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Founders Edition runs around 87 degrees under load. RIP NVIDIA
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Founders Edition runs around 87 degrees under load.

RIP NVIDIA COMPUTER FIRES HERE WE COME
>>
>>54598308
Source?
>>
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Fermi 2.0
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>>54598391
Jesus Christ. I won't be buying this card now.
>>
>>54598391
holy shit
>>
>>54598391
LITERAL
FUCKING
HOUSEFIRE
>>
>>54598391
>Higher is better
>>
>>54598391
That's a nice housefire.
>>
>>54598391
Who forgot to give complimentary rubles to the Russians?
>>
>>54598391
>lower temps in red
>higher temps in green
>>
So, why would anyone buy a reference card?
>>
>>54598538
Atleast they've got some free 1080 Heater for the upcoming winter
>>
>>54598548
nvidia made it seem like founders edition wasn't reference and that it their genius design that could pass off as an official card, and made it seem it was perfect in every way

looks like they can't make coolers for jack shit as well as the aftermarket
>>
Uh ive been waiting 2 years to build a mew pc. My first self built gaming PC, not a shit hand-me-down like my current one. I really had my heart set on the 1070. It comes out at a perfect time for me financially, and is really fucking nice.


Should I just dodge the 1000 series entirely?
>>
>>54598584
When are the partners cards due out? I mean fucking reference as that temp. Jesus Christ.
>>
>>54598391
That's Furmark ya retard.
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>>54598601
just get an aftermarket card like a normal person
>>
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>>54598548
Stealth technology
>>
>>54598601
No just wait for a release with an aftermarket cooler.
>>
>>54598601
Buy the 1080 without a doubt if you got the money to burn, just don't buy Founders.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WAIT FOR THE PARTNER CARDS WITH COOLERS
>>
>>54598602
Probably within a few weeks of launch. They'll be even more expensive though, unless you're looking at even shittier, plastic blowers. 'Premium' editions like the Classified will probably tip the $900 mark.
>>
>>54598391
HAHAHAH
DOA
O
A
>>
>>54598547
Red is AMD and green is NVIDIA.

That's how it always has been.
>>
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THE FIRE RISES

I was ready to buy Founders, but I have to wait for coolers.
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>>54598548
Because they aren't reference cards any longer, they're "founders editions" now, get with the times gramps.

>>54598558
boom baby
>>
>muh 2.5 jigguhurtz
ayy lmao
novideo is finished
>>
If the founders Edition is this hot, what will the normal Stock cooler be like?
>>
Im pretty new to building PCs and shit, help me out with this. Whats the difference between Reference and Aftermarket? Does aftermarket mean its a changed version after initial release or something?

Why dont any of you buy the 1070 instead if this 1080 looks like such a meme now?

I think the 1070 still looks bretty gud tbqh
>>
>buying a reference card
Why not wait for EVGA or Gigabyte? Hell I bet someone will come up with some retarded CLC system.
>>
>>54598729
is the stock cooler a blower? then it's fucked as well
nothing good ever comes of buying reference cards, not nvidia, not amd
>>
>>54598751
Aftermarket is usually the reference design with a new fancy cooler on and more overclocking options.
>>
>>54598729
The """""Founders Edition""""" is just the stock cooler. They just gave it a new name so that they could charge more for it, knowing that retarded gaymers eat that shit up. Every review today has made it clear that there's nothing special about it at all, with no binned chips or anything.
>>
>>54598729
Can go as low as -20C full load, but average at maybe -7C. depending on manufacturer.

Might benefit getting liquid cooler setup like the Fury X honestly.
>>
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>>54598751
Aftermarket means somebody like EVGA or Sapphire slapped on a custom cooler that runs better than anything Nvidia or AMD can come up with. You can also put your own cooler in, there's some faggot on /g/ using two massive morpheus fans or whatever to cool his r9 290x for example.
>>
>>54598810
Most decent aftermarket cards have a completely custom PCB too, with extra power phases to facilitate higher overclocks (in theory). Some of the cheaper brands just slap a different cooler on the reference PCB and call it a day.

