Looks like the old thread is about to cap.
So, Vulkan vs. DX12 - what's going to happen?
We're going to have Google and every other company besides Apple and Microsoft behind Vulkan, which is being used not only for gaming graphics but for the low level graphics API in Android and probably other shit, too.
Vulkan will work on everything(desktop linux, Android, OS X, iOS, Windows 7,8,8.1,10). DX12 will only work on Windows 10 and XBone. Will this be like DX11, where Microsoft essentially hit themselves in the forehead with a ball peen hammer? It seems like this will happen but only worse since Microsoft is no longer the trend setter, nor the monopoly in the tech industry. I think Google will win.
Prepare for shitflinging.
>>53027849
>Google and every other company
>Vulkan will work on everything(desktop linux, Android, OS X, iOS, Windows 7,8,8.1,10)
And this would matter for actual games... how? Windows, xb1 and ps4 are the only platforms that actually matter for actual games.
Devs are used to dx, and dx exists for xb1 and PC... while vulkan is PC only out of those 3...? Devs will have to be bribed (or be valve) to use it.
Yes android has some meme&pay to win games, and linux has some games (mainly valve wanting to push steamOS). But they are not platforms taken seriously by big devs. The biggest game both by players and revenue has no problems from not having a linux client.
>>53028039
A lot of people are still using win 7. If I can get away with never upgrading to 10, I'm definitely opting for that.
>>53028039
>Yes android has some meme&pay to win games
>not serious
Are you really that ignorant? It's fucking skyrocketing. Your opinion doesn't matter.
>>53028097
dx11 > vulkan for windows 7
>>53028039
DX12 IS FOR W10 AND XBOX ONLY
DX12 WILL NOT COME TO 7 OR 8
DX12 WILL NOT COME TO 7 OR 8
Who has the most market share? Windows 7. That's what devs will target, ergo they will have to use Vulkan.
Microsoft no longer has market dominance and lacks the money to bribe people to use DX12.
Additionally, the money is in mobile now. Vulkan will be used there, and so the most supported API will be Vulkan.
Whatever "real games" you're thinking of are now niche products. People are on mobile devices now.
>>53028150
and your proof is?
>>53027849
isnt vulkan/mantle/dx12 very similar?
i dont think there will be an issue porting between them, so the one with best performance will win, i forsee dx12 will beat the dick out of the rest in console/pc gaming.
>>53028189
Why?
>>53028150
Why?
I'm open to what you all have to say but just proclaiming superiority isn't good enough.
>>53028163
>>53028310
>>53028143
>>53028161
Have you tried them? there's like a handful actually good games. Yes, it makes a lot of money mostly from pay to win and kids games and such. But these are generally not on PC, and >does absolutely not compete< with actual games that run dx today, and as such is not a threat to dx just like openGL isn't today.
>>53028097
>>53028161
>win 7
Windows 10 is only ~2% behind and growing every month. At this rate it should be the biggest next month (on steam).
Additionally, devs that care about win7 users boycotting them can include dx11, like devs always do now. Alternatively, a big game can force a most of it's fans to upgrade.
>>53027849
Why? Just why, make somethign new, when there's OpenGL already.
Why not just make OGL better instead of making just another suit of shit...
As much as I want Vulkan to replace DX I don't think it will happen.
DX12 will become the new standard in a few years, not because it's better but because Micrososft has more money.
>>53028481
OGL is so biblically shit it is beyond saving.
>>53028319
>day one benchmark without proper optimisation
yeah, you convinced me winshill
>>53028161
>>53028456
Another thing to take into consideration:
Most mobile games, especially those that make a lot of money are very simple 2D games that could run on on anything. Why would those devs care about vulkan?
>>53028500
you can keep believing shit with no proof or you can look at what we have now and see how shit vulkan is and will be.
>>53027849
This feels like the good ol' days of OpenGL 1.2 and D3D 6. Except no based Glide, and Vulkan isn't restricted to PC
DX12 and Vulkan is going to coexist.
>>53028310
looks the same for me
>>53028594
All I'm seeing is an image that can be done with photoshop in less than 5 minutes, for all I know all of those numbers could be wrong.
>>53028594
>you can look at what we have now and see how shit vulkan is and will be
I see every single relevant Silicon Valley company supporting Vulkan except for Apple and Microsoft, most likely because these people are crying in fetal position under their bed.
>>53028594
yeah, all of that companies support shit because they don't have knowledge of average neckbeard /g/ user. they have no idea. you must warn them. please be our hero. save us.
>>53028727
>>53028696
>company supporting something means its good
You know they are all just there just in case because it's no investment right?
>>53028319
Why there are such tremendous differences?
After all it's the same GPU, why API makes so much of a difference?
>>53028499
Why so?
Why when every new version came out almost nothing performance-wise was fixed?
>>53028806
Same reason different compilers give different output.
>>53028495
Microsoft doesn't have more money than Google, and add to that, their monopoly is collapsing.
>>53028481
nigga u a dumbass
>>53028593
Look at the games on Android and consider mobile hardware. All devices would benefit from a low level, efficient API.
>>53028594
give it time
>>53028776
>You know they are all just there just in case because it's no investment right?
yeah sure, definitely. they love producing shit.
whatever float your boat winshill.
>>53028319
(you) retard
>>53028319
LOL @ opengl
>>53028829
While i'm not fully clued up on the matter it basically boils down to the fact the basis for opengl is a mess that is so ingrained it can't be fixed. DX11 to a point is the same (just nowhere near as badly due to reasons). Both apis need ditching and re-writing from the ground up.
