>mfw most people on /g/ still use bloatware X.org server on their distro instead of new minimalistic, compact, super fast, sleek mustard race "Mir" with Ubuntu 16
>>53693715
>tumblr file name
Get >>>/out/
>>53694171
"fuck tumblr" Said the guy on 4chan
>>53693715
>Using outdated mir
>Not using wayland
>>53693715
Except you're still gonna have tons of programs relying on X, meaning you need an X-on-mir layer running making it more bloated than just X.
>>53693715
Stop memeing
X.org is fine
>>53694539
How's the keylogging?
>>53694539
>X.org is fine
>>53694292
Okay landwhale, go back to your shitty blog and complain about it there.
>>53693715
>not using Wayland instead
>>53693715
>implying Mir is a good thing
>implying Wayland isn't better
Found the Canonical shill
>>53695086
>Implying Wayland is good
Found the Red Hat/NSA shill
>>53695119
>implying Wayland, which everyone supports and which is being developed by experienced developers, is better than Mir, which is being developed by Canonical simply because they want to control the whole GNU/Linux world
>>53695195
I'm not implying Mir is better. You're misrepresenting my stance. I'm just implying Wayland is a piece of shit.
>muh CSDs
>muh W95-esque blocking event model
>muh developed by Red Hat simply because they want to control the whole systemd/Linux world
>>53695086
>It's not possible to use a RDP on Wayland by faulty design.
>Wayland was supposed to replace Xorg but is already a failure from the beginning.
I am just happy there are going to be more Xorg replacement alternatives. One of them will kill it finally.
>>53695229
My mistake: It is actually possible and has already been done but it isn't possible to do it fast and efficient without killing your bandwidth.
>>53695195
At least Mir works
>>53694351
Underrated
>>53695195
>which everyone supports
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Last time I checked, every developer I talk to about the subject pretty much thinks Wayland is a nightmare just as bad as X.org.
Will it replace it? For sure, thanks to Red Hat's fingers in all of this.
Will it be any better? Probably not.
Does Mir have something like a tilling WM?
>>53695408
No but it has Unity 8. Who are you heathen to defy Unity 8?
>>53695405
>Last time I checked, every developer I talk to about the subject pretty much thinks Wayland is a nightmare just as bad as X.org.
[citation needed]
>>53695408
Basically Canonical took the wayland protocol and purposely made it incompatible with wayland and then packaged it with a display server, display manager, and desktop environment. Mir is kinda like X 2.0
When will wayland finally be useable
>>53693715
I'm not upgrading my OS before Debian 9 hits stable.
Glad that you guys are beta-testing both wayland and mir for me.
>>53695209
Wayland is developed by Intel and Samsung primarily.
>>53695479
If you use one of one of the open source drivers or the latest Nvidia drivers and a wayland compositor it is usable but not all applications have been ported over.
Wayland will win, no matter how "terrible it is".
It has a leaner license than Mir.
Wayland will be a default on Fedora 24 GNOME.
KDE announced wayland support.
MATE announced wayland support.
Mir only has and will have Unity on it's side.
Sailfish OS is pretty much Fedora with Wayland and it's an already released product.
>>53695479
why do people think Wayland is a Window Server?
that's like saying X11 is a window server....
>>53693715
>using a washing-up liquid as a display server
>>53695516
Sailfish OS isn't Fedora at all.
It has more in common with Debian than Fedora through its lineage.
>>53695377
Really?
Because GNOME on wayland is relatively fine, but the last time I checked on Mir I didn't think it would be ready for 16.04.
>>53695543
>systemd
>wayland
>RPM package manager
I'm going to say my point still stands
>>53695537
Mir means peace/world in russian
I'll wait for a compositor for Wayland comparable to Compiz 0.8 (KWIN has a shit-ton of dependencies) and also Nvidia support (not using nouveau, I'm not retarded).