>>54598834
You do get aftermarket coolers even worse than the stock cooler though. Cheap, plastic blower-style cards designed to be the cheapest edition on the market usually.
>>
Linus's review said the card was running cool, these fucking russians probably have it in a small poorly ventilated case.
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>>54598860
Yeah, that's why I said usually unless you buy shit like Asus AMD gpus compared to Sapphire or even gigabyte.
>>
87 is that bad? Why would a company release a card that hot? Who would buy that card?
>>
>>54598674
>this isn't even the 2100+ it's supposed to run at
Haha holy shit
>>
>>54598918

At that temperature it will start to thermal throttle and downclock so take a guess.
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>>54598906
Linus temps
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>>54598906
>>54598951
system power draw
>>
>>54598906
Linus is and always was a shill for whatever company gave him the most parts.
>>
>>54598951
>no clock speeds
>>
>>54598391
>104

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
>>
>>54598951
>82
>good

What are you smoking?
>>
>>54598391
DESIGNATED
O
O
DOO IN LOO
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>>54598308
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>>54598951
>Linus
Every time
>>
104 °C LOOOOOOOLLLLL
>NVIDIA 1080°C HOUSEFIRE NUKE HOUSE EDITION
>>
>>54599000
>mfw
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>>54599000
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1080 HOT CHEETOS MAGMA EDITION
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>>54598601
Too early to say, plus it'll be like a month after release when reasonably priced versions come out. I'd just wait for polaris to come out and get benchmarked, THEN make the decision.
>>
Why call it 1080? Because it can potentially reach 1080 degrees C?
>>
>>54598987
>4k
>Max settings

Come on man
>>
Hot Card
Summer in the city
Back of my case getting hot and gritty
>>
>>54599046
1080degrees c edition

new meme i like it
>>
>>54599072
>still no clock speeds
Kinda important
>>
My R9 290 can get to 90c under load and I run it for hours and hours at a time with no problems or housefires

You all fell for this stupid fucking meme.
>>
>>54599123
What the fuck are you doing that you get 90c under load? When I still had my r9 290 it never went over 70C under load.
>>
>>54599097
I agree but if I can get a card that can play games at max settings without touching triple digits I'm fine with it considering this is only a reference card.
>>
>>54599073
Okay, I laughed.
>>
If I'm gaming in 1080p with a case housing 3 180mm intake fans blowing one the GPU.

Can I get away with defense card?
>>
>>54599209

Sure. you can set the fan curve to be a turbine to get the temps down.
>>
>>54599243
I'm asking seriously man. Come on.
>>
>>54599073
POSTed, ready, fans tweaked, palms are sweaty.
There's warnings on his speccy already, he spills spaghetti.

He's nervous, but on the boards appears calm and ready. To defend, shill, pretend, but he keeps forgetting

Snap right back to Fermi, (oh) house fire two point (oh) we are never gonna let it go (oh)

You only got woodcrews to (hold!) you card together, better remember Fermi, yo...
>>
>>54599305

I am answering honestly, The card still need to suck that air in so you have to kick up the speed to get a benefit of the added airflow.
>>
AMD HOUSEFIRES CARDS RUN AT 95C
>>
>>54599337
not him but ive run my pc's with no sides on them since 2009 because every gpu since has been a fucking housefire aftermarket or no
>mfw my 770 got clogged with dust and was a literal heater for my feet
felt comfy tho and sounded hilarious windforce is fucking LOUD
>>
>>54599525

Well, sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
>>
>>54599474
Albeit 2nd Gen clocks, with shit tdp, and terrible reference coolers.

This thing should be running half that, with first gen clocks and a supposedly superior cooler
>>
>>54599538
temps where unaffected strangely it topped out at 70degrees all the same

literal mini housefire that card
>>
>>54598466
lel
>>
Oh ok.

So

I buy the 1070

And none of this is a problem!

