Does capitalism delay technological development, /g/?
Of course. It creates monopolies and stagnation in markets where there is a high barrier to entry. Pharmaceuticals, for example, could be much more accessible if we abolished intellectual property.
Of course it does
Did somebody say free?
>>54461530
>where there is a high barrier to entry
barrier created by the government
>>54461687
And lobbied by corporations.
>>54461473
Does socialism promote technological development? Be sure to show examples like the Internet, personal computers, cellphones, lasers, microchips, LCD, led, ATM's, air conditioning, assembly lines, bar codes, etc.
>>54461473
No. No one works without incentives
This is what capitalism excels at.
>>54461561
>>54461530
Posts made on microcomputers and networks which were the product of capitalism.
Get an education. Thanks
>>54461473
Only in capitalism are you rewarded from excelling in what you do or how you think.It's the only system where one does not have to be a politician to be a special snow flake
>>54461792
>>54461801
>the Internet, personal computers, cellphones, lasers, microchips, LCD, led, ATM's, air conditioning, assembly lines, bar codes, etc.
All stuff created by the government, or the military, or public-funded university research.
If you guys love capitalism so much, then why aren't you and your wife and children working 14 hours a day in a sweatshop factory floor for pennies?
>>54461792
Every developed socialist nation is also capitalist. /g/ is just completely retarded about politics.
>>54461823
Because that isn't capitalism.
>>54461801
It still delays advancement, but it promotes size. And therefore money, and therefore research.
A modified patent system is what is needed, not communism.
>>54461822
In capitalism you are rewarded for better marketing, not for excellence. There are numerous examples in technology. Do you really believe Apple and Microsoft are the best at what they do? kek
>>54461837
You sound just like a commie claiming the USSR wasn't real communism.
>>54461823
Microprocessors and microcomputers are products of private businesses such as Texas Instruments and Intel. The internet is available to consumers because of private businesses. You never would have been using something like DARPANet. Who are you trying to fool?
>>54461853
Who is better at what M$ and Apple do then?
>>54461869
Are you stupid I was saying his statement isn't capitalism, as as far right as your mother's nipple
#buildthatwall
There can be no exponential growth without capitalism. There can be no monopolies in pure capitalism. Communism is a failed, fatal meme
>>54461870
>Microprocessors and microcomputers
Nope, NASA and the Apollo missions to the moon.
I'm not surprised a person who unironically believes in capitalism is ignorant about history, but come on!
>>54461853
Most of these advancements wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for the demand from CONSUMERS
>>54461687
Nice meme. Market entry barriers are due to capital accumulation and economies of scale
>>54461883
But it is capitalism, anon.
no. its boosted so much by competition that the market gets over-saturated with over 9000 formats of hardware and software.
>>54461473
>Does capitalism delay technological development, /g/?
Capitalism is the source of technological development. Anyone that's taken an entry-level economics course would understand this.
>>54461936
Because technological development was non-existent before the 18th century, right?
>>54461895
>but come on!
You had a good string of (You)'s going, but now it's too obvious
>>54461473
>planned obsolesence
>stagnation
Jut look at Intel.
When AMD fallen behind we stopped getting better computers.
>>54461947
>capitalism comes "into existence" around the 1800s overtaking mercantilism
>the world takes leaps and bounds of technological advances in 200 years
4000 years ago we were using wooden ships powered by wind. 250 years ago we were still using wooden ships powered by wind.
100 years later we had steamboats and metal materials. 50 years later we had diesel engine metal behemoths.
All the product of entrepreneurs, considering political entrepreneurs attempted to make such things work and failed catastrophically. Same thing with powered flight and railroads.
>>54461473
Any form of government has its flaws.
How capitalism is supposed to work:
Ideally you should allow people to buy, sell, and trade as they please and be free to create and invent. The people pay taxes to fund the government and in turn the government builds public roads and schools. Money is spent on the military as well. You vote for leaders to make important decisions.
How it actually works:
Hurr durr we can just print more money! Fuck logic! Fuck economics! No moar debts! You are owned by companies. Elections are a joke because of it.
How socialism is supposed to work:
Taxes are actually used to fund public services. Free healthcare and other public services make sure that nobody has too little. The government also checks to make sure nobody has too much. We can all share the love!
How socialism actually works:
Faggots mooch off the system. The people are lazy and weak. Alliances are formed and because of cultural differences, one or two countries are forced to bare the brunt of the economic responsibility *caugh caugh EU and Germany caugh* You can all share the misery!
How communism is supposed to work:
The government owns everything. They know best, so everything works out fine. Everyone is equal and united you are strong!
How communism actually works:
The system is open to abuse. You don't elect your leaders so they're all incompetent asshats. Your dear leader has small penis so he builds nuclear weapons to compensate. Your people starve. You live in hell. The whole thing implodes in less than 100 years.
>>54462020
>The people pay taxes to fund the government and in turn the government builds public roads and schools.