Lo and behold thats what vulkan and DX12 are.
People are acting like it's the death of Windows and they're going to switch to linux right away.
My beloved niggas, this will take years. What will you do in the meantime?
>>53029205
So why there weren't any attempts to fork/rewrite OpenGL, while maintaining backwards compatibility throu ports? Why they just went satraight down..
>>53029010
>Look at the games on Android and consider mobile hardware. All devices would benefit from a low level, efficient API.
For 3d games with good graphics, yes. For the 2d games that should and could(but don't, because the devs don't give a fuck) have minimal cpu and GPU usage while being played, no.
>>53029266
Khronos has lots of talent but as a consortium its a motherfucker to get them to agree on anything, which is a factor into why opengl has languished unloved. The mere fact AMD came along and went "here, have this shit that works" made everyone jump onboard.
Opengl has catastrophic debugging so being backwards compatable with it is only going to drag vulkan down anyway.
>>53029266
backwards compatibility is killing x86
>>53029388
Backwards compatibility and work software being exclusive to x86 is what's keeping it alive.
>>53029260
>What will you do in the meantime?
Rice my Linux desktop waiting for the day I TES6 releases on Windows, OSX and Linux through Vulkan.
>>53029465
>TES6 releases on Windows, OSX and Linux through Vulkan.
Nice dream.
Maybe tes8 on arm android or something.
>>53029298
All devices. You're not taking into account shit devices in third world countries that people buy because they have nothing else. I still don't think you're considering just how poorly equipped most android devices are, and how much Vulkan will benefit them.
Google+Android+Vulkan is going to win out, taking out DX12 by proxy due to market dominance and Microsoft stubbornness. Mobile is where the money is, not desktop gaming.
I am a diehard lunix faggot that wants to see the YOTLD, but I think this is the most likely way Linux will see wide adoption and triumph over Windows.
>>53028629
I think they will exist as long as Microsoft exists (duh). But it's a dying empire. Vulkan will win.
>>53029944
You think many mobile games are going to use Vulkan? You are delusional. Most of them don't even use a 3d rendering engine directly and use things built on top of webgl. They don't give 2 fucks about performance.
>>53029944
>Mobile is where the money is, not desktop gaming.
lol
>>53030263
I didn't realize that, but I have what I think is a substantial rebuttal.
Think about what this opens up - mobile devices are going to be able to produce console level graphics, which will suffice for most people. This is a new market that I think will take hold.
>>53028319
>better than openGL only hours after release
The future is bright. I can't wait until emulation picks Vulkan up.
>>53030436
>emulation + Vulkan
literally why
>>53030581
Mobile devices getting extra juice from something that isn't openGL and taxing emulators like Dolphin and PCXS2.
>>53028481
Yeah let's just keep using this fucked up piece of spaghetti fuckup shit forever and ever, what could possibly go wrong.
Just because it's open source (which is good), doesn't mean it's perfect.
A complete rewrite was necessary and this exact thing happened with Vulcan.
>>53028310
what kinda shitty bait is this
you're comparing Black Mesa to what looks like the original HL engine...
and there's nothing posted on reddit either.
>inb4 "LE REDDIT FAG GTFO"
>>53030936
reddit get the fuck out holy shit.
>>53027849
Once again it has been proven how stupid /g/ users are
>>53028161
Windows 7 is rapidly declining according to Steam Surveys to the point where next months survey might show it's overtaken. Also DX12 is doing things developers wanted from MS for years like monthly updates and Xbox level support. Anyone making a DX12 game has access to the DX12 engineers and with the AAA studios, MS will fly out engineers to help with issues on games like they do on Xbox and implement it into internal engines. IO's Glacier 2 and Codemasters' Ego Engine
Khronos stuck a bunch of libraries up and said "Use it in a 3rd party engine or Git gud" and openly said it's "low level that might not be for you". The tools are there but the level of support is much lower.
So the issue for the big studios is, do you go DX12 and get support but have to launch on Windows 10 (Which is rising in installs) or do you go Vulkan which is Free (As in free Beer) with any platform but you don't know if it will hang around.
We're gonna see them in dual use. Vulkan on emulators and small slav projects and major studios with DX12. Vulkan hasn't got the capital and has too many conflicting interests to truly take over.
>>53029944
Apple is using their own API because they want to Vendor lock apps into their ecosystem. lol google play Unless you are a F2P skinner box with hilariously low budgets, You don't make money on google play at all. Getting those devs to adopt it unless its bolted onto unity 5 is like ice skating uphill.
Also lol Unity 5 will probably melt phones if used with Vulkan.
>>53031685
Khronos has punched themselves in the nut sack if this is true.
I don't know if Microsoft has enough money to fight the rest of silicon valley, including Google, to keep DX the standard. They're more worried about saving their ass in the mobile sector, which they can't seem to do for some fucking reason.
Also what's this about Vulkan melting phones when using Unity 5?
>>53028319
https://steamcommunity.com/app/257510/discussions/0/412447331651559970/#c412447331651997070
>Our engine is designed really well for multi-threaded rendering, but we have only our wrapper for it - calls to graphics API (like Vulkan) are not multi-threaded. Yet.
>>53027849
>It seems like this will happen but only worse since Microsoft is no longer the trend setter, nor the monopoly in the tech industry. I think Google will win.
I laugh everytime when people boast and write sucker punch lines like this only to lose in the end.
