What is the best C replacement?
>>54861412
Actually Learning how to use C correctly is the best C replacement.
>>54861455
C is terribly designed
>>54861472
while(1)
{printf("\t\tNo it is not\n");
}
>>54861412
Guile scheme with C extensions.
c cant even do web development
>>54861590
Yes it can
>>54861590
you could, but it's not very sane
C++14
>>54861562
having to usea->b
instead of just
*a.b
because someone fucked up the operator precedence isn't bad design?
how about fucking half of the standard library being unsafe?
whose amazing idea were NUL-terminated strings?
unsigned is so broken that you're pretty much better of not using it at all
header files
there's whole books of "C puzzles" that are mostly based on weird, unexpected behavior
>>54861562
Unknown function printf(); failed to compile.
>>54861687
shouldnt it be a^.b then like in pascal? (cant use postfix * because conflict with multiply)
>>54861412
Nothing can realistically replace C right now. I'm not sure anything ever can. Out of the options you listed, Rust is the best and it will find its own niche (large, complex apps that really need to be memory-safe).
>>54861455
C has shit support for concurrency
>>54861864
> <threads.h>
>>54861412
Go is the best straight-up-compile-to-a-binary -easy-to-deploy replacement for C. It's also easy to pick up if you already know C. It's fast, extremely easy to implement concurrency and parallelism, and has a great community and the 2nd biggest tech company in the world backing it.
inb4 "MUH GENERICS"
>>54861687
C behaviours aren't unexpected, it's just that it can get really complicated and people are stupid. Everyone wants a Fisher-Price language like Python or Ruby and that's fine. C isn't for everything.
>>54861930
>uaing a non-oop language in 2016
>>54861665
Agree.
>>54861412
>Rustpub fn from_bytes(bytes: &'a [u8]) -> IResult<&'a [u8], C<'a>> { ... }
> Nim
Hey let's make C with python syntax!
> Crystal
Hey let's make C with Ruby syntax!
> Rust
Hey let's make C with shit syntax!
> Go
Hey let's make you learn my syntax!
>>54861590
It's pretty young, but looks into WASM. It's a generic assembler language for use in web applications. Currently C can compile to it with some fiddling.
Go, anyone who says otherwise is obviously a junior developer
none of the above
>>54861412
Only one of these doesn't use a GC by default.
Only one of these doesn't require a runtime.
Only one of these is even remotely fast enough to get the title.
Only one of these is an actually good language.
Only one of these is rust.
Ada or Go
>>54861687
Developers HAVE to be competent to develop in C, the safety check is the dev work, when you're doing high-performance or low-level stuff, you can't have a garbage collector at runtime or a boundary check you lose too much.
>>54864571
managing memory isnt an all inclusive test for competency, some gcs are fast enough for most anything.
>>54861412
>Go
>2.3MB for hello world
Holy shit you can't make this shit up.
>>54861687
a->b looks cooler desu
>>54864805
>runs on any machine without any dependencies
>can be stripped smaller
>>54861412
D will be more viable once they finally separate GC from Phobos
>>54861412
Plan9 C
>>54861412
Go tbqh mate. Ethereum code is written fully in go.
>>54861412
Also
https://github.com/Vild/PowerNex
>>54861412
C is the best replacement for C.
Or don't be a cia Nigger and make your own compiler you fucktwat
>>54863346
what of it?
>>54862318
> > Go
> Hey let's make you learn my syntax!
Hey let's make C with Oberon-2 syntax.
You would have thought the fact that one of the Go inventors was also one of the main Oberon researchers would have provided a clue. You would have also thought that the fact the Go language specification mentions this would have been another big fucking clue.
Pic related, he invented Pascal, Modula-2, and Oberon.
Is it a good idea to rewrite Linux kernel in, let's say, in Go? Then how Go is a C replacement?