You went from describing capitalism and jumped into politics. Stopped reading there, the rest of your post is probably just as dumb
>>54461898
>Most of these advancements wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for the demand from CONSUMERS
You think capitalism is the only soiciety that is consuming stuff?
Capitalism as in definition is when rich assholes destroy all competition and upwards mobility of everyone else by all means possible.
Intellectual property is one most used way of doing that.
And murricans pay for that dearly every time they need medicine.
Drugs manufactoring cost is abysmal, but capitalisn makes it super expensive.
>>54462042
>Capitalism as in definition is when rich assholes destroy all competition and upwards mobility of everyone else by all means possible.
>muh ebil 1 pershent
>Drugs manufactoring cost is abysmal, but capitalisn makes it super expensive.
It costs an estimated 1 billion dollars to bring a new drug to the market because of FDA regulations
Fuck off
>>54462020
>Ideally you should allow people to buy, sell, and trade as they please and be free to create and invent.
Free market will create monopolies thaty will destroy all other business, competition, progress and will inflate prices as much as consumers can possibly pay for it.
You need to be absolutely retarded to think that Free Market won't end with complete monopolies on everything and total stagnation
Americans have that with IPS, free market will be american IPS on stroids.
>>54461473
fuck off commie
>>54461953
>I-I can't refute him, so I'll just call him bait!
>>54462000
>economic systems drive technological progress
Not to say that they can't contribute, but saying that all of humanity owes technology to capitalism is pretty retarded.
Economic systems can definitely inhibit technological progress though.
>>54462041
Well, you know what they say about opinions...
>>54461895
http://history-computer.com/ModernComputer/Basis/microprocessor.html
You're wrong.
>>54462000
That's gonna be the French Revolution and the demise of Christianity for you.
>>54461473
meme
>>54462082
You're literally clueless, stop.
Americans have the literal opposite of a free market with their ISPS.
>>54461800
>no one works without incentives
>work is not its own incentive through the fulfillment of a task or satiation of curiosity
>>54462082
Keep reading.
>>54461800
capitalism exploits. bottom line. it's not sustainable.
>>54462042
>Capitalism as in definition is when rich assholes destroy all competition and upwards mobility of everyone else
Then why has capitalism created the most upward mobility of any social system in recorded history?
>>54462042
>Capitalism as in definition is when rich assholes destroy all competition and upwards mobility of everyone else by all means possible.
Intellectual property is one most used way of doing that.
>Capitalism as in definition is when rich assholes destroy all competition
>Capitalism as in definition
>2016, still making up definitions when counter arguments are sparse
>>54462082
>Free market will create monopolies thaty will destroy all other business, competition, progress and will inflate prices as much as consumers can possibly pay for it.
You realize that all of Marx's Laws of Capitalist Motion were disproven, right?
>>54461895
>Apollo missions
>Microprocessors
>>54462115
This. Christianity is what was holding us back.
>>54461902
Love how this gets no replies. The truth hurts.
>>54462094
Humanity doesn't owe technology to capitalism. I never said that.
I said capitalism brought about faster technological process than ever before.
>>54462115
>That's gonna be the French Revolution and the demise of Christianity for you.
These innovations didn't come from France, and Christianity was strong far into the 1950s.
Science and tech doesn't just suddenly become better because there aren't religious people.
I honestly can't tell if this guy is a retarded college freshman or just trolling. It's so hard to tell nowadays.
>>54461473
Communism is bad. Whoever argues otherwise is a gullible idiot. You should go live in North Korea and put your life where your mouth is.
Hey Reddit just bought my $30 Threadless tee how's it look? :-)
Communism can't even copy 30 year old American military technology properly.
>>54461473
No
>>54461530
Abolishing IP is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard of
>>54462138
Lol you're a retard
>>54462139
Literally ignorance.
>Socialism
>free education
>free medicine
>free social stuff
Do you realize that a child of a black hobo can go to any school just because he's a citizen, and then he can go and major STEM or economics and whatever he feels like just because he's a citizen and only thing he needs to do is to be good enough to enter any univercity for free.
How can you claim upwards mobility when education isn't free?
In soviet and current Russia you can be anyone anywhere and apply to ANY univercity and get into it based on competitive exams and you will be provided with education and dorms, and even little cash.
The only thing that defines who gets it is competition.
>>54462178
>post hoc ergo propter hoc
That's the fallacy you're committing.
Capitalism didn't accelerate technological progress, because technological progress was never linear, it was exponential.
>>54462201
>false dichotomy
That's the fallacy you're committing.
>>54462251
You can do exactly this in the USA
With somewhat decent grades and exam scores you can pretty much go for free to a state school
>>54462257
>committing the fallacy fallacy
How cute.
>Capitalism didn't accelerate technological progress, because technological progress was never linear, it was exponential.