>>53028310
>Vulkan is a masterpiece
>DirectX is unfinished
>>53031954
I think google will win in the end, but I don't know. It's a flimsy prediction, not a sucker punch line.
>>53031954
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
>>53031787
Google is backing vulkan but its not like google cares about it much. There is no investment for them. It will be the same situation as opengl es.
>>53028163
>established system with lots of support vs open source small fish with no support besides some indie devs
will be the same story like windows vs linux, only plebs use linux, what's the market share, like 3% ?
>>53031787
>I don't know if Microsoft has enough money to fight the rest of silicon valley, including Google, to keep DX the standard. They're more worried about saving their ass in the mobile sector, which they can't seem to do for some fucking reason.
They are slowly dropping phones and concentrating on desktop and tablet where they actually did kick apple in the dick and vendors are dropping google (Samsung kicked Google out from thier flagship tablets without even needing to be paid to do it because Google's tablet support has been fucking shit since Lolipoop).
What MS did differently with this gen of DX compared to old gens was that they started treating PC devs like Xbox devs and are giving them just as much support as Xbox devs. That's what is getting developers to adopt it. Square Enix's engines all support it for example. That's the huge difference compared to 10 and 11 where they just said "Here's the manuals. Git gud".
Google is part of Khronos but they really couldn't be bothered giving a fuck and don't really invest. If they really cared about losing apps, they would have announced their own API when Apple announced metal.
>Also what's this about Vulkan melting phones when using Unity 5?
Unity is shit and overheats phones. Especially on Droid.
>>53030436
do you expect vulkan to gain 200%+ performance from this point on? won't happen, optimazation will gain maybe 10-20% tops. and that's still compared to dx11, dx12 is going to eat it alive
>>53032145
>dx12 is going to eat it alive
>>53032084
>Google's tablet support has been fucking shit since Lollipop
Wat. I'm using my 2013 Nexus 7 with Marshmallow and it's still snappy. Is support for non Nexus devices shit?
So, if Khronos decides to give more support to devs, will they be on equal footing with DX12?
>>53032248
>Wat. I'm using my 2013 Nexus 7 with Marshmallow and it's still snappy. Is support for non Nexus devices shit?
Pretty shit on most tablets. Slow, bloated and drains batteries like crazy. Samsung dropping it without needing to be bribed is the biggest turning point.
>So, if Khronos decides to give more support to devs, will they be on equal footing with DX12?
Microsoft goes as far as flying out engineers to studios and embedding them for a few weeks along with 24/7 support most of the year. They used to only do it with Xbox but now they are doing it with DX12. Khronos would have to match that level of commitment and investment. Which isn't likely because of how each member of the group has a different stake.
>>53032145
>dx12 is going to eat it alive
Seeing how DXx12 is basically the same shit as Vulkan, only with microsoft specific bullshit on top of it, there's not going to be much difference there.
Vulkan and DX12 aren't going to do much to increase performance of GPU bound games anyway (ultra-high graphics and stuff), they're only there to decrease CPU usage.
>>53032445
Then the Nexus 7 is an exception. Mine is still fantastic.
Do you think Google will do that for Android devs? They would make a killing if they made Android a better gaming platform. That would fuck up Nintendo's apple cart in the portable gaming industry. Is that worth it? Is the market big enough to be a target?
>>53032592
>Do you think Google will do that for Android devs? They would make a killing if they made Android a better gaming platform. That would fuck up Nintendo's apple cart in the portable gaming industry. Is that worth it? Is the market big enough to be a target?
If google cared, they would have done it. The basic OGL implementation is fine for them and they aren't in a rush to push Vulkan because everything in their chart isn't really graphically intensive. Google's already making more money than Nintendo out of Play store anyway. The people who don't make money are the developers or publishers unless they bot their way or pay google for placement to get to the top of the charts.
>>53028319
This game is using an OpenGL to Vulkan wrapper.
Now knowing that look at the peformance gains Vulkan has over OpenGL with no optimizations and a day one release of the API.
>>53030400
Its going to be slow. Mobile devs dont give a fuck about Android, and Apple just finished releasing their Metal API, so it may be a while before they implement Vulkan on Mobile.
vulkan kinda fucked up release, they should have partenered with devs to have some games ready by yesterday. no excuse seeing as all the drivers have been ready for a while anyway.
because if you aren't better at day 1 in this industry, you're not winning, most /v/irgins are looking at dx11 beating vulkan and drawing no further conclusions than that.
coming equal or "showing great promise" isn't going to cut it. consumers don't want to compromise on their immediate comfort.
>>53034459
Seeing how Unreal Engine and Unity already pledged their support of Vulkan, it doesn't really matter.
Almost nobody is going to be using raw Vulkan to make games, and the people who are using Vulkan aren't shallow enough to that kind of marketing.
>>53034459
>consumers don't want to compromise on their immediate comfort.
Does it matter though, consumers aren't the ones who make decisions on which API should be used, it's the developers. As long as consumers get their games, they couldn't care less.
>>53031513
said a random youtube commentator. how does this matter in any way?
>>53032772
So then the only thing holding Vulkan down is itself and Microsoft pushing DX12...
I guess the only way Vulkan will be adopted as standard is if Valve + Epic + Unreal + Unity + whoeverthefuck fights Microsoft tooth and nail. If They can show Vulkan outperforming DX12, then there is hope.