Wow guys literal rocket sience. I swear this board gets fucking denser by the day.
>>
>>54598308
Why does it matter? Is that hot enough to damage the chip?
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>>54599753
<citation needed>
>>
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>>54599753
>I'll just buy the 1070
>Nvidia is just the best, aren't they?
>Wow, what a deal!
>What do you mean "just get Fury, it's cheaper and performs better?"
>What am I? A cuck?
>>
>>54599753
Damn you folded too easily
>>
>>54598391
>104°C
>219.2°F
>383K

WE DON'T NEED POLARIS LET THE NOVIDEA BURN

BURN NOVIDEA

BURN
>>
>>54599753
Enjoy your 7.5gb + 0.5gb vRam anon.
>>
>>54598964
>less power
>more heat

NOVIDEA DEFIES THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS!
>>
This is almost as bonkers as the reference 290X
>>
>>54599307
UNDERRATED
>>
>>54600110
My 290x doesnt even Hit more than 70C
>>
>>54598674
>die shrink
>literally within the error of margin
Just an OC'd maxwell. Everybody go home.
>>
>>54598308
I'm kind of feeling nostalgic for a housefire card. Somehow it feels more authentic.
>>
>lying about clock speeds
>lying about temperature
>lying about rop/ram
>lying lying lying
fucking christ how are they not bankrupt
>>
>>54598308
>87 degrees
what's the problem?
>>
>>54600480
Nvidia showcased it to be 67C at full load AND at 2.1ghz core speed.

Benchmarks show it easily reaches above 85 at 1.8ghz i.e. more nvidia lies.
>>
>>54599525
You remind me of my faggot neighbor who watercools his stock 8350 with the side panel off and all 6 fans in the PC running 100% 24/7, talks about getting a 9590 instead of overclocking, and uses a 960 to game at 1440p

tl;dr retarded as fuck
>>
>>54598391
Fell the Bern
>>
>>54600647
What's the problem? Are you saying these temps are okay?
>>
>>54599753
It's not a problem with the 1080.

Autists get their panties in a wad when they see numbers of 80 and do not have the ability to understand the operating temperature of a GPU is relative to the hardware.

I ran a Fermi card at 90 c for years. No issues. Because that's what it was designed to do.
>>
>>54600667
>too stupid to clean the dust out every other month
>complains about housefires

I bet you buy reference cards.
>>
>nvidia releases monster gpus
>they are space heaters
>shortly after their release nvidia announces their beginnings in the watercooling ind
So it begins.
>>
>>54600709
I ran a q6700 at stock with the fan off for two weeks crunching trips years and years ago just to see what would happen

It sat at 102C the entire time without throttling. Overclocked to 3.4Ghz just the same afterwards
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>>54598391
>>
Let's see what Logan and company have to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPBgsWlm4sA

Haven't watched it yet
>>
>>54599525
>every gpu since 2009 has been a fucking housefire
>my 770 got clogged with dust and was a literal heater for my feet

You are the type of people who make me sick.

>ive run my pc's with no sides on them since 2009
THEN GET AN AIRY CASE YOU RETARD.
no
don't
this is fake
>You are bait
You got me.......
>>
>>54598308
Founders edition? More like Foundry edition.
>>
>>54600917
god fucking damn it carlos
>>
>>54598951
Linus shills nvidia so hard that you can safely disregard the info her puts out.
>>
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So how the fuck did Nvidia claim to have pulled this off?

Did they run it under LN2 or something?
>>
>>54600956
It was only running in 1080 and the frame rate was locked to 60 fps for that segment. When they unlocked the FPS they didn't show the temps.
>>
>>54600396
that's temps, not fps
>>
>>54600980
This. Plus a carefully temperature-controlled room.
>>
>>54600849
and the games

https://youtu.be/-Vd0_W03ork
>>
Just install water cooling dude :)
>>
>>54601021
So basically just get a fucking 980ti for $500 after the price drops, or wait until 1080ti. If AMD pulls something halfway decent out of their ass I'll probably buy that instead.
>>
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>>54600917
>>
I JUST WANTED A NEW GAMING PC TO PLAY DARK SOULS 3 AND OTHER NEW SHIT

THE 1070 WAS MY BEST FUCKING CHANCE AT A GOOD PC AND CARD FOR A LOW PRICE

WHAT THE FUCK REEEEEEEEE
>>
>>54598308
>>54598951
>>54598674
>>54600956

Msi anr evga liquid cooling is gonna have a field day.

A) Why does the new 16nm finfet architecture pull the same power and generate the same heat as maxwell?

B) Will hbm2 run this card cooler?