It was not exponential at all. That's not only unprovable but clearly wrong just by reading through a history book.
>>54462257
Most of you on /g/ are talking out of your ass. I lived in communism and anyone who wants that deserves it. Go on, go live in communism. It's like you've had it with goog living standards and want to slum it under one-party rule.
>>54461773
Funny how no one replies to this.
>>54462251
>thinking niggers will get an education
Socialism only works for why people, that's why I'm National Socialist, you cuck
>>54462251
>>free education
>>free medicine
>>free social stuff
>free
There's that word again
>>54462251
Cuban Doctors are so hilariously under-trained they couldn't even IV patients.
>>54462289
*good living standards
Fuck my crap keyboard.
>>54462295
White people*
>>54462292
You did. But it was your own post, so that doesn't count.
>>54462020
All in all this is much more intelligent then I expected to see here. But one critical part of capitalize people forget is that part about equal information, this is why things like insider trading can make it break so badly.
Also be more carful to distinguish government structures from economic structures, although they are so inter related that most can't tell them apart.
>>54462266
But you cant get majors for free.
Majors in most paid jobs are most paid so the rich get the rich education, and the poor get poor education.
With socialism you can get ANYTHIN if you're good enough.
>>54462324
>With socialism you can get ANYTHIN if you're good enough.
You mean if your daddy is in the Politburo
>>54462302
That is a profitable investment by the state into it's citizens.
>Communist countries either crashed and burned or slowly became more capitalist
>Capitalist countries keep chugging along fine
I don't think you need any more proof than this
>inb4 Nordic countries are socialist
They are welfare states, not socialist. This is a very bad meme in modern politics.
>>54462322
True. Thanks for a constructive comment.
>>54462340
I'd like you to prove that it's profitable
>>54462335
A shit-piss-poor person can get literally any majors, and dorms, and social support if only he's good enough.
You can be born in a god forsaken shithole willage, read the books and get education in MGU if you get better score than the rest of applicants.
>>54462324
>But you cant get majors for free.
What?
State schools have the widest variety of majors of any school
You can major in petro. eng. or any STEM field if you want at the same cost as a student studying accounting or park management at a state school.
Practically free if you're poor, or for free.
>>54462371
There's this funny thing called a money multiplier. The BLS calculates it, look into it.
>>54462377
Admissions to state unis in the USA are pretty much your ACT/SAT score, essays, class grades, and class selection.
It doesn't matter where you go to school for a state school.
>>54462398
>I can't prove it
Wew lad
>>54461792
Let's look at the definition of Socialism (from wikipedia):
> Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production, as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to public ownership, cooperative ownership, citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.
It's kinda difficult to find real examples of technological innovation in such a system since such a system has never existed. The closest real life equivalent we have is Mondragon Corporation in Spain, a democratically organised and worker-managed cooperative with many individual companies. Well, they have their own university. That's quite something.
>>54462371
>people don't die from unaffordable medicine
>people educate themselves to work better
>people work more and better.
Do you realize that America is absolute world leader in death from being too poor for medicine?
It doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.
>>54462405
You have pretty bad eyes.
>>54462356
>Nordic countries
>welfare states
This is a meme, swedes can't even afford to live in Sweden It's that expensive, you get $100 in child support payments a month; that's less than 6 hours of professional babysitting.
>>54462310
Follow your führer
>>54462415
>Do you realize that America is absolute world leader in death from being too poor for medicine?
Do you realize how stupid you sound right now?
>>54462280
>It was not exponential at all.
Let me guess, you're one of those fags who think there was no technological development during the Middle Ages, right?
You fell for the Dark Ages meme.
>>54462289
1- That wasn't real communism.
2- No one here is suggesting communism as a viable alternative.
>>54462439
Trump acknowledjed that
>>54462407
>since such a system has never existed.
NO TRUE SOCIALISM
>>54462463
>1- That wasn't real communism.
>>54461473
Sometimes, but often not. Patents, on the other hand...
>>54462447
>Let me guess, you're one of those fags who think there was no technological development during the Middle Ages, right?
Show me where I said that
>>54462407
You realize Mondragon is literally fuelled by slave labour right?
>>54461892
Platonics don't exist in the real world though, even Plato communicated that in his treatise. It's the principle reason why Marxism turned into communism and communism failed into an aythoritarian nightmare. Capitalism is going the same way but slower merely because it allows for internal corrections and the US is also built to correct its governing systems, even though it has been continually demonstrated that both are highly manipulable. Jefferson was right.
>>54462487
She took a guess
she never said you said it
>>54462467
Trump is a blithering idiot of a politician
>>54462476
So you get to use that argument claiming pic related wasn't true capitalism, but we can't? Nice applied memetics, champ.
>>54462506
>/g/ is one person
>>54462506
He never said that isn't true capitalism
keep backpedaling
>>54462536
You're the one who just backpedaled. Why lie if anyone can scroll up and check the thread?