>>53695589
Canonical confirmed for Ruskie Commie Spies
>>53695443
With some anonymity:
“I don't want wayland to fail, I want it to actually fix problems with x11. it seems they don't know how, probably because the folks behind wayland are the same ones who broke X11 even worse in the 90s and on”
-an xmonad developer
“wayland is actually a terrible design. it has apparently reintroduced the global synchronous message queue, which is why broken programs on older windows and os/2 could hang the entire window system”
-another anonymous wm developer
“I find it fascinating that wayland copied MS Windows' broken approach”
-developer of a media player
“wayland itself is a disaster”
-primary developer of a wayland compositor
“the linux desktop is dead before it even had a chance”
-in referencing issues with wayland
I can provide more specific chat logs if you'd really like, but I picked out some of the more general statements.
>>53695595
>not using nouveau, I'm not retarded
how does that make you not retarded?
Trusting nonfree, GPL violating and kernel tainting drivers sounds pretty retarded to me.
>>53695595
>and also Nvidia support
http://www.nvidia.com/download/driverResults.aspx/100577/en-us
Still being beta tested though.
>>53695624
Buying a card for 500$ with GPGPU and OpenGL 4.5 support and have a driver limiting you to GPGPU and OpenGL 4.0, plus no reclocking is retarded.
>>53695642
Neat. Fucking finally.
>>53695659
what do you need your $500 GPU for?
>>53695659
well ya, buying a $500 freedom denying piece of shit is pretty dumb.
>>53695616
>“wayland is actually a terrible design. it has apparently reintroduced the global synchronous message queue, which is why broken programs on older windows and os/2 could hang the entire window system”
Fuck, that sounds like a big issue
>>53695499
The problem is Red Hat is leveraging the situation to further tighten their grip on everything linux.
The future will be GNOME/Wayland and you better like it. “User control; who needs that?” “Customization? Never heard of it”
Linux will just be the next big app mill. Your programs better integrate with GNOME-over-Wayland, and maybe if you're lucky enough KDE-over-Wayland.
Red Hat is pathologically infecting the entire Linux desktop market in order to further close their ecosystem to outside resistance, and forcing you to either use everything Red Hat or nothing Red Hat. Wayland is one of the “reforms” they are pushing in order to enact this.
It's increasingly becoming Red Hat's toy. (After they failed to take over X11)
“I only see it succeeding if the community comes up with the guts to tell Red Hat to fuck off.” -an X11 hacker
>>53695690
Games, playing with computer graphics, watching movies, 3D rendering, physical simulations, deep learning.
>>53695693
What's the alternative?
>>53695690
Not him but I use my GTX 970 for watching videos at 4K 60 Hz.
>>53695704
Not as big of an issue as forced client-side decorations and all elimination of program's control over their own behavior.
“Oh neat, I'll just pass this mpv option to make the window always be cent- nope, mpv can no longer influence its position. Better hope your compositor has a center-mpv option!”
I hope you look forward to a future of every window using a different title bar and close buttons. I hope you look forward to a future of every program, even simple terminals, needing to pull in all of Gtk in order to draw basic things like frame borders.
I hope you look forward to a future of a single crashed program resulting in an unresponsive window that you can no longer control or forcibly close.
>>53693715
>using a display server
>not using CLI
>not running your few graphical needs in frame buffer
>>53695705
Nice source, cuckold.
wayland was literally something that was called for by xorg developers.
>>53695616
Sources? Sounds pretty interesting.
>>53695729
don't worry I'm sure red hat will come up with some undocumented unstable logind-dependent dbus api to do this
>>53695616
>“wayland itself is a disaster”
>-primary developer of a wayland compositor
my sides
>>53695734
>“most of the problems with "Wayland" are actually with Weston; Wayland itself is sane, but what they're *doing* with it is broken” -same X11 hacker
>>53695741
My IRC logs. Somebody asked for me to back up the idea of every developer I talked to about the subject hating wayland (apart from wayland devs, who told me to leave their IRC channel after I told them that I as a user don't want CSDs), so I pulled out some of my more memorable conversations on the matter.