>>53028319
https://steamcommunity.com/app/257510/discussions/0/412447331651720139/
>A: Let me put it this way: When The Talos Principle came out, it had a very similar frame rate in DirectX 9 vs DX 11. But then we optimized the game, and the drivers were optimized in the meantime, and now D3D11 is 20-30% faster than D3D9! I have a firm belief that this will also happen to Vulkan vs D3D11, over time However, for now you can actually expect lower frame-rate compared to D3D11. C'mon, it's brand new API, give it some time. :)
>>53028161
>microsoft
>no longer has market dominance
>and lacks the money
>>53035002
>Demo of Vulkan on Windows 7 - 120fps
>Demo of D3D12 on Windows 7 - 0fps
I'd think that would be a pretty convincing demo of Vulkan outperforming D3D12 to devs thinking about hitting a larger market for less work.
Vulkanfags are so delusional lol. It was never going to win. The same reason why opengl will never win. Nobody gives a shit.
>>53035169
Even fucking Sony and Nintendo will use Vulkan. DX will be used only on W10 and xbox
>>53035103
The problem is that W10 is gaining marketshare. It's on par with W7, so devs will be tempted to use it as well as being bribed by Microsoft to use it.
Will Vulkan be tempting enough to use it for the wider market share? I just don't know.
>>53035349
If this is true, then Vulkan will do well. I just don't know if it will beat DX12.
>>53035051
Google.
>>53034564
Pledging support and making good on their promise is two different things.
Epic isn't going to dive into Vulkan since the majority of their big licensees and general development is focused on the DX pipeline, so porting everything over to a new API isn't going to be high on their agenda. Since Khronos isn't going to give them any support, let alone support on the level that Microsoft gives them with DX, they'll probably make a fork of UE4 with basic Vulkan integration and let the community play with it but it's unlikely that it'll be a major part of the Unreal Engine, like how OpenGL was with UE2 and 3.
As for Unity, they don't fix anything. The more broken their software is, the more "solutions" they can sell on the asset store. Their DX11 support still doesn't work right, they haven't even started working on DX12, their OpenGL is outdated and even that's way behind on integration, their Linux build has remained untouched for almost a year and they're more focused on making sure Metal works to appease their mobile overlords while ignore every other platform.
The future isn't good for Vulkan.
>We're going to have Google and every other company besides Apple and Microsoft behind Vulkan
>https://www.khronos.org/members/
>Apple and Microsoft both on there
Top kek RIP vulkan.
>>53028039
because now windows won't be the only platform for games. You will be able to game on any linux distro properly. And also your chromebooks and other google PCs
>>53035678
There's been members on that board since OpenGL 2, 3 and 4 and they all still prefer to use DirectX.
>>53035691
loonix is still a hostile environment that you need to actively maintain, as opposed to "just werks" wangblows that breaks only when you poke it too hard
>>53035349
Lol, no they won't you retard.
>>53035691
as soon as your chromebook becomes more than just a browser, it's nolonger a chromebook.
who cares desu
whatever works. windows x11 willl work for sure.
>>53028319
Fury x is snoring higher than the 980 ti with vulkan.
>>53035600
Unreal Engine 4 works on Linux, there's no question about it being on Vulkan anymore.
UE4 will be using Vulkan for large portions of it.
>>53036325
you are retarded
>>53036405
So you think UE4 will stay on OpenGL or something?
>>53036441
They'll move to Vulkan but it won't be a priority or a major feature for them like DX12 is.
>>53036470
What exactly do you mean by that? UE4 on Linux has all the features that it has on Windows, they're functionally identical.
>my keks when already using DX12 for 50% speedups in Dolphin emulator
Vulkan shills are so pathetic, first of all you're an idiot if you're one of those people who refuse to upgrade their win 7/8 to 10, second of all 'Vulkan'
Like wtf is that? Sounds like some nerd shit from star trek instead of a powerful graphics api for high end pc users (which, Vulkan hasn't even give higher performance than dx11 yet so yeah)
>>53036470
No, dude. They're pledging allegiance to Vulkan. They're supporting Vulkan first and DX12 second.
>>53036621
Epic did the same for OpenGL. DirectX was still a priority for them.
>>53035947
There were rumors about Sony using Vulkan for PS4.
Nintendo will announce NX this years and a few months ago joined the Khronos group.
>>53036441
no, it will run dx on windows and if you want to target linux, you can choose opengl or vulkan
>>53036640
>>53036641
If this is true, and companies could just get together behind an open API, why don't they do that and crush Microsoft's monopoly in graphics rendering?
>>53036667
Because no on can agree on anything. It's why Microsoft makes good progress with DX and Khronos keeps dragging its feet with OpenGL/Vulkan.
Too many cooks.
>>53029260
Run Vulkan games through WINE?
>>53035725
Gee I wonder why.
>>53037242
Microsoft butters their buttholes so they stick with DX.
Why the fuck are there so many poos typing shit like Windows 10 has the same marketshare than Windows 7?
>>53029260
Easy, switch to Linux.
>>53037410
It doesn't but it's gaining.
This fact seems critical to me. At launch time, devs are going to maximize profit by using the API which will get them the most money. That would be Vulkan since it is ubiquitous.
>>53037433
OpenGL is ubiquitous as well and look at its adoption rate.
Face it, being able to run games natively on OS X and Linux is NOT and WILL NOT be a priority (or even a glimmer in the publisher's eye) for a very, very long time to come. People care about Windows, and because people care about Windows there's no reason not to use DX12 instead, especially when Microsoft has a well proven track record of updating and maintaining it as opposed to Khronos which has a well proven track record of doing jack shit.
>>53027849
No developer is going to want to deal with barriers and PSOs when writing their graphics apps unless they are making a game. Plus Vulkan is like 2x more wordy than dx12.