>th-thanks c-capitalism...
>trust me, anon, capitalism is gr-great
Look at all the technological development in pic related!
Why aren't you a capitalist yet?
>>54462469
It's true. Socialism would mean something along the lines of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls7QZm7omh8
That obviously never happened.
>>54462398
What you're talking about is the multiplier or Keynesian multiplier.
The money multiplier is a banking concept.
Keynesian multiplier relies on the budget deficit in the short term being offset by budget surpluses in the long-term, otherwise consumers will hold onto the money in anticipation of inflation, and suppress the multiplier effect. Politicians tend to forget this key point.
>>54462628
I'll take capitalism
I prefer to eat, 2bh
>>54462407
Anyone pointing at Spain as an example of economic success should be taken out back and shot. What's your unemployment level, again?
>>54462588
>>54462603
>>54462628
Could somebody explain this spam to me?
Why are they posting pictures of Industrial Britain which operated under state mercantilism, not capitalism?
>>54462640
hold onto resources, not money*
>>54461473
nah, the concept of intillectual property did
>>54462654
>implying Basque Country wants to be part of Spain
>implying 8 in 10 Spanish municipalities with the lowest unemployment rates aren't in Basque Country
Inform yourself before you Shrek yourself.
>>54462603
Communism is the much better alternative, goy. Trust me.
>>54462654
>What's your unemployment level, again?
I'm not Spanish.
You can read in numerous places that Mondragon did way better during the economic crisis than the rest of Spain. Not a lot of people had to be fired compared with the rest of the country, production or wages of workers at the bottom did not decline significantly, and so on and so forth. Exports obviously grew, cause no one in spain itself could buy their products anymore, but you can hardly blame them for that.
>>54462650
>brown people
Found your problem.
>>54462699
>more brown people
Why are you attributing racial problems to economics?
Literally any economical system works in a white country.
The humanity's problems are all due to blood and evolution.
What we need isn't capitalism or socialism. It's eugenics!
>>54462734
Agreed, honestly.
>>54462734
/pol/ is that way >>>/pol/
>>54462734
>YES!
>>54462734
>Literally any economical system works in a white country.
>what is GDR
>>54462749
MODS, /pol/ IS LEAKING AGAIN!
>>54462734
>>54462777
Churchill was literally a Jewish pawn, anon.
Everybody knows National Socialism is superior to any other system.
>>54462463
>if it didn't work it wasn't communism!
>>54462815
so much this.
this is the only argument stupid commie cucks can bring
>>54462767
This whole thread is /leftypol but op is a clever faggot that put "technology" in the title to shit up the board with ideological beliefs
*posts grayscale picture of workers in the 1800s*
tell me this isnt capitalism
>>54462759
Germany enslaved by russians for all the shit they did?
>>54462506
but it is true capitalism
>>54462834
also this.
>>54462836
poverty, the east is now broken beyond repair, its on poland level
>>54462751
>>54462767
I thought this was the politics board
>>>/pol/ ?
What the fuck do you faggots think you're doing talking about politics and the economy here?
sá Žmh tá Žbh faá Žm.
Also pic related is this entire thread.
>>54462827
it's sufficient if the other side's only argument is "look at how it did not work out then and there".
>>54462878
>>54462853
>>>/pol/ is a containment board for a reason.
To contain chaosfags like you.
>I know, I'll shit up other boards with off-topic information, that'll show them that I can be edgy and cool!
>>54462878
Please point to successful communism.
>>54462878
More like
>look how it never worked despite being tried all over the world on numerous occasions
>>54462907
>filename
>>54462832
>>54462859
OP here. Reason I posted this here is that there can be no serious discussion in a ridiculous containment board like /pol/.
>>54462878
dude history doesnt matter
weed
lmao
>>54462892
>100% failure rate won't convince me!
If capitalism delays technical progress how come North Korea is still living in the stone age?
Check mate commieturds
>>54462913
You keep imposing that false dichotomy...
>>54462923
It still isn't technology.
Go find a less infested chan or board, don't bring off-topic shit here, there's >>>/b/ for that.
Oh wait, /b/ is shitty too. I guess you're out of luck fá Žam.
>>54462923
cuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuckcuck
>>54462897
I'm neither of those posters but you're retarded if you think /pol/ contains anything.
>>54461473
Ask SpaceX
>>54461473
Capitalism is shit for innovation.
Virtually all "heavy" stuff comes from the state sector. The market just adjusts for consumer preference. It's the state that does the heavy lifting.
Socialism>Capitalism
>>54462897
>implying this whole thread isn't off topic
>>54462128
That is the dumbest thing I've heard of. In the real world its not all about "muh passion" but the need to provide for yourself or for your family. Get off of /g/ with your childish ideals.
>>54462927
>>54462931
>>54462918
>>54462907
>>54462913
1- We aren't advocating communism.