>>54861412
Rust is the future
>>54861574
this and only this
>>54865147
It would be an excellent idea to rewrite the linux kernel in rust, on the other hand.
>>54865242
Guile scheme is dogshit. It's chuckfull of bugs and holes, its GC is absolutely disgusting and leaks boatloads of memory, and it's slow as fuck. Pretty sure it's limited to green threads, too.
>>54865286
Honestly I only read that it was a scheme implementation, which is the thing that I care for
I always though Go was a meme. I'm thinking on picking up a small programming project to do on my free time but I only know basic C. Will pickup Go
>>54865451
If you want a good scheme implementation, there's chicken. Racket is a contender but it also has significant issues, mostly in the typed-racket subset.
>>54865455
Go is 100% a meme.
Go seems to have exploded onto the scene and then died almost as quickly, I legitimately thought it was going to replace Node.js for a while.
>>54865545
People started using it instead of blindly shilling it and that was the result.
>>54865545
it died? It's still being used
>>54865639
C# now makes it to the front page of HN more often
>>54861412
Swift of course, duh
>>54861412
As much as I love D, it's out of the question because of the garbage collector. Yes, you can use D without it, but a lot of the standard library doesn't work without it.
Go's out because it's painfully restrictive, and also has a slow (but it's getting faster now) garbage collector.
What language does the 3rd emblem represent?
C will last as long as Assembly, just accept it.
>>54865936
and so will javascript
>>54864805
As with >>54864877, the answer is that it contains the Go libraries within the executable.
I don't know about you, but I like that trade-off. It's convenient as hell to be able to run the same binaries everywhere.
>>54865953
>the answer is that it contains the Go libraries within the executable.
what if the libraries change? or get a CVE and need patching? Do you recompile and redistribute every Go program? How does this scale?
>>54865934
It's nim. A complete and utter meme. So memetic that hello_world, helloWorld and HelloWorld refer to the exact same token in that language.
>>54865975
Good question. I have no answer.
All I know is that for me, I like the convenience. Constrasting with trying to deploy Ruby and having the same library/setup on every machine.
>>54865977
First time I've heard of nim. I'm guessing the language is some new shit the kiddies are into, which'll then get abandoned as everyone realizes the old tech either was better?
>>54865271
Ehhh... Not really. A Linux executable-compatible OS in Rust, sure (in fact, seL4 is doing just that for the userspace) , but not Linux itself. Linux relies way too heavily on C-specific constructs to be able to replace components of it piecewise with Rust.
rust. if you don't see the beauty in type safety, you're not smart enough to be programming
>>54865977
>hello_world, helloWorld and HelloWorld refer to the exact same token in that language
Holy shit that sounds fucking terrifying...
>>54866290
You'd better inform Linus then
>>54866338
Or maybe nim is rescuing is from in_consistent CoDing stanDards?
>>54866363
Virtually everything linus says about anything is wrong. His only credentials to begin with is that he kickstarted linux and git, but the truth is the community built all of it.
>>54866486
go fish with your rancid b8 somewhere else >>>/hn/
>>54861966
>C behaviours aren't unexpected
except for when they're undefined, of course
>>54863300
this
rust is the only remotely viable candidate
everyone knows it
>>54862168
>>54863346
you clearly haven't read much source code
>>54861412
Rust.
Followed by Go for easier development.
Nim and D are meme tier.
>>54864571
>the safety check is the dev work, when you're doing high-performance or low-level stuff, you can't have a garbage collector
r u s t
u
s
t
>>54864898
>>54862318
>> Rust
>Hey let's make C with shit syntax!
>>54866444
sO we LEt PeOPLe GET aWay With This????
>>54864805
implying disk space is important to google when all of their Go programs run in data centers
>>54865975
my distro offers a new version of the package and i install it? if its my code then its my responsibility to patch anyway
>>54864877
>runs on any machine
How can I run it on a cheap Cortex M0 microcontroller with only a few kB ram? Rust can do this.
