine hedonism. It's a word that existed before you did.
he·don·ism
ˈhēdəˌnizəm,ˈhedənˌizəm/
noun
the pursuit of pleasure; sensual self-indulgence.
Being altruistic brings people pleasure; it is not sensual self-indulgence. That's hedonism.
>>1004081
I'm not the one redefining hedonism. The person trying to redefine the word to mean "literally any philosophy that leads to good feelings" is.
>>1001152
You need meaning in order to be fully fulfilled.
>>1004126
And acting on that will lead to the hedonism paradox; the more you chase pleasure, the less pleasure you will feel.
>>1001152
Dysfunction begets dysfunction.
Hedonism, like any ethical school of thought, arbitrarily derives intrinsic value from things that have none. People don't like hedonism because it's arguably the most arbitrary of these. Why is pleasure 'good' and why is pain 'bad'? Why should humans strive to maximize total pleasure? Because someone said so.
>>1004222
All of these systems are equally arbitrary.
The pursuit of eudaimonia?
The highest pleasure for the greatest number?
The will to power?
The maximization of one's own pleasure?
All these systems, while complex and sophisticated, all ultimately rest upon unproven axioms that are really nothing more than an expression of one's own will.
>>1001189
>short term benefits
This is the key phrase here. I have nothing against rich fags being hedonists with their own money. But it just happens that so called hedonists are typically people who want much and contribute little. Thus being a drain on society and despicable people on an individual level. If they are viewed badly in the present imagine in the past were scarcity was even more of a thing.
>>1001152
>why are people against hedonism?
I'm against excess. Hedonism is excessive.
Because hedonism, when adopted by even a significant minority of a population as a valid method of living one's life, subsequently cases the rapid destabilization and eventual collapse of said population
See: Brazil
>>1004127
Fulfillment is a form of pleasure
Checkmate, anti-hedonists
>all these idiots attempting to redefine hedonism
>claiming that pleasure derived from X is somehow fundamentally different from pleasure derived from Y
Kek.
It's all about the brain chemicals. If you're doing something in order to bring yourself happiness, pleasure, peace of mind, or some other kind of fulfillment; It's hedonistic.
>>1004303
>the human brain is literally just chemicals lol
WHEN WILL THIS MEME DIE
>>1004313
When it's proven to be made up of anything else
>>1004313
But it is tho
>>1004318
>I do not have even a basic understanding of what the human brain is or how it functions
>>1004321
Ok, you just described yourself to me. What was the point of that?
>>1004333
>the human brain - literally the most complex and sophisticated system known to all of science
>its just chemicals lol :^)
>>1004343
>literally the most complex and sophisticated system of chemicals known to man
ftfy
>>1004343
Technically everything is just chemicals.
>>1004355
>The American civil war was just a bunch of people moving their muscles lmao
>>1004360
It kind of was.
>>1004378
And this is why everyone says STEMlords are autistic as fuck.
>>1004390
this whole thread is autism
>>1004343
Why are you so upset about the idea of the brain being chemicals? It's nothing to sperg out about.
>>1001287
I suppose you're the one who defines degeneracy..
>>1004425
Because its an autistic oversimplification that would be laughed at by anyone who studies neurology
>>1004430
So what else other than chemicals is the brain supposedly made up of?
>>1004425
Its not that the brain is chemicals, that is simple a scientific fact.
Its the fact that you call it "just" chemicals, implying its composition degrades its value, which is not a scientific fact, it is a value-judgment you are making based on that scientific fact in combination with your ignorant viewpoint that an object being material means it is less valuable, or falling into the trap of mysticism, where you think simply knowing what a thing is composed of degrades its value.
No one gives a shit about the brain being what it is, namely, a complex machine made of chemicals and gray matter. What people get pissed as all hell about, is unphilosphical STEMfags not realizing that all the associations and evaluations that go along with that fact are not native to that fact, but rather simply their emotional response to said fact based on the dumb as all hell culture they're created.
You saying "All value systems are the same because the brain is chemicals, pleasure is as pleasure does" is not a scientific statement, its a philosophical statement you are trying [badly] to justify with science.
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>1004446
Electric impulses for one you fucking mongoloid
>>1004458
So chemicals and electricity then?
Why are you so bent out of shape?
>>1004494
Unless you're willing to make the claim that literally everything in the universe made of atoms is chemicals, that's not all.
>>1004497
Ok, matter is made up of atoms.
>arguing about definitions
>>1001152
Unless you've got a vast inherited fortune or something, you aren't going to be able to sustain a really worthwhile hedonistic life for any length of time.
99.9% of hedonists either end up bankrupt and miserable because cocaine and whores are expensive, or they limit themselves to pleb-tier pleasures like vidya and porn.
ITT: people use a pop-culture definition of hedonism and have never read Epicurus.
Get out.
>>1004081
>you don't get to redefine it
>I'm using the definition that is only 800 years old to describe a 2600 year old philosophy
>>1001393
your al right
>>1004291
but to achieve long term goals and thus meaning you must give up on short term goals. Do I go out tonight or prepare for this essay? Don't say stuff like checkmate, it crates a hostile atmosphere
A combination of Christian ethics, and a misunderstanding of what hedonism (the idea that pleasure is a good you should seek out) actually entails.
>>1001243
no it is not.
>>1006194
Do you pursue them because you enjoy their completion?
Ultimately, hedonism is a pretty big part of our psychology and neurology due to the way our brain awards us for experiences and accomplishments.