>>53695229
literally no one uses RDP
>>53695753
Good, fuck them. I already have Red Hat mostly purged from my system. I still use QEMU out of lack of an alternative, and eudev because my neckbeard is not long enough to consider alternatives yet.
I already go around patching the programs I use to *remove* dbus support, just so I can run a system without dbus on it. I fully intend to continue this war, and maybe defect over to BSD once Linux as a whole becomes an unusable piece of mainstream garbage.
Problem: X has legacy functionality that isn't used now, and is basically a huge message broker.
Proper solution: remove from X unneeded functionality, optimize the code-base.
Currently pushed solution: let's do everything again, in a incompatible, worse way! Let's require everyone to change their software for no benefit!
Wayland is literally just a protocol, it has no control over anything. The current implementations of the wayland protocol might suck(according to you) but then someone could create a better implementation and things will be good again. Devs at the X.org project made the wayland protocol because X was essentially too bloated for modern usage. The way the X server was being used(ie barely at all) wasted cycles doing work that was pointless; X was hindrance to performance and security even so devs sought to remove the X server from the model altogether.
>>53695765
>who told me to leave their IRC channel after I told them that I as a user don't want CSDs)
Wow. I've talked with the northwing guy they banned from their channel some time ago, seemed like a cool and competent guy. I guess wayland/weston is a sect, where everyone, who spouts heresy is expelled.
>>53694833
is it triggering you?
>>53695793
>eudev
vdev looks promising
>>53695822
See: >>53695803
Also, the fact it's a protocol and everyone is free to do things in different, incompatible ways, is a flaw.
>>53695765
>>“most of the problems with "Wayland" are actually with Weston;
So the perceived problem with wayland isn't actually with wayland at all it's just with the reference compositor that no one uses in the first place. Why is this significant at all then?
>forced CSDs
Martin Graesslin (kwin dev) is trying to implement Server-Side Decorations, so maybe there'll be progress on this side.
>>53695575
SUSE, Mageia and Fedora uses incompatible rpm packages.
Sailfish OS doesn't use yum or dnf either.
Sailfish is based on Mer, you should look at that instead you moron.
>>53695873
I'm pretty sure large portions of Weston are used in other compositors. Not easy to implement DRM rendering.
>>53695543
Just want to add this to my post.
>>53695405
lots of FUD regarding Wayland but most people on both sides of the fence don't actually know what they're talking about
>>53693715
>bloatware
Nice meme
>>53695825
>I guess wayland/weston is a sect, where everyone, who spouts heresy is expelled.
Welcome to Red Hat general
See:
>systemd
>pulseaudio
>GNOME+components
>Gtk+
>weston
>libvirtd
>(k)dbus
>PolicyKit
>SELinux
>XDG
>NetworkManager
And whatever software follows this same development philosophy and causes every sysadmin billions of problems.
It would be sad if it wasn't so true. How often have you heard something like “it's a feature, not a bug” or “you're just using it wrong”? How often have they come in and shitted all over the status quo, putting everybody into a half-broken limbo for a few years while maintainers desperately clean up after them?
How often have they provoked an unholy rage out of Linus?
Red Hat is the cancer killing the linux desktop, I'm telling you.
>>53695948
I have said this before and I'll say it again, Wayland and Weston were made by Kristian Hogsberg in his own free time at first but later on it gained support from Intel.
>>53695904
I can't verify that but from what it sounds like there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from just not basing their compositor on weston. I'm pretty sure GNOME3 and KDE5 aren't going to copy paste weston just to get wayland support.
>>53695971
Weston is actually being refactored into libweston so you can base your own compositors on top of them.
Personally, I'm hoping for something like Orbment to take off: https://github.com/Cloudef/orbment
This will provide the necessary infrastructure to make your WM (or whatever) just another plugin to a common server that takes care of all the hard parts.
>>53695948
That's true, but still, I'll take RedHat in favor of Canonical every day.
>>53696009
Canonical just does their own shit.
They barely have any influence outside Ubuntu.