Rust is the only true C replacement. It's not a systems language unless it runs on bare metal, with no forced garbage collection, and supports inline assembly.
>>54867353
C was never intended to support inline assembly.
Nim isn't thaaaaat bad...
>>54867353
Can you try to sell Rust on me, Anon? I've been hearing more and more about it lately, and it seems to be right up my alley, as a C++ programmer of 10 years.
I also really like D, but fuck. As multiple people have pointed-out, the GC is a deal-breaker. I hope that if I learn Rust, it can offer the same sexiness I like in D, yet low-level like you've described.
>>54867353
Yea sorry pal I thought it was understood we are talking about real architectures. Enjoy your toy language.
>>54867686
Can you tell me about Nim? I heard the name all the time, but I have no idea what that shit's about?
Is it anything serious to consider or eventually look into, or is it just a toy language?
>>54867725
the gc isn't a deal breaker you're just a moron, don't allocate every 5s and specify @nogc in functions that you don't want the gc to run in and its fucking fine
>>54867745
Thanks anon. I am actually a moron. I was imbibing the "but std library needs GC" meme, but haven't even tried to use D in a context where GC would be a problem. Pretty stupid of me to do that shit.
>>54867778
np senpai start coding in D it will change your life
>>54867804
You have no idea how badly I want the D.
>>54867737
It's got the same problem that D and the rest have obviously, and that is adoption. The language itself isn't terrible, though. It's as that other poster said, C with Python syntax
We should have Forth on every computer in ROM.
Forth is amazing. Join us.
>>54865977
Well, it would help with the problem of using libraries with mutually inconsistent naming practices.
>>54861665
this
>>54861590
>Implying
https://wakaba.dhcp.io/
Holy C
>>54867725
Rust is a non-pure functional programming language with the speed and footprint of C. it also supports procedural programming as well as smalltalk-style OOP.
It's heavily ML-inspired, and also features dylan-style macros (i.e. scheme macros for c-style syntax'd languages). It has immutability by default (you must hold a 'mut' reference to something to modify it) and the compiler is excellent with most error messages, even pointing out candidates for imports when a symbol isn't available in the program in its current state, for example.
More importantly, the borrow checker means that memory-related errors simply can't happen in rust, even though no GC or ref count is used by default.
>>54861412
WTF. How is R a replacement for C?
>>54865494
Have you tried Gambit scheme?
>>54866168
More like the new shit that is better than the legacy alternatives, but never gains enough momentum to be worth breaking backwards compatibility.
>>54865953
>>54864877
according to the guys at sta.li a statically linked helloworld in C (= contains dependencies and runs anywhere) is 7kb. Meaning this is no excuse.
>>54861726
Are you that retarded?
>>54871818
is it expression based?
>>54861412
Why not just use C++ you lazy wanker?
>>54871958
You have to include a whole GC in the statically compiled binary for go because go is garbage.
On that note, ykw, this is where the shit is going to fucking down. I'm tired of FUCKING IDIOTS EVERYWHERE who can't understand how to use C/C++ properly. Apparently, not even /g/ is free from these half-wits.
I haven't known how to write programs for more than 3 years now and C/C++ is a fucking breeze. Now I'm programming with OpenGL (just picked it up a couple months ago) and I'm doing crazy weird shit like mixing that with Midi language playback/parsing and drawing FUCKING FONTS with freetype. For chrissake, I feel like I am summoning the soul of Dennis Ritchie over here every goddamn day.
>You'll cowards don't even smoke crack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsfnuyyjaB0
>>54872131
>make the most hideous, inefficient, buggy, unmaintainable, leaky programs imaginable
>thinks he's a C expert
toppest kek!
>>54871979
yes
>>54872131
>Apparently, not even /g/
hello, Summer
>>54861412
c++14 or rust if you're gay.
