>Talking with sister-lawyer
>wondering why beginning lawyers get paid double that of a programmer.
>"Well yea but there are barriers of entry for being a lawyer. Anyone can be a programmer"
Why is this a thing?
>>54438558
>being trigger that an occupation which defends the billions of a corporations has barriers unlike programmers
>>54438577
l'm more annoyed about the part that people think anyone can be a programmer.
>>54438558
The answer is that you should become a lawyer to prove her wrong.
>>54438613
Well its true anyone who completed high school math and does a 6 month training course could find themselves a nice corporate code monkey job.
>>54438678
/thread
>>54438558
1. Kick her ass to make sure she sues you.
2. Represent yourself in court
3. Win agaisnt her
4. Send her a daily email saying "Anyone can be a lawyer"
5. Enjoy next family dinner
>>54438678
>>54438705
I'm calling bullshit. Which corp is hiring codemonkeys for reasonable wages w/o at least a bachelors?
>>54438558
>Anyone can be a programmer
100% True.
Being a programmer doesn't mean anything.
>>54438613
Difference being there isn't a shadowy council of Elder Programmers who make you take a national exam to earn your Programming License and who can revoke your right to program at any time if they find out you can't invert a binary tree on a whiteboard or whatever.
>>54438558
fuck her in the ass anon, that'll teach her to disrespect you
>>54438558
Anyone can be a programmer. You didn't actually pay for a college education just to be a fucking programmer did you?
>>54438719
>reasonable wages
said no where in this thread
>>54438717
keep on truck'n
>>54438558
>Why is this a thing?
Becoming a lawyer means getting a doctorate level degree. Not to mention passing an ethics test and the bar exam a rigorous twelve hour, two day collection of tests (in almost every state). Nor does it mention the responsibility and stress usually involved with the profession.
>>54438558
>>wondering why beginning lawyers get paid double that of a programmer.
They don't tho.
Law is an incredibly saturated field. Even most good ones make very little whereas someone in Silicon Valley or really any big tech company would bang them the fuck out
>>54438613
It's an interesting misimpression.
Because actually being an employable programmer worthy of leading a team and teaching grads/interns is actually something only a minority do well. Furthermore, programming (aka engineering and CS) courses are so likely to employ affirmative action that the "minority employment" problem has become a "minority retention" problem. Basically this misinterpretation floods our field(s) with bad workers, which either gives all of us a bad name or creates an incredibly deep culture of competition, which actually offends the leftist and tends to make them target STEM more.
Meanwhile everyone thinks law is hard when it's actually just memorisation, unless your case is completely unique, you will never need creative critical thinking in law. Finding logically creative people is the holy grail of STEM employment, especially when you attach demographic conditions, like no men or no white people.
Basically, I don't know. I'm a decent programmer and I'm convinced I'm a minority, even if it doesn't seem like that if you're hanging out where programmers hang out.
>>54438721
Clearly it means you can write a program that's worth money.
>>54438736
Pretty sure that's Richard Stallman's role
>>54438812
60k a year, at least.
It's true.
>>54438657
Underrated post
My sides
>>54438558
lawyers put up with all sorts of psychological, social and ethical bullshit that leaves them an empty shell by age 40
also, there is a glut of lawyers, and most lawyers are scumbags
>barriers of entry
maybe for the tier 1 law schools; it's not true for the garbage unemployed lawyers that went through state schools and wound up selling insurance policies
a programmer can have an enjoyable life free of knowing that he didn't screw someone out of their life savings, or send an guilty rapist back out on the street, or protect a huge company that toxified the groundwater of an entire town
your sister is probably compromised and will do anything for money - or she's just being a cunt; and of course not everyone can be a programmer -- just look at the attrition rate in entry level basic programming courses -- and its usually the females that die off first
>>54438835
>Clearly it means you can write a program that's worth money.
And clearly, anyone can be a programmer. Why does this fact trigger you so much?
>>54438872
Because not everyone can write a program that's worth money?
Did you grab her ass?
>>54438558
She is right, that's why there are a lot of curryniggers and chinks working on Silicon Valley and/or similar places, programmers are the accountants of this century.
Being a lawyer actually require having social skills, have a cunning attitude and being capable of rebutting (without chimp out) all kind of arguments, even if all the odds are against you. Also having to deal with a lot of people than want to shit with you in a daily basis.
I am sure all that pressure could break half of /g/ if they were in that position.
>>54438577
>>54438678
>>54438705
>>54438721
>>54438786
>>54438837
So are you guys still in uni and forgot to socialise or look at your neighbours horrible code? Or am I talking to literal high school students?
Anyone can learn syntax, anyone average can learn data structures and algorithms, almost no one knows how to apply these things creatively because it's difficult to do. Yes, we are flooded with shitty half thinking programmers who can't even spell innovation, this is true both in the west and in developing nations.
But find me someone who can find that solution your horde of "code monkeys" couldn't find in their life time.
>>54438899
Truth.