>>53695971
>there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from just not basing their compositor on weston
Depends on what you mean by basing. You can write the rendering code yourself, not looking at weston, but it'll turn out to be similar. And also, why waste time on writing complex code that's already out on MIT license?
But that doesn't mean the non-rendering part has to be same.
>>53695999
>libweston
>libinput
I like this. Might start writing a compositor. Now if only libinput supported Wacom serial tablets.
>>53696009
Same desu
I want a distro that is quick, has a modern DE that doesn't just have as many features as Windows XP and isn't choppy on my $200 GPU
Is it too much to ask? Fucking both Gnome 3 and KDE just choke like shit. It almost tempts me to try this.
>>53696061
>run extremely bloated DEs
>it's all X's fault!
>>53696061
xfce
>>53696061
GNOME and KDE are both huge piles of shit. You're probably best going with MATE but that has its own share of problems.
>>53694833
Lol u triggered
>>53696061
Compiz + AWN or Cairo-dock.
>>53696061
lxqt+compton
>>53696079
I'm not going to claim that, I'm just saying I'd rather try with that
And regardless of being bloated it still should be able to handle them fine, we're not talking about a laptop. My computer has no business having no trouble maxing out GTAV and then getting sluggish with a fucking DE.
>>53696093
>>53696095
I'm going for new features, I need something more than applets on a taskbar.
>>53695729
>Not as big of an issue as forced client-side decorations
this is entirely up to the compositor itself, for example Weston requires it but KDE draws decorations server side.
>and all elimination of program's control over their own behavior.
good. no more godawful applications with shitty unpredictable and broken behavior like steam. now your wm is an actual wm.
> Better hope your compositor has a center-mpv option!
have you actually looked at Kwin's rule set? it can do everything mpv's switches can and then a fuckton more. I kinda miss it after moving to xfce.
if you don't like the way your wm works under wayland just fucking use another. nothing changes in the regard. unless you use gnome or weston like some retard.
>I hope you look forward to a future of every window using a different title bar and close buttons.
>I hope you look forward to a future of every program, even simple terminals, needing to pull in all of Gtk in order to draw basic things like frame borders.
what the god damn fuck are you talking about? do you have any fucking clue how dynamic linking works? do you not realize X11 apps already lean on Qt and GTK for theming?
again, server side decorations are a trivial thing to implement. and nobody's going to want the clients to do it save perhaps for a few corporate devs, which already fucking do it anyway (skype steam spotify etc).
>I hope you look forward to a future of a single crashed program resulting in an unresponsive window that you can no longer control or forcibly close.
>what is wl_client_destroy
>what is SIGKILL
>what is >>>/v/
go read the actual fucking wayland spec and you'll see what it can and can't do, and what few things is actively prohibits. nearly all of the hearsay bullshit you're spouting is shit not covered by wayland and left up to the compositor.
X offers: "good enough" remote desktop/application over SSH, a common I/O layer that guarantees a degree of consistency between different WM/DEs, a legacy older than you and all the software that comes with it, a little bit of tearing when you pile on a million extensions for "modern desktop graphics"
Wayland offers: Remote desktop/application being wholly compositor-dependent, no consistency on a compositor to compositor basis, recently made gtk3/qt5 shit that's nothing but a compilation of worthless "yet another X for linux but made our way" software, now with consistency-destroying cancer like client side decorations, tearing-free spinning cubes
>>53695822
>Modern usage
Spinning cubes and drop shadows. Just say it. Modern RICE, not modern USAGE.
>someone will make a better one
no standards is no standards is no fucking standards
welcome to "well use a different one"-ville, the nightmare linux was once made out to be but wasn't
>>53696168
>good. no more godawful applications with shitty unpredictable and broken behavior like steam. now your wm is an actual wm.
There should be a whitelist though.
Also, when will KWIN not require to install a gigabyte of useless KDE dependencies?