>>53037467
In the universal sense, Vulkan is ubiquitous. In another sense, Vulkan is ubiquitous to Windows. DX12 is only for W10 and XBone, and Vulkan works on 7, 8, 8.1, and 10.
At launch time, devs choose what gets them the most money which will be Vulkan since it's available on all Windows platforms.
>>53037410
See pic. 10 is going to be the most popular PC gaymen OS next month.
>>53028310
So vulcan makes your games better designed and balanced?
>>53037653
>Linux still less than 1%
This is why Vulkan is important. Devs are missing out on that crucial 1% market.
>>53037804
Rajeesh please understand that Vulkan supports all the flavors of botnet. Not only that, but it's there for the huge market of Android with the addition of Linux. DX12 is botnet 10 only, and it just recently caught up with Windows 8.1. Let's see for how long the free botnet 10 ride lasts.
>>53037487
but that is what is good about it. more control, and multi-threading. don't forget about the mantle api either.
>>53030581
because why the fuck not, it will be better than the shit they have now. inst even integrated
>>53028189
>closed source APIs have better performance than open source
Okay pal.
>>53028481
Open GL has to be ported to each new graphics driver. Vulkan introduces an API to interface with the same code on every graphics card, the same way DX does. It's a different product.
>>53035349
>Even fucking Sony and Nintendo will use Vulkan
citation needed
Vulkan is dead, long live vulkan.
>>53036667
Because Microsoft realizes the largest group of desktop users / the people with greatest control over home computers is gamers. It's circular.
Windows is the largest platform -> developers dev for largest market -> gamers install the platform with the largest library -> Windows is the largest platform.
>tfw Vulkan won't get an implementation for Dreamcast's KallistiOS because the OpenGL implementation was already so fucking disgusting
>>53037653
>only making games for 33% of the market when you can make it for 100% with the same effort
>>53038714
More like 60%. There's people out there running "gaming" laptops with GPUs that won't work with Vulkan.
>>53028319
Nice choice of game. Beautiful atmosphere.
>>53038740
Anything that can run DX11 can run Vulkan as far as I can tell.
>le amd has no linux drivers ecks dee
>nvidia vulkan drivers are outdated and can't even be installed properly
>>53037653
>>53039406
nvidia is shit all around, they just have money for shills
>>53029136
>open/g/l
>>53028161
The by far largest issue with DX12 and Vulkan is the inherent difficulty in developing for it. You're making it sound like it's an inevitability that developers will switch to low level APIs just because they're there now.
Majority of developers either won't care and simply stick to what they know, or ride off the work of others. In the case of the later, chances are good you'll see the majority of PC games adopting DX11 for older operating systems and DX12 for Windows 10- The DX12 implementation courtesy of Microsoft engineers, like the case with Hitman.
Where Vulkan has a chance to make an impact is in the mobile space, since Android doesn't have any other alternatives. If devs can learn to use Vulkan there, that knowledge may spill over into other platforms as well, but I don't expect a revolution anytime soon, as devs also need to learn how to make the most of the API still.
>>53028667
The numbers aren't wrong, the problem is the implementation. The Talos Principle's Vulkan implementation is very much in beta, and requires testing- That is the only reason why it's publically available at all actually, the 1 guy developing their Vulkan implementation needs the data to make it run better (or at all, for that matter).
>>53028039
sony doesnt use dx12 for ps4
>>53038177
>publishing the code of something automatically makes it faster
>>53042238
>dx exists for xb1 and PC
>sony doesn't use dx12 for ps4
Did he ever claimed that Sony used dx12 for ps4?
And it's not guaranteed that Sony is going to use Vulkan anyway.
>>53027849
Dx12 will be too similar to vulkan and mae it sleasier to port. Microshaft is deed
>>53028319
>better than opengl
You showed them, aniki
>>53028039
Vulkan doesn't work on iOS/OS X. Apple doesn't give a flying fuck, they have Metal. Dunno why Metal isn't being brought up more in this discussion.
>>53038177
it's not open source you retard. Vulkan is an open specification. Implementations are still closed (save Intel's Linux driver). Vulkan is a copyright by Khronos, and you need to pay a large sum of money to participate in Khronos design discussions.
>>53042421
>Dunno why Metal isn't being brought up more in this discussion.
Because OP was talking about vulkan vs dx12. Metal doesn't compete with dx.
>>53042421
Actually, have any of developers made a decent port of their engine to Metal?
>>53039071
>Anything that can run DX11 can run Vulkan as far as I can tell.
>tfw VLIW 6850
>>53028593
Even simple 2D games can be vastly improved with Vulkan - you can remove stuttering, improve quality of particle effects and physics and most importantly low-level API may use less resources.
>DX12 is exclusive to Win 10 which a much newer and more optimized OS with WDDM 2.0
>Vulkan has to support every single deprecated OS out there
And this is why DX12 will have better performance.
>>53042421
because nobody cares about OSX?
>>53043040
> nice Pajeet, 0.002 cents were added to your bank account
Seriously though, I understand where are you coming from, but the most important factor when it comes to graphics performance is driver and optimization, especially the latter is extremely important.
>>53043040
do you have a single fact to back that up?
>>53043040
>better performance
Vulkan: 60fps
DX12: 0fps
That's how it's going to be on most of gaming devices.
>better performance
>>53043125
>most of gaming devices
See: >>53037653
>>53043138
It's not even 40% among Windows machines.