2- When we point to socialist successes, you discard them in the same fashion communist apologists disregard the USSR as communist, so you're basically hypocrites.
3- EVEN IF there was no superior alternative to capitalism, that wouldn't automatically nullify all criticism of capitalism.
>>54461792
Every single Nazi medical and scientific discovery. The V2 rocket. Loads of space tech from the soviets. The AK-47 platform. And plenty more.
>>54462975
>Socialism>Capitalism
Oh wow so how much innovation in computing has China achieved? Or North Korea for that matter.
You probably don't even have a faintest idea of what socialism is.
>>54463005
>... he typed, on his chinese-made computer
>>54462991
Actually I just don't get the opportunity to post that Sealab 2021 image often so I was just shitposting.
I think pure communism and pure capitalism and their proponents are both equally retarded.
Wait wait wait, why are we even assuming socialism and capitalism are opposites? Capitalism isn't even a political system.
>>54462913
indigenous populations
>>54462918
Definition on Wikipedia:
> A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access to the articles of consumption and is classless and stateless, implying the end of the exploitation of labor.
Seriously, when was that EVER tried? None of the so-called "communist" states is even close to qualifying for this. We can dismiss all of them on basis of actually having a state that does things.
>>54463014
>implying the brains are in the manufacturing
>>54463005
China was a peasant country 30 years ago.
Now it's the 2nd greatest economy in the world.
That's a win.
>>54462979
It is, that is the fucking point.
>>54463048
well then tell the OP to go to >>>/pol/
not some random shitposter
>>54462938
Kim Jong Un believes in Capitalism. He just doesn't believe in Capitalism for the people of best Korea.
>>54463025
Capitalism leads to democracy because it gives power to the people over their capital. Socialism takes away that power and thus has a tendency to devolve into totalitarianism.
>>54462923
>>54462941
Bunkerchan
>>54461892
>There can be no monopolies in pure capitalism.
Explain how an industry with lowering marginal costs won't result in monopoly then.
>>54461473
No, it is technology that is the enemy of technological development.
Think about it.
>>54462975
Is that pic accurate?
>>54463063
How silly do you feel now that you realize the people behind Apple strongly believe in socialist ideals?
>>54462476
>>54462815
>>54462827
>>54462918
>>54462913
As far as I know, there has been no country that calls itself "Communist" that actually is. Communism is by definition stateless, moneyless, classless and the workers own the means of production.
It's not only not "real Communism", it's not Communism at all. At best it's state capitalism.
Communism has never been "tried". It only arises, to my knowledge, through Socialism being established first. When someone "tries" to remove money and classes and abolish the state, then you can say they've "tried" to establish Communism.
There is no reason to have any respect for the failed method of Lenin, Mao and Castro to establish Communism. Marxists need to re-think implementation, but to say that Communism "doesn't work" or is impossible because it's been "tried" is just as silly as someone saying that a new microkernel-based OS cannot be created because past implementations have sucked.
>>54462907
>Hasn't history proven that
No, but even if it had, there's no reason why we cannot move closer to the ideal, as close as possible.
>inevitably
Unless you have vision of the future, you cannot prove this, and unless you can simulate every way in which Communism can be implemented (Marxian or not) you cannot prove it either.
The only thing worse than supporters of 20th Century "Communism" are supporters of the continuous exploitation of the proletariat through forced selling of labour by the bourgeois.
There's a reason the Soviets engaged in massive technological espionage and it isn't so they could laugh at how backwards American technology was compared to theirs.
>>54462640
>consumers will hold onto the money in anticipation of inflation, and suppress the multiplier effect.
First of all this isn't Keynes, it's Ricardo.
And it's been debunked for times than you've shitposted on 4chan.
>>54463039
That's kind of the point. They've attempted to build a communist society and every time it failed before they got there. It's unattainable.
>indigenous populations
>successful
c'mon nigger...
>>54463110
It's not wrong, but it's cherry picking. And military/scientific hardware is very different because it is not optimized for mass production. And they aren't even necessarily better. The whole principles of operation may be different.
>>54463147
the ideal of capitalism hasnt been tried either,
>>54463042
>China was a peasant country 30 years ago.
You probably mean 50 years ago. In the 80s China had a rapidly developing industry.
>>54463110
Yes of course.
>>54463005
Neither China nor the DPRK are Socialist or Communist countries, even in spirit. To say that the DPRK is Socialist or Communist is as silly as saying that it's democratic.
The DPRK removed all references to Socialism in its constitution if I recall correctly.
China is a dictatorship which used to be under state capitalism. Now it might as well be an oppressive version of the United States.
This thread went from a discussion of capitalism and technology to capitalism and communism.
Just proves that the shills of capitalism can't handle the fact that capitalism is shit for technological progress.
No investor would ever spend the kind of money necessary for technological innovation with no guarantee of return. That's why the government has to do it.
