place to discuss desktop environments, windows managers and display servers, NOT to share anime wallpapers.
Anyone here runs Wayland? How far are they from being able to replace X?
>>54511171
Some arch or fedora guys might run it already.
It seems like my favorite DE, MATE, which I intend to use with Wayland in the future, will first have to develop a compositor to work with it:
>Wayland support for MATE is currently targeted for some future release. Though Wayland itself is relatively stable (but still under a lot of active development), the current obstacles include creating a Wayland compositor for MATE, and porting the core applications to gtk3, which will allow the applications to take full advantage of Wayland's capabilites (currently, these applications are based in gtk2, which can only communicate with Wayland through the XWayland implementation).
http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/wayland
And that will only come after they have gtk3 support so I'm thinking it takes at max another 3 releases of MATE (hopefully not though).
Does anyone know if 1.16 already means complete gtk3 support or if there's more to come?
Seems like it at least:
http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/status:gtk3
http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/roadmap
If that's true and they're fast enough to write a new compositor for Wayland or can use an existing one, they might already support it by 1.18.
That's still only February 2017 though.
you can already use wayland, it works nicely.
only touchpad doesn't work well for me, but that is because of libinput, not wayland, and apart from that, I have no complaints using wayland as my main display server
>>54513061
Do VNC viewers etc work in your experience? Or anything else really or is it just the touchpad that doesn't do as it should?
And what DE or WM are you using?
No way to disable mouse acceleration with Wayland/GNOME makes it almost useless for me.
>>54512983
>MATE porting gtk3
Wasn't one big raison d'etre for MATE that they didn't want to deal with gtk3? Back in 2011 or thereabouts, the way it was presetend was "Everyone hates GNOME 3 and really just wants a more polished GNOME 2." MATE forked GNOME 2 to not have to deal with gtk3, Cinnamon went the route of building a more polished GNOME 2-like experience using gtk3. Diverged from there but... still shocked to hear MATE taking steps into gtk3 because, iirc, staying in step with breaking changes in every-other gtk3 release is a huge pain even for the Cinnamon devs, who are presumably used to it by now.
>>54513289
>not have to deal with gtk3
they forked gnome2 to not have to deal with the huge pile of shit the retarded gnome3 was/is. Gtk3 is very tightly tied to gnome3, but here you have cinnamon for example. Xfce is also going for gtk3.
>>54511171
I tried it some time ago with GNOME and it worked pretty well.
That said, I don't see the point yet if all my applications run in an XWayland instance instead of Wayland native.
>>54513405
>>54513289
Fuck, does gtk3 support mean that it has to look like GNOME 3 or what?
I don't know enough about this but I assumed that gtk3 is just a newer toolkit but you can still make it look completely the same as before with gtk2.
Why are devs moving to gtk3 again when gtk2 is perfectly fine as it is?
>>54514476
Security vulnerabilities in older libs. They want to deprecate the old one. Shit'll look the same, just based on contemporary and supported tech.
>>54514476
I don't know but I guess more and better features since it's simply a newer version.
Apparently other shit like HiDPI support too:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1x6lce/eli5_what_are_the_prime_differences_between_gtk2/
Does it really force where you have to put a cancel button though? I don't want the window layouts change? Can't it just look the same with gtk3?
WHY ARE WINDOW MANAGERS SO HARD TO SETUP REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>54514664
GTK2 works fine on my >200 dpi screen, in fact, it just queries the dpi setting from the X server...
GTK3 doesn't.
>>54514809
Ok, good. I'm not saying that GTK3 is better I just read that about it.
Doesn't look like MATE's appearance changed in those vids if they represent what it will look like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akg8bZovyE8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMsba8r2KnE
I'm fine as long as they don't the GNOME look.
>>54514967
*force
>>54514967
Nah it's just funny how they claim they've improved something, but they've actually made it worse.
stay classy gtk
Does anyone know any theme for Xfce that resembles this theme of tint2?
>>54514967
Gnome is gnome's take on gtk3 theme
gtk3 is not gnome
>>54515181
That makes glad to hear.
Again, I'm not claiming to know anything about gtk3, I'm just always seeing it like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK%2B#/media/File:Gtk3-widget-factory-3.16.0.png
which looks like GNOME.
Is Wayland okay yet? I tried it with Enlightenment but it was only almost usable. Is it ever going to take off?
>>54515712
Wayland works really well with GNOME now
>>54513803
What do you mean with look like GNOME?
>>54515953
Nice, it has been a while since I tried it, I guess I should check it out with Gnome shell.
How is XWayland faring in your case? Can you run any X application without issues?
>>54515095
That's a really ugly tint2, dude.