>>53043145
Win 10 has only been out for 6 months and it has already almost overtaken Win 7. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it has more marketshare than 7 in the next survey.
>>53043159
It has been out for 6 month already, with coercing people into installing and it still does not have 40%.
And Windows is not the only gaming platform.
I honestly have no idea what you are hoping for.
>>53043170
>it still does not have 40%
And yet it has the fastest adoption out of any Windows version to date.
>And Windows is not the only gaming platform.
It's the only platform that actually matters. Unless you seriously think mobile means shit when it comes to API adoption.
>>53043187
> And yet it has the fastest adoption out of any Windows version to date.
This statement is meaningless - you are comparing two completely different things.
>>53043159
It's not going to gain 8% market share in a single month, what the fuck
>>53035434
Googled it. Microsoft's at a 15 year high of profits and developers are happy. Developers aren't being bribed to use DX12 either, unless you count "Finally been given access to the same resources Xbox devs get" as "bribery"
>>53035600
This. Vulkan had to be implemented into UE4 by Epic on their own dime and will only be improved by community and their own time and investment. Microsoft sent an engineer team to NC and worked with Epic to implement DX12 and offers engineer support themselves for UE4. If you are a dev. You have a choice of the VK backend of UE4 which if you hit a roadblock, you have to rely on Epic. If it's DX12, you get access to both Epic and MS support. What's better for your game?
>>53041729
That's the biggest advantage MS has. They sent engineers and the creators of DX12 out all over the world and they got DX12 implementation even in 3rd party engines.Square Enix went all in and all their internal engines support it (Glacier 2, Luminous, Avlanache 3.0) because MS had the resources to dispatch the DX12 team. Khronos can only really put out the library, offer support on their forums and say "Git gud"
I haven't seen GNU/NEETs shilling something this hard in a loooonnnnggg time
Remember to filter and report valve marketing threads on /g/.
>>53043728
Stop shitting on our hopeful optimism with your shitty most likely's.
Can't we just hope that Microsoft gets what they deserve for once?
>>53037653
You are not counting 32 bit windows 7
You are still locking out most of the market either way
Can't wait to see linuxfags tears all over again. DX12 is here to stay.
>>53038004
Yeah can't wait to play PC games on android. Retard.
>>53044668
Hasnt really arrived yet since no game uses it
>>53037626
>Videogame devs
>Supporting deprecated OSs
Pick one.
>>53037626
>t launch time, devs choose what gets them the most money which will be Vulkan since it's available on all Windows platforms.
I think tools is a more important parameters than 1% linux userbase. DX12 will have better tools for devs, so devs will just go to the simplest. It's not like linux gamers don't dual boot windows so they can play more than the few indie garbage or smartphone ports that work on linux.
>>53037626
>directx 11 is out
>games mainly ship with both directx 9 and 11
>directx 12 is out
What do you think is going to happen goyim?
[spoiler]no, people are not going to trash directx 12 just because it works on windows10+[/spoiler]
>>53044348
>Microsoft gets what they deserve for once
They already do. They deserve their success.
Based Microsoft
>>53044862
>anti-competitive
>monopolistic
>standards-defiant
>nickel-and-diming
>half-assed product launches
>half-assed product support
>unexpected support drops
>impossibly insecure
>consistently incompetent
>scrollbars in the kernel
basedy ass, greedy snivelling fucks more like it
>>53045343
*based my ass
>>53044862
oh, so you're human cancer.
>>53045343
>>53045436
from a perspective of pure detachment, microsoft deserves its success due to its ability to play the game properly
never in any kind of economy in the history of humanity has "success" been tantamount to "fairness"
>>53044780
>I think tools is a more important parameters than 1% linux userbase. DX12 will have better tools for devs, so devs will just go to the simplest. It's not like linux gamers don't dual boot windows so they can play more than the few indie garbage or smartphone ports that work on linux.
Consumers should demand devs focus on Vulkan, MS will only support DX12 while vulkan is a threat, if they feel they have a monopoly again 3d on PC will stagnate for a decade again.
Also have a look at the disaster that is games on the w10 store, no mods, can't see the game files, no sli, locked vsync among many other issues. It's worse than GFWL and basically turns your PC into a console. If DX12 dominates all they have to do is tie a crucial DX upgrade to the windows store which will likely kill gaming on PCs.
Supporting DX12 means risking losing PC games for ever.
>>53044780
>I think tools is a more important parameters than 1% linux userbase.
You're looking at ~5% combined Linux and OS X user base (if metalVK gets commercial usage) as well as Android and Nintendo and Sony consoles. And probably a buttload other things as time advances.
>DX12 will have better tools for devs, so devs will just go to the simplest.
That hasn't been a compelling argument for DX11 and earlier in a long time. Unity, Epic, id, Crytek (etc) provide the tools and they have for years. They will all support both DX12 and Vulkan.
>It's not like linux gamers don't dual boot windows so they can play more than the few indie garbage or smartphone ports that work on linux.
The vast majority of us would rather not have to install crapware on our machines. Also, stop talking out of your ass. You've never used anything but the pleb shit that comes bundled with your prebuilts and it shows.
>>53045679
>The vast majority of us would rather not have to install crapware on our machines.
It's either MS crapware or valve's crapware. To me it's like choosing between plague and cholera. I don't have sympathy for MS, but vulkan being associated with DRM shit isn't something I'm excited about. I don't play games much anymore because there are so few that are DRMfree and I can install on linux. I don't give a shit who wins, they're the same evil to me.
>>53045589
>Consumers should
They should lots of things, including not use windows, but they do.