>>54463025
Working with the wikipedia definitions and if we assume ownership=control, they are pretty much exclusive.
Capitalism:
> Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.
Socialism:
> Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production. [...] Social ownership may refer to public ownership, cooperative ownership, citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.
Those are non-compatible in my view. Either you get private ownership and therefore a class of people controlling what the means of production do, or you get social (or public as I would call it) ownership, meaning people decide democratically what the means of production do. Incompatible because you can't have both: If the private owners' decision can be overridden by popular vote they did not really have the control and vise versa.
>>54463114
I'm sure that's what they want you to believe because it sells. It definitely sold you. How silly do you feel falling for it?
>>54463216
They can't defend their system, so they have to point to the flaws of another failed system as a red herring in order to get away with it.
>>54461895
Competition and greed will always emerge as a balance. Especially in the tech field. There has never been a single monopoly that didn't have the go ahead from a state or central power first
>>54463228
>socialism is bad but it sells
I thought capitalism rewarded excellence...
>>54463235
>having to defend someething that is objectively the best
Only cucks who aren't confident in the system they live in would say things like this.
>>54463257
>the system's so good I cannot describe its virtues
>>54463287
If you weren't so dense (I blame public education) you would've noticed their argument already, It's pretty obvious.
>>54463251
Not as a rule. When people buy products of sub par quality they tend to not make that mistake again. Apple was in that predicament before Steve Jobs came back, and now that he's dead it would appear as though they're heading south at record speed.
>I read something on mises.org
>I know understand everything about the world
fucking top kek you dumb shills
>>54463163
>>indigenous populations
>>successful
>c'mon nigger...
They did better in certain aspects than modern society does. Pretty sure they don't have 0.1% their population owning more than the bottom 50% together. It's sad that technological innovation seems to be kind of non-existant in them.
>>54463287
Face it, cuck, capitalism is best and I don't have to defend it for being the best.
Good luck cuck with your commieshillism.
>>54462987
>In the real world its not all about "muh passion" but the need to provide for yourself or for your family
No it isn't. Family and survival is meaningless without a greater sense of purpose. See the continued existence of religious institutions for the extent of known human history. Without purpose we would just kill each other or let ourselves die.
>>54463358
Lad, the fact that everyone you know lives in a mud hut doesn't help the fact that you're living in a mud hut as well.
I actually know what you're talking about, a lot of old people who miss USSR bring the same argument.
>waaah I miss the good old days when everyone else were just as poor as I
>>54461874
No idea, nobody has the money to compete.
>>54463358
the bottom 50% is just walking fertilizer anyway.
>>54463482
>Samsung, IBM, Sony, Google don't have the money to compete with Microsoft
>>54463406
There are plenty of people on >>>/int/ who live in ex gommie cunts who can tell you how shit it was. Most commieboos have never even lived in communist cunts. It's abundantly obvious they don't have a fucking clue when they use Apple as an example of socialism at work.
>>54463518
Not sure why you're quoting me, but most people on int are too young to know how shit it was. Yeah, they're still living a country that's dealing with the aftermath, but no first hand experience. Also, if you'd want to argue semantics, then nobody has "even lived in a communist cunt". Mind you I'm not advocating communism, the whole idea seems kind of silly. Until we get robot slaves and AI or some shit. That might be cool. Or it might make us redundant. Either way I'm sure some sad cunt would go all "robots of the world unite" and ruin it for everyone.
>>54463595
>then nobody has "even lived in a communist cunt"
They have.
>the whole idea seems kind of silly
because they all failed spectacularly and you would look like a fool for supporting it
>Until we get robot slaves and AI or some shit. That might be cool.
Gommunism could work if... lol
>Either way I'm sure some sad cunt would go all "robots of the world unite" and ruin it for everyone.
You're retarded and pissing in the wind. Get fucked gommie.
>>54463377
>>In the real world its not all about "muh passion" but the need to provide for yourself or for your family
>No it isn't. Family and survival is meaningless without a greater sense of purpose.
Yeah, average Joe working a dead-end bureaucracy job filling out TPS reports sure has a greater sense of purpose.
That purpose is pick up a bucket of KFC for his family on the way home from work, a six pack for himself and then watch Netflix until he falls asleep. Repeat.
The only break in monotony is when they go to Disney world, or the grand canyon every couple of years and get wasted on 4th of July, Thanksgiving , Superbowl Sunday, i.e. designated drunk days.
Other than that it is a meaningless existence that average Joe has to go through BECAUSE he has a family.
That's the trick, amerifags. Get you to marry your high school sweetheart, become a "homeowner" by getting a mortgage, and lease a really nice car for $199-299/mo. Why do you think 80% of movies that come out of hollywood perpetuate the American myth? There's a hot wife, four bedroom house with a two-car garage for everyone! You just have to sell your labor at the cheapest rate to whichever company will exploit you the longest. Drink beer with your buddies on Friday, watch football on Sunday, but be ready for work on Monday.