>>53696061
Run a tiling WM like god intended
>>53696168
>what the god damn fuck are you talking about? do you have any fucking clue how dynamic linking works? do you not realize X11 apps already lean on Qt and GTK for theming?
t. red hat shill
No, most of my programs do *NOT* use GTK or Qt. In fact, I want it that way. GTK and QT and both fucking off themselves for being unconfigurable, buggy pieces of shit.
>wayland only future
>want middle click paste and a little control over keybinds and window rules
>have to use shitty neckbeardland compositor that only does tiling layouts defined in 3000 lines of hipster functional language
>or feminismland compositor that's configured entirely in non-triggering XML and lacks basic features because the programmers didn't know how to implement them
>or bloatland compositor that depends on half a DE and only does half of what you want
>no more extremely diverse ecosystem of WMs that all work similarly outside of the way they arrange and decorate windows
>no more "just use sxhkd"
>"write your own" "start a fork"
>the FUD is now real
>>53696241
>sxhkd
Is that like xbindkeys?
call me when I can run wayland/mir/whatever on an m68k like I can do with X
>>53696272
Xbindkeys is deprecated
>>53696208
>There should be a whitelist though.
I don't disagree. my main beef with wayland is that it doesn't implement any notion of client privilege, and its devs actively refuse to add it.
I understand that for an organization like redhat, X11 is problematic seeing as it's fucking swiss cheese security wise. but for regular desktop clients that don't run SELinux (which is necessarily to make wayland secure at all) and would like to sacrifice a bit of security for a bit of convenience (eg compositor agnostic screen capture tools), wayland kinda sucks right now.
>Also, when will KWIN not require to install a gigabyte of useless KDE dependencies?
I don't know, but nothing kwin does is special or unique. I just found it to be unusually extensive.
>>53696223
>anybody that disagrees with my preteen FUD bullshit is a shill
I miss pre-/pol/ 4chan
>No, most of my programs do *NOT* use GTK or Qt.
and they'll keep not doing so because that's up to the devs
>>53696241
>"write your own" "start a fork"
or hope really fucking hard that new standards pick up the X11 slack wayland is not picking up
what you're doing right now though is blaming it for not overreaching and basically being X12
>>53696302
Why? I'm still using it.
Fortunately the whole CSD thing is fairly easy to patch away, at least in Gtk3:diff --git a/gtk/gtkwindow.c b/gtk/gtkwindow.c
index 53f74e8..37d7aa8 100644
--- a/gtk/gtkwindow.c
+++ b/gtk/gtkwindow.c
@@ -5771,30 +5771,12 @@ gtk_window_should_use_csd (GtkWindow *window)
GtkWindowPrivate *priv = window->priv;
const gchar *csd_env;
- if (priv->csd_requested)
- return TRUE;
-
if (!priv->decorated)
return FALSE;
if (priv->type == GTK_WINDOW_POPUP)
return FALSE;
-#ifdef GDK_WINDOWING_BROADWAY
- if (GDK_IS_BROADWAY_DISPLAY (gtk_widget_get_display (GTK_WIDGET (window))))
- return TRUE;
-#endif
-
-#ifdef GDK_WINDOWING_WAYLAND
- if (GDK_IS_WAYLAND_DISPLAY (gtk_widget_get_display (GTK_WIDGET (window))))
- return TRUE;
-#endif
-
-#ifdef GDK_WINDOWING_MIR
- if (GDK_IS_MIR_DISPLAY (gtk_widget_get_display (GTK_WIDGET (window))))
- return TRUE;
-#endif
-
csd_env = g_getenv ("GTK_CSD");
return (g_strcmp0 (csd_env, "1") == 0);
>>53696382
I expect GUI libs will implement something similar where rudimentary CSD can be provided when the compositor doesn't do it
we already had a fuckton of fragmentation in that regard anyway, with every WM having its own themes and designers having to support each
>doomsaying fags went silent
I'll be there to shit on you next time
>>53696463
Clearly everybody should just be using xmonad to begin with.
>>53695834
>>53696097
>landwhale trying to samefag
>mfw