>have a look at the disaster that is games on the w10 store
Good luck having a look at anything in that store, it's empty.
>If DX12 dominates all they have to do is tie a crucial DX upgrade to the windows store
What kind of upgrade are you thinking off?
>Supporting DX12 means risking losing PC games for ever.
That's just silly. As long as the market is here it will exist.
>>53045837
>including not use windows
"hurr stop liking what i don't like" - loonixfags
When I search "dx12 vs vulkan" all I find are retarded articles that basically say "hurr vulkan is better" or "durr dx12 is better".
Where can I find a detailed technical comparison?
>only the recent hardware will support Vulkan
I would like to put a drake pic but they are filtered, I just want to say that: lel.
Why the fuck would I bother porting the game to OpenGL Directx and Vulkan just to make it cross platform and budget friendly? Thanks, I will stick to OpenGL.
>>53046971
nowhere.
you need game benchmarks with proper optimisation.
>>53046977
so you don't want to higher framerates with same hardware?
>>53046971
You won' t because DX12 isn't out yet and Vulkan is a 2 day old baby.
>>53046863
Dudebro, Windows is trash. OS X is better.
>>53038328
Pic related. Both Sony and Nintendo will use Vulkan, it's going to become the consoles standard API and Microsoft will be forced to implement Vulkan on Xbox One.
>>53047202
Has it been confirmed that they will use Vulkan? You can be part of the consortium but that means dick all when it comes to actually making things that run on Vulkan.
>>53047202
> Microsoft will be forced to implement Vulkan on Xbox One.
mate, microsoft has to worry about putting out games that will sell on their console, not about which fucking API to use. Graphics at this point dont really matter - gameplay does. They fucked up badly with Halo5 and now what do they have coming out next? Nothing
>>53047225
Let's add to that - why wouldn't Nintendo and PS4 use Vulkan as their API just to give Microsoft a kick in the dick?
>>53047225
Why would they actively contibute to the Vulkan development if not for their own benefits? Especially Nintendo.
>>53047342
Because if they use something they make themselves, they would get more performance and have more control. You are literally saying sony wants to downgrade their graphics API.
>>53047425
As one anon showed, Sony and Nintendo have both contributed to Vulkan's creation. It's partly their API. The "performance hit" won't be.
inb4 proprietary extensions killing vulkan
You think vulkan will solve all the problems ? Well, we'll see when Nvidia, or AMD, will wildly implement tech that will require nvidia hardware.
Free is good, but it doesn't mean forced cooperation.
None of the companies in the Khronos group are your friends and they don't give a shit about how you feel about vulkan, or free software or whatever. Vulkan will be a great way for them to have in-house exclusive techs, and as lots of Khronos are hardware companies, it means exclusive hardware.
This is the future you actually want. This is what killed opengl back then.
>implying majority won't use DX12
Soon Windows 10 will have bigger audience than Windows 7, Vulkan BTFO
>>53047453
They didn't contribute shit. They put their name in there just in case they want to. To make anything that is multiplatform, you sacrifice performance. This is pointless in a console. They probably will only use vulkan if it gains massive market share in indie game space so they can just port games with only a wrapper.
>>53047530
>Windows change: 0%
>OSX change: -0.1%
>linux change: -0.1%
does it imply that BSD got +0.2%?
Year of BSD desktop when?
>>53043170
Linux and Apple have a combined 2%. Are you being willfully obtuse? Devs release on the largest shares in hopes that the more people are exposed to their products. That's the basis of most, if not all, commercial software development. This is literally marketing 101. You go where the users are.
>>53047542
http://khr.io/vulkanlaunchoverview
The companies on that picture are the ones that actively contributed to the developmemt.
>>53047342
>>53047356
>>53047425
>>53047542
Sony forked OGL as their own GNMX API with their own internal features. Nintendo also has a private internal fork of OGL. If they use Vulkan, both will fork it because they don't want to make it too easy to port to PC/Mobile. Neither of them have a reason to switch and if they do, they will just make it proprietary because they don't want more competition in the sector and neither wants it to be easy for 3rd party to eaily run versions with less dev time. PS4 supporting Vulkan would be market suicide if the NX is a stronger console and supported Vulkan because it reduces the costs massively for publishers and Nintendo and Sony does not benefit at all.
They benefit by investing in it, then taking the best tech internally and making it exclusive to their platform. Same happened with OGL. Same that's going to happen to Vulkan.
>>53047753
>PS4 supporting Vulkan would be market suicide if the NX is a stronger console and supported Vulkan because it reduces the costs massively for publishers and Nintendo and Sony does not benefit at all.
But why? They'd want to reduce developer overhead as much as possible to get devs to make games for their system. It's not about silencing competition from others, it's about making their own platform more viable by offering more games. Opening up to devs who want the same thing (more games on more platforms means more money).
Yes, they can and probably will fork Vulkan for their own internal development but it would be retarded not to offer other devs the opportunity of using Vulkan who want to get their games to as many platforms as possible.
>>53047978
Why do they want to make Nintendo's life easier by supporting an API that will make Nintendo's consoles look better and make it easier for them to get games. Sony already has a lower level API forked from OGL. They want developers to be using that instead with their own technology. They want more devs making games on their platform. Not on competitors' platforms.
>>53047978
>>53048118
Maybe they'll use their proprietary optimized Vulkan fork and a Vulkan wrapper. First parties and third parties that want to get maximum performance can use the low level proprietary API, third parties or indies that don't focus on performance can use the wrapper.