>>54463649
>take sentences out of context
>get mad about
Must be hard being dyslexic.
>>54461869
Well, it wasn't. Communism is a classless, moneyless society, in which the means of production is held in common. You can make the argument it was socialism, because the goods were owned by society via the state, but I don't like that, because the people didn't really have that much control on how the means of production were used, or what the state did.
>>54461892
Even if anything you said is true, a world with finite resources cannot expand infinately.
Capitalism is a failed, fatal meme
Imagine a new type of patent. An app patent. If you invent some original new app, you own the rights not only for the technical implementation of the app but also the idea of the app so no one can clone it, this app patent would last two years. After two years it would be free for anyone to clone.
Would this type of new ip-law accelerate or slow the pace of new innovations in app development?
>>54462975
Correction, war makes the world go round.
National Socialism > all
>>54463863
>Lazy niggers
What's new?
>>54461870
The idea of companies do not make microprocessors, The idea of economies and states, and markets do not make microprocessors. The workers make microprocessors.
>These things are made in capitalism though
So what, what point does that make, things are made in every kind of society.
>>54461800
>capitalism is the only way
>doctors w/o borders
Checkmate, bruh.
Capitalism has proven itself to be way more viable in an academic and philosophical sense and also in an empirical sense.
Capitalism has done more to increase standards of living than any driving force in human history.
>>54463958
>yfw charity arose in capitalist societies
>yfw socialists do not support charity
boy have I got news for you...
>>54463917
>Le racism meem
Classic
Racism is just a way for porkie to divide people with similar class interests
This is a photo of a soup line during the biggest crash of capitalism, the great depression. Wealth inequality was massive, and most of the proletariat got the short end of it. This image was chosen because of the irony of the billboard behind it cheerleading for capitalism in the same way you are, in the face of being extremely wrong. If it would help you get the point I can find photos of whites going through the same thing.
>>54463987
>yfw socialists do not support charity
>[citation needed]
>>54463987
>Medieval Europe
>capitalist
>>54463980
>I've created a whole sciene dedicated to telling you how awesome I am, I'll teach it to you for $30,000 a semester
>>54461473
>scientific advancement under gommies
ayy lmao
Ask the Soviets what's good nigga.
>>54463987
What is a gift economy?
>>54463980
>academic
No one in academia takes laissez-faire capitalism seriously.
>philosophical
Why are all the arguments for capitalism utilitarian then?
>Capitalism has done more to increase standards of living than any driving force in human history
Even if that were true, it was at the expense of the absolute majority of the world population. Also, that's another utilitarian argument.
>>54461792
>Does socialism promote technological development? Be sure to show examples like the Internet, personal computers, cellphones, lasers, microchips, LCD, led, ATM's, air conditioning, assembly lines, bar codes, etc.
Everything you listed exist today as a result of the competitive fight between 2 political entities (Capitalism and Communism) when corporations were being kept in-line by the governments are oriented more at national interests rather than personal interests.
The moment the Commies fucke up and the political competitiveness ended, corporations stopped being held back,
and in the era of peaceful and free expansion, now the corporations have fucked things up due to being out of control; since being anti-consumer in various shitty ways (see the Intel-AMD chasm giving Intel a reason not to advance shit, but merely take ant-steps while raking in profit despite) is profitable as fuck.
Doesn't help that corporations have more power than governments now, and easily lobby and control government bureaucrats, which translates into shitty pro-corporate anti-consumer laws which benefit corporate pockets, but are bad news for technology and consumers in general.
>>54464044
>yfw all the math books in the libraries have russian last names in them
Gee Billy, I wonder why...
>>54464044
I think I might do that.
>>54464003
>the great depression
Hilarious because more people died in the same time period in Soviet Russia than in the great depression.
>>54464085
But that was just straight genocide.
Also, the Soviet Russian system is not what we're advocating here. Keep using that red herring.
>>54464028
Maybe you should actually take an economics course instead of acting like its all made up hogwash.
There a
>>54464055
Even less take socialist economics seriously. I'm not arguing for laissez-faire capitalism. I'm arguing for monetarist economic policy and neo-keynesianism. Which is actually the majority thought in modern academic economics.
>philosophical arguments
Philosophical in purity of philosophy. There are much less holes in keynesianism such as terrible ideas such as using a Labor Theory of Value.
>even if it were true
Literally read a book. Its true
>at the expense of the absolute majority
Nope. Its done great work for people of all demographics and areas on the earth. Maybe you're falling for the "income inequality is rising" meme? Its actually not on a worldwide scale. And standards of living are rising for lower classes in areas that inequality IS increasing.
>>54464108
No it wasn't, try reading a history book. Communism completely failed to produce a viable crop and starved entire nations to death.
>>54463980
>Capitalism has done more to increase standards of living than any driving force in human history
and before that feudalism has done more to increase the standards of living than any driving force in human history, and before that imperial nation states had done more, and before that agricuturalism had done more and before that cities and before that...