There are no Xfce themes. Only Xfwm themes (for its window manager) and GTK themes for the GTK programs that you're using. Look on DeviantArt or GNOME look for some, but be warned: only a handful of them are working with the latest GTK versions.
>>54516010
Most of the time I don't even notice if an application is running in XWayland. Even with XWayland there are less/better graphical glitches. The only exception is Chromium, but it has a wayland version anyway. I run Arch so I use GNOME 3.20.
>>54514809
GTK2 has no support for scaling at all (The X thing you are talking about is relevant only to font scaling and i3. No other wm/de properly scales based on setting it in X in any way).
GTK3 scales based on a certain variable.
Gnome weirdly does some voodoo to find out what to set the variable.
>>54516091
>Gnome weirdly does some voodoo to find out what to set the variable.
Is it really voodoo to parse the DPI of your screen and set it accordingly?
>>54516155
It is when monitors that report it incorrectly still get scaled correctly with Gnome.
How fucking date you come to my fucking board and shill your fucking graphical user interfaces.
WM/DEs are the fucking cancer of the computer world. If you don't use straight TTY you are a shit tier neet faggot and you need to kill yourself.
REEEEEEEEEEEE
>>54516081
Perfect, thank you very much. I'll try it out.
>>54516244
I mostly use my DE as life support for a terminal but I don't want to watch videos/browse the web in the framebuffer.
>>54516297
So you're willing to cuck yourself and your pure computatial experience so you can watch non-free videos streaming from a proprietary bot net?
God you're such a bloat fag.
>>54516342
I don't remember youtube-dl + mpv being proprietary
>>54516357
The code that stores and streams the code is not free you fucking retard. Google has its own trackers embedded in every stream and by falling for their Jew traps you've sacrificed your true freedom.
Please, liberate your mind with a shotgun.
>>54516155
Please read
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-October/157671.html
>>54515319
Of course it "looks like GNOME". Adwaita is GTK+'s default theme and what's used in GNOME. GTK+ is very easy to customize with CSS.
>>54516396
>not using Tor with scripted random HTTP user agent
Even Stallman doesn't care about servers he connects to using nonfree software
>>54516396
The cables that lay across the oceas were made with non-free technologies and installed with non-free, proprietary hardware.
Liberate yourself.
>>54516540
>not accessing American-only websites from America
What are you, a commie?
>>54516430
>there's someone out there who knows that much about screen sizes, resolutions, DPI and related standards
>ywn be a master for a field like that guy
How do i set up a wm
>>54516039
Thanks, anon. :3
>>54516471
Ah so it's just the theme, thanks.
Anyone got some stuff talking about wayland ? What it will change, improve, what are the cons and pros etc.
>>54516730
it depends
>>54517406
I'm pretty sure it's getting pointer locking soon
>>54517406
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ
>>54511171
>>54512983
Why doesn't anyone just port Weston to use in a de? It's already miraculous and works
>>54517607
Maybe someone will in the future. Maybe the MATE guys. They said they'd need one.
>>54517483
What wm do you recommend for a beginner?
>>54518363
what do you use right now?
>>54518430
I tried i3 but i didnt understand it so I switched back to xfce
>>54516396
>MOM THEY KEEP DOING THINGS I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT VIOLATES THEIR FREEDOM, MAKE EM STOP
>REEEEEEEEEE
>>54518447
just use a full DE tbqh
you could play with openbox if you really want, it's easier
>>54518447
also about i3, first thing you should do issudo apt-get install dmenu, then you can hit Alt(or Windows key)+d and execute programs from there.
>>54518257
I hope so
The Weston demo is fucking witchcraft. Genuinely might be the best compositor of all time
>>54518953
>The Weston demo is fucking witchcraft.
Eh? What's so good about it?
>>54519975
have you tried it?
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/wayland#Weston
the demo is so smooth. ive used it and compared to gnome, compiz, compton, kwin... god damn it just obliterates all of them
>>54520027
No and I don't plan on using Wayland for a while. When you said demo I thought you meant like a video or something.
I don't trust red hat personally, I will probably hate it. But oh well.
>gnome, compiz, compton, kwin
compiz and compton are compositors
gnome is a DE
kwin is a WM
they are literally not even the same thing. What the fuck are you smoking?
also, orbment > weston
floating WMs are cancer
>>54511171
I'm trying out wayland with sway (an i3 compatible compositor for wayland). It's going places, but it still has some issues to be ironed out for my day to day usage.
>>54520140
>kwin is a WM
No, it's a compositor, just like Weston is a compositor. You don't understand the Wayland protocol or how a compositor relates to it.