Most programmers only know syntax. It's quite dangerous. Only a real programmer knows how programming can be hard, all the kids simply see maths in word form.
>>54438721
anyone can code, but not everyone has the right mind to be a programmer. the best most people can do is indian-tier blindly copypasting code to match a UML diagram. I've seen people fail basic programming courses at a community college three times.
>>54438825
actually, you only need to pass the bar. you don't even need to be a university graduate to practice law. and technically you can sidestep the bar requirement by not officially being a "lawyer" and just being a layperson advisor, but if you're actually good enough for people to pay you then you could probably pass the bar
>>54438947
You literally watched too much TV
I won't talk about America, but here being a barrister simply means presenting evidence in a boring, sterile room. 9/10 that evidence is either directly related to the case and alluding to a well established law, or a direct reference to an older law or more likely court precedent. Law is boring, which is why it's highly paid despite being half intelligent memorisation machines.
Meanwhile, not only do senior programmers have to figure out what their clients want (aka social skills), they also have to come up with the solutions to how this will be implemented. Logical creativity is so rare, only one man in music (Bach) truly presented it and whenever someone in physics (Susskind, Hawkings, etc) shows it we make huge deals and give them all the documentary coverage. Face the fact, logical creativity is rare. It's the rarest talent. It literally involves a mind that dances habitually on the middle of the left/right brain spectrum.
No, cunts, programming is hard.
>>54439014
>you only need to pass the bar.
What is required to sit the bar exam? A J.D. (or LLB) from an ABA accredited law school and passing the MPRE?
>>54438947
I've met a few pooloos who rank among the smartest people I've met, but most of them are fucking retarded. The only reason they work in IT is because they're really really really cheap and on paper they are technically the same as regular humans. In reality, the work produced by indian teams is so bad that it starts to drag down the company, but it takes years for something like that to influence profits. So the company's revenues go up in the short term and the CEO gets a big bonus. When the company starts to fail because none of the products work anymore, the CEO gets a severance package and they hire a new CEO to clean up the mess.
this is why I never trust proprietary software, because at any time 4000 indians can be hired to utterly ruin the program and I'll never know until it's too late
>>54439039
maybe in some places, but in most places I'm familiar with, anyone can take the test
whether anyone will be willing to hire you if you didn't go to law school is another question
>>54438558
Isn't a lawyers average starting like 40k?
I'm only a junior sitting at a 90k + bonus salary, I would be hard pressed to find a lawyer getting nearly as much money as me and that's not including housing stipend, benefits (free cafe and gym), month of paid vacation (albeit this it only adds up to 3 months then ti just becomes more pay, etc.
And especially not the hours I work.
>>54439144
>maybe in some places
Perhaps you should do a bit more research before speaking on a subject?
>Generally, admission to a bar requires that the candidate do the following:
>In most situations, earn a Juris Doctor from a law school approved by that state (often, but not always,[3] this means accredited by the American Bar Association) (indeed, in certain states, e.g., Arizona, one may not actually take the bar exam unless one's law school is ABA accredited, and this requirement has withstood constitutional attack); or, where permitted, participate in an approved Law Clerk program ("reading the law")
>In all United States jurisdictions except Maryland, Puerto Rico, and Wisconsin, pass the Multistate Professional Responsibility Examination (MPRE), an examination covering the professional responsibility rules governing lawyers.
It is the rare state that does not require graduating from an accredited ABA law school AND passing the MPRE to sit the bar exam.
>>54438958
>Yes, we are flooded with shitty half thinking programmers who can't even spell innovation
And who get paid as much as you, the suffering unrecognized genius. I'm not sure what your point is.
>>54438558
if you're client
when people are in trouble or shitty situation , they don't hesitate to pay to get out of it.
>lawyer
>Doctor
now we talk about productivity field, which some time have to think, rethink and bargain to get the most out of it or pay less.
>architect,
>designer
then we have jobs which need high technical requirements and they come with higher pay.
>engineer
>programmer
>>54439029
maybe i'm biased because I live in silicon valley, but many programmers here make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for just making stupid apps that anyone could make.
Both are shit.
Both are piss easy to get into.
Lawyers do have exams and another requirements that programmers don't have. Yet its all memorization. But they're shit people.
The majority of all programmers are shit too.
They take basic highschool math and lean the very basic of syntax and copy/paste everything they find. then they act like they are wizards. Their understanding of logic is shit. To most of them, its all memorization. They are shit.
Fuck it. All jobs are shit. Everyone memorizes their job and they act like robots.
Everyone is shit.
I know this is /g/ and all, but the degree to people will defend being a programmer is hilarious. Saying it takes the peak of all social skills to be a programmer in a project, or to lead a group. Fuckin lol.
It takes no more than any other job of that caliber would.
Talking to girls where you work may be hard for you, but it's not the end of the world like how you may feel.
This is coming from someone that programs and designs circuits and mechanical interfaces all day for a living.
It's all bullshit. Do whatever you hate the least.
>>54439296
My only point is if you say programming is easy and can be done by everyone you either don't know what you're talking or you're so new to programming you're still getting excited about syntax. Either way you don't deserve an opinion.