This can go on to before the beginning of time.
>>54464122
Found the Holodomor denier!
>>54464117
>>54464028
cut it off for some reason
*There are whole thousand page textbooks on econometrics that you can look at. I'd recommend http://stat.smmu.edu.cn/DOWNLOAD/ebook/econometric.pdf
>>54464122
>No it wasn't, try reading a history book.
>http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2012/06/21/stalin-hitler-mass-murder-starvation/
>>54464122
I get what you're referencing, but
>failed to produce
heh, yeah, I might not be remembering it correctly, but didn't soviets keep selling grain to other countries during that period of time?
>>54464123
So come up with something better instead of promoting a system that is founded on bad math and lousy criticism and hasn't proven itself at all.
>>54464122
>USSR
>Communist
It's almost not worth arguing with you at this point, but I'm going to try. I'm going to let you know though, that I don't advocate for USSR2: electric boogaloo, I don't even like the first one. So don't say that when you give me another (you)
Yes, it was the great depression, the USSR couldn't create a viable crop, much like the infallible capitalist society couldn't create a viable crop.
>>54464157
>>54464108
>>54464165
>When the Russians have accidentally famine themselves to death that often people don't even know which one your referring to
Shit nigga
>le real communism hasn't been tried before, it'll totally work this time and pigdog capitalism will be dead forever meme
hella f*ckin eric
>>54464171
I am, actual communism
>bad math and lousy criticism
I actually have no idea what you mean by this could you explain.
ITT political retards. This is worse than /pol/. I thought /g/ had standards.
>>54464178
>le epic ruseman of vague claims
>still no substance
>>54464200
>actual communism
How would you even implement that without shit like free energy?
>>54464122
>Communism completely failed to produce a viable crop and starved entire nations to death.
Russia has starved itself many times in the past, before Communism was even invented.
As far as Communism itself goes, there are Commie nations that haven't starved at all (Yugoslavia, Cuba and others in South America). Under Russian Communism, Ukraine and others starved as a political decision, which could have been made by a Capitalist Government as much as a Communist government, irrelevant to the governing system, but relevant to governing interests.
You are fucking retarded son. Extremely fucking retarded.
>>54464184
>>54464206
If you want to discuss the merits of political systems, go to /his/. Why you'd expect real talk from the hopeless autists and memers of /g/, or the neo-fascists and ironic memers of /pol/, I'll never know.
>Unironic communists
>>54464240
IT WILL WORK THIS TIME I SWAER ON ME MUM
>>54464200
Have you read Kapital? Very little of it was done with respect to empiricism. He wasn't going around running studies. He was constantly building up philosophical arguments against capitalism and using his own homebrew equations to solve them.
His criticisms were at times apt, but also relied on philosophy instead of empirical evidence. It falls in the same trap as Austrians but with a smarter originator. Instead of doing endless praxeology, he was making his own equations and self-referencing as evidence. Anyone can see why this is bad.
Bad math is wrong, bad methodology and lack of a scientific approach to his math is better.
>>54462650
would you like me to show you pictures of dying kids who can't have access to water because of Nestle? Or the labor of children making iPhone to maximize profits?
>>54464232
i thought this was a pretty good thread so far.
>>54464246
lol'd
>>54464178
>th-the holodomor was a total accident, g-guys...
>>54461773
corporations can't lobby for barriers if the government isn't powerful enough to raise them, i.e., if regulations are clear simple and neutral, if you don't need "connections" within the government to open a business etc.
social-democrats are the ones who profit the most from corporate lobbying, it fits exactly their view of running the State full of business barries.
>>54464216
I don't see why communism would need free energy if capitalism doesn't. As for anything else like means of production or power, it would be held in common, descisions would be made by people in a non hierarchical way by the people that would be affected. Needs and solutions would be decided by the society itself, not just a small portion of it.
>>54464283
Abusus non tollit usum.
The real problem isn't government power, it's Citizens United.
>>54464296
>Needs and solutions would be decided by the society itself,
>society
what a pretty euphemism for government and bureucrats
>>54464268
>Communist governments let nestle walk all over them for ameribucks
>mfw this is used as a pro-communism argument
>>54464268
The universe is flooded with death and meaningless conflict. This is apparent in every system humans have ever devised. Capitalism is effective because in part, it minimalizes human suffering.
>>54464268
While it sucks that they are working kids to the bone, kids were already being worked to the bone before. Sweatshops were a thing since forever and I've seen no evidence that capitalism has increased these.
It may suck, but those children making iphones are in the growing pains period. If you look, standards of living have risen dramatically in places like china and Signapore and Indonesia since capitalism took over. Eventually, like the rest of the world, their hours worked will fall. Just as most of Eurpoe enjoys sub 30 hour workweeks and USAs rates have been falling.