>>53048118
Because they're making their own lives easier by getting more support for their platform. If you offer the opportunity for devs to use what they want instead of your own locked down API, then more devs will make games for you. It's a double edged sword.
>>53048268
>>53048551
But they lose the chance to vendor lock games and push technology exclusive to their console and API. Apple is already doing it and Khronos had to damage control with a wrapper on top of metal forked in by another dev (And any Apple dev will just use Metal because Google Play is a fucking trash heap that's not worthwhile to launch on). There's no business incentive for Sony or Nintendo to switch to Vulkan from their own internal OGL forks as it doesn't even reduce costs and opens the market wider for a disruptive competitor to come in and take all their games. If Sony was planning to support it, they would have announced it loudly at Vulkan's launch, even.
>>53047530
Vulkan runs on Windows 10
>>53048643
>But they lose the change to vendor lock games and push technology exclusive to their console and API
Correct, and devs fucking hate that. They can make their super secrit hi-performance API for their in house games, but they better fucking offer a way for devs to port their games to as many machines as possible. Double edged sword.
>If Sony was planning to support it, they would have announced it loudly at Vulkan's launch, even
Perhaps, but it's also possible that they're working out support for it and don't want to tell people about a golden egg that isn't there. They've already got GNMX.
>>53048268
>>53048551
If they use their own proprietary extensions and modify the API, it wouldn't matter if it's based on vulkan because it wouldn't be cross platform anyways.
>>53041625
this
the
>nvidia has good drivers meme
is completely fucking insane
>>53037653
windows 7 autists BTFO
>I didn't upgrade to 10 because I'm afraid of telemetry! That means that Vulkan has an important and exclusive market on Windows 7
seriously people are autistic, everyone and their mom is going to hit the shiny windows button and have windows 10 within an hour of deciding to upgrade, then the kids will keep it for DX12. End of fucking story
>>53043543
are you retarded? it needs like fuckin 2% and it will probably get more
>>53044714
>Hitman
>Gears Ultimate + 4
>Deus Ex
this is the year of DX12
>>53027849
It's really stupid to use DX12 but I think it will still take a few years until Vulkan is the dominant graphics API even though it's better
>>53051246
It sounds like Hitman and Deus Ex will likely be getting Vulkan support with today's announcement about SquareEnix bringing games to Nvidia's Linux based streaming solution. I think a lot of companies right now are still using 'DirectX' as a shorthand for graphics feature level in general.
>>53037752
No, but DX puts the final level behind a paywall.
>>53044844
wanna know why they still target dx9? because it runs on more systems. vulkan runs on more systems than dx12 ever will
>>53047202
>dassault systemes
linux/vulkan version of solidworks when?
>>53035947
http://www.develop-online.net/news/nintendo-joins-vulkan-api-creator-khronos-group/0211566
What's this?
I was visiting Retroarch's website by chance to look for 3DS builds, and plastered all over their front page is Vulkan support. Apparently they've already finished adding it.
>>53054061
anyone can join Khronos if they wanted
>>53047753
Nintendo's issue is that they don't get multiplats.
They don't need to worry about their exclusives running off because their (important) exclusives are all first party anyways
>>53051228
>what is 32 bit
>>53028161
you're right. people will stay on windows 7 and 8 forever, no one will ever upgrade - ever.
Eventually everyone will move to Windows 10
If you look at steam hardware survey windows 10 is about to take to the top OS spot
>>53035041
the same exact thing can be said for DX12
When that gets optmized how will it compare to Vulkan ?
>>53055428
Not if you combine 32 bit and 64 bit.
>>53055472
lets not lump int plebs that can't even 8GB of ram with the rest of us
Strangely it won't be until Oct 2016 when sales of prebuilt computers with Win7 pro/ Win8 stop.
>>53055425
DEPRICATED GARBAGE YOU FUCKING MORON
literally NO ONE *should* be on it. Any pc with a cpu thats not x86_64 compatible is no longer in use and DEFINITELY isnt playing video games
>>53055953
By your own stats
>>53037653
Win 7 32 bit is 7.77% of steam users.
>>53056225
>my stats
now facts are biased
yes goyim, that 7% marketshare is totally going to keep windows 10 from dominating the market!
jesus christ, you could have even had the intellegence to decide to pick window 8 user base instead of 32 bit users?
newsflash: AAA next gen vulkan games wont run on 32 bit windows 7 either
fucking christ
>>53045837
>What kind of upgrade are you thinking off?
All they have to do is release DX12.1 with some critical feature or performance improvement but make it so only programs installed through the windows store can use it.
They want a monopoly on digital PC games so they can sell it as a service like XBL, DX12 and win10 store is how they will try to do it. They don't have much to lose if they ruin PC games in the process as it makes them no money at the moment.
Their strategy is blatantly obvious, they want games to be a subscription service they also want to force Azure into multiplayer and push devs towards completely cloud based games.
>>53056555
>but make it so only programs installed through the windows store can use it.
now THAT would drive people off the fucking wall
I'm already not going to get Gears if it isn't on steam
>>53057097
None of the new MS games will be on steam, they're so locked down it turns the pc into an xbone with a better gpu, there's no mods or basic graphic options.
>>53027849
I hope you're right. I've been using windows since 95. Windows 8 was complete shit. Windows 10 is complete shit.
Gaming is the only reason I still have to be on windows, and as soon as that changes I'll make a complete switch over to linux in a heartbeat.
>>53029266
>fork/rewrite OpenGL, while maintaining backwards compatibility
this kills the API
>>53029388
explain