>>54861412
For a language to replace C, it has to fulfil these requirements:
>must work not only on Linux, OS X and Windows, but on also the BSDs and Cygwin and in freestanding environments
>must work without garbage collection
>must work without a runtime, or with a very minimal runtime (for example, most C compilers require functions like memcpy() and alloca() to be present, even if the rest of the C standard library is absent)
>must work without any C libraries, compilers or tools (otherwise you haven't replaced C)
>must be possible to use explicit SIMD (see the proposed JavaScript APIs for this)
>must be possible to build an operating system with it
>must be possible to build Windows device drivers, Linux kernel modules and OS X kexts with it
>must be possible to build dynamic libraries that are usable from C
>must be possible to build static libraries that are usable from C
>must be possible to use C static libraries
>must be possible to directly call into COM and COM-like libraries on Windows
>must be possible to implement COM interfaces
>a single statically-linked "Hello world" binary must not be larger than 1MB, and should preferrably be a lot smaller
>must be able to disable memory safety (like in C# and Rust's unsafe blocks) in order to use OS APIs that require pointer manipulation
>must actually be a better programming language than C. (Having memory safety doesn't automatically make it better. C is really a tough target to beat. It's simple, easy to reason with, proven in large codebases, etc.)
You really have to have ALL of these in the same language to compete with C. People write libraries in C because it's the lowest common denominator that fits all these use cases, so the same C library can be used for example in a Windows DLL and an embedded device. Rust is almost there, but I think its Hello World is still fuckhuge and it's questionable that this >>54862168 is actually better than C.
>>54872197
Well, my programs are efficient, stable, maintainable, and solid, but I never said I was a C expert. However, if I can learn C in a year without anyone really telling me what to do, then what the fuck kind of excuse does anyone on this board have for not being able to program C?
Also, nigga plz, that's some classic self-projection right there: very descriptive of your own follies.
>>54861978
Go away pajeet
>>54872257
No, ykw, I didn't even show up here for a long time because I thought that you guys were the shit, but you're not even shit.
>>54861412
java
>>54872313
see: >>54872307
>>54872293
It's significantly better than C, objectively speaking. After all, the equivalent C would be the same but with 30 bugs that are impossible in the rust version as the type signature indicates.
>>54872294
>Well, my programs are efficient, stable, maintainable, and solid,
Found the king of the mount stupid hill!
I don't think it will be replaced because it doesn't need to be replaced; it will be succeeded.
It's a beautiful language, but with the amount of memory and computing power we have, functional programming is the way to go since it scales to more cores more easily.
>>54872312
>>54872294
>Well, my programs are efficient, stable, maintainable, and solid
>However, if I can learn C in a year
It is clear you are new
>>54872371
>>54872386
No, you two are just trying way too hard to fit in with the cool kids.
>>54872363
>it's the "every line of C code has six million bugs" meme
Go back to Hacker News. The other problem with C replacements is that they're written by language weenies who think C is the devil and refuse to understand why people like C for practical applications. Again, Rust is the least bad in this regard, since it's being developed alongside a program that solves a fairly important practical problem (HTML rendering,) but I'm still not fully convinced.
>>54872399
>>54861455
Wrong noise on the book cover/RMS poster compared to the rest of the image.
Nice shoppin' m8.
>>54872417
Nobody likes C. There's a reason everyone, even embedded devs, moved on to C++. Ctards like yourself have been on suicide watch for a while already. With the advent of rust, it's even worse.
>>54872421
Dude get your newfag emojis out of my sight.
>>54865026
>invented 2 of my favourite languages
what a hero
>>54865494
Go isn't a meme, it's very hobby language. Don't expect to use it in production though, even google don't.
One of the modules I wrote and maintain at work is written in Go, it works great and it was quite fun but I'm the only person in the company that can maintain it. I'm sure others could if they learned, but nobody else has the impetus.