C) would you upgrade to full pascal from titan x?
-
>>
>trying to upgrade my computer because cpu shit itself
>check /g/ for some info
>see this

worriedlaughter.jpg

whats a good operating temp? im shopping for cpu and maybe get a new gpu and see that there different thermal design power for cpu of 91w an 65w. not sure how hot those get.
>>
>>54601467
>whats a good operating temp?
60 to 75C under load is good for Intel CPUs with an aftermarket cooler, never mind liquid cooling
laptops with Intel can reach up to 90C+ and can fry eggs
I don't know about AMD CPUs and I'm waiting for Zen
>>
>>54601439
>Why does the new 16nm finfet architecture pull the same power and generate the same heat as maxwell?
It pulls less power, but reference coolers have always ran hot. I'm sure 3rd party cards will run much cooler like they always do, and for cheaper with better overclocking

I literally don't know why anyone would buy an overpriced hot running "founders edition" card

>Will hbm2 run this card cooler?
Probably, it uses a ton less power than GDDR5

>would you upgrade to full pascal from titan x?
Like the 1080ti? I think most people will, especially if it has 8gb of HBM2

The 1080 is mildly impressive, but I think the 1080ti will be very impressive, assuming we get the extra bandwidth from HBM2 and they can clock it higher with better yields
>>
>>54601508
well fuck man. wanted to get skylake cpu but that is 91w.
>>
>>54601567
>wanted to get skylake cpu but that is 91w
So?
>>
>supposed to use barely any power for a gpu
>still a housefire
BRAVO NVIDIA
>>
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>>54601567
Devil's canyon pulls more wattage. 91w isn't anything to worry about for desktop PCs. You want good temperatures, invest in an aftermarket cooler.
>>
>>54601840
>reference cooler
>>
So much for Nvidia's new "more efficient" cooler design. What a joke.
>>
>>54598308
>founders edition
>costs 100$ more
>took the reference cooler, made it look awful
>strictly worse cooling than aftermarket coolers
>nvidia expects sales
>>
>>54602009
They will sell a lot. Don't underestimate the retardation of the game industry's audience. It's been downhill since 2008.
>>
>>54601567
>wanted to get skylake cpu but that is 91w
What's your point?
>>
>>54602084
He thinks temperature is tied to power draw.
>>
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Guys, the 1080 uses less power than the 980. Look at this graph, it clearly shows "GTX 980" more right than "GTX 1080".
>>
>>54598391
>https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/464751/thoughts-about-fermi-temp/
So this is GPU history in the making,glad to see it.
>>
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>>54602132
>>
>>54602132
Houston planet 1080 is out of orbit.
>>
>>54598308
I expected this.
>>
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>>54601923

What's your cooler?100i gtx @ 4.8
>>
>>54598630
Already announced that third party vendors evga/Asus/Msi already will have their cards ready and will be launching along with the founders. Plus the msrp will be 599 so expect 600-650 for the first round of non xxx hardcore led models.
>>
Just watercool it, where's the problem ?
>>
>>54602217
cpu cooler is noctua dh-15
gpu? it's just an r9 290 factory OCed from sapphire
haswell benefits from delidding for even cooler temps because intel keeps jewing
>>
>>54601436
Dude, DaS3 runs fine on 980/fury at 1440p
>>
>>54599307
Did this for a laugh. http://vocaroo.com/i/s0VeVYYbZ75h
By no means is it a good rendition, but it was fun to do.
>>
>>54602394
Kek'd thoroughly
>>
>>54602240
what's the noise of water coolers?
>>
>>54599307
:D
>>
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>>54599307
Noice.
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>>54598308
>>
>>54602444
Very little, as long as you use a proper pump/not a shitty AIO.
I've got a Kraken X61 at the moment (the NOISIEST but also best cooling AIO on the market) and in silent mode, it runs pretty quietly. If I put it to performance mode, fuck me does it get loud.

If you go custom (open) loop however, and avoid DDC pumps like the plague unless you REALLY need that extra pressure (in which case, you can always make two separate loops or use two D5's anyway...), it can be fucking whisper quiet.
I've heard a decent open loop system first hand and when I say heard, I couldn't hear a thing from it.

That's why I'm planning to do a OLC ASAP.
>>
>>54602444
Coil whine, coil whine everyday.
>>
>>54602564
i don't get it

>>54602553
thanks! how much does these custom loops cost, on average?
>>
>>54602579
>custom loops
$450 for CPU+GPU
>>
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>>54602444

Depends on your case, this is define s (recommended)

I'll probably switch to liquid on pascal.. Just pulling in electro charged air isnt cool for the mobo.. top is already for cpu.. Maybe 80mm exhaust...