The fact that the job market is already oversaturated and that racial/sexist hiring is so acceptable both drag down the wages of STEM workers.
You want a point? How about this, the hidden difficulty of programming itself drags down the wages of programmers.
>>54439364
You're right, you are, almost everywhere else it's cutthroat as fuck to get a job out of uni. People advertising jobs can make the wage as low as they feel like.
>>54438558
Unionize. Seriously, why aren't all programmers in a union? We should even get pajeets to join a union
>>54438736
>who can revoke your right to program at any time
Yeah, they're called SJWs.
They knock every once in a while.
>>54439422
Yeah, i bet the disney guys werent unionized.
Most programmers get paid 100k+ straight out of a bachelor's program. Unless you're a Pajeet, or went to a no name school. Then you fucked up.
>>54438558
>>wondering why beginning lawyers get paid double that of a programmer.
That's news to me, last I heard, there was a big shitstorm over how the industry wasn't growing and all the newcomers were having difficulties finding any sort of employment in their fields
>>54438558
I think you're misinterpreting what she's saying.
Maybe "anyone can be a programmer" doesn't mean "any jackass retard can program", it just means that there are no legal requirements you need to meet in order to be a programmer. You walk into a job interview, and if they like you, you're hired. You don't even have to be a fucking citizen of the country. Yeah sure it usually involves a 4 year degree but plenty of programmers have 2 year degrees or no degrees. I'm sure there are also (good) programmers who didn't even finish high school. If your employer likes you, you can get a job.
Compare that with lawyers, who in most states need to go to school for 8 years, then pass a rigorous exam in order to practice law. It's really no contest.
Personally I have more respect for programmers. I think programming as a pure task is more challenging, law seems like it's more memorization and research than critical thinking or problem solving. Also it seems like a lot of lawyers get into law for egotistical reasons. But you gotta admit the career path is way way harder for law people.
>>54439539
your interpretation is well beyond the statement presented
there are no legal requirements for programming, but there are huge cognitive barriers
in my intro programming class there were 50 students, 10 of which had programming classes in high school, and 18 of which were females
after the first week 10 males and 5 females had dropped the class, probably out of lack of interest
after the third week, when the professor started discussing pointers, all but three of the females dropped out and 20 guys were left
by week four, ALL the females were gone, and there were 18 guys left, about 7 of which had taken programming in high school
its not like law school where you can be an imbecile for 4 years and then regugitate shit on the bar exam -- programming problem solving skill is the barrier
and if you want to know how many people were left after linear algebra the second year just ask
>really no contest
you're right -- given the excessive number of shitty lawyers, there is no real limit to getting a law degree
Lawyers have a responsible profession.
Programmers have to release bug fixes.
Not everyone can be an embedded programmer whose code failing kills people
Would you trust a lawyer to handle a traffic ticket? Most are too fucking incompetent.
Would you trust a programmer with your car, the International Space Station, the internet, every single penny of currency digital available, every single digital technology?
>>54439891
>Would you trust a programmer with your car, the International Space Station, the internet, every single penny of currency digital available, every single digital technology?
Not really.
>>54439793
>responsible
delay litigation on a product liability case (asbestos in children's sleepwear) for two decades so that those affected will more likely settle if they don't die first of cancer and lung disease
Why do people have lawyers? Just read the laws niggas, its not rocket science.
>>54439940
Too late. They already finished the job.
lawyers get paid more than programmers because their labor is more valuable than programmers.
WOW HOW FUCKING HARD TO FIGURE OUT THAT WAS. Sounds like your sister hogged all the good genes.
>>54440025
apparently you're not aware that run of the mill lawyers make 60K
its only lawyers in top firms that make $$$
most mid level programmers make more money and have better hours and work conditions (stress level wise) than the typical rank and file grunt lawyer
>>54439950
I studied law and do webdev.
People tend to not understand what they read, because they make assumptions about the meaning of what they read.
For example you wouldnt have to pay taxes over red educational books then a lawyer or programmer would wonder:
What is red? What is educational? What is a book?
But a regular person might declare his monthly magazine about china a red educational book.
Besides the fact that the majority of the population runs on emotion. And often dont even understand what a case really is about or should be about.
programmers are just glorified data incoder.
Because she's right
>>54440071
>I studied law
Oh, so you failed out of your paralegal program at community college.
>and do webdev
Oh, so you make little websites using HTML as a hobby.
>>54438835
>60k a year
kek you think that is good
>>54440128
No I finished a random master degree (law) while starting my own business
(website) in my spare time. Because I dont want to commit to a 40 year gamble hoping I might one day retire before I die.
>>54440071
>People tend to not understand what they read, because they make assumptions about the meaning of what they read
Not too different in comparison with programmers, just look to the GPL licenses, for example.
>mfw stuck in scandinavia
>mfw studying CE
>mfw i will never make more than 50k here
>mfw no one wants to hire Scandi developers in the US
>>54440299
>jamal