>>54861687
NUL-terminated strings aren't always bad
how is unsigned broken?
you don't need to use header files
you don't need to use unsafe functions
>>54861412
rust is great
>no gc
>raai
>algebraic types
but borrowing takes a while to get used to
>>54861412
HolyC
>>54872520
s/raai/raii
>>54872520
You effectively do need to use header files and every function is unsafe in C so you do need to use them unless you want to rewrite the entire standard library at which point you still have to use them through other people's code anyway.
Null-terminated strings are objectively always bad.
>>54872439
>There's a reason everyone, even embedded devs
>even embedded devs
lmao
>>54872294
>However, if I can learn C in a year without anyone really telling me what to do, then what the fuck kind of excuse does anyone on this board have for not being able to program C?
Learning C is easy.
Learning how to write good C is not.
How many of your programs have left your hard disk?
>>54872576
Ctard on suicide watch confirmed!
>>54872439
>>54872588
Your subhuman level trolling really amazes me.
>>54872576
>Acccchtually
You can use C++ even in very constrained devices, think a few kb of ram, just don't use all of C++ features. Use C++ as C with classes and you will be fine generally speaking.
>>54872584
Working on releasing one right now, first one I ever felt comfortable with. It's a beaut.
>>54872439
Yeah, this is a funny joke too. The Linux kernel, Nginx, Postgres, Redis, OpenSSL, libpng, libvorbis, libflac, libdaala, libx264, VLC, FFmpeg, CPython, Ruby, Lua, libuv and 90% of the software you'd find in a vanilla Linux distribution are all written in C. You'd have to be retarded to promote an alternative to C and not ask yourself why these projects chose C over C++ (or why some of the older ones have not yet """"upgraded"""" to C++.) Developers of low-level system libraries tend to love C. This is the market that C alternatives have to understand in order to succeed.
>>54872629
>Working on releasing one right now
What is it?
>>54861412
Forth.
>>54872643
Honestly it's something I'd rather not discuss, not right now, unfortunately. It's based on some private research I've been working for 3 years, hence why I won't talk about it to someone I don't know. I'll definitely talk to you about it if you sign an NDA, lol. But I'll be posting some videos of it soon, to attract interest to the project and hopefully get some funding behind it, with enough funding I could just make working on this my job.
Once again, I'm sorry I can't talk about it but... this is accessible by everyone, no accountability, no justice for me if someone walks away with my work. Working with this stuff has been making me paranoid (I actually talked to a dude who may have been with the gov and he told me they knew what I was doing, I'm fucking spooped).
But other than that, it's 3000+ lines and pretty much finished for a beta release, just have to make a GUI for pleb users (because apparently a console text interface just doesn't cut it for the software retail market XD
Oh and remember how I said I wasn't an Expert with C? Yeah it only works with Winblows, which is unfortunately the OS that I work best with, for now.
>>54872757
>>>/tumblr/
>>54872637
They chose C because they were written in the early 90's, or rely on early 90's software, retard. It's not rocket science. Next thing you'll say is that java is the best language ever made.
>>54872766
>>54872238
it's not you fag I checked
freaking statements, heavily ml my ass
>>54872791
Lmao butthurt. Keep fuding I'm sure it'll make people use hasklel or whatever meme you're peddling.
>>54872757
>it's 3000+ lines
So it's a toy.
>>54872775
Yeah, that explains why a video codec (libdaala) that started development in 2013, has no dependencies, and must use original algorithms to dodge patents, chose C (you retard.)
>>54872809
No. I didn't spend 3 years researching esoteric shit to make a toy.
>>54872811
The fact that nobody uses it nor knows about it says a lot.
>>54861978
>still using oop in 2016
>>54872822
t. pajeet the toy maker from tumblr.
>>54872826
Have you heard of Mozilla? They're developing it. What a pity they didn't choose their own language to develop it in. Maybe if you put your mind to it, you could figure out why.
>>54872766
>>54872836
samefag
>>54872837
Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of your butthurt.