AFAIK

EVGA Hydrocopper
MSI Seahawk
Asus Poseidon

Aftermarket clash incoming
>>
>>54600956
They ran the fan at max speed, the fan on the 1080 doesn't spin faster than 55% by default, I'm sure you could get those results as well if you don't mind the noise.
>>
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>>54600917
>>
>>54602564
As someone who pre-ordered a Fury X and received it a day after the full release (I wasn't at home on the first day, couldn't accept the package) -- I've not had even the slightest bit of coil whine. Literally none.
Fury X was notorious for coil whine on the pre-release cards, but that was very, very quickly fixed with a revision.
Don't know about other AIO cards, but I don't imagine they're as bad as pre-revision Fury X

>>54602579
Well for the loop I'm looking at building via EK-Waterblocks, its in the range of 6-700 euro.
Which when converted, is £550 / $800, if highballing the estimated price.

You could do it cheaper, but honestly, its really not one of those things you should do little by little because its a lot better to just get high grade components and all of the components you'll need from the very start, otherwise you'll be constantly having to drain and fill, drain and fill, readjust and order new tubing and changing and everything, all for no reason.

What I'm looking at is:
1 Res+pump combo, 2x 360 radiators, CPU block, GPU block, GPU backplate (Fury X), all of the fittings required for that, a Y-piece for a drain port, 6 fans designed for high pressure and some fluid.
>>
Why not just wait 2 years and play the games with all the bugs fixed, and a GPU that doesn't burn your house down?
>>
B-B-BUT 67 DEGREES AT 2.1GHZ

NVIDIA WOULDN'T LIE TO ME
>>
>>54602553
The H100i is louder, I know I have this one also it has pump noises, wish I had avoided the watercooling meme and instead gotten a noctua or something like that.
>>
>>54602677
>As someone who pre-ordered a Fury X and received it a day after the full release (I wasn't at home on the first day, couldn't accept the package) -- I've not had even the slightest bit of coil whine. Literally none.
You lucky bastard.
>>
>>54598308
87 isn't even bad compared to some of their past cards.

My 8800GT would go above 100 in Clear Sky.
>>
>>54602634
Thank you for posting that image. I was actually about to go look at my handbook to see if I'd have to go with a slimline or if two 38mm rads would work together.
>>
>>54602688

Same, I'll switch cpu to air on noctua and use the 100i gtx on the gpu if possible, close case top...
>>
>>54602677
>>54602689
Same here, actually.
Its been a great card, actually. Only problem I've ever had is that my Korean ips monitor didn't have Display port jacks, so I had to get an adapter
>>
>>54602687
Technically they didn't... (From Tom's Hardware review)

>As Nvidia showed off the GeForce GTX 1080 at its press day in Austin, Texas, we kept asking ourselves how the card repeatedly showed up in demos at temperatures under 65 °C. In order to circumvent its thermal limit, we tried setting the fan to a 100% duty cycle, and that ended up being the simple solution.

>In our standard setup with an ambient temperature of 22 °C, we measured 68 to 69 °C. In another room at 20 °C, and using a less demanding Full HD workload, we finally replicated Nvidia's 65 °C demo. The noise that's created isn't bad when you're in a large hall full of journalists and EDM blaring over the speakers. But it's much more apparent in an office.
>>
>>54602702
mine's 120
>>
>>54598951
>>54598964
>this review is brought to you by our sponsor nvidia
>>
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>>54602688
Ouch. I thought the kraken topped the charts.
Yeah, I kinda do and don't regret going AIO myself. I mean, that £120 would've been nice going towards a custom loop, but at the same time my 212evo got in the way of my RAM a lot so I don't at all miss the awkwardness of that in the slightest.