>I don't trust red hat personally
The calling card of the retarded.
>>54520140
Jesus christ, I know that KDE uses kwin as a composting window manager and that gnome uses mutter as a composting window manager. I'm not fucking retarded. What you just did was the pathetic basement dwelling version of correcting my grammar
>>54518447
RTFM. It took me half an hour to learn all the default shortcuts. JFC
>>54518630
and more importantly, just add keybinds to the stuff you use often. mod-b for browser. Mod-t for thunar. etc. I never have to use any god-aweful trackpad to navigate or run programs, and I never have to drag anything around because of the tiling. i3 is truly God's gift to laptop users.
>>54516002
I assume he means this
>How far are they from being able to replace X?
Very far.
>garbagetk3/qt only, other toolkits not yet ported
>no compatibility-layer type toolkit for plain xlib applications that are still widely used by academics (academics even use CDE here and there. really.)
>No native (non-xwayland) terminal emulators that are competitive with xterm and rxvt in terms of performance on "terminal: the OS"
>Compositors are difficult to write and maintain, WMs are so simple that you can make them out of shell scripts
>Wayland relegates networking to the compositor instead of making it universal, remote desktop and remote application come with compositor compatibility issues
>>54516244
>straighty TTY
woah woah woah we got a harmful motherfucker here
do you really think all your ncurses programs like vim, htop, and tmux that draw a fucking gooey with text aren't harmful? do one thing and do it well means use text to represent words, not fucking text editors with split panes and tabs.
you should be using rio for everything. the least harmful way to draw a line is /dev/draw not /dev/tty!
>but plan 9 is dead
if you only use a TTY it's an upgrade faggot
Wayland is disgusting cancer.
>>54522187
Nice memes.
0. Xwayland exists.
1. EFL is also ported. What other toolkits are you waiting for? Tk? See also point 0.
2. See point 0.
3. See point 0.
4. What compatibility issues? As always, choose the desktop that offers the features you want.
>>54521876
Those header things and CSDs aren't mandatory for every GTK3 program. You can still use GTK3 for your software, but don't add those.
GNOME uses them to make all of their programs look consistent.
>>54522408
>Extra overhead exists
>EFL is used for anything
>See point 0
>See point 0
>GNOME hegemony. With X, every desktop offers a common set of features because they are part of X.
>>54523205
So, which toolkit(s) where you referring to?
Show me real-world tests showing the extra overhead has any meaningful impact on performance. I use a Wayland desktop almost daily, and it's unnoticeable.
>every desktop offers a common set of features because they are part of X
No, no they don't. You'll find that desktops don't even agree on EWMH right now.
"Hegemony" in free software just another term for "the people doing the damn work."
Can you style KDE5's panel with CSS like you can GNOME 3's? Genuinely hope so, that'd be great.
What is actualy wrong with unity apart from muh ricing?
>>54525091
Actually
>muh ricing
is propagated by dumfucks who don't actually know Unity; you can easily style it with CSS.
MOOOOODS
HW accel status?
are we coming here or what
>>54527307
I don't know.
Cute desktop though.
>>54525671
>easily
lmao have you even tried?
>>54514476
>>54514664
>>54514809
Yup any gtk2 DE looks super tiny on my 1440p monitor and when I do that font DPI increase thing everything looks very awkward. The text is bigger but everything else still looks too small. Proper hidpi scaling scales the icons, fonts, windows, etc to look perfectly aligned with each other.
I might switch to MATE if they move to gtk3 one day. All the current GTK DEs feel so bloated.
>>54529717
Wayland will be great for HiDPI users.
- Allows GTK+ to handle multi-monitor set-ups with differing DPIs.
- Allows GTK+ to do fractional scaling instead of just integer.
- Allows mutter to scale 'legacy' Xwayland apps. Of course assets will still be blurry, but that's much, much better than nothing.
>>54511171
Wayland is cancerous, and should be avoided. Xenocara exists, the patches have been made available for upstream use, and it goes a long way in solving the problems with X. It makes Wayland entirely pointless. Why the Linux, and other BSD communities have failed to adopt it is truly mind boggling. Their failure here is nothing short of being full retard. It really is just a simple matter of taking it, and implementing it.
>>54530399
looks like just a security enhancement, security isn't the only problem with X
>>54530399
>and it goes a long way in solving the problems with X
What does it do besides running X11 as its own user? You can't provide an secure X11-compatible X server. To secure it you must break assumptions X has made since the 1980s.
>>54514679
Finder.app works fine here, friend
>>54525091
app drawers a shit
>>54530546
The problem with X is that it has nice WMs and working software like xdotool and hotkey daemons that must be done away with.