>>54872866
>I have ran out of arguments
>>54872822
I mean, no offense, but you are the one extolling the virtues of C in this thread. And your life's work is a 3k line program? Better to be this groundbreaking research shit (what is it, a nanokernel?), otherwise you are full of it.
>>54872877
Well, I'll look forward to your support when it's released, then.
>>54861726
Actually, a C compiler will look for a replacement in the standard libs automatically. Unlike a C++ compiler.
>>54861892
>relying on C11
>>54861778
this
>>54861412
Why even list golang and nim there? It's more in the Crystal lang ballpark.
>>54872837
>Maybe if you put your mind to it, you could figure out why.
Because Rust was still highly experimental back in 2013? 1.0 was May 2015.
>>54872791
https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/functions.html
>This reveals two interesting things about Rust: it is an expression-based language, and semicolons are different from semicolons in other ‘curly brace and semicolon’-based languages. These two things are related.
Checkmate, ctards.
>>54872969
So why not C++?
>>54872984
Because you need a C api to create bindings for other languages.
>>54873024
C++ can make libraries that have C APIs. Quite a few C++ libraries expose a C API.
>>54873053
By writing C on top of the C++, tard.
>>54872775
Because it is
>>54873097
POO
IN
LOO
>>54873089
No, by using extern "C", fampai.
It's pretty natural too, since C++ and C share most of their primitive types. All you have to do is write a flat API that doesn't expose any C++ classes (you can hide references to your classes inside an opaque C/C++ struct.)
Even so, quite a lot of new portable libraries still use C. How odd.
>>54873127
I see you're talking out of your ass again. Didn't your doctor give you medicine for that?
>>54873127
>No, by using extern "C", fampai.
Not him, but, same thing.
>It's pretty natural too, since C++ and C share most of their primitive types. All you have to do is write a flat API that doesn't expose any C++ classes
And templates. And namespaces. Among other things.
>>54873156
Using extern "C" is nothing like "writing C on top of the C++." It just changes how it's linked. The code you write in your API functions is still C++. I'm fairly sure it's not even technically necessary on most platforms.
>>54873156
Not to mention ABI issues.
>>54873127
>It's pretty natural too
Then why don't more libraries export C api if it's so easy.
Don't know about what's the situation whit other fields but at least for game engines and related stuff there is almost never C api.
For example any engine written in C++, most physics engine whit ODE and newton dynamics being exceptions.
>>54873185
You're wrong. "extern C" blocks disable a lot of name mangling features which a lot of C++ features depend on.
>but it werks on muh microsoft compiler
That's because there is actually no microsoft C compiler that mimics to be a C compiler in the least successful way.
>>54873272
* but a half-assed C++ compiler, that...
>>54873272
Only in the function signature, not the function body. Yeah, extern "C" functions can't be templated or overloaded, but if they could, they obviously wouldn't be compatible with things that expect a C API.
>>54873239
It depends on where you look. For low-level system libraries, I/O libraries, databases, multimedia codecs, etc. the ones written in C++ pretty commonly export a C API. In areas where C++ dominates, there's no need, but "C replacements" pretty much by definition are not targeting the areas where C++ already dominates.
C++
>>54863300
>D
>not fast
>>54867353
*Inline* assembly is deprecated as fuck.
>>54870169
This is the only correct answer.
>>54870169
Another pizza stream when?
>>54861412
You can't really use Go as a C replacement because of the garbage collector but it's really good as a PHP replacement.
>>54865680
>C# now makes it to the front page of HN more often
Microsoft dev have to write a blog about their works with C#. They are basically shills at this point.
Just playing around with Go. It's fun to use so far.
Not sure how good it would be for large projects but you do get the occasional company saying "we handle 6 million squilion connections per second using Go".
C a best desu
>>54873335
Rust is a C/C++ drop-in-ish replacement.
It is meant to be used where C++ dominates.