>>54602689
Ha, thanks. God, I'll never forget being the first person to post a Fury X in the guts thread.
>>
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>>54602778
>those fans
Doing God's work, anon
>>
>>54598391
Notice how none of the reviews out talk about the temps
>>
>>54600044
>Fan speed only spins up to 55% on default fan profile

KEKED
>>
>>54600276
>My 290x doesnt even Hit more than 70C
The reference hit over 90+C
>>
>>54602901
Mine didn't.
>but it did sound like a Hind lifting off
>>
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>>54602835
Thanks. As you can see, I actually did remove the angled fan (some time ago now) but my baby is still going strong.
Wish I had a better camera. All I've got is my current Moto E (2nd gen) or old Moto G (1st gen) to take pictures with.
>>
>>54600467
because Nvidia's CEO is a good salesman,sound familiar?
>>
>>54602960
I hate windowed cases. The noise level drops considerably if you have a non-window case and sound-damper materials like in the fractal r4.
>>
>>54602960
>introducing your new waste collection service

Might wanna remove that, before some fanboy memes about it, senpai
>>
>>54598308
>>54602840
>>54600956

Right, the overclocking headroom just burned out

Enthusiast includes overclocking... I can forgive the "leaked" bench perf, but the temps are already the the roof...

I'm not sure if this is their first gimped prototype and further optimized on next gen with standard hbm2, every pres is always 1 or 2 generations late from current lab research
>>
How many years do i have left on a 980 gtx. I only game at 1920 x 1080 1080p/144. Should i consider the 1070?
>>
>>54603022
>144 hz meme
You should definitely consider suicide.
>>
>>54603022

Nop, try exchanging your 980 for 980 ti + extra 100 or 200 usd a month after the release for all the summerfags

980 ti is easily all you need for 1080p144...
>>
>>54603038
It was a good monitor on sale for less than any of the 60hz ones. I know its a meme but i was on a budget.
>>
>>54603009
Considering that its struggling now just to meet acceptable temps, I doubt it's gimped, and more that they needed something that appeared stronk on benchmarks to shill, until they get something new out the door
>>
>>54602990
>whats the cream for anon?
it writes itself
>>
>>54602990
I'm not worried, that'd be a pretty hard pressed meme.
>>54603109
hahahahha, I wrote too soon.
>>
>>54598391
HAHAHAHAHAHA

THEY TESTED THIS CARD IN CANADA
>IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FOREST
>FIRES EVERYWHERE
>>
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>>54603132

>so what's the cream for, anon?
>>
>>54603401
Serious reply here; its because I'm a butcher. There's the off chance that someone in here may remember me, but I doubt it. Anywhoo, as a butcher, I'm tasked with keeping my hands clean and normally its not too bad on my skin - but as of late I've also been doing fishmounger duties from time to time, which means CONSTANTLY washing my hands as I swap from meat->fish->meat, or if someone expects me to gut/fillet a trout, since I don't bother with gloves.

Trout slime alone will ruin your hands, between the trout slime and swapping sections constantly, alongside the usual washing your hands when you sneeze or have to change a bin for example? My hands become so cracked that they'll bleed constantly without any further trigger if I don't use E45 as and when necessary.
>>
>>54603573
I find it easier to gut meat compared to fish. Fish is just urgh. That cream is well deserved.
>>
>>54598308
more like Flamers Edition
>>
>>54603596
Yeah, 100% agree with you. The only animal I'm not keen on is pig (ironic, since I love piggies and pork), because of that thick pork juice.
Bovine, lamb, chicken, turkey, duck and deer - I've done all that and had no issues at all.
Hell, even pork isn't as bad as fish.
But hey, its in the job so its what I gotta do.
>>
>>54601510
>mildly impressive
I feel like you came across this thread and decided to post not having any knowledge of what your talking about.

The 1080 is faster then the Titan X and uses a fraction of the power and a after market half the price. Aside from retarded founders edition running a million degrees it is a fucking beautiful card

>inb4 shill
>>
>>54603648
>The 1080 is faster then the Titan X and uses a fraction of the power and a after market half the price
And none of that was a surprise

It performs exactly how it should, and there were no mind blowing reveals in the reviews.
It's a new gpu that's faster than the old generation, but with a big focus on VR with all of the new tech that was introduced with it, which is the most interesting part of the launch

So yeah, mildly impressive but nothing really earth shattering
>>
>>54603648
>a fucking beautiful card
>>inb4 shill

:^)
>>
>>54598906
well if you run this gpu at summer +30c in a room that isnt shill like shill tips office then you will Burn your house down.. and if that shit collects a bit of dust + thermal paste degrades then you are fucked
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